AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Jim Chambers on May 22, 2020, 03:52:28 AM
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With all the talk recently about locks and lock quality (or lack thereof) this is probably a good time to explain what we're doing with the Siler/Chambers line of locks.
About three years ago we recognized the potential to both reduce assembly time AND increase the precision and quality of our locks by incorporating some CNC machining of certain parts. We are working with Jason at Rice Barrel Co. to this end. It has been a painfully slow process including having our initial tooling stolen in shipping. But, we are finally in production with the new CNC'd parts.
Not wanting to waste material and machine time, we will still investment cast some parts like the plate, cock, top jaw, frizzen, etc. We cast the lock plates extra thick so that with CNC we can take a skimming cut off the inside surface of the plate leaving it perfectly flat and very smooth. Then, using CNC, we drill, ream and tap all holes in the plate precisely in the correct location. We are also CNC machining the tumbler, bridle and sear so they will be a precise fit on the plate. These internal parts are machined from pre-hardened material saving us time in not having to heat treat them.
We are still casting our springs as has been done for the past 60 years with very few problems. We use gauges and fixtures to give the springs the proper tension before sending them to a large commercial heat treating company that uses computer controlled furnaces to properly harden and temper the springs.
We are already in production with this new process for our Late Ketland and large Siler flintlocks, and we will be adding our other locks as time permits.
As others have found out, CNC machining comes at an increased cost of production. For now, we are offsetting some of the increased cost thanks to reduced assembly time. Our flintlocks are still priced at $195 retail (less for quantity orders), but prices will have to increase slightly later this year or next.
Please give us a call at 828-667-8361 if you have any questions.
Also, if you prefer to do your own assembly work, we still sell the Siler line of locks in kit form.
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Very nice. Thanks for the update Jim!
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Great news Jim and I look forward to seeing the final product. I suspect quality control of assembly must be challenging and costly. Hopefully, the CNC assist will help.
dave
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Will your kits still be sold with parts "as cast" like they are now, or will you selling them with the CNC machining done?
Dale H
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Dale,
The kits are basically just the castings. However, we have turned both axles of the tumbler on a CNC lathe.
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Bravo!....Not that I had any problems with the quality or performance of your locks before...
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Sounds like the space age has met the flintlock ;D.I hope the drilling and
tapping operation has an ability to countersink the holes the depth of ONE
full thread.It seems as if all efforts at a quality lock are directed at the flint
lock and I know for a fact that the caplock s like the Brazier's and Stanton's
have very rigid and extremely smooth and powerful mechanisms that go
beyond those found in any flintlock.As a now former lockMAKER I know that
a fancy curlycue bridle secured by ONE screw at the top is not as rigid as
a 3 or 4 screw type and I made it a point to avoid them.
I hope this venture succeeds and helps stimulate interest in real HISTORIC
styled flintlock guns and I hope the assembly matches the effort expended
in manufacture.
Bob Roller
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Ditto what Mr. Brooks said. Chamber's Flintlocks have long been the standard for quality, variety, value, and service, and it looks like they have set themselves up to stay in that position for a long time.
Well done.
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I guess thats good news, I never was ever going to wear out one of your locks but now it looks like my great grand children will still be shooting them too. I have one of your round face English locks that has about a gazilion shots through it and I still dont see any significant wear. Thanks for improving an already great product. :)
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Great news. I agree with Mike's comment. Once a lock gets faster than I can flinch, lock speed is no longer relevant. Also no more than I get to shoot, durability isn't much of a factor. My locks will last forever. However, it is good to see advances in the manufacturing process. I love a smooth working piece of machinery. Besides we need something to discuss other than the best lube or patch thickness.
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This is good to know. In the last year or so the lock manufactures have made the advancement into the CNC arena and the consumer has benefited from it with some of the highest quality never before seen in a lock. It is a win win situation for the muzzle loading gun builder.
I started building in the late 60's and at that time the Bud Siler lock was the cats meow 8). We are at another monumental event with the CNC lock production. This will put quality locks into the builders hands and will become a standard of quality that every will benefit from ;).
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I hope the assembly matches the effort expended
in manufacture.
Bob Roller
I think Mr Roller nailed it here. I have built four rifles using Chambers locks, never had one problem, zip, zero, nada. Can not say the same for other locks I have purchased.
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Indeed, I have never had an issue with your locks Jim. Attractive, fast, reliable. I am intrigued by your comments on improving the locks. My Late Ketland is a sweetheart.
I still think the best feature of Chambers locks is the friendly customer service that comes with them.
Thank you for the update good sir. God Bless, Marc
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Bravo!....Not that I had any problems with the quality or performance of your locks before...
Yeah, what he said...
Jeff
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*Waves*
Hi Jim!
Good to hear that you and Barbie are keeping up with the new kids, even if the process has not been easy.
I think that it is excellent that you are machining the tumbler bearings on the kits now, too. I don't think that many home workshops have lathes, so having a pre-turned tumbler makes the task of turning a kit into a worthwhile lock a lot more feasible for the average hobbyist.
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If you all have never worked with CNC machines. + or - .0005
tolerances are a piece of cake... as long as you pay attention to your cutting tools... Oldtravler
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Great news Jim. Does this process change include the LH Siler yet?
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Good on you Jim, it must mean there is a great demand for your locks, which I extrapolate to mean there must be a lot more black powder shooters out there than we what of ! I love the irony of space age tech being applied to an 17th cent artefact. I have both Siler on a couple rifles and one of your lovely round faced English locks on a lovely Niel Fields rifle, they are all lovely reliable fast locks. Hope this move goes well for you. Cannot understand why tooling would go missing in transport. The vagaries of the postal service I suppose.
Cheers
Gordon
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Jim,
I especially like the fact that this is an upgrade to an existing, proven lock and not a carbon copy of another lock but claiming to be a new design that is all CNC. I have used other CNC locks but aside from a more difficult disassembly couldn't declare them better or faster.
Looking forward to your quality matched with the consistency of CNC screw spotting and thickness planeing.
Kevin
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As a retired toolmaker with about 20 years building CNC fixtures and proving out the data and setups, I was intrigued by the idea of using CNC to manufacture flintlocks. On the other hand, being lefthanded I've accepted the fact that to upgrade my locks I would need to do so myself.
As a result I've learned more about fine tuning a lock than I ever thought possible and I'm well satisfied with the locks I've gotten from Chambers Flintlocks. In fact it suits my nature more to tune my own locks instead of buying one that's mostly already tuned right from the fixtures.
Good idea about skim cutting the lock plate for flatness. That's the first thing I do when tuning a lock. There are a lot of shooters who don't do so and don't understand why it's done.
I'm sure you will be well satisfied with your products once all the fine tuning is done to the fixtures and programming. No kind of machine tools are as accurate as CNC'd machines are.
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Thanks, Jim
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As a retired toolmaker with about 20 years building CNC fixtures and proving out the data and setups, I was intrigued by the idea of using CNC to manufacture flintlocks. On the other hand, being lefthanded I've accepted the fact that to upgrade my locks I would need to do so myself.
As a result I've learned more about fine tuning a lock than I ever thought possible and I'm well satisfied with the locks I've gotten from Chambers Flintlocks. In fact it suits my nature more to tune my own locks instead of buying one that's mostly already tuned right from the fixtures.
Good idea about skim cutting the lock plate for flatness. That's the first thing I do when tuning a lock. There are a lot of shooters who don't do so and don't understand why it's done.
I'm sure you will be well satisfied with your products once all the fine tuning is done to the fixtures and programming. No kind of machine tools are as accurate as CNC'd machines are.
Level the lock plate???I thought that a wear pattern would develop and then the rough
lock would smooth out ;D and a .306 tumbler shank thru a drilled only 5/16 hole worked fine.
Actually I well remember lock plates that were curved and had to be straightened and when
finally thought to be useable would warp again and frizzens that were so hard that no drill
including carbide tipped could go thru them.This goes to lousy and indifferent foundries and
I hope they all went broke and stayed that way.Even though a lot of muzzle loader parts were
tooled in plastic or maybe even play dough we deserved better than what we got when I first
started.
Bob Roller
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.....We are already in production with this new process for our Late Ketland and large Siler flintlocks, and we will be adding our other locks as time permits.....
Jim, I have 3 projects coming up soon on my schedule that require small Siler flintlocks. Do you have an estimate of when these locks will be undergo the new process? Thanks.
Don Richards
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I hope the assembly matches the effort expended
in manufacture.
Bob Roller
I think Mr Roller nailed it here. I have built four rifles using Chambers locks, never had one problem, zip, zero, nada. Can not say the ame for other locks I have purchased.
I noticed a quote from me recently made that is dated January 1975!!!
My faith in the electroworld has never been lower and this does nothing to restore
it. ;D.
The has been a fair amount of activity concerning making better flintlocks but has there
been any,other than myself attempted to make an upgraded caplock?
Bob Roller
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Nice to hear another company is taking pride in their product. Since my last bad experience I will be looking at Chambers first as well as Kibler.
Lockplates? Machining the plate from cold rolled mild steel produces a far superior plate. They are straighter and smoother than the cast ones, It seems to me that machining the plate bolster as a long L-shape bar, then cutting them out on a flow jet would make a better plate at a low cost.
How would the costs compare? Especially a flat plate like for many cap locks.
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Hi guys; I hope that Chambers ,in his upgrade on his locks, has addressed the problem of incorrect cock tension. To illustrate what I mean: measure the tension on the cock when fully forward. Use a fish scale to measure the pounds need to pull back towards full cock position. Now go to "half cock" and measure the pounds to pull the cock to "full cock". The ratio should be at least 50% of the poundage needed to pull the cock off of "full forward". In fact, the tension needed at "full cock" should be very minimal - only a pound or so. When pulling cock to "full cock" it should bet easier not harder. If it gets harder it means the mainspring/tumbler relationship is out of sink! The hook of the mainspring should ride up to the axel of the tumbler as far as possible. This increases the "MA" of that relationship. It results in less tension on the sear nose and lessens the trigger pull poundage. Check out fine made English locks. They example the best in lock mechanics from the 18-19 centuries. When assembling locks from commercial manufactures I always have to reposition the mainspring to establish this geometry. I recently talked to Kibler about his "new" CNC locks. He tells me that his locks have no "MA" in the Mainspring/tumbler relationship. I wish he had addressed that issue in his "upgrade"! This is just my opinion after 40 yrs. of adjusting flintlocks to work properly. Hugh Toenjes
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Most of the best English locks used a link or "stirrup"as some called it.The old style
arrangement of direct contact between tumbler and mainspring was never a good
idea but making small parts like the link and a tumbler to accommodate that link
was beyond the capability of many shops and the people that worked in them.
On new flintlocks,I abandoned the "slip and slide"tumbler/mainspring idea in 1970
in favor of the linked style.On the 3 and 4 screw caplocks I made there was a very
definite feeling that when the hammer was first started back there was resistance
and after half cock was passed almost no resistance was felt.
I have used Jim Chambers Late Ketland external parts in the past and used my own
bench crafted parts internally and it made a very fast and slick working lock and I
want to take the time now to thank Jim for selling those great parts to me.The same
to L&R for the parts they sold to me as well.
Bob Roller
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Hugh, on Saturday, I received a new "Deluxe Siler" from Chambers. It will be going on a generic Lancaster .45 in the near future.
It is, as you know, a "slip and slide" affair, and quite stiff going from rest to half-cock. But, quite a bit lighter going from half to full cock. It has not been polished and oiled/greased yet, and I do anticipate that it will be a bit easier to cock when I get all that done.
Would I want a stirrup to the spring? You betcha - but it is a very fast, reliable lock. Maybe we can talk Jim into trying a "stirrup-ed" version.
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Some want the best lock available and don’t care if it is historically accurate. Others want historically accurate with the best performance for that style, so would not buy a 1770s era Germanic export style lock with a stirrup linkage. I for one want historically accurate internals for the period of the lock. I’ll be putting together a TRS bridle-less Wilson trade gun lock soon - no internal bridle. It’s right for the gun I have planned.
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Plus 1 for historically correct internals.
This includes ditching the sear spring made from flat stock.
The bridal should have a pin that mounts into a hole in the plate. I believe this is an anti-rotation feature preventing the bridal from loosening from rotational forces as the tumbler rotates. Basically you're getting 3 fixed points... the bridal screw, sear screw, and fixed pin. Later English locks replaced the pin with a 2nd bridal screw... and eventually went with 3 bridal screws and separate axle for the sear.
I'd also like to see more correct bridal shapes. I understand that it's more cost effective to use the same bridal (i.e. the Siler bridal) for multiple locks, but it looks out of place on a late English lock.
Just my 2 cents. Take it for the 2 cents it's worth.
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Plus 1 for historically correct internals.
This includes ditching the sear spring made from flat stock.
The bridal should have a pin that mounts into a hole in the plate. I believe this is an anti-rotation feature preventing the bridal from loosening from rotational forces as the tumbler rotates. Basically you're getting 3 fixed points... the bridal screw, sear screw, and fixed pin. Later English locks replaced the pin with a 2nd bridal screw... and eventually went with 3 bridal screws and separate axle for the sear.
I'd also like to see more correct bridal shapes. I understand that it's more cost effective to use the same bridal (i.e. the Siler bridal) for multiple locks, but it looks out of place on a late English lock.
Just my 2 cents. Take it for the 2 cents it's worth.
The sear spring from flat thin
spring steel is one more production expedient.
I never used them or cast mainsprings either but will admit the mainsprings are
better than they used to be and I remember all sorts of horror stories about
springs breaking and knocking a chunk out of the underside of the lock mortise.
I might have been the only one to make a sear spring with a formed and not
bent eye for the screw to go thru an d I added about 45 minutes to the making
of a lock.I thought it was worth the extra time and don't regret doing it if for no
other reason than the appearance of the mechanism that IS the lock.
Bob Roller
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Bob: Kudo's to you for taking the time to make locks the way they should be! All of the commercial lock makers today should take lessons for you! As my old Dad would say : "If a job is worth doing - it's worth doing RIGHT"! No it is not always about money!
Thanks again Bob for your input. Hugh Toenjes
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Hugh,
Many thanks for these remarks.Like I have said before and that is, when you got
a lock or trigger from me it will tell the new owner what I think of him or her and what do
I think of myself as the maker. You're right about the money.Lock and trigger making contributed but
I did other more conventional machine shop jobs in my shop and in others as well and working
on high end European cars were also a good source of income for us.
Thanks again.
Bob Roller