AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: John Morris on June 18, 2020, 05:16:29 AM
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Dear folks, I will soon be the proud owner of my very first Flintlock rifle, soon I will have this in my hands. https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=60566.0
I'd like to thank 120RIR for helping me and being a pleasant fellow to deal with, thanks sir!
When I first came aboard here a couple months ago, I was dead set on jumping right in and building the first flintlock I would fire, but I had some reasonable back room feedback from a member here I'd like to thank, Art Fleener (Snapper), while Art was very encouraging regarding building my own first rifle, he also laid out some good advice, and based on that advice he got me to thinking, I need to cool my jets and perhaps get a rifle in my hand, and perhaps carry it around for awhile and fire it, get to know how these work, and then I'd be in a better position to build, and that made complete sense to me, while Art was not saying that directly, he did spur my mind to think a bit more on it, and my gut was telling me to get one in my hands, examine it, shoot it, sight it in, etc. I am glad I am going this route. Plus, I really want to shoot, now! Not a year from now when the rifle build would be complete.
I also purchased a couple great books that you all advised me on as well, "Flintlocks, A Practical Guide for their Use and Appreciation (Eric A. Bye)", and "The Gunsmith of Grenville County (Peter A. Alexander)".
Also, I joined NMLRA and The Contemporary Longrifle Association, I have already made contact with an NMLRA charter locally to walk on the range and meet the folks, super happy about that.
I am about a third way through the gunsmith book, and I have read through much of the practical guide book, now that I am ready to have a rifle in my hands, the practical guide book is even more exciting to read now.
Given the fact that I am reading, and studying, does anyone here have any tips or words of wisdom you could impart with a complete greenie muzzle loader guy?
I do have a few questions, and I could probably find the answers in the practical guide book. But I am interested in your feedback if you have the time.
- How do I know what size patch I need?
- Can I purchase balls that are exactly 50 caliber, sometimes I read you guys talking about balls a tad larger or smaller depending on type of shooting.
- What would be a good powder to use? Probably a highly subjective question.
- I have read a good load to start out with is the same size of the caliber, so I would start out with 50 grains for my 50 cal?
- My book says I need to clean my guns bore with a swab about ever three or so shots at the range, is this excessive?
Just a few of my questions, and thanks to anyone in advance for chiming in, appreciate it greatly.
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Join a club and find a mentor to help you get started.
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How do I know what size patch I need?
The ball/patch combination is what counts. I’d start with a .490 ball and a 0.022” patch or a .495 ball and a 0.018” patch. You’ll know what works when you have a combo you can load and the patches stay intact with no cuts or burn through.
Can I purchase balls that are exactly 50 caliber, sometimes I read you guys talking about balls a tad larger or smaller depending on type of shooting.
See above.
What would be a good powder to use? Probably a highly subjective question.
Most powders are great. You’ll get more shots per pound with FFFG.
I have read a good load to start out with is the same size of the caliber, so I would start out with 50 grains for my 50 cal?
I’d start with 60 grains and go up or down 5 grains. Ball/patch combo is #1 in my view then charge.
My book says I need to clean my guns bore with a swab about ever three or so shots at the range, is this excessive?
Most folks either develop a load that doesn’t need wiping at all (Daryl Sapergia load) that works because it’s tight enough and wet enough to basically wipe the bore while loading
OR
A target load fir the range where the barrel is wiped every shot. Wiping every 3 shots would give different bore conditions for each load. That’s not conducive to accuracy.
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Unless you're lucky enough to have a shop near you to buy black powder. You'll have to do like most of us and buy it online. It can be shipped directly to your home.
There are a few combinations of what powder to use on a flintlock. Some use 2F for charge and 4F for the pan. I like to keep is simple and only carry one powder. So, I use 3F in the pan and for the main charge. I have it all in one powder horn and it makes it easier. Keep in mind you can't use any the fake substitute powders. You have to use real black powder in a flintlock.
I buy mine from here. They have good prices and low shipping and Hazmat fees.
https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501
If there's one flaw in the GPR rifle it's the lock. I owned a couple of them and didn't like the locks. You can buy an aftermarket lock from L&R that will be a very close fit. You might have to trim a little wood to get it to fit but it will give you a little taste of building a gun.
I agree with Rich. Start with 60gr of powder and increase it in small steps to find the most accurate load. A .490 ball and .018-.020 patch is a good place to start. Tighter is better. I don't think your gu has been shot much. The GPR won't get the best accuracy until a 100 or more shots is put through it. The rifling comes a little rough and needs shooting to smooth it out. You can speed up the process by using a compound like JB's to smooth the bore.
Have fun with your new gun.
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Well done John Morris. Now, look at the muzzle and if it looks like this, it will cut the patches as you load.
That is not good for accuracy or for clean shooting:
(https://i.ibb.co/MctYpDJ/stretchman-s-muzzle-before.jpg) (https://ibb.co/48X6MZ0)
You want it to look like this, nice and smooth to allow the ball and patch to smoothly transition into the bore
as you load:
(https://i.ibb.co/0B2GV9g/stretchman-s-muzzle-after.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9wgr34F)
You make it look like the second picture by doing this, rotating your wrist back and forth:
Rotate the barrel 90 to 180 degrees every 15 seconds of so. This process only takes a couple minutes.
I use 320 emery cloth, or 320 wet/dry paper, done dry.
(https://i.ibb.co/BPvj6gm/PB241921.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TTJR0HZ)
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All I can add is that should you experience lock problems then rely on this site for help. There are lots and lots of "gun doctors" ready and willing to help. All advice above is spot on.
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Join a club and find a mentor to help you get started.
Thanks smylee. Got a club shoot going to in a few weeks, talked to the president of the club a few days ago and he was very open and welcoming. He leads the Laguna Mountain Men and they seem like a lively bunch. http://www.lagunamountainrendezvous.com/index.html
They shoot every third Sunday and they got a big 10 day rendezvous in October, can't wait.
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All I can add is that should you experience lock problems then rely on this site for help. There are lots and lots of "gun doctors" ready and willing to help. All advice above is spot on.
Hanshi, great bunch here indeed, I can't believe the knowledge that is shown here, incredible.
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Well done John Morris. Now, look at the muzzle and if it looks like this, it will cut the patches as you load.
That is not good for accuracy or for clean shooting:
Daryl, can't thank you enough for this tip, and thanks much for taking the time to put up the images showing the technique, this will be one of the first things I do to my gun if needed. Thanks again sir.
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Have fun with your new gun.
Pete, thanks for all the great advice you given, appreciate it much. And thanks for the link!
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How do I know what size patch I need?
The ball/patch combination is what counts. I’d start with a .490 ball and a 0.022” patch or a .495 ball and a 0.018” patch. You’ll know what works when you have a combo you can load and the patches stay intact with no cuts or burn through.
Can I purchase balls that are exactly 50 caliber, sometimes I read you guys talking about balls a tad larger or smaller depending on type of shooting.
See above.
What would be a good powder to use? Probably a highly subjective question.
Most powders are great. You’ll get more shots per pound with FFFG.
I have read a good load to start out with is the same size of the caliber, so I would start out with 50 grains for my 50 cal?
I’d start with 60 grains and go up or down 5 grains. Ball/patch combo is #1 in my view then charge.
My book says I need to clean my guns bore with a swab about ever three or so shots at the range, is this excessive?
Most folks either develop a load that doesn’t need wiping at all (Daryl Sapergia load) that works because it’s tight enough and wet enough to basically wipe the bore while loading
OR
A target load fir the range where the barrel is wiped every shot. Wiping every 3 shots would give different bore conditions for each load. That’s not conducive to accuracy.
Rich you addressed it all, thanks sir, appreciate it greatly. I have dived into these forums more and found some great topics started by newbie shooters as well, I am sorry that I have asked the same questions here that seems to have been asked before.
Can't thank you all enough!
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I like to keep is simple and only carry one powder. So, I use 3F in the pan and for the main charge. I have it all in one powder horn and it makes it easier. Keep in mind you can't use any the fake substitute powders. You have to use real black powder in a flintlock.
Pete, the 3F at https://www.grafs.com/goex states (Pistol). Does it matter? Thanks
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It will be fine. A lot of us use 3F in our large bore guns.
It's possible that your gun won't be as accurate with 3F and will like 2F better. I've never actually run into that but it happens. Advantages of 3F over 2F are more power, less fouling, cheaper because you can use less for the same fps as 2F, ignites easier/faster.
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Welcome John Morris.
It appears you'll get is all sorted soon enough. You appear to have good enthusiasm and attitude and that's plenty enough. Every single thing cannot be learned all at once. There are the basics, and then there's a lot of nuance and the nuances tend to have widely varying opinions/practices. Each shooting session will answer some questions while raising others. Enjoy!
Powder first.
W
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It will be fine. A lot of us use 3F in our large bore guns.
It's possible that your gun won't be as accurate with 3F and will like 2F better. I've never actually run into that but it happens. Advantages of 3F over 2F are more power, less fouling, cheaper because you can use less for the same fps as 2F, ignites easier/faster.
Thanks Pete for your help!
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Welcome John Morris.
It appears you'll get is all sorted soon enough. You appear to have good enthusiasm and attitude and that's plenty enough. Every single thing cannot be learned all at once. There are the basics, and then there's a lot of nuance and the nuances tend to have widely varying opinions/practices. Each shooting session will answer some questions while raising others. Enjoy!
Powder first.
W
Wade, thanks for your sage advice. Appreciate it. I'm a young 54 years old and to have something come along and excite me like this, is pretty danged cool at my age, never stop learning, never stop teaching, keeps us feeling young. Retiring in about 6 years and this new interest will keep me busy and outdoors in retirement, woodworking is an indoor close to home thing, I can get wrapped up in that easily, but to have something to head outside for, is a great plus.
Cheers!
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Well done John Morris. Now, look at the muzzle and if it looks like this, it will cut the patches as you load.
That is not good for accuracy or for clean shooting:
Daryl, can't thank you enough for this tip, and thanks much for taking the time to put up the images showing the technique, this will be one of the first things I do to my gun if needed. Thanks again sir.
John - you are most welcome. BTW - I stopped being a "sir" when I retired from Corrections. The technique is simple and makes a world of difference
to the loading.
As for balls, both .490" an d.495" are available. To start with, the .490's might be better until you get your regime down and some pounds of powder's use
behind you. The larger ball will theoretical give better accuracy, but might be stiffer loading and the difference would not be apparent at this stage, for sure.
Some folks have been shooting a lot of years and still use a ball .010" undersized. Note that a slightly ticker patch is recommended when doing this, to take
up the windage.
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John - you are most welcome. BTW - I stopped being a "sir" when I retired from Corrections. The technique is simple and makes a world of difference
to the loading.
Ha! You got it Daryl. And thanks for the clarification on the ball and patch size, I am on TOW right now ordering a few things, just in time your advice. Thanks!
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Goex powder, man I had a wake up call just now, shopping for it and I see the final price to my door, the powder started out at 20 bucks then by the time it gets to my door it's 42 bucks.
Fixed-Rate Shipping: $9.95
Hazardous Materials Fee: $12.50
Subtotal: $42.44
Graf and Sons, I guess if we don't have a source nearby then this is just the way it is.
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Goex powder, man I had a wake up call just now, shopping for it and I see the final price to my door, the powder started out at 20 bucks then by the time it gets to my door it's 42 bucks.
Fixed-Rate Shipping: $9.95
Hazardous Materials Fee: $12.50
Subtotal: $42.44
Graf and Sons, I guess if we don't have a source nearby then this is just the way it is.
Sign up for email ads from your favorite suppliers. They all do free hazmat fees and sometimes free shipping several times a year.
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Sign up for email ads from your favorite suppliers. They all do free hazmat fees and sometimes free shipping several times a year.
Thanks Bob! It also appears if you purchase more than one jug of the powder, they only apply the hazmat and shipping once.
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I didn't think you could order just one pound from Graf's? They used to have a 5lb minimum. The price per pound gets better the more you buy.
I just ordered a bunch of Swiss powder. Its price will get your attention but it is the best powder we can buy. At least in my opinion.
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I didn't think you could order just one pound from Graf's? They used to have a 5lb minimum. The price per pound gets better the more you buy.
I just ordered a bunch of Swiss powder. Its price will get your attention but it is the best powder we can buy. At least in my opinion.
Haven't ordered yet Pete, I'll check on that fact though, I decided to purchase two anyway, since they only get ya for one HAZMAT and one shipping fee per shipment.
On the average, can someone tell me how long a lb lasts? Or how many shots?
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Welp, just tried to order my measly 2lbs o powder, looks they require a minimum 4lb order.
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Order 4 lbs. You'll use it up. With 4 lbs the Hazmat and shipping fees are divided by 4 per lb.
4 lbs should be about $110 to your door or $27.50 lb. Buy more and it's gets cheaper by the lb. Some places are free Hazmat and shipping if you buy a case. Split the cost with your buddies for a case. Join a club and buy powder from them. They buy in volume.
Now, go blow some smoke. :)
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Thanks Pete, need to blow some real smoke right? Been blowing enough of it already far too long! ;D
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John, its a good thing they leveraged you into buying a little more powder. The first year I started shooting a muzzleloader I burned sixteen pounds of powder, and according to CVA wore the gun out. Good luck.
Hungry Horse
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John, there are 7000 grains by weight to a pound. So if you're charging the barrel at 70 grains then roughly 100 shots to that pound. Roughly that is because we tend to load by volume and not by weight. Also that doesn't consider priming.
You can use that figure to get an idea of how many shots you'll get from a pound. While you're at it you can convert your ball size to gauge and you'll know how many balls you can cast from a pound of lead. Your 50 cal is about 38 balls to the pound or 38 bore/gauge. (.491=38g)
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John, its a good thing they leveraged you into buying a little more powder. The first year I started shooting a muzzleloader I burned sixteen pounds of powder, and according to CVA wore the gun out. Good luck.
Hungry Horse
Hungry Horse, I thought this muzzle loading ammo was supposed to be easier on the pocket book than those little ol brass thingys some folks shoot. I'm still sure it is, just haven't done my math yet on it. ;D
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John, there are 7000 grains by weight to a pound. So if you're charging the barrel at 70 grains then roughly 100 shots to that pound. Roughly that is because we tend to load by volume and not by weight. Also that doesn't consider priming.
You can use that figure to get an idea of how many shots you'll get from a pound. While you're at it you can convert your ball size to gauge and you'll know how many balls you can cast from a pound of lead. Your 50 cal is about 38 balls to the pound or 38 bore/gauge. (.491=38g)
Wade, thanks for that information, I would like to cast my own for sure. Your information couldn't come at a better time, thanks!
Guess I'll be using 3F for everything at this point, just to keep it simple starting out, I think Pete came up with that suggestion, so at least I can purchase ever thing the same as far as powder goes.
Was searching yesterday for retailers who sale Goex, and actually found 2nd Amendment Sports in Palm Springs about 45 minutes from me, I am a happy camper now.
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It's way cheaper when you figure out per shot spent. It's just more expensive to get started.
Soon, you won't be concerned with expense you'll be having so much fun shooting.
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Until you get setup to cast your own. I like these for cast balls and the price is good.
http://www.octobercountry.com/cast-round-balls-45-to-8-bore/
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Pete, on both replies, thanks for that. I am learning this week that starting it costly, when it comes to the items I need I hope I am purchasing quality, so I don't have to do it again in the near future. I am not even sure what all I need, is there a list of all items needed for a day at the range?
For example, this tool here seems reasonable, is this something I need to maintain the pan at the range? http://www.octobercountry.com/antler-tip-pan-brush/
I could get really hung up in all the gadgetry I am seeing for this art/sport/craft. It's like woodworking, you start out buying "things" that look like you may need them, but never really do.
Or would a Flinters Ring of Tools do the job? Is the price reasonable? Quality?
http://www.octobercountry.com/flinters-ring-of-tools/
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Forged parts, looks good, John.
The napping hammer, vent pick(although a bit large in dia.) and screw driver are good. I never need a brush.
You can skinny up the vent pick with a file.
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I was going to say I don't use a brush either. Some alcohol wipes works better. Vent pick for sure. Do that every load after loading powder and patch ball but befor putting in the pan powder. Run the pick all the way in making a channel in the powder. Then load the pan.
You can buy the vent pick and screwdriver separately. I never use a hammer or brush.
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I have a steel vent pic but like a piece of copper wire better for when I want to pic my vent. Just thinking the hole wont enlarge as much or as fast.
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Flintlocks by Eric Bye is a great book and should help answer most of your questions.
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Daryl, Pete, grouch, thanks for the tips again, appreciate it greatly!
Panzerschwein, got the book, been reading it like a bible! Great book, thanks sir.
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Welcome, John!
I'm arriving late to the conversation here; scanned through most of it, but I might have missed this one tidbit.
A couple nice things about ordering from Graf's, as opposed to some other powder houses: (1) they'll sell in 5# lots; many other suppliers require a 20-25# purchase. Fine, if you're buying for a club; not so useful, for most of us loners.
(2) They'll "mix-and-match" orders, to make up that 5# minimum, within a like product line (for instance, you can order 2# of 2F; 2# of 3F, and a pound of 4F for priming, etc.). My understanding is, as long as it's the same product, it counts toward the minimum. If you want to try various makes or products, you might call ahead and see if they'll do that for you: the minimum sales requirements for BP are mostly due to the Fed hazmat rules and fees.
I think you'll be happy with a GPR for your first muzzleloader; a pawnshop-find flintlock .50 GPR was my first, and I found it to be surprisingly accurate for a factory-built, price-point, import arm. I'll never sell it; in fact, after some TLC it'll be gifted to one of my three kids, or their spouse.
I believe it was OMM who suggested replacing the lock with the L&R RPL lock; I did, and it really helped solve the flash-fizzle issue. TOW and Muzzleloader Builders' Supply both offer them, online.
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Welcome, John!
I'm arriving late to the conversation here; scanned through most of it, but I might have missed this one tidbit.
A couple nice things about ordering from Graf's, as opposed to some other powder houses: (1) they'll sell in 5# lots; many other suppliers require a 20-25# purchase. Fine, if you're buying for a club; not so useful, for most of us loners.
(2) They'll "mix-and-match" orders, to make up that 5# minimum, within a like product line (for instance, you can order 2# of 2F; 2# of 3F, and a pound of 4F for priming, etc.). My understanding is, as long as it's the same product, it counts toward the minimum. If you want to try various makes or products, you might call ahead and see if they'll do that for you: the minimum sales requirements for BP are mostly due to the Fed hazmat rules and fees.
I think you'll be happy with a GPR for your first muzzleloader; a pawnshop-find flintlock .50 GPR was my first, and I found it to be surprisingly accurate for a factory-built, price-point, import arm. I'll never sell it; in fact, after some TLC it'll be gifted to one of my three kids, or their spouse.
I believe it was OMM who suggested replacing the lock with the L&R RPL lock; I did, and it really helped solve the flash-fizzle issue. TOW and Muzzleloader Builders' Supply both offer them, online.
Dave, thanks a million for the assurance and tips, appreciate it much.
I have another question, looking for the flintlock primers, those little dodads that you use to insert powder to the pan, I am adding to my shopping cart at TOW, is this what I use for the primer?
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Search.aspx?search=powder%20flask
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The brass powder primers are very much like handgrenades, if one was to go off while priming. A wood-stoppered horn primer would be so much better that I have stopped using the little handgrenade for priming my flinters.
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The brass powder primers are very much like handgrenades, if one was to go off while priming. A wood-stoppered horn primer would be so much better that I have stopped using the little handgrenade for priming my flinters.
Thanks Daryl, and that is why I am here, asking, appreciate it. :)
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It will take you a while to get the hang of priming with your main horn. You'll pour in too much as first. Too much is not good, so remove some of it. It doesn't take much prime if everything else is right.
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Welcome, John!
...
A couple nice things about ordering from Graf's, as opposed to some other powder houses: (1) they'll sell in 5# lots; many other suppliers require a 20-25# purchase. Fine, if you're buying for a club; not so useful, for most of us loners.
(2) They'll "mix-and-match" orders, ...
Powder Inc. also sells a wide array of powders, same 5# minimum (up to 50#-the price break at 10# is good and at 25# is great). Quoted prices include all fees. Mix and match is standard biz. So don't think of them as " the other powder house" with different policy than Grafs. It looks quite similar to me.
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Power Inc..........5lbs with sales tax...........$170
Graf's................5 lbs with sales tax...........$130
Both are full prices delivered to your door.
That's why I buy from Graf's.
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It will take you a while to get the hang of priming with your main horn. You'll pour in too much as first. Too much is not good, so remove some of it. It doesn't take much prime if everything else is right.
Thanks again all of you, appreciate the pricing comps for powder!
Pete, I have read that using the large horn for priming can be dangerous? Because of a larger explosion if it sparks on accident while priming? Is this fact or just another method that is worrisome to some but not to others?
Thanks sir
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It will take you a while to get the hang of priming with your main horn. You'll pour in too much as first. Too much is not good, so remove some of it. It doesn't take much prime if everything else is right.
Thanks again all of you, appreciate the pricing comps for powder!
Pete, I have read that using the large horn for priming can be dangerous? Because of a larger explosion if it sparks on accident while priming? Is this fact or just another method that is worrisome to some but not to others?
Thanks sir
No, you read to not use it for the main charge down the bore. The majority will prime the pan with the main horn. Although so will use a smaller priming horn. If there was a danger the small horn could blow up too.
The danger is an ember still burning when you pour the powder down the bore. That would flash up the bore and ignite your powder horn. That couldn't happen priming the pan.
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Just as sort of an eye opener, watch a view videos of a flintlock going off. That ball of fire is from a very small amount of black powder. If your gun would happen to go off while priming your whole priming horn or whatever you are using would go just as fast. Things would get ugly real fast no matter what your using.
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Pete and Martin, thanks again for your tips, appreciate it much.
I am getting ready to purchase powder from Graf's.
I am purchasing 4 lbs, the minimum, Pete recommended 3F for shooting and priming. Do you all think I should purchase 4 cans of 3F or should I try to experiment a tad, say two cans of 3F as recommended here, maybe a can of 4F to see how it acts in the pan instead of the 3F, and perhaps a can of 2F? So total order 2lbs of 3F, 1lb of 2F, 1lb of 4F. 4lbs total.
Thanks guys for putting up with my questions.
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Are you going to hunt or just targets? If you're going to hunt. What game?
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Are you going to hunt or just targets? If you're going to hunt. What game?
Just target for now Pete, but I could see this all manifesting into hunting in the future, but really for now, target only.
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For a 50 cal, I'd get 3F and if you can't get it out of your mind, get a can of 4F. It'll last a very very long time even if you prime every shot with it. 2F is perfectly serviceable in a 50, so If you'd like to work up a load with 3F and 2F to see which your gun actually prefers, then get a # of 2F.
Just know that you'll need to develop a different load for it for best performance (and for me, accuracy _is_ performance). No amount of "energy" counts if you miss the intended target.
Once you get your loads worked up, you'll know if 3F or 2F works best in your 50 cal. Only you can do that. Everyone can tell you what -his- gun prefers (if he's worked with two powders, some haven') but no one can tell you what your gun prefers, as you load it. Enjoy the process. Do your accuracy testing at 50. 25 yards makes everything look wonderful.