AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: mdo1998 on June 13, 2020, 11:43:51 PM
-
I’ve inherited the attached, my first flintlock long gun. I can find no makers mark or inspection marks. I assume Pennsylvania made, early 1800’s and would welcome any input. My question, what is the purpose of the exterior threads on the muzzle end of the barrel. I’ve searched and have not found these feature elsewhere, any thoughts?
Thanks,
Matt
(https://i.ibb.co/K6zRpqg/5966-F3-E0-AEC0-4980-8089-416-A6-C85-CD96.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BLKd5ZJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/wBgdqcP/A9-D25794-525-A-49-D3-8083-DDE02872-F68-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QpQJVDT)
(https://i.ibb.co/mJZNLKz/73-EB0-E47-9469-4623-9102-1-C35420763-A9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b1wbSVd)
(https://i.ibb.co/qmgQMth/04317-E0-A-AFF5-4-E25-94-AD-1176-EEE2-A7-DB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZcgD6nv)
-
Welcome to the forum .This looks like a Numerich Minuteman from the late 70s. The barrel scares me, looks like a piece of black iron pipe. Can you post more full length pics.? I had one like this starting out in 1976. I definitely WOULD NOT SHOOT IT,until more can be determined about the barrel.
Maybe others on here later will chime in.
This is s great place to learn and advance your knowledge in our hobby/lifestyle. Best regards, Dave F 8) 8)
Barrel should be full octagon from breech to muzzle.
-
Take it to a reputable gunsmith, do not fire the gun, as Mountain Man suggests. It very definitely looks like a tapered pipe thread.
-
The inner dimensions of the barrel end are octagon, the first 10” or so of the barrel are octagon, and then you can see a line where it converts to a round barrel. If the gun is not an antique someone has gone to a lot of trouble to produce a fake, as this gun is full of patina, I can’t imagine the stock is new, let alone the other components, but maybe rather a barrel repair, is that possible? If a fake, it would seem cutting off the pipe threads would have been Been fairly simple, so was wondering if any purpose would exist to have had threads.
(https://i.ibb.co/wsXftdv/82803-D88-862-D-4239-9590-D03650-B21332.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JQ49Zch)
(https://i.ibb.co/2P6mSHw/9-BD2-A3-D5-E104-4708-9-C6-D-B480-A7-A16578.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zb5jFD1)
(https://i.ibb.co/27ZWPMB/1-F9-A00-E5-8189-4-CA6-8984-C62-AF348-A2-E8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yn4d5kJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/W5CzJCB/D1-B2-AEBC-E5-C3-492-D-AD12-CE442-B78170-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LRKg7K9)
-
WOW, under some proposed laws in VA that is a threaded barrel and by definition it is an "assault rifle". Who would have thunk it!
-
Matt, it appears to me that the bore is seven sided, not octagonal. Don't know if that is significant or not.
Are other any other unusual modifications to the gun? I once saw a rifle at a gun show that had the barrel threaded to accept a light socket so it could be used as a floor lamp. Almost bought it out of pity.
Dale H
-
Look at the space between the nose cap and the barrel, it looks like it was supposed to have an extension screwed on. Maybe an attempt to add a false muzzle.
Dennis
-
Looking at the lock and barrel it looks like a decorator piece. The barrel probably screws together at the transition. NPT at the muzzle is scary.
-
I’ve seen old long guns converted to a lamp before. Perhaps this one too?
-
Can we see a better view of the lock? Might help to identify it.
Dale H
-
The barrel is old and rifled. I have seen old barrels that were threaded like that and a muzzle ring was screwed on...I'll see if I can find pics, my old english breech loading gun had this feature. I don't believe the rest of the gun is old.
-
I appreciate the pictures are not great, but I can assure all this gun is old, I collect lots of antiques, this is not a fake or reproduction. I have found numerous revolutionary war period guns for sale with “octagonal to round” barrels, with similar transition marks in the casting, Such as Richard Wilson of London, also the “committee” guns of the period were often not marked for safety concerns, do we have any exerts on this period who could provide some feedback? It’s possible this gun has been altered or modified, but it’s not a reproduction.
-
The people who replied to your post are some of the most knowledgeable on antique civilian longarms from the 18th & 19th century. I confess that I am the exception as my forte are U.S. Springfield Armory firearms. Given that, it is, as you obviously recognize, very unusual to have a barrel with what appear to tapered o.d. threads at the muzzle.
Anyway, I photoshopped one of your photos to get a close-up of the lock. Perhaps someone will recognize the style lock.
(https://i.ibb.co/9n2kqtf/5966-F3-E0-AEC0-4980-8089-416-A6-C85-CD96.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
PS I'm assuming you checked the inside of the lock for a name.
-
I think it might well be an old barrel that had the threaded muzzle for a lamp extension, or maybe a way to mount it on the wall or something.
Some pictures that actually show the gun to better advantage would certainly help it telling what it might be.
Click on this link to get an idea of the type of pictures that help in determining what's what with these old guns. https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=3845.0
John
-
All, I really appreciate everyone's interest and help. I've loaded some better pics below. I have seen a gun from a Lancaster, PA gunsmith named William Holtzworth with a near identically shaped lock plate and similar "leaf" stamp, also the 8 pointed stars are a known German symbol so maybe these two clues point to central PA production, I've also now seen muskets made with barrel rings as well, as someone noted earlier, it sure seems the gap on the end with the brass support indicates something is missing, maybe some sort of screwed-on ring. Ok, more pics below, help is appreciated.
(https://i.ibb.co/t85r49B/View-recent-photos-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bzn9Pk1)
(https://i.ibb.co/c1Ppjx8/IMG-2585.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t4SN932)
(https://i.ibb.co/KKZYpCs/IMG-2586.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2Z2w1XM)
(https://i.ibb.co/dWkfWym/IMG-2587.jpg) (https://ibb.co/w0pd01c)
(https://i.ibb.co/09ZTK2x/IMG-2588.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WzFZ05L)
(https://i.ibb.co/qkCNZN9/IMG-2589.jpg) (https://ibb.co/V2xgKgD)
(https://i.ibb.co/0tpyZJZ/IMG-2590.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hfxFH8H)
(https://i.ibb.co/Xk7TqH5/IMG-2591.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zHXwzd2)
(https://i.ibb.co/BjbVc1m/IMG-2592.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d6F0jhS)
(https://i.ibb.co/wNgCZyq/IMG-2593.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z6XKRdr)
(https://i.ibb.co/wQdWfsq/IMG-2594.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t2Hs9X6)
(https://i.ibb.co/P9NPcKW/IMG-2596.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2syCvxM)
(https://i.ibb.co/9yBCzPM/IMG-2597.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nQ45ZpW)
(https://i.ibb.co/xDY3szH/IMG-2598.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZVSNJcm)
(https://i.ibb.co/zrf3nXw/IMG-2599.jpg) (https://ibb.co/808yKrV)
(https://i.ibb.co/9WqYCLT/IMG-2600.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TtHhFS8)
(https://i.ibb.co/7GswrWS/IMG-2601.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nDxHQcw)
(https://i.ibb.co/r5Y2KT7/IMG-2602.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xzWqKPC)
(https://i.ibb.co/HhVjb5s/IMG-2603.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FHKFyRM)
(https://i.ibb.co/C6dWwxS/IMG-2604.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BGDwf8Y)
(https://i.ibb.co/dD7yyB4/IMG-2605.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yqVJJ0F)
(https://i.ibb.co/xgggGNy/IMG-2606.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DMMMkZN)
(https://i.ibb.co/X3JHKZ7/IMG-2607.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4YNkXZ8)
(https://i.ibb.co/5RRHvcw/IMG-2608.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rwwrMyN)
-
I would bet money it was once a lamp, see the hole in the buttplate for the cord?
Dennis
-
I think Dennis may be on to something. (Of course, I was the first to suggest a lamp).
Have you measured the depth of the hole in the butt plate? Does in connect to the bore?
Dale H
-
I’ve stripped out a single conductor of electrical wire, nice and stiff, and inserted through the bottom hole, it inserts into a cavity about six inches in depth, about half way up the rear stock at most, far from the barrel, I’ve also inserted a small light to see if light would appear when looking down the barrel, no light can be seen, I really don’t believe the rear cavity connects thru to the barrel.
-
The overall length photo shows that it has nice lines.
The rear sight looks kind of too far to the rear. Maybe the barrel was shortened, at the breech, a little at some point without relocating the sight.
Are there two lock screws or one?
-
Interesting piece of history here at many levels and over many years, indeed. To confirm the lamp hypothesis, one could blow into the hole in the brass plate at the back of the stock to see if air comes freely out the muzzle. (Note my reluctance to call the plate by its usual name. I also don’t want to encourage blowing into the muzzle of any gun.)
If mud daubers have plugged the cord channel, removing the lock would probably reveal the hole in the breech plug and wrist, and might even show the tail of the sear missing because it was in the way of the cord passage. That would explain why the gun is at full cock in all the photos.
Once that is confirmed, it is time to discuss the merits of this old original piece of American and family history. At a significant time in some family’s history (hopefully mdo1998’s family) this plain working gun very likely helped feed a lot of people. When it got left in the corner of the kitchen and grew obsolete and rusty. somebody could well have thrown it out in the junk pit behind the barn, never to be seen again, and we wouldn’t be cerebrating over it. But some cleaver enterprising descendent preserved it as a useful item, for which I and mdo1998 are rightfully grateful.
Assuming the lamp hypothesis is correct, can anybody look past the modifications (or abuse if you wish) and tell mdo1998 anything about the rifle’s origins?
What should be done with it now? I would avoid cleaning it up much. But should the lock be fixed, the added cavity in the brass plate at the back of the stock be filled, and the pipe threads be dealt with? Or should the modifications be kept as part of the family history of this piece?
I am glad this rifle was rescued and that mdo1998 has it and is interested in it. Go for it, guys, and let's help mdo1998 out! :)
Bill Paton
-
With the new photos I withdraw my cannon muzzle ring theory. Doesn't look right for that.
-
Silencer, 1800 style? Ha Ha!
Dick
-
Its amazing what more and better pics will reveal. I stands corrected, aint a Numerich rifle at all. Definitely an old timer. Yep, seen it rite off!!
What a story thisn has. Thanks for the new pics. Dave F 8) 8)
-
I’m new to this, so let me apologize in advance; so the recommendation is to remove the lock plate and take look inside? To do this, do I simply back out the single screw on the opposite side, if so, does this release the lock plate, hammer, and so forth as a single unit which then pulls out exposing the rear of the barrel?
Thanks,
Matt
-
Hi Matt,
Thanks for posting this interesting piece. So many of us wish we owned a rifle that belonged to one of our ancestors.
Yes, remove the lock screw and you should be able to gently wiggle the lock a bit and free it from it's mortise. Keep your fingers clear of the area forward of the cock (hammer) just in case it decides to release as you work it out of the stock. It should come out as a single unit. If the lock does not want to come out, you can screw the lock screw back in a little and tap the head lightly to encourage the lock to come out.
-Ron
-
Matt,
You have the right idea about lock removal. The flint cock, frizzen (steel), and lock plate should come out as a unit, complete with the lock innards. If the cock seems to be spring-loaded, you have a mainspring intact, and the cock could possibly spring forward suddenly and with force, when you work the lock out of the rifle. If the lock doesn’t want to come out, screw the lock bolt back in about two revolutions and tap the head gently until the lock moves sideways.
Another thought about the hole in the butt: If it seems to run parallel with the barrel, it may have been the receptacle for a base-mounted stiff rod to hold the lamp upright. The cord would then have had to pass down the outside of the gun, in which case you will not find a cord channel through the breech plug and stock wrist. If the hole points toward the center of the wrist, than I would expect you will find a cord channel. An oil lamp could have been mounted on the pipe thread, doing away with the cord, but that would be a new one in my experience. Hopefully the barrel hasn’t been drilled and the lock altered.
Was this an old family gun, or a later pick-up before you inherited it?
If the breech hasn’t been drilled out, I would consider getting the lock to work and not doing much else to preserve the gun. The lamp story is part of the gun’s history by now.
Bill Paton
PS: After my slow typing, I see Ron has caught his thumb between a flint cock and lock plate, too ::)
-
Matt, I am dying to know - have you removed the lock?
Dale H