AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: NJS on May 19, 2020, 09:57:02 PM
-
If using a tight pitch/ball combo in 40 caliber to squirrel hunt. What would be another good material for a ram rod other than wood? It’s ok if it’s not period correct, I’d just rather not have to worry about a rod breaking. Thank you all in advance for your help.
-
There’s nothing as good as hickory for strength to weight ratio. If you use a stainless loading rod cut to length it will be impossible to break but add weight right where you don’t want it.
There’s a guy here who sticks a steel insert in a wooden rod. Actually glues two halves together with steel road in the middle.
I find small calibers super easy to load with a tight combo. Last Saturday I was shooting a 451 ball and 22 thou patch in my .45 Bill Large barrel (I was pretending I was from British Columbia). Tough to start then slid easy all the way to the breech. I love choked bores.
-
This never got past the idea phase so I have no idea if it would actually work or not...
The theory was to procure a suitable length of hollow brass tubing and insert a hickory dowel that matches the tube ID into it. The dowel would not be as long as the tubing... Say 3" shorter. This would leave about 1.5" on both ends. The spare space in each end would receive solid brass inserts (one or both threaded for cleaning/loading attachments) and pinned through to keep them in place. The hickory would keep the brass tube from bending/kinking/buckling and the brass tube would prevent the hickory from bending/snapping. It would be a tad bit heavier than a plain hickory rod but quite a bit lighter than a solid brass rod.
I never actually attempted it so I have no idea how it would work in practice.
I wound up just buying a hickory rod and use short strokes during loading.
Mike
-
I seriously don't understand everyone's concern over broken ramrods.
Most guys at our local club carry along a range rod to load with. I've been doing this for over 30 years, use a range rod to clean when at home, but have always used the rod under the barrel exclusively when shooting.
To date, I've never broken a ramrod. I have pulled an end off a couple of times trying to pull a ball, but NEVER broken one loading.
Right now, I'm shooting a .50 cal with a 5/16" ramrod. .495 ball with a .020" patch.
Just sayin'.
-
I used 3/8" hickory for both .40 and .45 calibres with tight loads, including over bore sized balls with 10oz. (.0225") denim patching - NO Problem.
The bores on both those rifles were very smooth - no pits.
If you want a non-breakable rod, go with drill rod before stainless. Stainless is a tick more abrasive than stainless steel. 5/16" would suffice quite
well for rod dia., but of course, will be loose in 3/8" pipes. A leather pad glued into the rod groove near the muzzle will tighten the steel rod in the pipes
if you need to have it mounted on the gun.
-
The other problem is if your ramrods are tapered (like mine are) and you want to use a metal rod (for what reason I am not sure) your'e going to need a lath to turn the taper in. In all the years of shooting I did damage one ramrod end by not paying attention to what I was doing. Can't see the need and like others have said if you really want to save your wood ramrods just take your range rod along with you on the trail walks.
-
My used flintlock rifle came with an aluminum rod. I don't notice the weight of the rod with it in or out. I really like the steel rod in my Enfield.
-
Order on of the unbreakable rods such as the ones Track of the Wolf sells, I use one for a range rod and hunting in real cold weather at times. I've had it about 25 years now and they hold up great for under $20.
-
Thanks guys for all of the great information. Perhaps I should’ve worded my question differently. I should’ve asked if there was anything better than wood. It doesn’t sound like there is.
Smallpatch, it was a concern to me because, I‘m not a competitive or target shooter. I hunt and I am fortunate enough to get to spend a lot of days in the woods. I happen to take what I do seriously and any weak link in any of my equipment is a major concern to me. I’m usually alone and if a rod was to break, I can’t just borrow one from someone else, my day would be over. I was also born with the special talent of being able to tear up an anvil with a sponge. Thanks again to everyone for their opinions, they are all very much appreciated.
-
You can’t beat straight-grained hickory or ash. While hickory with a little grain run-out is usually okay if you load correctly, there is nothing better than split hickory and wood with lots of grain run out in the wrong places is problematic. The only rods I broke when I was a youngster were some crappy ramin wood that had terrible grain and my poor technique probably contributed. I prefer straight-grained hickory or ash for living history purposes, but even if I didn’t care whatsoever for material history I think I would still favor them for this application because of the combination of strength, lightness, and relative flexibility. I still hear guys insist on soaking rods in kerosene or coal oil to make them flexible. That’s silly in my opinion. Ramrods are for pushing, not hula hooping.
-
What about a length of aluminum round stock ? In the proper alloy it would be very strong and lighter than brass or steel as others have mentioned
-
Aluminum rods give me the willies. The ones that I have seen were roughed up from loading and the owners had muzzle wear on one side of the crown.
-
NJS no offense intended. Like I said, I keep a range rod in camp, but don't carry it in the field. I'm probably one of the most over equipped person you'll meet. Other than a dryball, and end of day cleaning, I just don't see the reason to worry about other ramrods.
Alacran, one of the members here, makes ramrods for under the barrel, with an ⅛" rod on the middle. That would seem like a great alternative.
-
"tearing up an anvil with a sponge", ha never heard that one before. But the meaning is clear. I have known a few people who routinely manage to do it.
-
I'll say it again. Straigh-grained hickory or ash is unbeatable. A metal rod or a steel insert is utterly superfluous if you load correctly with a straight-grained wooden rod.
-
Smallpatch, none was taken. Thank you and everyone else for your honest opinion!
-
I’ve used hand picked hickory rods and haven’t broken any in 20 plus years. The only rod I’ve ever broken was a delryn rod. Although I’m guilty as charged for using a stainless range rod on the square target range. The wooden rods get used for woods walks and hunting. BJH
-
I too agree with the straight grained Hickory. If you live out here on the west coast finding good hickory is next to impossible. The muzzleloader shops have theirs all picked over and trying to order one from a vendor asking for straight grain is a real venture into the abyss. I have some friends back east and mid-west I call upon for replacement rods. The good news is I now have several extras as I have only broke 1 and that was due to me "yacking" to a friend instead of paying attention to my loading.
-
I know of at least one shooter who went to his home building store and bought a 4 inch by 1/2 inch thick by 8 ft long hickory board, cut it into two 4 footers and made hickory splits out of them.
-
We've gotten 18 replies to your question and most state that the wood ramrod is just fine if you use it correctly. But no one has stated the correct use.
I'll go back to the comment from galudwig from April 2017:
"I always use my steel range rods in the same manner as I use my wooden ones; with short controlled strokes. I don't understand why someone would believe that anyone who uses one is only concerned about speeding up the loading process? One reason I like the ball or handle-end range rods is that I can feel the powder compact as I press the ball down on top of the charge. I believe that helps me compress the powder charge more consistently.
I also prefer to keep my roundball's as round as possible, so I never pound on the ball down the barrel by ramming a range rod down on top of them. Even when using wooden ramrods in the field, I will place a piece of deer antler with a ramrod-sized hole drilled in it on the end of the ramrod to get that same "feel" for final seating of the ball on the charge. I prefer to do that over "bouncing the ramrod" when I have the time."
You will want a ball and patch combination that trends to the easier to load, especially if you are expecting more than one shot.
-
SG hit it on the head. Buy hickory boards from your local hardwood dealer, picked for grain of course, and make your own rods. Commercial rods for the most part are made by doweling sawn blanks. Grain run-out and straightness are usually catastrophic.
-
I have seen plenty of broken rods , broken by experienced shooters. Some break right behind the ramrod tip. some break at t the last 6 inches of the tapered section. Seen guys have to go back to camp on a trail walk because they tried to load a ball with too dry a patch. Couldn't move it with the wooden rod. A lot of guys carry a range rod on trail walks. A lot of guys go on and on about starting a ball easily for hunting. If you are in a rush for that 2nd shot a wood rod just might break. Long story short the only rifle I have that doesn't have a metal insert, is my flintlock target rifle. It weighs 12.25 pounds. It will never be shot any where but at the range.
-
Depending on your ramrod pipes you may be able to use fiberglass covered with sticky back electrical shrink tubing. That is what Dewey uses on their steel rods. A 9mm fiberglass rod come out about 3/8 with shrink tubing applied. A 7mm might come out close the 5/16". And so on. Carbon fiber rods or tubes may also be interesting if weight is an issue.
-
I can't add very much to this conversation regarding hickory ram rods but I have had plenty of experience with coated Dewey rods. My experience with Dewey rods is not all that positive. The plastic coating is easily damaged by the rifling and in key places along the rod leaves the steel exposed. The coating IMHO is just not sufficiently tough to last very long.
-
The larger .35 cal.+ in the Dewey's are quite good, however the small calibre Dewey rods I've had, did not hold up and they were not springy at all
taking a bend if bent just a little bit with tight patches when used for cleaning.
The best loading/cleaning rods I've had, I made myself from long lengths of 3/8" 36" drill rod and 5/16" 48" stainless rod, they worked a treat.
-
I notice that Ron T is the only one who mentions pinning the rod ends. He is spot on with that. I can't tell you how many times I've seen some one trying to take care of a dry ball and leave the ramrod end in the barrel still attached to the ball puller.
-
You might consider a Delrin rod. Track of the Wolf sells them. One good thing about them is that you can use a scraper to taper the rod if that's what you need. I used one hunting in winter. I was concerned about a wood rod expanding and getting stuck in the rifle due to moisture. Delrin is waterproof.
-
I just use a good straight grained hickory rod for everything. I've never owned a range rod. I try to keep everything as it was done back in the day. So, cleaning, practice, woods walk, and hunting are all done with the ramrod on the gun.
However, to answer the OP's question. Spin Jag company will custom make a solid aluminum rod for you.
-
Rod tips are cross pinned on all my rods. I cannot imagine not doing that.
-
Me either.
-
;)Actually, I even did that with my TC, back in 1973, after losing the tip on the second or third time I used/cleaned the rifle.
-
Not reaching way up the stick is important for the longevity of a rod and the safety of your hands. Shorter grabs allows the rod to flex less.
I broke one once, but I think it had a lot to do with the ball and charge pushing it. Hit the target too, but no score. ;D
-
My thought on hunting is this - load your first shot tight, and using a range rod. If there is a follow-up shot or another shot that day, load it with a looser patch/ball combination. That will go down easier using the wood rod. It'll be less accurate, but it won't be hard to load with the wooden rod.
I have to say I like the idea of the wooden rod with the hidden steel rod inside. Have your cake and traditionally eat it too.
Just my 2 cents worth. God Bless, Marc
-
My thought on hunting is this - load your first shot tight, and using a range rod. If there is a follow-up shot or another shot that day, load it with a looser patch/ball combination. That will go down easier using the wood rod. It'll be less accurate, but it won't be hard to load with the wooden rod.
I have to say I like the idea of the wooden rod with the hidden steel rod inside. Have your cake and traditionally eat it too.
Just my 2 cents worth. God Bless, Marc
Except you add weight out on the barrel where I wouldn't want it but i'm sure that wouldn't bother others.
-
My thought on hunting is this - load your first shot tight, and using a range rod. If there is a follow-up shot or another shot that day, load it with a looser patch/ball combination. That will go down easier using the wood rod. It'll be less accurate, but it won't be hard to load with the wooden rod.
I have to say I like the idea of the wooden rod with the hidden steel rod inside. Have your cake and traditionally eat it too.
Just my 2 cents worth. God Bless, Marc
The wooden rods work fine for me with my loads. I do use a "range rod" when on the range testing, however that's about it.
-
Just a thought. If you load a very tight load for your first shot then use a looser combination for any follow up shots will in all probability have different points of impact. For me my hunting loads can easily be loaded with my wood ramrod and have excellent accuracy for a huntin rifle. I am not claiming if it were a bench rifle my groups would be smaller but not what I need in a hunting rifle.
Happy Father's Day to all the dads out there.
-
When shopping for a range rod, if it says "44, does that include the handle, or does 44 indicate the length of barrel the rod will accommodate? I suspect the latter, but I'd like to be sure.
-
If it says it's 44" it's 44" long.
-
When shopping for a range rod, if it says "44, does that include the handle, or does 44 indicate the length of barrel the rod will accommodate? I suspect the latter, but I'd like to be sure.
I didn't know there was such a thing for sale called a range rod.
For me, a range rod is one I made from 5/16" stainless or 3/8" steel drill rod and put and handle
on one end and drilled and tapped the other end for jags or ball screws.
-
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/566/1/RAMROD-C-44-10
That's the one I was referring to. Think I've got my answer. Rod length, sans handle is "44.
-
I like to use a hickory rod for loading in the field and brass for cleaning.
-
A lot of what you use for a rod depends on how you clean. My hickory ramrod only has a brass tip on one end. It's cupped and threaded. The wood end is at the muzzle when the rod is in the thimbles. I think a gun looks better that way but that's personal. For cleaning, I screw on a worm to the wood end and use tow to clean the bore. Tow doesn't get stuck in the bore like patches. I'm also not flushing water in the bore, so the wood rod is not subject to be soaked in water all the time. I'll dip the tow in water to scrub the bore and then follow with dry tow. Not much water is involved but enough to get the bore spotless due to the scrubbing gives. I have a wooden ball with a threaded stud in it so I can screw the ball on the brass end of the rod. I'll use that to turn the tow at the breech face to scrub it clean.
I forgot to mention I do pour in a little water down the bore with a plugged touchhole to soak the breech channel while I clean the lock. I don't fill the bore like some do.
Then I pour it out before starting to clean the bore with tow.
It's a simple system and puts no strain on a wood ramrod. I don't own a range rod. I doubt they used one back in the day. My method can also be done anywhere. All I need is a little water. Most of the time I do it in the field and when I get home my gun is clean and needs no attention.
Right or wrong. It's my way and I enjoy doing it this way. My gun is always clean and rust free.
-
I use a .018 tightly woven pillow ticking patch for my first shot. I've got several yards of it. For my second shot if I'm rushed I use a .015 tightly woven patch. These patches have been soaked in Canola oil but I spritz a little LeHigh valley or Mr. Flintlocks lube on the side that touches steel, this is to help cut the fouling on the way down and be certain it's seated properly. I haven't always done it like this but I learned my lesson a decade or so ago.
The first patch is pre-lubed with Canola oil also. 30 or so years ago a good man gave me a piece of hickory to make a ramrod out of, this was at a Rondy in Atlanta. I eventually made a RR out of this hickory to use in both my .54 and .40 and it works great. I always pin my rod tips on, it keeps the rod tip from being pulled off.
As for the question of my second shot missing the mark the answer is simple. If loaded exactly the same it would miss. But when working up a hunting load I spend a lot of time on this follow up shot until it shoots almost exactly where the tighter lube shoots. Part of this was reducing the charge by 5 grains or so.
-
For a range rod with my 20 ga fowler I have used, for years, a 5/16” round aluminum rod with a brass muzzle protector and for a handle, I use an Ace Hardware Oregon chain saw file handle. Jerry
-
I have seen some demonstrate loading and they claim you are supposed to grip the ramrod way up high and SLAM the ball down the barrel in “one smooth motion”.
In truth, nothing could be futher from the truth. I think many stories of people impaling their hands with broken ramrods could have been avoided with good technique. I use straight grain hickory and short strokes maybe 6” in length. Have yet to snap a rod.
-
Exactly. The only rod I've snapped was one made of ramin. There is very poor longitudinal strength in ramin and the rod broke straight across
virtually flat-topped. That left sharp little spikes about 1/16" long across the flat surface, but no long knife blade as with hickory.
Short strokes does the job much more safely.
-
I have seen some demonstrate loading and they claim you are supposed to grip the ramrod way up high and SLAM the ball down the barrel in “one smooth motion”.
In truth, nothing could be futher from the truth. I think many stories of people impaling their hands with broken ramrods could have been avoided with good technique. I use straight grain hickory and short strokes maybe 6” in length. Have yet to snap a rod.
You'd need a loose load for that one push all the way down. Otherwise, you better wear some real thick gloves. :)
-
I did that with the right barrel on my .58 Kodiak, then noted choking up on the rod for the second, left hand barrel, in the video.
I think that's one of the videos I sent to you Pete.
It was a relatively loose load of .0215" ticking patch and .562" RB. That's totaling .605" numerically. In the .580" bore, that's only .0125" compression per side.
Shoots cleanly, but the gun shot better with the same patch and a .574" ball. That one needed the rod choked up a bit.
-
I have seen some demonstrate loading and they claim you are supposed to grip the ramrod way up high and SLAM the ball down the barrel in “one smooth motion”
This sounds like military speed loading from the percussion era, Civil War and after, using paper cartridges, minie balls and metal ramrods. If there are people out there attempting this with prb and wooden rods they will sooner or later learn a painful lesson. It doesn't really surprise me though, so often only bits and pieces of technique survive from any given period and then get jumbled together during later revivals-- I see this often in traditional archery where the differences between Medieval and Victorian longbow, for example, are completely misunderstood by a certain percentage of archers.
-
pignut hickory would be the best for ramrods, my bow building books have pics. of this wood bending 180degrees without breaking. My experience with it in bows was none ever broke. Harvest it and strip the bark and you'll have one grain running the length of the piece.
-
Why isn't it more popular? I never heard of it. Can it be bought?