AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: jdm on March 21, 2020, 12:55:48 AM
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This is a war of 1812 period Board of Ordnance trade gun . The hammer looks like a small weapon itself.I thought some of you might like to look at something different while we're grounded.
Dennis if this doesn't belong please delete.
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Great gun Jim ..Very cool frontier conversion,,,,,,,LP
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Very nice.
I see the Broad Arrow with a letter "D" in the butt. Is the other letter an "I" ?
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Louie, Thanks . The comb is cut down a little on one side .
WEstbury yes the letters are I D . Some were also marked B O and G R with the Broad Arrow in between the letters.
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Very, very cool. Is the lock dated?
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She’s a beaut Jim.
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Bob & Robert, Thanks! There is no date on the lock, it's pretty rusted up inside and out with a lot of old gunk. the fox in a circle is barely visible on the lock plate. The scales on the serpent side plate are full of old dirt, varnish ?
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Here is another one. It has the I/l\D brand in three places: Butt, wrist and forend. Board of Ordnance private proofs on barrel. Circle fox on barrel and lock, property mark under the pan. I/l\D is Indian Department of the British Army. These guns were supplied to His Majesty's Indian Allies, during the War of 1812 or shortly thereafter. They are very much the same as NW trade guns, but are government issue. Given where this Moxham surfaced, it had likely been supplied to Brant's Mohawks.
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HUDNUT--Thanks for the photos and additional historic info.
Bailey has Thomas Moxham listed as providing components as well as complete arms, including "1813 Indian Arms" Sept 1810 - Sept 1819 as well other dates up through 1837.
Very nice historic arm.
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Nifty, always loved branded guns. I need to do some branding in the future,.
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An example of other work by Wheeler. A set of Officer's pistols. As a tag; we should all be at the Baltimore Gun Show today!
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I acquired the Moxham in the early '70s. It had surfaced in Brant County Ontario.
Just as the Board of Ordnance had bought up India Pattern muskets from the contractors making them for the East India Company, they acquired these trade pattern guns for militia issue. Mechanically, the guns are like the ones made for the HBC - unbridled inside and out. NW Co. guns were superior, doubled bridled.
There are comparable pistols which were intended for militia issue. They look like standard 9" service arms, but are unbridled. Made by the trade gun contractors, and property marked. Almost invariably, there will be a Crown 39 inspector's stamp on the tang.
In SW Ontario, many (most) of the NW guns which I saw had the proof marks and property marks indicating government ownership. Trade gun pattern, but not actual fur trade guns. Actual HBC or NW Co. guns were very uncommon. All NW guns are quite rare. Survival rate was low. There are very few of the I/l\D branded guns.
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Hudnut & Bill Thank you posting additional pictures.
The Wheeler pistol's are screamers. What a grand lock.
To add little to what Hudnut posted. From what I've read the exact significance of the branding is unknown. It is thought they were likely put on guns provided to fur traders to help arm the Indian . The brands might discourage the chance of the guns ending up in commercial channels.
According to De Witt Bailey's list.
Thomas Moxham shipped 724 Board of Ordnance Indian guns between1813 & 1816.
wheeler & son Shipped 734 between 1813 & 1816.
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Just to add a bit more to this thread, below are some photos of another "Wheeler & Son" marked trade gun, without any Board of Ordnance markings. This gun has a serious wrist crack, but had been repaired at some point, and at least is now very stable. Note the trigger guard is of the same style of the one on JDM's example.
A sister of this gun is illustrated in Ryan Gale's book "For Trade and Treaty..." pages 73-78. Apparently Wheeler & Son had a contract with the North West Company.
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I just got out my copy of Hanson's Firearms of the Fur Trade, to have a look at the De Witt Bailey data on these contract guns.
Common guns (like the ones pictured), chief's guns, rifles and pistols were supplied. In another thread in this forum, there was discussion of a rather nice chief's gun which appeared in an Ontario auction. The survival rate of chief's guns seems to be greater than that of the common guns. They are stylish sporting guns, and I think that they were more appreciated at the time.
I can only recall seeing one rifle turn up, and that was in the '60s.. The pistols appear from time to time. Not unusual to see them in original flintlock. I suspect that they weren't as widely distributed, and survived as curios, being less useful than the long guns. Maybe they were held in stores unissued, and eventually sold off after the flint period had passed.
I assume that the I/l\D brand was to provide permanent and obvious identification and to discourage sale.
There was a write-up of the Tecumseh gun in Muzzle Blasts some years ago. Chap had made a replica. This gun was also branded, and was no doubt government supplied.
For militia/irregular use, I do not think that these guns were supplied only to Indians, but also to European settlers.
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The gun in the photos posted by Steve is similar to conventional NW guns, but has a round barrel and side plate not unlike issue pistols of the period.
I do not know the story behind these guns. They must have been distributed in some numbers, because there are survivors. Fifty odd years ago, we referred to them as "Wheeler variants".
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Almost 50 years ago, we placed this ad in Muzzle Blasts.
The gun we used in the photo was one of the Wheeler variants. We had the photo, and wanted to get the ad in publication, so we used it. In the ad, you cannot tell that it isn't a true NW gun. December '72.
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An example of other work by Wheeler. A set of Officer's pistols. As a tag; we should all be at the Baltimore Gun Show today!
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Bill.
I'd say you've got a different Wheeler here.....I think those pistols were made by Oliver Wheeler,an Irish gunmaker with various addresses in Dublin and Kilkenny between about 1770 and 1804....A very similar pair sold sold at auction in the UK a few years back.You can see a few differences but you'd have to think they were made by the same guy. The chequered bag shaped butts are pretty distinctive.
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My Wheeler pistol set are marked London on the top of the barrels.
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Just to throw a little historic prospective about these Board of Ordnance guns. " The British set up a base a Fort Amhersburg , ( Fort Malden )on the Canadian side of the Detroit River in 1808 & issued arms from there to the American Indians.
In 1811 Gen. William Henry Harrison reported " within the last three months the whole of the Indians on the frontier have been completely armed and equipped out of the King's stores at Malden.
. I dug this out of the Museum of the Fur Trade book.
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Since I am on lock down in Missouri i took a few photos of this early Wheeler Northwest trade gun... Thought someone who is bored might like to see it.. You can see how the style had changed on the eighteen hundred period guns,, I would assume for added strength.
I believe Wheeler died in 1784. I don't know when to company changed the name to Wheeler and Son.. Would be interested if you know....LP
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LP,
In DeWitt Bailey's "British Board of Ordnance Small Arms Contractors, 1689-1840", he cites Robert Wheeler (junior), Birmingham, 1797-1808.
Became "Wheeler & Son" in 1808 in which they had contracts for various arms from 1808 to 1835-37.
Not sure when Wheeler died.
Also, nice gun. Looks to be in nice condition.
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Those be some cool hardware! Thanks for sharing gents.
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Louie. Wheeler replaced Wilson as the British Board of Trade's supplier in the 1790's. I believe it became Wheeler & son in 1813.
That is a spectacular example you have. Thanks for posting pictures. What a great piece with wonderful color.
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Jim - Louie - Bill,
Great guns - thanks for sharing.
Buck
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I've been really enjoying this thread! Many thanks to all for posting these nice pictures and info.
Have had an interest in NW Trade guns for some years and just from studying these pictures, many questions I have had are answered!
Nicely inletted dragon sideplates!
I have NW sideplate that was found by a school teacher who was doing some metal detecting with her class several years ago in an early settlement near Northport Michigan. The scales and much of the serpents form look a lot like the plate from Louis example.
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Steve and JDM thanks for the information.....LP
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Louie , Jim Gordon has one very similar to yours he dates around 1808- 1812.
Hudnut, Do you have any more pictures of yours? I would love to see them .
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JDM Hansons book The Northwest Gun calls it a model 1790...I don't have a clue...LP
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jdm - I'll take some.
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"The Art of the English Trade Gun in North America" by Nathan E. Bender, I think a 2018 publication, paperback, can't remember the price but wasn't a deal breaker. A good addition to your library if you have any interest in these or not!
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JDM I went back to Hanson's book and did a bit of checking to see how he identified these as a 1790 model. He says the trigger guards with the long finials that taper to a point are 1790..Shows a photo on this same guard.. I will try to post a photo later today. Could you see the guard on Jim''s gun ?......LP
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I got a call from a good friend about this thread...He has the new Hanson book. Unless I misread the old information which is certainly possible, new information has been found that contradicts the old. So I am just more than a little bit confused and have no idea what I am talking about....Sorry about that.... LP
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Louie
I'm guessing the model 1790 came from Wheeler taking over the contracts in the 1790's . I misspoke on the date of the one in Jim Gordon's collection He thinks it dates from 1798 -1805. No picture of the bottom of the guard.
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Question re dating British flint trade gun view & proof marks : 1) downward facing broad arrow surmounted by GR, surmounted by crown and 2) closer to breech, crossed sceptres surmounted by crown....pre 1813? Your thoughts & comments, please.
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Hello...I am new to the forum and wanted to see if you guys could check your reference books regarding this WHEELER & SON NORTH WEST TRADE GUN...I am curious to know the date that it was made...I am guessing between 1813 and 1821? Also does your books state that these were traded and used by the Natives or just fur traders? There are no military markings on it..I am looking for an example that would have been used by the Natives in the War of 1812 and unsure if this one would fit my goal. I should mention it has a 37 inch barrel.
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Huron,
Welcome to the ALR Forum. Very nice example of an early 19th century trade gun.
In Ryan Gale's book "For Trade and Treaty", there is a Wheeler & Son marked trade gun, pages 73-78 very similar in style as yours. Gale dates this example ca. 1814-1819, so you are pretty close with your assessment of dates.
Thanks for posting.
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I understand that Natives preferred a serpent side plate...I also understand Wheeler used old military hardware when making these....so I am unsure about the use of these by indians...have you read any accounts of them using this style?
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Encyclopedia of Trade Goods (Hanson and Harmon 2011) has a similar trade gun on page 231. Shares the same style sideplate, round barrel, and buttplate. But, lock is a little different and it does not have a rear sight like yours does. They say "The last flintlock model of British common gun for Indians, made by Robert Wheeler & Sons in the 1820s-30s. It has military style butt plate, side plate, butt stock, and a round barrel. The only North West gun features are the lock, binding strip at the muzzle, ramrod guides, and trigger guard. It has a 36 inch barrel, .65 caliber, and weighs 6 pounds."
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Can anyone tell me how long Wheeler and Son had a contract with the Northwest Trading company/HBC or even if he continued it after HBC took over in 1821 and did the North West Trading Company continue to use their logo after 1821 when HBC bought them out?
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Thanks Robert..if anyone else has information regarding this style of trade musket please add what you know...as Robert has mentioned they are saying this musket dates to around 1820-1830...I feel like it dates earlier than this...1813/14 to 1821...any input would be greatly appreciated...I have no books as of yet and will be buying some..but in the mean time I'm hoping some of you guys with the library or knowledge could add to this discussion.