AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: stretchman on May 29, 2020, 08:44:17 PM
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I have been looking to buy linen for patch material. I have found websites that list its weight. Does anyone have a clue or a ball park figure as to how thick 15oz. linen would be?
Thanks
Todd
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No. But I'll bet they'll sell you a batch of swatches, labelled, so you can measure them, and then have a base line of knowledge. I suspect that weights of linen will be similar to those of denim, but linen is denser fabric, and doesn't compress like denim, so that may not be of any use.
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Much linen is more loosely woven than cotton denim or twill. But it’s very strong. I have some thick fustian which is very tough and tightly woven. Generally if I can see light through fabric looking at bright sky I avoid it.
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I got in contact with some folks in South Carolina who sent me some samples of their Linen. One interested me so they sold me a small batch, it was .022 thick squeezed hard. But like Rich said it was a very loose weave and didnt work as well as the denim I had been using.
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I have some different weights of 100% linen. If you would like to purchase, let me know. I have settled on some close weave cotton that works good for me. If you would like to purchase, let me know. Jerry
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I bought some linen ticking from these folks and some of the "diaper" linen too... Somewhat expensive. But they might sell swatches to you so you can decide if you like any of their stuff.
https://wmboothdraper.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=3_15
The diaper linen was very nice and tightly woven, but far too thick, .030-.035 thick.
The particular ticking I bought (didn't notice it still listed as in stock) was also tightly woven but a bit thin for my tastes... Mic'd at .015.
Mike
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I watch thrift shops, church sales and the like for linen, couple bucks could by you years and years of shooting. This way you can actually look at it or measure it.
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Most linen I've found runs .013", a little on the thin side.
I like it though for hunting as it won't set the woods on fire; the patches won't burn.
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If you really want to use linen for patching then I would suggest you google Wm Booth Draper. He is a provider of historical wool and linen products for re-enactors. He has many different weights of linen. He even has hemp canvas.
AsMs
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I had poor results when I experimented with linen as patch material. However, I used the remainder of what I had for cleaning patches and it worked very well for that.
Don Richards
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I had contacted Draper about patching material and posted his response here a good while back.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=53274.msg532852#msg532852
Really nice guy. I spoke with him several times at Sprit of Vincennes.
DAve
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IIRC - the only linen I've tried was some back in about 1973. This was while I was experimenting with patch thicknesses.
I do recall it was fairly thick, but quite a loose weave and didn't work as well as the .022" "brushed" light blue denim I found
in a sewing store, in Smithers, B.C. I've been using denim ever since and although some pocket drill or twill I used with some
.400" balls in a .40 rifle did very well for grouping.
For all my guns now, it's denim, either in 8oz. which I measure at .0195" to .020" or 10oz. I measure at .022" to .0225".
I do use some 12 or 14 ounce denim in the .69 but they are very tight loading, except for when using 15 bore balls at .675/.677".
With those, I can use WW alloy due to their being .013" smaller than the bore.
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Just a note...
While styles and materials have changed, don't discount ticking as later or post period of the era we study. Mattress or pillow ticking of one form or another has been in use for about 1000 years...
http://www.lorangerieshop.com/2016/09/26/mattress-ticking/
Mike
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I got to thinking about this and decided to double check...
Here is the linen ticking I got from WB Draper... No good for patching, at least not to me. But would probably suffice to line a bag... Squeezed down tight the calipers show it as .013
(https://i.ibb.co/30gyzcm/11414.jpg) (https://ibb.co/19Ff6TG)
And just more proof my memory is shot... the linen diaper cloth or "pilcher" cloth mic'd at .025 not .030 or .035 like I thought I remembered. It might work if you like a super tight combo. This stuff is also woven really tight. Not much light gets through when held up in front of a bare bulb...
(https://i.ibb.co/C27pttD/11413.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jRM955s)
Here are the links to both those items if you're interested...
The ticking:
https://wmboothdraper.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3_15_18&products_id=47
The diaper linen:
https://wmboothdraper.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3_15_18&products_id=46
Just a heads up... Bring your checkbook.
Mike
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The linen material you are looking for is a commercially produced material that is traditionally used to make linen napkins, and tablecloths, as well as aprons, and dish towels, for the restaurant industry. I don’t think you are going to find anything in the twenty two thousandths range, about eighteen is the thickest I’ve found. Linen doesn’t rot like cotton, It can be heavily bleached without damage to the materials integrity, unlike cotton which can be weakened by bleach, age, and sunlight, along with pressure from overly tight loads.
Hungry Horse
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One yard of that diaper linen, with shipping, is about $38. If your patches are 2" square, you would get 486 patches from the 54" wide cloth, or a bit more than 7 cents per patch. The smaller the patch, of course, the more you get, and thus lessen the cost. 0.025" thick should be thick enuf for most of us.
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If I planned to use linen for patching I’d select this. I expect it runs about 20-22 https://www.wmboothdraper.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=29&products_id=27
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And just more proof my memory is shot... the linen diaper cloth or "pilcher" cloth mic'd at .025 not .030 or .035 like I thought I remembered. It might work if you like a super tight combo. This stuff is also woven really tight. Not much light gets through when held up in front of a bare bulb...
(https://i.ibb.co/C27pttD/11413.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jRM955s)
Just a heads up... Bring your checkbook.
Mike
Hi Mike- I was wondering what the measurement on the linen would be if you pinched the jaws of your dial calipers between fore finder and thumb- hard as you can?
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There are linen services that supply high end restaurants that routinely end up with table cloths, napkins, towels, and aprons made of linen that are stained beyond use. They can be purchased for very little. This stuff is woven so tight that if you could get it in twenty two thousandths thickness you would need a sheet metal break to fold it.
Hungry Horse
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.030" is what I measure 12 oz. denim at, using my dial calipers, with the pinched tine method.
.034" is what I measure 14 oz. denim at, using the same method.
With my mic, using the ratchet, I measure those at .025" and .030". Taylor's mic measures thicker than
this as his ratchet is not as strongly set as mine happens to be.
If I crank down hard on the barrel, (which is abuse of the tool) they both go to .002"- so what are they actually?
We use our best methods and report how they shoot - I guess that is the best we can do.
Using my dial calipers I measure OxYoke .018" at .015" av. and their .020" at .017" av. they measure much thinner with the mic.
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Daryl if I squeeze the jaws together like you suggested the diaper linen mic's at about .021 or .022
The ticking still came out about .013
Mike
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Thanks Mike. Sounds perfect for most of my rifles and the smoothbore too!
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Thanks Mike. Sounds perfect for most of my rifles and the smoothbore too!
Happy to help.
Mike
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That was a-lot of great information.
Thanks
Todd
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I use Blick artist canvas which is Belgian linen. Not sure how thick but it has to be .020 at least & is very tightly woven. Very hard to tear by hand. It is very expensive but you can shoot a lot on a yard that is 5 ft wide. A guy at our range put me onto it. He was shooting expensive Pedersoli pistols, and doing it really well, but I never saw him there again. It doesnt work for every gun, but when it does, the results are excellent.Roger B.
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One word of advice that I'd like to offer...when you find a material that your rifle(s) really like, go back to the store and buy the whole bolt. Yes, it'll be an investment but I can't count how many times I've found the "perfect" patch material only to run out of it, and not be able to buy more because the store is sold out and isn't bringing that material back in.
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Just as Taylor says. If you find any of this material, red/white/light blue/dark blue ticking buy it. This is all I have left and it shoots
extremely well and is easy loading in all my rifles. I measure it at .022" with my "middle" calipers. This material is no longer available
apparently, at least that is what the sewing centre said about it.
(https://i.ibb.co/6J0rF5V/IMG-2864.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gFZmJCH)
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I use Blick artist canvas which is Belgian linen. Not sure how thick but it has to be .020 at least & is very tightly woven. Very hard to tear by hand. It is very expensive but you can shoot a lot on a yard that is 5 ft wide. A guy at our range put me onto it. He was shooting expensive Pedersoli pistols, and doing it really well, but I never saw him there again. It doesnt work for every gun, but when it does, the results are excellent.Roger B.
The Blick Belgian Linen Canvas comes in several grades. Is it the portrait single weave, smooth single weave, medium smooth single weave, medium smooth double weave, medium double weave, or medium rough double weave? Only the bold fabric is 54" wide.
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Medium double weave I believe. Unfinished.
Roger B.
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I bought some white linen at Jo-Anns. It works fairly well in my 45 Kibler SMR. Regular .018 ticking works better. The linen I lube with lambs tallow. It measures somewhere in the vicinity of .013. I can load the ball with just the ramrod if I hold it close while starting it This linen will burn through in a few places but the patch was intact. It was expensive. If I was using it to fight injuns it would work better than the harder to load ticking.
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Best linen I ever had was some old pillow cases my mother gave me.
V. dense and held up to the light, you couldn't see the sun through it. Marvelous stuff. .018" if I remember right.
No burn through at all, but I used deer tallow and that maybe helped.
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I was told that Irish linen was what you should use, cause it has a tighter weave. Pure cotton.
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100% cotton works for me. I use mostly denim in 10oz weight, but have some harder weave light canvas, also .022" that works well.
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Whatever the material, you want it to have a dense weave. Like canvas. My test is if I can see sunlight through a fired patch. If I can, it's time for better material.
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Bought some of the “diaper cloth” linen. Shot well, but recovered patches were frayed. Didn’t have a chance to shoot another target, so don’t know if this is a fluke. Should there be any concern with the tattered edges of the patches?
(https://i.ibb.co/31CDbf3/29616-B30-DB52-4-C78-81-F9-CB360065602-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TcgVGKf)
(https://i.ibb.co/7SP8mfM/B29-F7-EA2-27-F9-43-E7-A056-5-B98366-FEB40.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b6Tq90w)
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I expect this was another 100yard target, stretchman. I see nothing wrong with the target and obviously from that
there is nothing really wrong with the patches, which appear to have done their job until the muzzle blast destroyed the
edges. You can see most of it is just unwoven, not cut or burnt. Fraying happens to the edges, especially with such heavy loads.
A 10oz or 11oz. denim would likely have have fared somewhat better. If you are happy with the accuracy, then so be it.
I might spend the time trying denim in 10 up to 12oz. just to see how it does, in comparison.
If the linen is loading well, shot to shot, then that's the important thing.
I see you used bore butter. Many folks have found that stuff wanting and have switched to Neetsfoot Oil or Track's Mink Oil
as a better lube, especially for hunting in cooler weather.
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I will get some heavy denim and give it a try. I figured the bore butter would draw some attention. I really like mink oil, but was able to buy the lip balm locally without making an order from Track of the Wolf. I have some diaper cloth linen precut and treated with neats foot oil, but didn’t have the chance to test them when I was at the range the other day. All the testing is done at 100 yards. To many times a load would shoot good at 50, but when tested at 100 the wheels would fall off.
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"Lip balm" - spot-on - good one ;)
In my .69, with heavy loads, I found the Neetsfoot Oil to be a bit stiffer loading than Mink Oil.
I really like the minks.
Both work for hunting.
Patches saturated, then excess squeezed out. I became prone to using an isolation 'wad' between powder and patched ball.
My .69 did not care, accuracy wise. It was basically to prevent harming the powder and to maintain 'full' power of the load.
I tried the same in the .40 and .45 rifle and the accuracy went South with the wad.
I think as with modern guns, the larger bores are more forgiving of minor changes.
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Funny that you mention the use of a wad with your .69. Before finding decent patch material and polishing the crown the only way I could keep the rifle from blowing patches was to use a wad. I used fiber wads to no avail, but discovered tow makes excellent wad material. I would use enough tow to make an approximate .62 ball, place it on top of the powder charge and then send the patched ball down. I was able to shoot some good groups, but never achieved the consistent accuracy that I do now. Interestingly with the tow I could use a patch as thin as .010”. That made for a very easy loading combination... no short starter required. My only complaint with tow was being able to consistently use the same amount, plus it was another step necessary for the loading process.
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I've never tried tow. I used card stock in all the guns. The small bores did not like it at all, blowing groups double size at 50yards. I mean, they
were still shooting 2" or so groups, but regularly double what single patch was doing.
I suspect the tow kept the fouling buildup to a minimum, even with the thin patches.
Consistency, though are a jewel! - especially with shooting ML's.
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Stretchman: really like your rifle.
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Thanks Taylor... I like it too! Will try and get some good pictures of it in the next dew days.
Todd
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Thanks Taylor... I like it too! Will try and get some good pictures of it in the next dew days.
Todd
That would be great, Todd. I'd like to see more of it, too.
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Most pure linen I have examined is too thin or loose weaved for my tastes.
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Panzerschwein I am with you on the linen. In reading historical accounts linen is heavily praised. I don’t think its made the same today as it was then. For now, I will go back to heavy canvas and try some denim For the most part the canvas performs well, but I do find a tear in the center of some of the fired canvas patches.
Todd
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A tear in the centre is quite odd.
I've not seen this.
11 or 12 ounce denim will give you the thickness desired, Todd.
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I have a few pictures of the .62. I will try and get some better ones soon.
(https://i.ibb.co/0cnVBFL/98-D5-DE17-4-BAD-4-AAD-A1-F0-49-C2614839-F4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s2gJ564)
(https://i.ibb.co/Rp0Zggr/ECB00-D69-2-C4-A-433-D-8201-6451-F5-EAB722.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y7kYNNn)
(https://i.ibb.co/FVBZtqQ/7301761-B-2-DE0-4-CF6-89-A9-F10-A8-A2974-AA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3z06HYx)
(https://i.ibb.co/h7600jW/0-B389-EAD-4-D0-C-4-FC1-8-EF2-762-DE1-F5-B9-AB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/w0kttXW)
(https://i.ibb.co/QcSyYtd/02-E777-B0-3-E60-4-B87-B203-5-EFAE49432-CF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qnqTmV5)
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Here are pictures of the patches that were discussed earlier.
(https://i.ibb.co/fCRtKWm/8-C950-E2-F-8690-4-DBE-8-DB6-32-CA15-B02246.jpg) (https://ibb.co/19VKpNH)
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Strechman, I also like your rifle and those tears in the patches make me think they tear during the loading. Is that a possibility? :-\
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That has been my thoughts. When shooting for long periods I notice that I have a tendency to push the ball on top of the powder charge with more force. Maybe I am over compensating for possible powder fouling, or I become less concentrated the more I shoot. Its always my goal to stop the ball as soon as I feel it make contact with the powder charge.
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I would consider the weave is to loose and burning through some.
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Yes - strange. The uneven powder burning also shows some scorching out the grooves.
The weave is definitely too loose on the material, even though it seems to measure thick enough.
The light coloured material in the holes has me kinda baffled, though. If happening during loading,
I would have expected it to be crispy-burnt from the flame front.
Different material needed, imho.
Beautiful - FUNCTIONAL rifle. what a perfect style for a hunting rifle. Yes, I am biased.
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This in a very close copy of Jim Bridger's Hawken I built. I like linen. Don't remember where I got this. I found only two good patches of this group, hard to find them on the ground I shoot over. That flyer may have been a torn patch, or maybe it was how I saw the sights. That rifle is shown in my post above, ".54 Bridger Hawken with a 1-48" twist barrel".
(https://i.ibb.co/Qr7m7nj/Bridger2-OE-1-and-half-tgt-patches-measure.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WgNKNFp)
(https://i.ibb.co/hB3LC2f/Bridger2-120-OE-1-and-half-targets.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K2TbmVw)
It takes a really good patch to stand up to loads like this.
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Went back to the Booth Draper web page and saw that they were selling 12oz hemp ticken. Hemp is an extremely durable material, so I ordered a 1/4 of a yard for testing. When it arrived I measured it with a set of calipers and as best I can tell its right around .025” thick. When I have a chance to get to the range, I will post the results.
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Happened to find some light weight denim at Walmart (clerk didn't know the weight). So I bought 1/4 yard, brought it home and it measured, with squeezed caliper jaws at 0.0225 ". For a whole $2 what's not to like--except now I have to cut all those little 1 1/8" circles out!
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Bill - sounds just like 10oz, denim, my favourite.
You can rip denim into strips at about 1 3/8" wide, pull off the 'strings' of thread then the strip will end
up being about the right width, then cut the strips into squares with scissors.
Square works just the same as round. If you push one into the muzzle from a strip of cloth, then pull it out, it will be square with rounded corners.