AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Marcruger on June 09, 2020, 09:17:22 PM
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Hi Folks,
This is a follow up to the earlier post about bouncing the rod off of the ball versus pressing it home.
Carl Young responded to the bear hunting post, with reference to the following. On the last image, check out how he said the rifle was loaded. Pressed in place without bouncing the rod off the ball. This is from the mid 1800s.
(https://i.ibb.co/h7Lb8ST/Carl.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YRPmjxV)
(https://i.ibb.co/Yknjm3d/Capture-Magazine-Name.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/0QFVCBh/Capture.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JCyFvx5)
(https://i.ibb.co/NsXCFbY/Description-of-Rifle-Loading-Period.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hyk9gw8)
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Very cool.
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I experimented with pushing the ball onto the powder as consistent as I could. Then shot a 5 shot group.
Then I loaded 5 more with bouncing the rod on the ball until the rod jumped up to the same height.
I couldn't see a lick of difference in accuracy. Try it yourself and see what you get.
One advantage of bouncing is you don't need to get your body near the muzzle. Just in case you have an ember.
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I have some guns, on some days, that, though I can shoot a few dozen without wiping, needs a bit more than the sharp ramrod tip and my poor hand can manage without a tap or two. I just try to be consistent on those days..... One of the Sapergia boys have a handy dandy piece of antler that they put over the tip and give er a slight pop. I'm considering that because after a full day I'm sporting bruises from that last inch....
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Never been a "bouncer". After seating I might tap the ball once but that's it. I just seat till I hear/feel a slight "crunch".
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What Hanshi says is true. No reason to bounce your rod up and down.
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You could also say there's no need not to bounce too. It's easy to do and doesn't hurt a thing. It might be safer too.
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I just seat till I hear/feel a slight "crunch".
Ditto.
Mike
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Wow, this again!
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Yes - exactly & again, I have seen people on the loading line "throwing the rod onto the ball until it almost bounced out of the muzzle" thinking
that is the proper way of loading.
The throwing of the rod onto the ball 3 times - is military loading by the numbers to ensure the wadded up paper ctg. with ball was on the powder when loading
in a fouled bore. It was also noted that the development of the Tige and Delvinge chambers needed no special loading techniques to expand the
'ball' into the rifling, due to the normal practice of throwing the rod 3 times onto the ball when loading (by the numbers).
That a hunter did not do this, is or would be quite common, I would suspect.
As to an accuracy change in doing it or not, a distance of 50 or more yards would likely show a difference & especially in point of impact.
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For the record. I don't bounce the rod when I load. However, I was surprised my accuracy didn't change when I did it.
I didn't bounce the rod that high. The harder you throw the rod down the higher it bounces. I felt once the rod bounced at all the ball was seated enough and further bouncing wouldn't accomplish anything. I think it's important to also have a tip on the rod that fits the ball fully. If it was too small it would probably leave a dent in the ball. That might happen even with pushing the ball down and not bouncing. I'm not sure. I guess that would depend on how hard you seat the ball.
Anyway, it's an interesting subject and i'm not convinced bouncing does any harm if done right. It's just a different way to load. One reason I wouldn't do it for hunting is because it's noisy and not a natural sound to the game. It could warn them you're there.
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I started making tapered rods where the metal was back in the ramrod hole and the tip was rounded wood. Did this for all my rifles. Didn't really know whether bouncing with a wooden tip made a difference, so I caught one of my shots on the way out the muzzle, examined the surface, put it back in the trajectory and let it finish going down range.
Unfortunately, I woke up before I saw it hit the target
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I know a couple of guys who "bounce" the rod and that's fine. It does no harm, I'm pretty sure, but I just consider it unnecessary. It's just a personal choice and that's about it. Consistency is the main thing.
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Old Mtnman...For the record. I don't bounce the rod when I load. However, I was surprised my accuracy didn't change when I did it.
That seems to be true. Has anybody considered the fact that the reason to bounce has to do with the extensive fouling down by the breech?
On trail walks I find myself swabbing every fifth shot because of that and loading becomes so easy I don't have to bounce.
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This may seem an odd question coming from me. I keep hearing people grousing about "crud rings" hampering their loading. I shoot a lot (2-3 times a week) and have never experienced this. Is it caused by high humidity? Here in the Pacific N.W. I just don't see it. I sometimes shoot 25-30 shots without even wiping, let alone having problems seating the ball. This is everything from 40-58 callers.
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Yes, I feel humidity has a lot too do with it along with the type of patch lube being used.
Sometimes I get build up , sometimes I don’t.
On the days when I do, I’ll just swab more frequently.
It’s really not that big of a deal , if you stay ahead of it.
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Muskrat,
I think low humidity contributes to fouling build up.
More than that though, Is lube, and patch and ball combo.
I live where the humidity is usually single digit, and lots of guys have the problem here. A tight combo, and liquid lube take care of it for me. The only time fouling builds up is if you let the gun sit too long.
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Muskrat,
I think low humidity contributes to fouling build up.
More than that though, Is lube, and patch and ball combo.
I live where the humidity is usually single digit, and lots of guys have the problem here. A tight combo, and liquid lube take care of it for me. The only time fouling builds up is if you let the gun sit too long.
Exactly. I would say that after shooting, if you don't reload right away, within a couple minutes, the soft, damp fouling in the bore will dry out and become hard. With a right combination to start with, this is virtually only one shot's fouling. The bore is wiped as you load the next one. With a thick damp/wet patch, you can usually load it, even in a dry bore, but I would not trust that shot to hit where it's supposed to hit.
Oft times at Hefley Creek, the humidity will be 6% or 7%, yet none of us experience loading problems due to the snug ball and patch combinations.
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Daryl..........Is that snug fit you use hard on wooden ramrods? I tried your formula once and swore the ramrod was going to give out. Even taking a short grip which made it harder to load.
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I have some guns, on some days, that, though I can shoot a few dozen without wiping, needs a bit more than the sharp ramrod tip and my poor hand can manage without a tap or two. I just try to be consistent on those days..... One of the Sapergia boys have a handy dandy piece of antler that they put over the tip and give er a slight pop. I'm considering that because after a full day I'm sporting bruises from that last inch....
My starter handle is osage, and following the Bros. Sapergia example I put a dimple in that handle for the same purpose. Highly recommended (for the folks who use starters) -we've all got some scar tissue Bob. ;)
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Well when some folks claim that there is no difference in accuracy from the just seated ball to the bounced rod load, is it possible that some people have less expectations for an accurate load? It has been discussed here before, what is your idea of an accurate load and the definitions varied alot. Min. of game animal and Min. of angle can be quite different but both will do at say 50 yds. for hunting but for target work Min,. of angle will work better for that and hunting. Min. of game animal groups at 50 yds. will put you in last place at just about any NMLRA bench, xstix or chunk gun match.
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My accuracy won me a lot of BP shoots. When I tried bouncing it didn't change my accuracy.
What do you thinking bouncing would do that would make the load less accurate?
When I say I like to sneak is close to game for a shot. It means my hunting skills are ok. It doesn't mean my accuracy is bad.
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Hammering - from "throwing the rod" (words from military instructions) compress the powder as well as grinding it into powder/dust, all of which change the
burning characteristics of the powder. Would you expect the same powder charge of 1F, 2F and 3F - or any combination of those, to all shoot into the same group?
Might do at 25 yards, but not beyond that, I'd wager.
Notice the hole - that fits over the end of the wiping stick to give it a little 'punch' with your palm on the starter handle, to seat the ball onto the powder with the same
force each time. In shooting ML's, "consistency, though art a jewel".
I also put a ring of leather under the antler for a bumper.
(https://i.ibb.co/WPTjYB2/Antlertippedstarter.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nnWt5QL)
These are all, "holed" to fit the rod's end.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZT125ts/P1142038.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ysB4tGT)
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Well crazy me but IMHO I just dont think a deformed ball will fly as true as a non-deformed ball. But if the amount of accuracy you get with a deformed ball is enough for the shooter and his capabilities I suppose it,s good enough. Just seems to me the animal, if hunting deserves your best shot.
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It depends on how hard you throwing the ramrod down. Some keep doing it until the rod is bouncing back up a foot. I'm sure that dent the ball. Especially, if the ramrod tip is made for a smaller ball.
I was just looking for a small bounce. About an inch. That seemed like enough to show me the powder was compressed and I saw no need to bounce higher. I did an experiment last night. I still have the modern muzzleloader. The buyer hasn't picked it up yet. I loaded a charge of Goex in it and a PRB. I push it down and then bounce te rod to 1". I could then remove th breech plug and push out the load. The ball was in the same condition as it was before loading. I had a perfect fit between the rod tip and ball. I think that and not bouncing too high is what kept the ball round.
Let's not forget we shoot cast balls with a sprue and it doesn't affect accuracy. I'm not saying we should bounce the ramrod. I don't. However, I don't think it's so bad as some claim it is. It could be if done wrong.
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What you did, Pete was not throwing the rod on the ball 3 times. That was the military rule & was done with a steel
rod. Big difference. Too, the steel rod, seems to me, was enlarged and cupped on the end, so it would not flatten the
ball but would most certainly compress the powder, changing it's consistency in shooting. I mentioned all of this to
simply note some 'people' are "teaching" beginners to do this to the point the wooden rod is almost bouncing out of
the barrel. THAT is not good & possibly dangerous in hot climates.
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Yes, you're right. Another thing I thought of the way I did it. There's some overlap of the patch material on the top of the ball. That would help cushion the blow a little bit.
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I've never knowingly bounced my ramrod on a ball. I have loaded and shot so many times that I just seat the ball and know when it's right or not.
I don't think it's a real negative thing to do though.
Once on a raw and windy day in November I was easing along an old logging road when a doe ran across the road in front of me. I got ready just in case and shot a doe when it followed the first. I immediately loaded my rifle and found I could only seat the ball a little over halfway. I walked to a nearby tree and holding the RR with my left hand and the rifle in the right I struct the tree with the rr until my line on the rr showed it was fully seated. That's what I call "hammering in the ball".
On another day while hunting in a swamp bottom I shot a buck. I tried loading my rifle and could'nt start the ball. The butt just pressed down into the mud every time I applied pressure. I ended up standing on a fallen oak and was able to finish loading there.
Shoot enough deer and you experience a lot of stuff. I wouldn't think twice about bouncing the rr a little bit.
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I'd probably swab before doing that.
The term bouncing is done after the ball is seated on the powder. It's just a different way to compress the ball on the powder. Not to get the ball down the bore.
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IMO, crud rings come from patch lubes with ingredient that won’t tolerate high heat. I have shot many trail walks that have between twenty, and thirty, shooting stations without swabbing, using bear grease, or venison tallow, or a combination of the two. Most of the modern patch lubes have one or more ingredient in it that won’t tolerate high heat, and or pressure.
The other crud ring creator is a rough bore at the breech, from shooting very heavy charges, or phony black powder substitutes.
Hungry Horse