AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Thlayli on June 04, 2020, 06:04:20 PM
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1st post. Making the switch from compound bow to flintlock deer hunting. I just ordered a TVM Southern in .50 caliber, should arrive just in time for my 50th birthday. While I wait, I'd like to stock up on the stuff I'm going to need. Will any of you recommend a brand/grain of black powder that will work best in this rifle? Patches as well, and cleaning supplies. Thank you.
This Southern, I got it with the aged steel furniture and a small patchbox. I know its not built on a specific model, but what would be your best guess as to its relative time period? 1820s?
Thank you and I imagine this has been covered already, but I haven't yet got the hang of the search function.
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3f will work fine in a .50. 2f will also work, and the recoil won't be a sharp, but I would use the 3f. Any brand will work to get started. You can mail order the powder. Depending on the load, you will get about 100 shots per pound. Order at least 5lbs. with one pound of 4f for priming or you can go primitive and prime with the 3f. Your call on that. I use 4f or Null-B. I'm not even going to start with patches and cleaning. There are many ways to do that. You will get plenty of opinions there.
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Your best and most accurate load will be found by shooting the gun your self. Start with one grain of powder per cal. And shoot 5 shot groups An d record the results at 50 yds. then go up 5 grains and repeat.
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Ask Matt at TVM for a good starting point.
I’m sure he’s familiar with what loads others have used in the same gun.
As a rule I shoot fffg in my rifles, ffg works well in some too.
As others have mentioned you’ll just have too see what the gun likes.
You’ll need a turnscrew( screwdriver) , a lock vice, something to knap the flint with( tool or brass rod).
Other than that it’s pretty much the same equipment as used from a percussion gun.
Of course you’ll need flints and a small leather pad instead of caps.
Maybe a small primer for the pan , but it’s not a must.
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Thank you, that is all good information. Lock vice, is that a gun rest?
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Thlayli: I to would recommend 3F I use and like GOEX. Besides ordering a couple more flints and a knapping tool. The first thing 2 things I would suggest is to fire up your computer to Youtube Black Powder TV. Bob has several episodes for the starting shooter and without fail order the book Flintlocks A Practical Guide for their use and Application by Eric A. Bye. You can order a copy from NMLR or direct from the author for $34.95. Eric's address is 177 main Street North Springfield Vermont 05150.
I guess I should go back to the beginning WELCOME, and glad to see you here. If you have specific questions that don't get answered here feel free to message me here.
Good luck and again welcome from the 'ol "Muskraat".
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Thank you, that is all good information. Lock vice, is that a gun rest?
I think he means a mainspring vice, for dismantling the lock. trackofthewolf sells them. Just put a www. in front of that name and .com at the rear.
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I'll check out that channel and get that book, I live in Vermont myself.
www in front and .com at the end? I think I can manage that. Thanks!
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Welcome! All the above suggestions are very good. Only thing I would add is find a Muzzleloading club near you and go shoot with them. You'll learn the most from actually shooting and there will be experienced folks there to help you when the flintlock starts screwing with you.
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I took a look at the TVM website , and see that there are some upgrades available re the Southern rifle, including a swamped barrel. Many swamped barrels have the round /oval bottomed rifling vs square cut. There is a difference in the depth, which will affect which thickness of patching you will require.
The Siler lock that comes as standard should work well for you.
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Welcome. I suggest you invest $30 plus shipping and get this book https://www.nmlra.org/store/flintlocks-a-practical-guide-for-their-use-and-appreciation It is a good source of information for those beginning in muzzle loaders, especially flintlocks, but also cap locks.
Don Richards
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Thank you, that is all good information. Lock vice, is that a gun rest?
I think he means a mainspring vice, for dismantling the lock. trackofthewolf sells them. Just put a www. in front of that name and .com at the rear.
Thanks Daryl, that is exactly what I meant too say...
they do come in handy with a flintlock.
Finding a local club or someone with like interest would be a plus as mentioned above.
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Book's on the way. I got the swamped barrel and the late ketland lock. I'll look for a shoot in the area. This is all terrific advice, thanks again.
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I suggest that you start off with the "K.I.S.S." philosophy and don't get too wrapped up in all the "extra stuff" at first. You will need powder - 3F is good (you can also prime with it), an adjustable powder measure, patch material - tight weave cotton 0.015" - 0.018" about 1/4 of a yard and wash the starch out of it before you use it, pure lead balls 0.490" diameter, patch lube (too many to list) for hunting try mink oil, a sharp knife, a short starter (handy but not totally necessary), half a dozen good flints to start with, some light weight leather to wrap the flint in when installing it into the lock jaws, a turn screw and some type of ball puller or CO-2 ball discharger. I probably missed something and others will chime in. Watch the YouTube videos and read some good books before heading to the range. Practice at home going through the loading sequence without really loading the rifle so you feel comfortable and most of all PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT YOU ARE DOING - don't talk to others when loading the rifle :-X!!
I would suggest a good sturdy range rod with proper fitting jag for your caliber and a muzzle protector. Use this at the range and during cleaning after the range session. Use water to clean with and a good protective oil after cleaning. I hope this info helps ;).
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If I had to pick one powder for everything it would be 3F Goex. I like Swiss but not worth $10 more a lb. As others said you can prime with 3F also but I prefer 4F for priming.
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I use 3F in virtually all calibers. My .50 likes 70 grains of 3F. I have one of those SMR similar to yours except it's a .36. I shoot it more than any other rifle. You made an excellent choice with barrel and lock; you'll be very pleased. And welcome!
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my 2 cents worth, 3f is perfect for the 50, I like goex ol eynsford. it gives me better groups than regular goex, and to me it is cleaner burning and easier to clean the gun after shooting. it cost a couple of bucks more than the regular goex and less than swiss, but it is worth it to me. and I gave up priming powder long ago. I prime with what I am shooting in the gun. in my 54 and 62 cal. I use 2f and I prime with that and see little difference,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Switching from a compound bow to a flintlock rifle is a huge change. I think I can assume right that you have no experience with black powder. Save yourself a lot ot of problems and money and find a group of black powder shooters nearest you and shoot with them. Ask a lot of questions and really pay attention to what they do and say. Join the NMLRA if for no other reason than to get their magazine for information and training.
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Book's on the way. I got the swamped barrel and the late ketland lock. I'll look for a shoot in the area. This is all terrific advice, thanks again.
There are two National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association chartered muzzleloading clubs in Vermont. If either are not far from you, you might want to contact them. https://www.nmlra.org/charterclubs
Don Richards
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If it was mine i'd use Goex 3F in the pan and charge and see if it was accurate.
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Book's on the way. I got the swamped barrel and the late ketland lock. I'll look for a shoot in the area. This is all terrific advice, thanks again.
The swamped barrel makes it nicer to carry, and resembles the contours of forged iron barrels. The Late Ketland lock dates it by the lock (I don't know the dates offhand) but most importantly gives it credence as a Southern-styled gun. The "standard" Siler is a Germanic lock and such were not normally used anywhere in the South BITD.
They (Siler/Germanic locks) are heavily used however by entry level kits and by some gun makers, even on "Southern" guns. Kudos on getting the right lock.
Here's another tidbit: Clean with water (consider tow and worm in the place of patches/jag). Not hot water, not warm water-just water. Water is the perfect solvent for black powder residue and using anything else often leads to issues. Heated water often results in flash rusting-which fails to occur with cold water.
Avoid any substitute powders, they vary in formulations, and some are very very bad for barrel steel. It's far too easy to order BP (of various mfg's and granulations) to suffer a rotted barrel from "convenience" (or ignorance or faith in a mfg's spuriuos marketing claims). It's important that a new guy learns this up front because once a substitute has started etching the bore, it's very difficult to get it stopped.
NOTE: as with everything complicated in life, there will be those who argue the other side, citing their long history with one thing or the other. That's great, but the chemistry and metallurgy underlying the root of barrel pitting by perchlorated powders is sound. They also give off cyanide in the smoke.
Speaking of complications. There are many dozens of threads with hundreds of replies-and probably as many recipes for patch lube here on this site alone. You'll have to work that out for yourself when you start working up a load. Don't just pick a load and shoot that forever. Start with a load and shoot rested groups to determine how accurate that load is, but until you work out a patch thickness/ball size combination that works (with no blown patches and no build-up), all accuracy testing is irrelevant. You can go ahead and pick a load to start shooting, just so you can work out all the various details and get familiar with the process and all.
Last thing you do is adjust the sights-after plenty of shooting and working out your combination. This can save you from having to replace a sight that was over-filed in the beginning.
There's pretty much nothing you can ask that hasn't been asked, so don't be surprised when folks say "do a search" if you inquire about some hammered out topics (especially when the anvil is yet ringing from the last "go around"). You'll see.
Black Powder TV-Bob has lots of good info up.
Welcome, and best of luck and don't complicate things more than they have to be. I'd load and prime with 3F in the pursuit of simplicity.
PS: When you get a flash in the pan.
WAIT!!! WAIT!!! WAIT!!!
The gun could hang-fire and the delay could be a fraction of a second, or much longer. Just wait
a few seconds to several before recharging or investigating, because there may be a slow spark working and having the gun pointed the wrong way when a delayed charge goes off can change your life.
I've seen "gun familiar" folks not do this and it freaks me out every time. It's horribly unsafe.
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Thlayli: You can quit reading all the posts now. Just read Wade's post, then reread it. Best advise any of us are going to give you.
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Here's a good hunting lube that a lot of us use.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/131/1/MINK-OIL
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Here's a good hunting lube that a lot of us use.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/131/1/MINK-OIL
ditto
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USE REAL BLACK POWDER IN YOUR NEW GUN! GOEX FFF
NO SUBSTITUTES IE: 777, PYRODEX ,WHITE LIGHTNING, ETC
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This is some good stuff, thanks. Received my "Flintlocks: A Practical Guide", what a great resource.
What do you guys swab your barrels out with between shots? A dry patch? If wet, with what, water?
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Unless I am shooting a lot of shots (over 30) I don't swab between shots. With the lube I use and the patches I use I don't feel the need to. 20th one goes down just as easy as the first. In the Pacific NW we don't seem to get the "crud" ring some talk about. I believe that is directly related to your humidity as much as the lube and patch but that is a subjective comment with nothing to back it up with. Good luck and keep making that withe smoke. "Muskrat" Mike.
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NEVER use a dry patch. It can easily get stuck and the race is on to get it out.
As Muskrat said.... if you’ve got a good patch and ball combo, and a good lube, you don’t need to run a cleaning patch between shots.
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One of the most important items in using thicker patches and not needing to clean between shots
is the condition of the muzzle.
Muzzle as received from the barrel company has a machine cut crown with sharp corners which cut thicker patches.
(https://i.ibb.co/YR9bBFm/stretchman-s-muzzle-before.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DVXLfHh)
This is the same rifle/crown after smoothing. This smoothing allows loading tighter combinations without cutting the patches.
(https://i.ibb.co/yYc4Lkk/stretchman-s-muzzle-after.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nnNPh11)
This, is how to do it. With emery or wet/dry paper, rotating your wrist, then turn the barrel 180 degrees and have at it again. That
give a perfectly concentric crown & only takes a few miniutes.
(https://i.ibb.co/k5vpfnb/PB241921.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9cSJLXK)
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Not trying to be argumentive. Just a little info. I swab between shots for many reasons.
Here's one of them.
Watch the first 4 shot group he shoots and what he says about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gF0EQaxRVHE
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OldMtnMan, I get what your saying, and it's reasonable. Mike says with an unwiped barrel he's grouping a half inch left of his group with a wiped barrel. He's decided to use the 'wipe between each shot' method because, as he says, "a .36 fouls quickly". I find that's true if you're using particular lubes in particular climates. I recently, with a new lube mixture, shot 25 unwiped from my .36 with no more difficulty loading that the first and I checked the breech with a scraper along the way and was getting little to no build up. If I can get those results, that's what I choose as if it's a step I can skip, I choose to skip it, and on a gun I hunt squirrels with on a day that the trees are alive with the little critters I want to reload quickly. That said, with my deer guns I do whats best for a one or two shot scenario. Anyway, that's my contribution. To each his own, I says..
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For those in the pro-swab between shots camp, what do you swab with?
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Tow.
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OldMtnMan, I get what your saying, and it's reasonable. Mike says with an unwiped barrel he's grouping a half inch left of his group with a wiped barrel. He's decided to use the 'wipe between each shot' method because, as he says, "a .36 fouls quickly".
With the ball and patch combinations I use in my .36 through my .69, I find none of them foul at all & especially the .36. Rest groups remain consistent, all day long.
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Daryl..........I would love to see you loading a .54 with your tight setup. Please use the gun ramrod and Mink Oil. I just want to see you do it and i'll give it a try again.
Multiple shots with no swabbing would really help too. I can't make that tight of a fit work. Maybe if I see you do it i'll pick up something i'm not doing.
Can you make a video like that?
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For those in the pro-swab between shots camp, what do you swab with?
Thlayli you've uncorked a debate that goes 'round and 'round and 'round here.
Wet patch or tow, this is the key for wiping a dirty bore. Actually you could put tow down dry, it's not going to get stuck like jag/patch can. Tow is used with a worm.
Have you seen any of Bob's new shooter series videos? Maybe he answers some of your questions there.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWok-rzaQZIzJ4fjDSVsPjx3mSzLC5APp
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I don't have a .54, but I do have a .50 that I use .022" in with a .495" ball. I guess we could do another video before the summer is gone, Pete. The one where I'm loading my .45, I'm using WWWF for lube. I think I've sent that one to you, along with Taylor loading his .50 Virginia with .595" ball and .020" patch.
So yeah, I guess we could do another using my Beck with it's tapered skinny rod, no problem and with Tracks Mink Oil.
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Ok, thanks, Daryl.
I know i'm a weak old man now but getting your load down is tough. I guess what I want to see is how much effort you're putting into it.
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OK - I understand. Any roughness in the bore will cause problems. My buddy Len shoots a .54 longrifle that Taylor made him & he uses the
red/lt.blue/white/drkblue striped ticking I measure at .023" with a water based lube and a .535" ball and nothing but his rifle's tapered
rod.
But- yes, I will load with mink oil just for the video. Probably best if we do 3 or 4 shots? When I use the mink oil, the pre-cut patches are soaked
in heated oil, then the excess squeezed out.
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Daryl: will yo post the video on ALR? I believe many of us would love to see it.
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I was going to say some thing else, but this subject has been covered ad nauseam. A tight ball patch combination creates greater pressure than a loose patch ball combination. The more pressure the better the powder will burn, and give you less fowling.
You can get reasonable accuracy with out using a patch at all out to 25 yards. But you will be hard pressed to load the barrel after 2 or 3 shots.
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OK - I understand. Any roughness in the bore will cause problems. My buddy Len shoots a .54 longrifle that Taylor made him & he uses the
red/lt.blue/white/drkblue striped ticking I measure at .023" with a water based lube and a .535" ball and nothing but his rifle's tapered
rod.
But- yes, I will load with mink oil just for the video. Probably best if we do 3 or 4 shots? When I use the mink oil, the pre-cut patches are soaked
in heated oil, then the excess squeezed out.
A rough barrel could have been a problem. This time i'll be using the gun I just bought from Dennis. It's a Rice barrel. He said it has about 500 shots on it. It should be pretty smooth now.
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Check the crown first, Pete. Must be smooth to allow easier loading.
Daryl: will yo post the video on ALR? I believe many of us would love to see it.
I don't know how to do that, Mike. I already have 3 videos but they will not post here without being published to the internet
first. I no longer have a photobucket account that will allow 3rd party posting, although all three of them are in my photobucket account.
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Are you making a Youtube? Just post the link here.
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Check the crown first, Pete. Must be smooth to allow easier loading.
Daryl: will yo post the video on ALR? I believe many of us would love to see it.
I don't know how to do that, Mike. I already have 3 videos but they will not post here without being published to the internet
first. I no longer have a photobucket account that will allow 3rd party posting, although all three of them are in my photobucket account.
Daryl,
If you felt compelled to do it you could send me the video and I could upload it to my youtube, unpublished, and post a link here. The only way to see it would be where it was posted here... just an option.
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Does a .18 patch with a .49 rb sound reasonable? Is there a lube you recommend that works especially well with this combination? I read some of the earlier threads and the tighter fit/less fouling looks like a good way to proceed.
One more question: After cleaning, is a thin coat of Rem oil or CLP okay on the lock and the bore ok to prevent rust? I'd wipe it out/off prior to shooting the next time.
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That's a common load and wouldn't be considered a tight load like Daryl uses.
I use TOW Mink Oil for lube all the time. Some guys here only use it for hunting and use a liquid lube for target work. With a liquid lube you never have to swab. No matter what the ball/patch fit.
I believe those products you mentioned are petroleum lubes. I never use petroleum in a muzzleloader. It doesn't play nice with black powder.
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Thanks Oldmtnman, I had heard that about petroleum and black powder, but then I'd see it recommended in other places. Good thing I have 7 months to get this sorted out.
By liquid lube, I'm guessing alcohol swabs, water or spit?
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Thanks Oldmtnman, I had heard that about petroleum and black powder, but then I'd see it recommended in other places. Good thing I have 7 months to get this sorted out.
By liquid lube, I'm guessing alcohol swabs, water or spit?
No, i'm thinking of something like this.
https://www.jedediah-starr.com/closeup.asp?cid=183&pid=3213&offset=0
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Liquid lubes are usually not useble for hunting, but are specifically used for target work, include spit, water, or some concoctions of
soap and water.
We, in the North, use Winter Windshield Washer Fluid, with a bit of Neetsfoot Oil included in the mix, maybe an ounce to 10 or 12oz.
The oil is to give some lubrication if the solution evaporates from the patches on a particularly hot day in the summer time. The reason
for the oil in the winter time is because mixing up a gallon at a time and it lasts through the winter and summer. The need for Winter
Juice (with alcohol) is if it doesn't have alcohol in it, it freezes when we shoot in the winter time. So - it's winter/summer lube that works
all year - for target work only. For the amount we shoot, it's cheaper than using Neetsfoot oil or Mink Oil. As to accuracy - about the same
but, you have to work up a load, starting low and going up in charge as well as trying different patches until you achieve what accuracy
you are happy with.
When switching to a hunting lube, of which I think track's Mink Oil is best, Neetsfoot oil second best, you need to target your rifle to see
where it shoots with THAT lube. It may need more powder to shoot to the sights & give the same accuracy. This is normal and beneficial
as more powder means higher velocity. Higher velocity means flatter trajectory & longer point blank range.
The really slippery lubes, like Pete posted, will also require their own working up of the load. They will not shoot the same as a less slippery
oil or grease or something water based, which has the lowest lubricity of all, but cleans the best. Trying is the only way - targets, targets, targets.
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Here's another tidbit: Clean with water (consider tow and worm in the place of patches/jag). Not hot water, not warm water-just water. Water is the perfect solvent for black powder residue and using anything else often leads to issues. Heated water often results in flash rusting-which fails to occur with cold water.
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I thoroughly agree. That was the advice from the 19th century best English gunmakers. Simply clean black powder with cold water. Nothing else is needed. I have gone from all sorts of 'stuff' to just cold water and tow in muzzleloaders. Water should be free and tow is almost everlasting if washed afterwards, dried and carded.
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... Good thing I have 7 months to get this sorted out.
By liquid lube, I'm guessing alcohol swabs, water or spit?
Thlayli, with seven months to sort things out, you could search and read up most all the regular debates and advice already written extensively about here in this forum, rather than asking every single new question out loud. That is the beautiful thing about a forum. It can be used like an encyclopedia (if you recall what those were). It's quite possible to come to good answers without ever posting a word.
As to your proposed combo, it depends. It depends on the exact bore measurement, on how the patch was measured-some don't measure out what they are labeled. Balls tend to be fairly consistent though. Many say that swaged balls don't give as good accuracy as cast balls. (multiple reasons for that-just make a note).
If you think you can show up at the range with one patch thickness, one ball size, and one charge amount and get your best load--you've not read enough. It is possible, but not likely. The process takes a minute, but is fun stuff.
Do the crown smoothing that Daryl shows for better loading, also don't reach way up the shaft of the rammer, doing so can snap the stick and impale your hand. Short strokes.
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The last three words of Daryl's last post, are the most important of this whole thread. Targets,targets,targets.
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The last three words of Daryl's last post, are the most important of this whole thread. Targets,targets,targets.
Yep, I missed that one. Not much research needed when D answers your general inquiry.
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Wade you just reiterated another person's reiteration of someone else's post. Seems a little inconsistent with your stance on superfluous posts.
I've done a fair amount of searches/reading of old threads on this and other message boards. I don't see the harm of asking questions in an introductory thread.
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Don't take offense, please. Wade is just trying to help.
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You're right and he's right; and I will try to lurk more and post less.
After this one last question, that is, I really haven't seen too much on this subject: Does a patchbox weaken the stock, to the point where a crack or split is more likely? The stocks on the Southern and Tennessee rifles are fairly slender.
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With wood anything is possible. In the Rifles of Colonial America (RCA) books, I don't recall any photos of cracks developing on account of a patch box. However I have seen a lot of cracked toes on Southern Mountain Rifles and Hawkens.
Mostly what happens with a patch box is that the lid or the inlays around the box will become ill fitting.
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Check back in 200 years. :)
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With wood anything is possible. In the Rifles of Colonial America (RCA) books, I don't recall any photos of cracks developing on account of a patch box. However I have seen a lot of cracked toes on Southern Mountain Rifles and Hawkens.
Mostly what happens with a patch box is that the lid or the inlays around the box will become ill fitting.
Exactly.
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I like Old Eynsford best of all.
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Hey! Shot my first flintlock yesterday, a Dixie poor boy I got off of gunbroker. Thanks again for all the tips. Black Powder Maniacs, TV, and the Bye book had me ready to go. One shot sparked but didn’t fire. I remembered from this thread the advice: Wait! Good advice.
(https://i.ibb.co/s1k8WVF/A539-E91-B-02-EF-4606-B1-DA-B51-E6-FE551-DB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6tVjXW4)
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Thlayli,
Welcome to the addiction! I’m pretty sure black powder smoke is more addictive than crack!
Nice rifle to start with. You still have the TVM on the way?
As has been oft discussed on this forum, keep track of your load development. Change one variable at a time. Powder charge. Patch thickness. Lubricant. Ball size. Work up your best group.
My second BP rifle was a TVM similar to the one you ordered, though I got the Siler instead of the Ketland lock. Wish I’d gotten the Ketland just for esthetics. But the Siler functions very well. She likes 70 grains of 3F Goex, .o18-.020 patch, spit for lube at the range, mink oil in the woods, and .490 ball. I use pillow tick patches.
Don’t go by submission to the Dec postal match - my off hand is horrible! Tight groups at 50 yards from a steady rest!
Paul
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Thlayli,
Welcome to the addiction! I’m pretty sure black powder smoke is more addictive than crack!
Nice rifle to start with. You still have the TVM on the way?
As has been oft discussed on this forum, keep track of your load development. Change one variable at a time. Powder charge. Patch thickness. Lubricant. Ball size. Work up your best group.
My second BP rifle was a TVM similar to the one you ordered, though I got the Siler instead of the Ketland lock. Wish I’d gotten the Ketland just for esthetics. But the Siler functions very well. She likes 70 grains of 3F Goex, .o18-.020 patch, spit for lube at the range, mink oil in the woods, and .490 ball. I use pillow tick patches.
Don’t go by submission to the Dec postal match - my off hand is horrible! Tight groups at 50 yards from a steady rest!
Paul
Yes sir, the TVM Southern is still in the pipeline. I used spit, pillow ticking, and .490 rb. Shot 12 rounds, didn't need to swab or anything. I dfon't have a scale at home, but I'd guess the Dixie rifle is 12 lbs, it seems really heavy. But very happy with it otherwise.
I dropped the lock in a bucket of soapy water just like in BP Maniac's video. Father-in-law said I can't believe you're doing that. Cleaned up real nice. I'd go back to the range this afternoon, but its a little fresh out, about 18 degrees.
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Hi Thlayli. A suggestion, you do not need soap - just cool to cold water and a toothbrush for the lock.
As there is never any fouling inside my locks, I clean the outside only, with water and brush. Some moisture
gets into the spring and tumbler area but is easily blown off, then sprayed copiously with WD40, shaken off
then wiped and replaced on the rifle. Once a year I lubricated the locks contact points with moly grease. This
stays for the year through many cleanings.
18F is -7 C. Not too bad, but now for us old folks, a bit too chilly for shooting now.