AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Chemman on March 14, 2020, 08:14:43 AM
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So I have a .32 and a .45 with Green Mountain barrels. Both are flintlocks I plan on using Graf and Son's black powder, 3F in the flash pan and as a charge. Have a pound of 4F which will be put in the flash pan from time to time. Shot the .32 the other day and second and 3rd ball was a bit difficult to get seated and they were a bit off the bull.
What is the best way to clear the barrel before loading the next shot?
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You'll get more than one answer on this. I think most threads have been called it "wiping" if you've searched or want to.
What I think is simplest and best is to load a SNUG combination such there is no residue build up. I learned it from Daryl Sapergia on this forum. This comes up over and over and over. There's a whole host of fellows who shoot that way-they regularly shoot many dozens of shots or all-day-long, without ever once "wiping/swabbing". As now I can.
There's another school of thought who refuses to push down such a snug load, for various reasons/notions, and they develop a schedule for their guns of wiping every x amount of shots.
And of course bench and competition shooters who cannot reload immediately (before fouling hardens) will wipe every shot for ultimate bore consistency.
If I were you I'd keep trying slighter thick patching until the wiping issue resolved itself. In 32 cal, a ball starter may not be needed at all.
Welcome to the forum and read around--there's LOTS of info here.
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Right Wade, I agree. I used to wipe between shots, as I was taught by a target shooter.
I read Daryl's tutorials (thank you Daryl) on not wiping and it made tons of sense to this engineer's brain. When you wipe, you push the grunge to the bottom of the bore. You then put the powder on top of that, and then the ball. When you fire, and wipe again, you drive more crud to the bottom of the bore.
When you use "wet patching" and no wiping, you put the powder in first with no wiping. Then the wet patch on the ball wipes the bore for you as it goes down. The crud goes on TOP of the powder, and get's blown out when the shot is fired. I also find the wet patch easier to push down the bore. I happen to use Hoppe's BP lube as it feels slipperiest to me when loading. Other lubes work great too.
I have had a lot less instances of delayed firing, or failure to fire with Daryl's method. I am not positive why, but I have suspicions.
Also, clean up is much easier. There is not a big blob of fire hardened crud stuck to the breech face. Additionally, if a person does not fully clean the bore, a thick plug of hardened crud stuck to the breech face can eventually build up to obscure the touch hole and stop firing altogether.
I converted to wet patching and haven't looked back. I hope this helps.
God Bless, Marc
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Wade is spot on.
My fouling issues out here in the bone-dry Mojave desert were pretty bad. I changed to using a tighter ball n’ patch combo and a wet spit patch and the issue is cured. It might seem counterintuitive, but a tight combo seems to scrub the bore as the shot is loaded and fired all by itself. And, in my case, the spit patch adds needed moisture and keeps the fouling soft so it can be shot away. It’s also very accurate.
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Marcruger summed it up very well. I'll just add that polishing the crown helps make seating tight loads easier. I also like Hoppes BP Lube but have the same success using TOW mink oil.
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Only thing I can add, is to reinforce what hanshi wrote on the crown.
Factory barrels have a machine-gun crown that has sharp corners. One on the ends of the lands and one in the bottoms of each groove.
Smoothing these into a smoothly rounded shape with a piece of Emery or wet/dry paper shoved into the muzzle with your thumb, then rotated a bunch of times, periodically rotating the rifle to get an even, symmetrical finish. This will allow the tighter patch and ball to conform into the bore. This will allow contined shooting with no need for wiping or swabbing the bore.
The crown's shape is paramount in loading tight combinations without damaging the patch
You should be able to re-use shot patches. We have done this a number of times, shooting just as tightly as when the patches were new.
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Time permitting I wipe between shots. At the range-always. Hunting after a shot-no. Jerry
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I'm different. I like to swab. I'd feel like I was skipping a step if I didn't do it.
I'm old and set in my ways. ;D
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Just don't know why anyone would want to spend more time swabbing, than shooting. I probably wouldn't do this if I had to burn up more cleaning patches than shooting patches.
Just me I guess.
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Just don't know why anyone would want to spend more time swabbing, than shooting. I probably wouldn't do this if I had to burn up more cleaning patches than shooting patches.
Just me I guess.
I'm a hunter, not a target shooter. Even when I practice it's my own version of a woods walk to simulate hunting.
I'm never so rushed that I don't have time to swab. That comes from being single and retired for 22 years. I don't consider swabbing a waste of time. I consider it part of being a muzzleloader hunter. I actually enjoy swabbing.
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I'm right there with you OldMtnMan.
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;D
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nope. shoot, powder, wool wad, minkoil patch, ball stuff...shoot...repeat
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i shoot .32 cal often and was swabbing about every 5 shot and ball was going down HARD with a lot of fouling. switched to a tighter .018 pillow ticking patch and started using Track Of The Wolfs "mink oil" all problems dissapperaed and do not swab AT ALL between shots. also tried bear grease with same affect.
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I use a tight ball/patch load and rarely see a need for wiping. I have fond going from 3F to 2F has helped a lot I suspect lower flame temperature less glazing or hard fowling. I know 2F is not recommended for a .32 however we have a local that does quite well in our local matches with such a combination. This gentleman uses 2F in everything including pistols. As always we just need to find what works for us.
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I thought I covered this. No, no and no. Shoot, blow down the barrel, powder, patch and ball (in that order), ram home, prime and shoot. no more no less.
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One thing to add is that the patched used to swab should not be super tight. IF it is it will push the fouling ahead of it and cause misfires. It should not be soaking wet either. My club requires swabbing between shots, "for safety reasons". I do it for bore consistency. I have found that a damp and loose fitting patch on a slotted jag works well. It slides down the bore easy but jams itself tighter on the return stroke. I put threads on both ends of my loading rods. On for the slotted jag and one for the regular jag that fits the ball contour.
Humidity seems to be factor on the need to swab between shots. My area is very dry. Fouling gets hard and builds up. Nothing, I have found, changes that. Even with loose loads and sloppy wet thick patches, fouling fills the chamber area fairly quickly.
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For me I almost always get more fouling with a lose load. When I use teflon patching I swab and it takes hardly any time at all to do it. When I shoot denim or drill and lube with mink oil./bear oil and a tight combo I don,t need to swab and the loading is always easy as is the clean up.
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The phrase "swab between shots" in the Search function at the top of the page gets 133 separate threads.
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Wow, 133 times. Must be a popular topic. The word redundant comes to mind. ::)
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My loading regimen is a spit patch between every shot with every gun. Works for me, I'm never in a big hurry.
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I thought I covered this. No, no and no. Shoot, blow down the barrel, powder, patch and ball (in that order), ram home, prime and shoot. no more no less.
Ah, short, to the point and absolutely valid. +1
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I wonder how much moisture is in one breath?
Can it really make an impact on powder fouling?
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I wonder how much moisture is in one breath?
Can it really make an impact on powder fouling?
I don’t know if it helps soften fowling but a breath is about 100% humidity.
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I wonder how much moisture is in one breath?
Can it really make an impact on powder fouling?
The surface area of the windows in your car are much bigger than the inside of a gun barrel... And they'll fog up pretty quick on a chilly evening... Especially if you have some company. ;)
I don't know the volume of my breath and how much water vapor is in each breath... But I do know the 42" barrel on my .45 Bedford only holds 4 oz. of tapwater. I would bet that a good huff and blow down the barrel introduces more humidity than you'd think. But that's purely conjecture.
Mike
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If it didn't work why do 99.5% of all suppository shooters do it? It works, go back up to my response, read it and follow it.
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I wonder how much moisture is in one breath?
Can it really make an impact on powder fouling?
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/146542/how-to-calculate-the-volume-of-water-in-a-certain-amount-of-air-given-the-relat
https://www.aqua-calc.com/calculate/volume-to-weight
http://convert-to.com/conversion/volume/convert-ml-to-drop.html
I get 0.6 drops of water in a 1 liter exhale.
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(https://i.ibb.co/Cvqcfmn/DSC03160.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5vd0PG5)
Mutton tallow no swabbing 100yrds from bench (2 high before regulating rear sight)
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Exactly, Recurve. When I could see, my .69 used to do that as well. 1" to 1 1/2" at 100 meters, no swabbing necessary.
But, like you, I used a decent ball and patch combination.
If you want to swab, or it is necessary due to time between shots, or your combination is so weak you have to, have at it.
Swabbing or wiping between shots is not necessary for achieving accuracy from your gun if you are shooting it right away
and using a decent ball and thick patch.
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Even if I didn't have to. I'd still do it.
Live and let live.
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I compete in many woods walks and grocery shoots. I shoot both flintlock and percussion rifle... when I compete with both I swab. I just do the exact same thing over and over again, being consistent in all I do, swab with a spray lube mix, once down and out, load the same and aim the same and things stay the same... at least for me they do. My 2 cents.. take it for what it’s worth!
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I thought I covered this. No, no and no. Shoot, blow down the barrel, powder, patch and ball (in that order), ram home, prime and shoot. no more no less.
Here in the east we use NMLRA safety rules a lot and is plainly stated NO blowing down barrels. I did see a guy who had lost his train of thought and started to blow down a loaded one though.
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We'll argue this until the second coming...
Simple solution: do it if you want. Don't if you don't want to.
Mike
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What's the argument. All I've ever said is, you don't have to if you don't want to.
Then, I've explained what you need to do if you don't want to.
That's all. I've also said if you want to anyway, have at it, it's a choice.
Many guys here have taken the suggestions and no longer have to wipe between
shots, or even after 20 shots as there is no buildup in fouling, shot to shot, or even
after 50 shots.
We have shot as many as just over 100 shots in a day without having to wipe, swab or
otherwise clean the bore. The loading is unchanged. The powder chamber area will
become smaller in diameter due to fouling there, but is never seems to make more than
1/4" difference in seating depth of the patched ball. The 100th shot was as accurate as
the second through to 99. Some of our guns do not need a 'fouling' shot to be fired before
scoring. Seems all of mine are that way, at this time, for close range shooting, out to 25 or
so yards. At 50 yards, there is a difference with the fouling shot going high in my .69. I
have not tested this at 50 yards in the .36 or .50. More experimentation, I guess.
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What's the argument. All I've ever said is, you don't have to if you don't want to.
Then, I've explained what you need to do if you don't want to.
That's all. I've also said if you want to anyway, have at it, it's a choice.
Many guys here have taken the suggestions and no longer have to wipe between
shots, or even after 20 shots as there is no buildup in fouling, shot to shot, or even
after 50 shots.
We have shot as many as just over 100 shots in a day without having to wipe, swab or
otherwise clean the bore. The loading is unchanged. The powder chamber area will
become smaller in diameter due to fouling there, but is never seems to make more than
1/4" difference in seating depth of the patched ball. The 100th shot was as accurate as
the second through to 99. Some of our guns do not need a 'fouling' shot to be fired before
scoring. Seems all of mine are that way, at this time, for close range shooting, out to 25 or
so yards. At 50 yards, there is a difference with the fouling shot going high in my .69. I
have not tested this at 50 yards in the .36 or .50. More experimentation, I guess.
LOL! I'm not arguing with you Daryl. I don't swab between shots either. I'm an adherent to your instruction on tight combinations.
But we have this discussion about once a month and there's always a percentage of folks who swab their bore between shots and won't be convinced otherwise.
Mike
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I came upon Daryl's method on my own, while making the transition from teflon coated patches to tightly woven cotton patching. I have found that I get the same accuracy as I did with the teflon patching. Also I don't use as many cleaning patches. Daryl of course is correct. Its your choice what you use, whatever makes your skirt fly.
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Sometimes I use Daryl’s system of not cleaning between shots, sometimes I always clean between shots. It depends on what I am trying to accomplish.
I am primarily a hunter, so the single shot I fire at game always comes out of a clean barrel. Since the POI changes somewhat after the first shot, when I am preparing for hunting I always clean between shots. If I am concentrating on my shooting form, I don’t clean between shots.
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To me this is a bench or match shooters question and that seems to be where folks fall on this. 75% of my guns get one or two shots per outing as I’m, like some of you, a hunter primarily. When I do load development on say a deer gun, I’m sighting in for the clean bore shot so I swab between each shot. Small caliber stuff gets one, two, or even three 5 shot strings before a single pass with a swab. I have no problem swabbing occasionally in the field. My hands are usually sweaty, dirty, and wet and I’m using the wiping stick on the gun and not a range rod so uber tight loads are often impractical for me. After a few shots at squirrels you’re moving or settling in for a while anyway. May as well wipe. That being said, having a big proponent of ‘no swabbing’ like Daryl around has made me reconsider some of my patch/ball combinations and go a bit tighter than I would normally feel comfortable doing. And that’s nothing but a good thing. I find though, for most of my applications, a delicate balance between tight combinations, and the inarguably tighter groups that results in, and ease of loading in the field, from the bag, is best for me. YMMV.
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I`m new here fist post, but has any body heard of seasoning a barrel ??? Seasoning keeps your fouling soft and most guns shoot better after they are a little dirty. Staying away from petroleum products and modern cleaning solutions which harden black powder residue, all natural, that`s what the old timers did. also keeps your bore from rusting in damp weather or can`t clean your gun right away. no need to wipe between shots!
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I`m new here fist post, but has any body heard of seasoning a barrel ??? Seasoning keeps your fouling soft and most guns shoot better after they are a little dirty. Staying away from petroleum products and modern cleaning solutions which harden black powder residue, all natural, that`s what the old timers did. also keeps your bore from rusting in damp weather or can`t clean your gun right away. no need to wipe between shots!
Welcome Allen!
Here's a good read on "seasoning" bores...
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=36278.0
Mike
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I`m new here fist post, but has any body heard of seasoning a barrel ??? Seasoning keeps your fouling soft and most guns shoot better after they are a little dirty. Staying away from petroleum products and modern cleaning solutions which harden black powder residue, all natural, that`s what the old timers did. also keeps your bore from rusting in damp weather or can`t clean your gun right away. no need to wipe between shots!
Old-timers weren't using the modern barrels we use now. TC started the expression seasoning a barrel to sell Bore Butter.
It's hogwash.
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T/C wasn`t the first to come out with all natural products to season your bbl, Ox yoke and others had it a long time before that. I was an advisor for T/C in the 90`s and they were not the first!!!
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Hogwash= Can`t teach old dog new trick! (original trick) some people still can`t get away from the mindset of shooting cartridge gun`s. Hi Mike and thanks for the welcome!!!
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What kind and how much experience/credentials would a fella have to have to get a job like advisor to one of those gun makers. I could use some supplemental income. ;)
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I ran the black powder dept. in one of the largest gun shops in the east, we were for years TC`s #1 dealer in the US. They would send their engineers to work with us on new products. It`s the shop where Turnbull Restoration came from. Not to brag , but also advised for Traditions and lyman. Thanks!
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I once guided a moose hunt for the owner of Connecticut Valley Arms. He wouldn't listen to a word of advice I had for him, let alone pay me for it.
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Me,I will listen to folks who put a whole lotta lead down field,eat,sleep and breathe this sport before listening to somebody who listens to their CFO(bean counter) first. Only time I ever had to run a douche rag down my barrel is when I'm burning $#@* powder and don't feel like putting a little effort into pushing a ball home.Second what Daryl said.......for the umpteenth time,LOL
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I came upon Daryl's method on my own, while making the transition from teflon coated patches to tightly woven cotton patching. I have found that I get the same accuracy as I did with the teflon patching. Also I don't use as many cleaning patches. Daryl of course is correct. Its your choice what you use, whatever makes your skirt fly.
Well, it's not my method, really. I read about it in Ned Robert's 1934 book, "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle". As Ned so aptly put, in the vernacular of the Duchman "Ven you loads der next shot, you cleans der last vun". I simply experimented to find out how to do that. It took a year or so, but the results have stayed with me for 47 years now.
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I once guided a moose hunt for the owner of Connecticut Valley Arms. He wouldn't listen to a word of advice I had for him, let alone pay me for it.
That's because what "we" had to say, had nothing to do with the Belt-Mountain jacketed bullets they were shooting in plastic sabots
in their production muzzleloaders.
Besides that, it was an archery hunt, no guns, but they did try to tell us, or persuade us that their jacketed bullets were best.
Perhaps they are saying the same thing, that we wouldn't listen to their advice, so freely given, as was ours.
At all other archery hunts I attended, ALL of the hunters in camp and all of the guides in camp shot our bows late morning and
early afternoon after lunch, keeping in tune.
None of that bunch would shoot with us - interesting.
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Welcome to ALR, allen. I hate to have to say it again but this "seasoning" myth is a load of $#@*. Proponents say it works just like "seasoning" your iron skillet; but barrels aren't make from cast iron! Anyway, this seasoning is supposed to form a crust on the surface of the skillet. Why would anyone want a crust forming inside a rifle bore? Such a crust would render the rifling worthless and prevent prb from being seated in the ever-shrinking bore. Better yet, clean down to the bare steel & use a rust preventative. Next time swab the bore dry, load with a snug, lubed prb over the polished muzzle crown and seat. Some lubes work better than others, of course, and barrels will tell you what they prefer. This approach will allow a day of shooting without wiping; and cleanup will be noticeably easier.
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Hi Hanshe and thanks for the welcome! I have to say that if you don`t want to season your bbl don`t and I don`t care who listens to who ! Seasoning a bbl is not a crust build up , its a chemical process of the natural grease filling the pours of the steel with with a natural barrier. created by heat and building over time. No one ever heard of a petroleum product for cleaning until after nitro cellulose came into use. A lot of history to argue with, but what the heck, some people know everything! Remember Joe what the old gunfighters used to say "Never saw the cemetery you built" Allen.
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I think a barrel can be seasoned. I've had a couple that I think were seasoned. Don't know for sure as seasoning was never my intent. I read the advertising concerning 1,000 shots without cleaning and decided to try some WL. I shot it as a patch lube for at least 2, maybe 3 years fulltime as a patch lube. So I had several hundred rounds down the barrel on each rifle I was shooting.
I couldn't really see any difference in my shooting but I started seeing it in my cleaning. It got where my patches were coming out with a ugly, thick, coating of brown stuff tinted green. It just wouldn't clean out using my regular cleaning regimins. For awhile I couldn't figure it out so I started writing down my process'ess, and finally saw the problem. I felt like something had changed but what? It was the lube. The WL was the only major change in my loading. When I clean a barrel I want it clean. I want to run a clean patch down the bore and have it come out clean when the barrel should be clean. I figure this coating is what is referred to as "Seasoning". I wanted it out. But nothing seemed to cut it until I wet a patch with brake cleaner. That got it out. Now my barrel gets clean again.
Thing is I still use WL as the lube in my deer loads. Mainly because if loaded on a fresh charge the WL lubed patch will not cause a rust ring in the chamber. I have tried numerous lubes but for my deer loads WL works best for me. Rifles are funny. My turkey rifle shoots super accurate with Canola oil as a patch lube and I use it because it doesn't cause that rust ring either. I'm not concerned about the WL seasoning in my barrels anymore because I know how to get it out. But if I require max. accuracy from either WL or Canola oil I wipe my barrels after a max. of 3 shots.
So after shooting it so long I would like to know the realistic benefits one can expect from seasoning a barrel.
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Allen,that wasn't a direct dig against you.We live in a money driven world,always have.I'm sometimes reminded of the snake oil salesmen of those days by todays gotta have this,gotta have that products..He would say his elixir would keep you out of that cemetery ;)
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I always use garlic to season my barrels. Keeps the vampires away.
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T/C wasn`t the first to come out with all natural products to season your bbl, Ox yoke and others had it a long time before that. I was an advisor for T/C in the 90`s and they were not the first!!!
I never said they were the first ones with a natural product. I said they started the expression "seasoning a barrel" to sell bore butter.
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Rosemary & Thyme
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Seasoning a barrel is something like breaking in boots to me. I just lace em up and head out.
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Rosemary & Thyme
I skip the parsley, but I do drag my gun through the sagebrush.
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I bought an old TC Hawken last year. Good shooter. Took me a month of shooting and cleaning to get the “seasoning” out of the bore.
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The metallurgist and chemist who shoot black powder have debunked "seasoning" over and again. Science is good stuff.
I season my potatoes and beans.
Bob, you strap on a new pair of Nick's or White's and head out and you'll be hurting for sure-they'll break your feet in. They are made of way stouter leather than most modern men are used to seeing in a boot. I've got 15 years on two pairs of them (multiple sole replacements) and just got a Third pair last year--still very stiff because I rarely wear the new ones. The logger/firefighter boots are way tougher than the USA-made Danners I was wearing (out) before them.
But quite true that what passes for boots for 97% of folks can simply be worn right out of the box--just like stretchy and pre-washed denims. ;D
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The metallurgist and chemist who shoot black powder have debunked "seasoning" over and again. Science is good stuff.
I season my potatoes and beans.
Bob, you strap on a new pair of Nick's or White's and head out and you'll be hurting for sure-they'll break your feet in. They are made of way stouter leather than most modern men are used to seeing in a boot. I've got 15 years on two pairs of them (multiple sole replacements) and just got a Third pair last year--still very stiff because I rarely wear the new ones. The logger/firefighter boots are way tougher than the USA-made Danners I was wearing (out) before them.
But quite true that what passes for boots for 97% of folks can simply be worn right out of the box--just like stretchy and pre-washed denims. ;D
Good haul on the Morels by the way. None here yet.
Yea, i was being a bit cheeky but I was visualizing actual boots when i said that, such as the petrified ones thrown at me at Boot Camp, with a 'what size you want Suzie?!" coming a second after I caught them..... They then marched us through two feet of water, and off on a 15 mile hump we went. That's old school. After that I could roll open chestnuts with my heel. As soon as I got out of the Corps I went and got a pedicure and walked out an inch and a half shorter... ;)
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But quite true that what passes for boots for 97% of folks can simply be worn right out of the box--just like stretchy and pre-washed denims. ;D
Those are my favourites, Wade. Stretchy and pre-washed. ;D
They fit THIS, much better than non-stretchy.
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Hey Wade, I think he was the scientist on Ancient Aliens with the funny hair that said Jesus came here in a flying saucer!.....oop`s forgot the religion thing! Sorry Allen. ( PS he used seasoning also)
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Bore butter and a Jesus joke. You're not out on a good start Allen.
You're probably a good guy. I'll assume it until you prove me wrong. Think before posting.
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Haven`t used bore butter in 20 years, I raise guinea hogs and use the rendered lard with bees wax, and no I`m a ..... Thanks!
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I ran the black powder dept. in one of the largest gun shops in the east, we were for years TC`s #1 dealer in the US. They would send their engineers to work with us on new products.
Ok.