AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: k gahagan on May 14, 2020, 05:56:39 PM
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This gun is one that Ian Prat and I worked on together starting at our gun making class at Canter's cave in January. We had a couple of goals one was to create something totally original but firmly based in tradition, and also to combine both brass and wrought iron in nearly all the components to play off of each other and add some interest. Heres what we came up with.
(https://i.ibb.co/Ph3WVh4/DSC05966.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C7N9S7v)
(https://i.ibb.co/jGcYpyF/DSC05887.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wC9qvS1)
(https://i.ibb.co/2dbzNpb/DSC05941.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qpZH52Z)
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image hosting (https://imgbb.com/)
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(https://i.ibb.co/KKWYdDd/DSC05915.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3Rcw2v2)
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WOW...!!!
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Love the blending of the brass and iron without it being over done...just nice touches here and there. That’s a remarkable gun with a lot of details to make it interesting to look at.
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Wow is right. The two of you have blown me away the last three you have done together. The iron and brass with that brass name plate..... Wire work around the patchbox..... I need a nap and a cigarette....
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Fantastic work. I think the collaboration thing is working for you guys.
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Weeeeeeee doggie! I do like that. The details are fascinating. I love that patchbox, and the "bubble" engraving on the cheek inlays. I also like the wire line that follows the contour of the patchbox. Great finishes as well. I appreciate your sharing this with us Ken. God Bless, Marc
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@!*%!
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Thanks everyone and Tim I can only hope that's a good thing
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I like the way the barrel signatures are done. Ken and Ian couldn't agree on who's name went first so they came up with an innovative solution!
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And, there's even artwork to be found where least expected - on the underside of the patchbox lid at the hinge... a nice touch.
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You guys hit a home run with that one, a Grand Slam Home Run! :)
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Oh my, My O my! This is exactly the gun I envision wanting built in .40 calibre! Enamoured with a step wrist/toe rifle with that touch of iron. Splendid build men.
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SO COOL! love it don't ever break up!
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Well done but NOT overdone ;D
Bob Roller
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Looks very honest and believable to me I really like it!
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Thanks again everyone and Bob that was the plan, glad it might have worked
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Holy Moly
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Truly amazing work! You guys make a great team!
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Nifty.
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Great workmanship. A really great artistic statement. The brass to iron fits are amazing.
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Fantastic work by two of my favorite artists. I love everything about it.
Bob
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Great team! Top shelf in every way!
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SUPER C O O L colaberation!
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Thanks everyone and Tim I can only hope that's a good thing
You Bet it is. Let's say it is an extreme exclamation. TC
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thanks again everyone and Tim I was hanging on the edge with that one glad it turned out well
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Very neat rifle lads! It's obvious that you two are on the same page. I would have liked another two inches in the lower forearm (lock to entry pipe) but that's just me. I'll bet that rifle feels good to the shoulder....
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I just don’t have the words...suffice to say I like it...LOTS!
Can’t wait to see this one in person in Lexington...October, hurry up!
Greg
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Absolutely fabulous you two! I just have to ask you both, Ken and Ian, just what secrets you guys share to work so well together?
I know artists like musicians work along side each other to create awesome sounds. I guess I will call you guys a "super group" ;D
I know each of you have a lot of skills and talents individually from seeing your fine work's over the years. I'd love to know how you both went about building this very fine longrifle?
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Thanks Taylor, Greg and Joel. Couple of things about the build. Taylor your right the forearm is very short. I had built a copy of the rifle attributed to Wm. Antes the Moravian builder and had that in class were we started this gun. Since Ian and I wanted the gun to have an early Germanic feel with the wider butt stepped wrist etc. we used this gun for the starting point. The other things that are a little different are how low the comb to wrist is and the short forearm. It looks a little odd at first but what we like about it is that at it's end is the perfect balance point and especially since we put a little swell on the sides it feels really comfortable to handle. The other thing I like about it is it tends to streamline the whole gun and make it appear longer than it is. Obviously this as you said is a matter of personal opinion. Joel, I guess you would say we have a rather loose way of working on these guns. There was no thought out master plan at all just talking about various options when we were together in class and then working on them individually at home hopefully building apon what the other had done. We did however agree we wanted something original but based on tradtion and we wanted to work in brass to play off the wrought iron on most of the elements to add some contrast and interest. In class Ian forged the wrought iron buttplate and I believe started on the trigger guard as hardware making demonstration. I was demontrating making the iron pipes so we used those on the build. I think I cut out the sideplate and Ian filed it to shape. Same with the trigger. We were able to pass it back and forth during the two weeks as time permitted to start on the shaping. I'm pretty sure that's about as much as we could get done at the class. Ian took it home and finished the shaping, made a iron nose cap, trigger plate, trigger guard forging and filing, cleaning up the buttplate, handmade and installed the sites and tuned the lock. It was barely functional to begin with now it's a mean killing machine. Now he claims he made a ramrod as well and sent it along but none was to be found so I had to labor over another rod. I could be forgetting something but after these operations he mailed it to me to work on. I did some minor work on the wrought iron hardware like adding the file work and details at the top of the buttplate including the brass lines, triggerguard I added the brass work not much else Ian had it inlet already. From there I started to add the brass inlays. I wanted something different but also something that might have been even if we haven't seen it. I choose to utilize brass backplates or escutcheons that were prevalent on early american William and Mary furniture. These pieces were about the right size and had the look I was after reminding me of the Moravian star type inlays. It kind of grew from there. I made another one cut it in half and used that on the comb in front of the buttplate and with the remaining piece I added that to the inlet pipe as an extension. I made the cheekpiece plate to acentuate the cheekpiece escutcheon. I was really worried about overdoing it so the only other thing in brass that I did was to outline the wonderful box Ian had made in brass wire. From there I did all the carving and molding and proceeded to the finish and aging. Great fun we each have freedom to do or change anything we want. Well this is probably way more information than anyone wanted to read. I'm going to go make dinner now.
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Ken you and Ian hit a homerun with this rifle. Super nice, lots to see and appreciate. Look forward to seeing it in October if the world is normal by then. Thanks for sharing it. Tim
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I enjoyed seeing these pictures, however nothing that Ken has said here is true. In particular, the part about the ramrod is a total fabrication. His neighbor called me a couple weeks ago and told me he watched Ken take the ramrod I had made and threw it into the road then backed his car over it so many times that all his tires went flat from splinters.So there's one secret.
Another is that the short forend was an accident. He and I had got in an argument in front of the whole class about which NBA player would probably be the best gunmaker. A little later I was outside using the bandsaw and he suddenly came up behind me swinging that gunstock at my head. Luckily I caught his reflection in the classroom window and when I ducked, the forend went right into the spinning bandsaw blade and we lost a few inches. William Antes my a##.
I could go on for hours here but let me just sum up - Ken did an incredible job with the finish and decorative work, like nothing I ever saw, but working with him was like eating a big handful of broken glass - horribly painful both coming and going. Don't t even know if that makes sense, don't care.
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man, where's a moderator when you need one!
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Joe Seabolt and I worked on a gun mounting with Pratt and Gahagan. They like to start with a wrought iron bridge piling and hammer down from there. I don't think Joe has gotten over it yet. Ian Pratt is one of the most honest men I know.
Ken, I enjoyed the explanation.
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This thread just keeps getting better..... 😁
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We're all friends here, just trying to make sure the truth prevails. Anybody interested in seeing some of the "in progress" photos? Ken and I both took quite a few for our customer
Heinz, you got no sense of taper buddy
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man, where's a moderator when you need one!
At 2150 probably in bed. TC
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We're all friends here, just trying to make sure the truth prevails. Anybody interested in seeing some of the "in progress" photos? Ken and I both took quite a few for our customer
Heinz, you got no sense of taper buddy
I’d love to see some build pics of the gun. Thanks Ian.
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Man...Oh man....why can’t
I think of words except
Man...oh man.
That’s fantastic!
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Man...Oh man....why can’t
I think of words except
Man...oh man.
That’s fantastic!
That's why I said, Danm! TC
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;D Thanks Ken & Ian for all the low down! I did compare you two to musicians and as everyone knows...
Simon rarely ever talks to Garfunkel these days! :o ;D
I would also enjoy seeing pics of your work in progress!
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Ken, I would love to see some of photos your Wm. Antes rifle or a link to it if it has already been posted. I would also like to see build photos of this rifle. It is absolutely beautiful by the way!
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Hello Mark, I've made two copies of the Wm. Antes rifle one in 2015 and the second one in 2016. I really like the simplicity of this gun and the great early German architecture. This is the gun that has the two walnut strips added to the underside of the butt and cheekpiece. Why walnut when the gun is stocked in maole is an interesting question. This gun is aged quite heavily to replicate the original. Ian and I thought this would be a good starting point
(https://i.ibb.co/QbdY8f8/DSC04285.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TvLPKkK)
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Been enjoying going back through the string of text messages between Ken and I while we were working on the rifle. Most of it reads like my previous post, but what is interesting is seeing how we worked together sharing opinions and developing ideas. I also found a photo that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that I did in fact make a ramrod for the gun, more on that later.
These first 2 photos show Ken making pipes as a demo
in class. I unfortunately don't have many pictures of the rifle being started as we were pretty busy.
(https://i.ibb.co/fMmvKTH/698-B7-EE8-DA59-4521-A49-A-66639-A702-EA9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/31tz8Pc)
(https://i.ibb.co/ts86jKD/5-B80-A39-F-FBEE-4-E77-9-FBE-D42-CAB1148-EA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pzJTVwd)
This happened one night. Ken had been building a compost heap of uneaten fruit
on the corner of his bench and one of the students decided to deal with it in a creative way
(https://i.ibb.co/NCBZt2n/3-CF3526-F-B9-B6-42-BA-85-E5-E011-DD0-E7025.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h9zDLF1)
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I took a few shots while working on it after it came to my shop. Here I had finished shaping the stock and was designing and building a patchbox pretty loosely based on some originals. Don't have pictures of spring making but it happened, and made a brass button to top the release spring.
(https://i.ibb.co/t28k4rb/7348-AEB4-7-A85-4748-BE22-643-BA96-E8047.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wzgq6Jc)
(https://i.ibb.co/L9kzRBD/D62-BA636-3224-426-E-BCC3-483-E15-C851-DA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CV1584p)
(https://i.ibb.co/rvbwHfh/B331-E8-CD-2423-441-B-AE2-E-951-C5-B63-A248.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XVyCtkP)
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A little toeplate I nicknamed "The Sentry". Told Ken it was one of a series of named toeplates I was planning to have stamped out of sheet metal and try to sell them on ALR. He seemed unimpressed.
(https://i.ibb.co/LtNstmb/F4-BF1573-D485-43-A3-8420-375-D879-BA766.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2tZptxm)
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Filing out the forged guard and photos showing it mounted up. I think Ken made the trigger in class and I made the plate here. One of us sawed out a sideplate, I inlet it as a class demo then contoured beveled it here.
(https://i.ibb.co/2FyB0t1/2-AA24087-B912-43-E7-A6-CD-500-E72-B20-E44.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Twk5D8x)
(https://i.ibb.co/JCttR6R/D8029278-113-E-4-E84-8-A53-99-AB65-BF7508.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wYggNGN)
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I made the sights for it but no
photo - the rear sight continued the mixed metal theme with a brass base and iron leaf. You'll just have to imagine it. Sorry.
I almost always sight these guns in before finishing them. The barrel was a .54 cal Getz barrel, 1 in 66" if I recall. Sighted in to be on at 50 yards with a center hold. Left target was at 25, 2 shots, drift sight then 2 more. Right target at 50. Been shooting vertical strings lately but not too worried about it, probably just need to eat more carrots. Very pleasant to shoot, nice fast ignition. Patches looked good as you can see
(https://i.ibb.co/F44x9XC/E5-C7181-C-5-B88-474-C-91-A5-810595-D93-D6-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Mkk2bfQ)
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INTERMISSION
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We had been talking all along about expanding on The brass / iron theme of the previous year's "class gun" That Ken and I had built. Ken told me he had a couple ideas for a cheekpiece inlay then started sending me photos of original brass drawer pulls. We kicked around some ideas and then he just kind of took off from there sending pictures every day or two. Some really incredible creative stuff.
(https://i.ibb.co/fnP9n48/C351-CA76-DB14-477-F-BF97-C1-FE1-E11-F811.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4Y52YPs)
(https://i.ibb.co/hRdyv2p/732-D0-E92-BB8-E-4712-B041-86-A3-EA92-DB3-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fYN27rm)
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A nice shot featuring some of Ken's brass decorative work
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More cool shots of Ken's brass work and some neat filework on the buttplate giving kind of a fullered effect. When I forged the buttplate I left puckered spots at the corners to help him get started, but the grooves you see here are his filework.
To my eye the brass embellishments are very well placed and nicely balanced - there is some detail in the "repurposed drawer pulls" but offset by the simplicity of the single brass wire around the box and banded details on the guard and pipes. Overall very tastefully done. A lot of complementary shapes going on too.
(https://i.ibb.co/WnKyMHq/FF681-E78-2-B72-4585-900-E-6-A3-EC34-D6-E5-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/H7gzbK1)
(https://i.ibb.co/Lt7PDJW/3-A1666-FE-9-D8-C-4-EC2-A82-F-57-EB5-A7141-DE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PhHYs9n)
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(https://i.ibb.co/LkrQvQc/0-A8887-B3-BEAD-4504-85-D8-3-B29934905-BA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8KbzXzf)
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Last few showing a progression of the stock finish and Ken's snazzy carving, also
the box in an advanced stage of corrosive decay.
(https://i.ibb.co/k06PktJ/DA818279-BE40-4-E37-9574-E00-AB40-C8699.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jGZjBSz)
(https://i.ibb.co/r240sDP/3325-B308-D1-C1-4065-A7-C2-39-BE30-FFCA00.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CKh82Rd)
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(https://i.ibb.co/269TQtL/D4-E3-A3-A6-4-F16-4-AB9-B3-EF-CFCFEA2-DA16-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DbJZyC6)
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Ken and Ian
This is as good as it gets beautiful work by two masters
I have been fortunate to learn from both of them
If you want to see this and learn from them you need to spend a week at canters cave with them it will be a memorable experience
Respect gentlemen you are setting the pace
And funions ain’t worth a @!*%
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Ken already posted the pictures of the finished rifle so I have no big finish, so to those who feel swindled please accept this frog in water photo as a parting gift.
(https://i.ibb.co/vDM3Xt9/D060366-F-408-D-49-A8-97-FA-3-C45295-EA0-CE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x3r1F4Z)
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THE END
Credits:
Ian Pratt as shifty gunmaker behind tree
Ken Gahagan as Leo the brass foundryman
and Spike the Dog as Dog who stuck his head in a stockpot and drank from a batch of yogurt while I was posting pictures ten minutes ago
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Fabulous project.
So many great little details.
I especially like the brass hinge with the decorative detailing inside the lid.
Awesome start to finish,
Jeff
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Over the top is an Understatement, the Pix of the progress are reall cool. You guys have set the Bar not high but at the top, I think you have nailed it in place. Time to start thinking about a name for Your "School"? And I don't mean classes.
All The Best, Tim
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A treasure. I’d be interested to know who did what on it. Love the ramrod inlet pipe and all the rest too
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Scheckmeister, Thanks for your comment. If you go to about the center of page two I run down who did what as best as I can remember. Take care.
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So, what's to become of this fine work now? Joint custody? Sell? Auction fundraiser? Raffle? ????
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Tom, The one we made the year before this which is similiar in many ways is being raffled off to benifit the youth shooting program at Canter's Cave in Ohio were our classes are held. Those tickets are on sale now for a drawing in December. We could get you more information is you like. This gun was built as a spec gun but is sold.
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Wow! One of the nicest guns I have ever seen.
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Ken, I would like information on the raffle gun. You can email me or post here.
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Info on the raffle gun and accoutrements right here on ALR, hiding in the back pages of the classifieds - https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=58493.0 (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=58493.0)
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Thanks for sharing! Love the in progress photos.
Please do this again on future builds!
Both of you are great builders...together just unreal!
Jeff
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Over the top is an Understatement, the Pix of the progress are reall cool. You guys have set the Bar not high but at the top, I think you have nailed it in place. Time to start thinking about a name for Your "School"? And I don't mean classes.
All The Best, Tim
i think the appropriate school for those two is 'the reform school'! Heh heh heh
Seriously,. Beautiful work! It's a pleasure to see the true art you guys are making!
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Reform school, pure genius, I like it.
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Ian, the frog rocks. :-)
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Ken, I want to thank you for the photos of your Wm. Antes gun. I am sorry that I haven't responded sooner, but my our computer crashed and I haven't been able to get on ALR since Saturday. You did a beautiful job on your Antes build. I have always liked that gunwith the walnut strips added to the bottom of thecheek piece and stock. Thank you again for the photos and again a very beautiful gun!
Mark
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Thank you Ian for the build photos!
Mark
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Very Cool - It is a functional piece of artwork. How many man hours do you have into it?
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Mark no problem with photos, Huckleberry absolutely no idea on how many hours on this one. Ian and I both worked on different phases of it during any slow time in class and then passed it back and forth as time permitted. Ian took it home worked on it in between some things then full time before I got it again to work on and add finish but many, many hours. You have to enjoy doing this that’s for sure.
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Thank you Ian for the build photos!
Mark
You are welcome Mark, happy to share them. Wish we had taken a few more while we were getting started on it!
Ian, the frog rocks. :-)
Indeed. We get a lot of those little tree frogs around here every summer, we find them hiding all over the place. A few years ago , Maryellen and I had just pulled up to the curb at the CLA show after the two hour drive to Lexington KY. I jumped out of the truck, walked around the front of it and there was one of those tree frogs hanging onto the fender. Ride of a lifetime.
Thanks everybody for the nice compliments! Ken and I have been talking about another gun, will probably be a little while before we can get to it but we'll be sure to post pictures.
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We're all friends here, just trying to make sure the truth prevails. Anybody interested in seeing some of the "in progress" photos? Ken and I both took quite a few for our customer
Heinz, you got no sense of taper buddy
Love to see the in progress pics
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Both of you should be proud of this collaborative rifle. It is indeed quite stunning. Thank you for posting.
I'm also glad that you both signed the top barrel flat so that in 50 or 60 years, some dolt can't claim to have found a lost Moravian rifle in his grandma's attic. It's that convincing.
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That’s a huge complement, for hank you