AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Mdlock on April 04, 2020, 07:07:12 AM
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Help identify I found a mark it has a Joseph Golcher lock
(https://i.ibb.co/wW4zgW5/Screenshot-20200403-231918-Gallery.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2tdkhtG)
(https://i.ibb.co/MZfgvNs/15859731537087880597962482442274.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6r8yMsm)
(https://i.ibb.co/7tfXYT4/15859732040413326138625367865178.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3m37r8z)
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If your rifle has a maker's initials or name on the barrel, you will find it several inches behind the rear sight on the top barrel flat. If there is something there and you can't read it, post a picture and we can probably help you. The name can be either engraved, or stamped, into the barrel iron. The fine marks you see immediately behind the rear sight appear to be old file marks that have been worn down. Shelby Gallien
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That is what the top pic is the mark is worn but someone should be able to identify.
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mdock I will offer a guess.. Those are punch marks to swell or tighten the rear sight..LP
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Probably seeing things but it looks like 3 lines of script on the barrel
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Mdock now I see what Shelby was referring to. Possible script ?? Only way I know to tell would involve a light cleaning of the barrel leaving the color in the lower cut area..Would destroy the finish with not a great chance f success.
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Take a few more photos of that area with a low raking light. What is possibly there is being washed out by the direct on light glare.
Ron
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I highly doubt a PA rifle maker is going to engrave 3 lines of tiny script ACROSS his barrel just below the sight. If you are going to analyze those scratches, you might as well analyze the similar line of scratches running between the two round punch marks on the base of the sight. Shelby Gallien
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I'm with Shelby on this one. Scratches. It might be helpful , if you are trying to identify the maker to show clear pictures of both sides of the rifle from just in front of the lock back.
Sorry, I just saw this rifle was discussed on another thread.
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There is definitely something there in fancy script. It's going to take a microscope to make it out though.
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I put the pic in lightroom and photoshop and couldn't pull any more info out of it. A pic with cross light would help. What are the marks/script, 1/8" tall? It seems most likely scratches or a stamp if that small.
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I can imagine that being the results of a bloody finger print from long ago. Seems to be on the sight and barrel at a spot near where some guns balance.
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I will get it down and take several pics and post best one was thinking of rubbing pencil on a piece of paper over it too. It's not like I dont have the time. Right?
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Definitely appears to be 3 lines of script on my 24" monitor. The top line appears to end in d l and perhaps e.
Enlarging it does not help much. You (I) can click on it twice for enlargements.
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I agree with Shelby. It would appear to have 3 lines of script, but if you compare it to the sight - I don't think so.
J.M.H.O.
Buck
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It's instructions on how to adjust the sight! ;D
John
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It's instructions on how to adjust the sight! ;D
John
That is a good one, I like that.
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You might try dusting it with talc/chalk; wipe gently.
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Enlarged the picture.
Appears on the left just below the sight 1885 or 1888. Some other what appears to be engraving.
To bring it out you could also get some White Out, from office supply store. It comes of easy with WD-40 or alcohol
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John - always entertaining :)
Buck
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I'm trying hopefully this helps a little
(https://i.ibb.co/R9gdLjS/20200405-150123.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g3rhs47)
(https://i.ibb.co/zSm0XLL/20200405-145928.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9qpCbff)
(https://i.ibb.co/jLDvx89/20200405-145919.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y8qnMNm)
(https://i.ibb.co/4VbG6cP/20200405-145912.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z43Yy1G)
(https://i.ibb.co/gR1WyVh/20200405-145853.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nL21rCt)
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there is something there, but short of taking it to the FBI firearms test lab you'll probably never find out what it says.
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I don't want to be a spoil sport, but those marks look an awful lot like the file marks on the sight base.
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Take a piece of copper & lightly rub the area. This should give you a idea if it is engraved or file marks. Rub the area lightly. Good luck.
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I will do it tonight. Lightly.
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Here we go.
Is there a Witherspoon maker. Looking under loop I almost swear it looks like it fits on bottom line. Still cant tell though.
(https://i.ibb.co/0cT7tcT/Closeup1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vHpFYHp)
(https://i.ibb.co/RTwzpTP/Closeup2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QvwrFvn)
(https://i.ibb.co/Wf3kfWB/Closeup3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5L9rLWs)
(https://i.ibb.co/DtWxzVK/Closeupred.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9NgFc8Y)
(https://i.ibb.co/Lh6Y9dZ/Withcopperrub.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x8GXzq7)
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It "looks" to me as if the sight is a replacement and the striations are from removing the original sight and putting in a new one.
The sight notch does not "appear" to be on the centerline of the barrel.
Photos can be distorted because of the curve of the lens.
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I dont think it was replaced but if it is script writing it would be really small. I have searched all over for any other marks only the lock I found one.
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Mdlock - I think it's safe to say they're file marks. Still a nice gun.
Buck
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I can’t imagine how you could engrave cursive script at 20 letters to a half inch. It does look like that’s what it is though.
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I rotated the photo and removed the color, as black and white photos usually show more detail. If you look closely, it appears as the lines are not uniform in width or depth. I'm about as far from an expert on engraving as you can get, but I would think that anyone who could engrave fine cursive letters would have a tool that would be capable of producing more uniformity.
(https://i.ibb.co/PCy92St/Closeup3-A-edited-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KygLt1m)
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If these were just file marks there would not be 3 distinct lines equally spaced apart. I have studied a lot of engraving and how letters are formed by a series of specific graver cuts. Due to the line spacing and spacing of the heavy cuts used to form each letter I do believe this to be engraving. Yes it is in a very unusual location but non the less it is not random file marks. Can I tell you what it says, nope. I will try to see if I can put my theory in action.
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Probably says: "Blackpowder only. Antonio Zoli." ;D ;D
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It gives the precise location of the Oak Island treasure. Sell it to the TV show “The Curse of Oak Island”. I’m sure they will make a connection.
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Well, I wonder, given that the 'lines' all seem to be slanting in a similar direction, that there was a glare or shinny spot on the barrel just at this spot, that made it difficult to see the notch in the rear sight.
These lines, at an angle, then with a little corrosion in them, would kill the bright spot.
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Now that we have better pics, I'm going with the naysayers.
The lines matching the file marks on the upset bit of barrel-which very much look like file marks is what puts me off the engraving notion. Who would put fine engraving next to file-marks and also line their letters up exactly to match? That there are zero horizontal elements but the one (file) mark that runs all the way across. How would a filer line up his file marks with engraving, if one says the sight work came after the "engraving"?
Would a gun have engraving at one odd place and no where else?
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If the barrel was locked tight in a vice, could the teeth of the vice leave these marks on the barrel?
Michael
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Okay, I promise that this is my last shot at this.
I inserted two rectangles into the photo. I lined the gold color one on the right side of the bottom line of marks and the blue color rectangle on the left side of the bottom line of marks.
As you can see, at least for the bottom line of marks, they are not even close to being in line, left to right.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to prepare myself to watch tonight's episode of The Curse of Oak Island. ;D
(https://i.ibb.co/vj1Fszp/Screenshot-319.png) (https://ibb.co/gRy2vgN)
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I'm more confused than ever. Having it in my hands it seems that all if writing most letters seem to be connected by curved lines.
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I found these I only say because it looks like it and has a W and is a long word.
Title
Long rifle
Subject
American long rifles; Kentucky rifle; Firearms; Long guns; Worthington, Thomas, 1773-1827
(https://i.ibb.co/4Wz9NjV/default.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zd5tThM)
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I'm more confused than ever. Having it in my hands it seems that all if writing most letters seem to be connected by curved lines.
I see no curved lines.
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I see curves and those lines are not inline with site. I can see that without my glasses. Who sees curves? I do..
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I give up it really will always be a mystery. I can see it both ways as file Mark's and as script. Like I said before its awful small script if it is.
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Some times we see what we want to see. If that is writing then it must of been put on by a watch maker.
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Some times we see what we want to see
I see that we are back to Oak Island! ;)
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This rear sight slot appears to be have a 'pinned/riveted' piece in place, perhaps to remedy a persistently bothersome or loose rear sight, or a slot too long for the sight. It takes an extra set of hands to do that and if you're working by yourself, you would call on your old friend 'Mr. Vise' to help out.
I don't believe those are file marks, or teensy-weensy, itty-bitty lines of script, but rather display the pattern consistency of the facings of a vise tightened on soft iron/metal, perhaps to crush the pin/rivet heads.
Regardless, this rear sight/slot was repaired and tools had to be used to accomplish that. Maybe the customer who brought the rifle in for repair was too cheap to spring for an brand new rear sight?
[These marks remind of a lady at my church who had a little brown calf as a pet when she was a child, that one day disappeared and was never, ever seen again. 75 years later she was still wondering, asking and looking for a answer. One day I just had to break it to her that her father had sold it to some nice Italian people down the road, who owned a restaurant and her pet, the little brown calf that followed her around, was a house specialty. The shock was therapeutic and eventually, she did recover... The End]
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It would be interesting to dismount the barrel to see if there are vise jaw marks on the opposite barrel flat. I agree with COLLECTOR, the rear sight has either been repaired or replaced.
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How difficult would that be? Could I damage it in doing so? Maybe marked somewhere not visible.
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Mdlock---I've "field stripped" hundreds of military muskets, rifle muskets, and rifles but never one of my longrifles. Longrifles are a little more delicate, military arms are like tanks.
My method for taking apart a musket is:
1--Remove ramrod.
2--Loosen the barrel tang screw one full turn.
3--Put the lock on half-cock if the arm is percussion.
4--Loosen the front and rear lock screws making sure the lock side of the arms is supported in case the lock falls out. Do not pry the lock out with a screwdriver.
5--If the lock does not come out easily, put the lock screws back in their respective holes and lightly tap each one alternatively until the lock comes out.
6--Remove the barrel bands.
7--Remove the barrel tang screw.
8--Carefully remove the barrel by lifting it slightly at the muzzle and pulling it forward until the breech plug tang clears its mortice, then lift it straight out of the stock barrel channel.
The important thing is to FULLY SUPPORT support the musket DURING EACH STEP.
Perhaps some of the experienced longrifle guys on the forum can provide some guidance for you.
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Sounds like it could hurt more than help. Any other suggestions? I would guess that this was converted to percussion. Isnt that most likely?
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It's difficult to see with your photos if it was originally a flintlock rifle. Doesn't matter however if it was or was not originally flint, it is percussion now.
Whether or not you disassemble the rifle is 100% your call. None of the fine people on the forum would have it any other way.
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Nice rifle; thank you for bringing it here to be commented on, and admired. I would strongly suggest that you give us some better photographs of the full length, half views and detail images such that the folks here can make some valid observations on the rifle. The two dark, dark photos do not flatter your gun.
You have provided a number of microphotographs of some barrel marks that cannot be deciphered and may be nothing but file marks, when shots of the lock, box, breech, trigger guard and other details might help equally well, or better, in your search for information. Removing the barrel might reveal some marks on the lower flats, but that is not guaranteed. Some here would consider that three pages of pure speculation is useless and has been a waste of your time.
Dick
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I don't want to be a spoil sport, but those marks look an awful lot like the file marks on the sight base.
They do and are the same angle. They even get shorter at the bottom , which makes them correspond with how the file would be applied.
But they also look like script some.
Of course I see signatures on rust scale on some of my rifles. :D
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Nice rifle; thank you for bringing it here to be commented on, and admired. I would strongly suggest that you give us some better photographs of the full length, half views and detail images such that the folks here can make some valid observations on the rifle. The two dark, dark photos do not flatter your gun.
You have provided a number of microphotographs of some barrel marks that cannot be deciphered and may be nothing but file marks, when shots of the lock, box, breech, trigger guard and other details might help equally well, or better, in your search for information. Removing the barrel might reveal some marks on the lower flats, but that is not guaranteed. Some here would consider that three pages of pure speculation is useless and has been a waste of your time.
Dick
Dick is right, photos of the whole thing might get you some expert opinions on who/where it was made and that might lead to other guns by same hands or who knows what else information. Thanks
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What I was hoping for and I thought a forum is to discuss different hypotheses. That fact is I was hoping that so.eone had seen the mark and possibly recognized what the script was. So sorry if it annoys some people that there are 3 pages. Dont click on it. I dont need you telling me I wasting my time. Right now I currently have plenty of it. That post almost made me not want to visit this site again. But luckily there are others worth hearing and that too think that is what forums are for. Ok Dick?
Sincerely,
Lewis
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I have other photos in my other post if some of you might like to see.
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Hey Lewis, sorry to have hurt your feelings over my comments. I, like many others here really want to help you, but on the basis of facts presented, there really isn't much more we can do. I think that so many here tried to give you their best analyses. Personally, I do not see any discernible writing on the sight area and I didn't comment. The fact that three pages have been taken up with comments on your behalf should show that folks are trying to answer your inquiry. My thinking remains that it would be best for you to post some good photos of the entire rifle and its details, so that viewers can make an informed observation. With photos some facts may come forward to help form the answers that you are seeking. I, for one would like to see the rest of what appears to be a fine rifle.
Dick
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I tend to stay outa these type discussions as I don't know $#@* about identifying these old shooters.Reading this thread and looking over evidence presented,appears to be file marks.Appears being the key,is it plausible its scrip,perhaps.Whats leading me away from the script is that those boxes squared up to the sight, barrel show if it was script its way off.IMHO,nobody would write, scribe,what ever with so many straight edges around to keep you honest.Some mysterys are never solved.....
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This is beginning to bring to mind Bret Hart's immortal poem "The Society Upon the Stanislow". Google the title for a humorous break.
Bob D
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I have other photos in my other post if some of you might like to see.
Lewis--- Take a look at my December 14th posting which includes photos of one of my longrifles. These are the types of photos that will allow some of the more experienced members (which does not include me) of this forum to possibly identify the maker of this rifle and area of the country where it was built. If the maker of this rifle can be identified, it may be possible to determine how that maker marked his rifles.
None of the photos you have posted thus far, are helpful for gunsmith identification.
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I think there were pictures of this rifle posted sometime back. Not a 100% on that .
Remember we are talking about an area of maybe a fourth of an inch where these marks are. Hard to engrave easy to scratch.
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Jim--You are 100% correct. I found them, posted on NOV 15 2019 by Mdlock.
Date corrected, sorry.
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I just sat here and typed a long response just like a lot of people are doing. If you looked at post you will see where it changed to how to dismantle the rifle. I had someone to suggest it and just before that I had given up on the script part. I know it is most likely file Mark's due to the simple fact it was so small and I had mentioned that was hoping someone had the same rifle and it was not rusted away. I have come to the conclusion that nobody read my last post before Dick slapped my hand for wasting his time. Dont click on the thing that says I found a mark. Wow problem solved now go look for something else that interest you other than arguing with me. Ok others so concerned about Lewis responding. Lewis has responded now hopefully you read the part like where the conversation changed. Grow up. I appreciate any info I get from this site. It has always been a pleasure to visit and see the comments. But when they go and say I'm wasting my time I dont see that as anyone's business but my own. I will tell you if I think I am wasting my time. And if I'm wasting my time than what are you doing? W is it worth it.
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Ok enough I am locking this topic. I also removed some of the morning replies that were not welcome on this forum. Try to control your temper's. Go outside and kick a few trees and see if that helps!
Dennis