AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Jim Kibler on June 27, 2020, 06:16:45 PM
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As mentioned in the other post, we'll be offering individual barrels for sale in time. These will have Green Mountain bores and we'll be doing the rest. Anything below .40 caliber we'll be rifling here as well. So I'm just thinking ahead to possible designs and styles. So a question... What do you guys think the most popular profile / caliber combinations are? My thoughts are to offer a number of these plus some profiles of our own design. When all the dust settles, I can envision having at max 10-12 barrel offerings total. We would work towards stocking these so there would be limited wait. I don't think we'll be doing one-off custom work.
Thanks!
Jim
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Jim,
You can get the standard 38, 42, 44 from most barrel makers. Offer something different. If you do they will fly out the door as fast as you can make them.
After you get set and running with the rifle barrels maybe a line of smooth bore oct/rd.
Thanks
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Hi Jim,
A 42" fowler barrel 20, 16, or 14 gauge with breech 1.18-1.25" wide. Seventy percent of the taper to the muzzle completed within 12" of the breech. Barrel octagon to round or all round. In addition, a proper standing breech with hump and cross pin lug.
dave
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The SMR in 45 cal has amazing balance. If the barrel were shortened to 40 or 42" is would make an awesome lightweight rifle for individuals' projects.
Tapered lighter barrels are hard to find. Most are big chunkie Hawken barrels. Maybe a 15/16" that straight tapers to 13/16" say 36" long.
GM pistol barrels in other than 45 caliber seem to be NOS when they can be found. 40 and 36 caliber pistol barrels would be great.
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.60 cal in a 39 - 40 inch swamped - 6 to 8 inch waist - less muzzle end flare than the old "early transitional " profile
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Green Mountain bores...does that mean that they will be made from the same steel as GM's other muzzleloader barrels? If so that is interesting news. Edited to add: It appears that my question was answered on the other thread. Yes!
I'd like to see something like the Brass Barrel rifle (http://flintriflesmith.com/Antiques/BrassBarrelRifle.htm) albeit with perhaps a thicker waist. That is one profile that allows for a big breech for good early architecture while allowing sub-.50 calibers without excessive weight. I think that some later profiles with more subtle swamps than the norm would also be popular.
I probably a bit of an outlier, but I'd like at least the option of somewhat heavier barrels than the norm today - the trend seems to be to make them as light as possible, whereas the originals tend to have considerably more weight and barrel presence.
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Barrel for your SMR shortened to 42 inches.
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Shorter barrels are readily available from several manufactures already. Fowlers and some rifles typically had barrels that were longer than currently offered and some were quite thin even though made from wrought iron. Why not go longer to provide builders something not available from other suppliers with period correct lengths? Also, with the improved ductility of certified AISI 1137 over 12L14 perhaps an engineered barrel could be made thinner to set apart your offering. Just a thought.
Having done the soldering of lugs and sights on a fowler your plan to have integral lugs/sights will make your fowler kit a lot more attractive to beginners.
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.60 cal in a 39 - 40 inch swamped - 6 to 8 inch waist - less muzzle end flare than the old "early transitional " profile
I would take one of these in 58cal. And a .920 muzzle.
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B wt. .50 cal. 44"lg.
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50 cal for the SMR.
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13 inch swamped pistol barrels any caliber
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Jim,
I use Rice's A weight Allen Town profile (45 inch length) when building a SMR for customers wanting .32 to .40 cal rifles. I use the B weight for .45 cal. and C weight for .50 and .54 cal rifles. I like the profile a bunch because the height of the front sight when sighted in is more in line with what the original rifles I have on them. I have used this profile on VA big bore rifles as well with good success.
I use a straight taper 1 1/8 breech measurement tapering to 1 inch at the muzzle 34 inches in length in .54 cal on the late Hawken 1/2 stock rifles I build. I use the same profile but in 36 inch length when building a full stock Hawken.
Roger Sells
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Jim,
Thanks for the opportunity to throw out ideas! I waited on your 45 SMR before I bit the bullet because I live in a state that you can not hunt deer with anything less than 45 but can not hunt squirrel with anything larger than 36. My answer was a smooth bore in 50 with shot for squirrels and a patched round all for deer. It would be great to have available a rifled and smooth version of an oct to round in 50 or 54 (28 ga) in a Lehigh or Bucks county lightweight rifle smoothbore. Thanks again and good luck!
elkhorne
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Historically correct smoothbore barrels for Carolina trade guns, North West trade guns, Hudson Valley fowlers, and club butt fowlers. In the proper bore sizes, diameters, tapers, barrel wall thicknesses, and lengths. NOT A ONE SIZE FITS ALL SET UP.
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RJB:
The average length of the St.Etienne Type D French trade gun (Fusil de traite) barrel was 52 inches , some substantially longer. Mine has the one-size-fits-all barrel length of 42 inches. If we go to the trouble of trying to make things period correct I for one would like the barrel lengths to be period correct too. Just saying!
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Jim;
Thanks for the initiative. The last three rifles I built have been transitional/jaeger, and I found it hard to get .62 cal barrels or swamped barrels between 29 and 38 inches. Shorter with larger bores.
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RJB:
The average length of the St.Etienne Type D French trade gun (Fusil de traite) barrel was 52 inches , some substantially longer. Mine has the one-size-fits-all barrel length of 42 inches. If we go to the trouble of trying to make things period correct I for one would like the barrel lengths to be period correct too. Just saying!
There are only a couple of barrel maker's that will go past 48" long. For the most part they are back logged for years.
If Jim Kibler would add such HC fowler lengths/bore sizes/breech diameters/barrel wall thicknesses/octagon-round profiles/round profiles as I, yourself, and others are asking for into his inventory/CAD computer design program; then he would not necessarily have to keep them in stock for immediate sale/delivery.
My suggestion would be that the specific barrels for the various, and myriad, smoothbore civilian, military and quasi-military, fowlers and muskets that we would all like to recreate could be offered/fabricated on a semi-annual basis. The Kiblers could take orders for such custom offerings with a REFUNDABLE/NON-REFUNDABLE DEPOSIT of say $50.00 to discourage people from wasting their time. Deposit to be refundable up to say 90 days prior to the date of delivery. This would allow them time to order barrel steel, schedule time for fabrication/packing/shipping. After the 90 day mark, NO REFUND OF THE DEPOSIT. Unless, of course, there was a serious mitigating reason, such as death, injury, or illness.
This would also allow them to gauge the interest in such offerings, and let them decide if it was sound business practice to offer such a service.
Most of the custom m-l barrel maker's seem to be in their '60's, '70's, and '80's. Bobby Hoyt, Charlie Burton, Howard Kelley, Ed Rayl. No one seems to be stepping up to take their place.
Same thing for The Rifle Shoppe. What an amazing resource!!!!
What an amazing PAIN IN THE A$$. One person orders, and gets their parts/kit in a single week. The next person orders, and it takes 18 months for things to arrive. Many lock kits have sub-standard parts in them. The phone often goes unanswered.
What happens when the principals retire, or die? Seems like a perfect candidate for a modern CNC update.
I will be willing to take whatever Jim and Katherine can offer our community. We just need 20 more folks in their late '20's, early '30's to step in and bring CNC machining to other aspects of traditional muzzleloading
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for me the absolutely huge thing is you'll be using "gun barrel certified steel".
anything similar to what's usually listed as "type A, B, C , rifled swamped barrels is what seems logical to me, as the main focus. to me you would leave the "leaded" barrel makers in the past. goodbye to them.
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Thanks so much for all of the suggestions. These have given me some good ideas. One thing I always have to consider is what we would sell the most of. This will determine what the priorities will be. We'll have some of the standards that have been offered for a long time and then offer some others as well. The brass barreled rifle barrel is a GREAT profile. We don't do many shows, but I'm looking forward to the CLA to show all the things we've been working on the last year. I think the barrels will be well received.
All the best,
Jim
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Jim,
I would think that you will be offering rifles bores as small as .32.
How large of a rifled bore barrel do you think you will offer?
Larger than .58?
Thanks
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Jim,
I would think that you will be offering rifles bores as small as .32.
How large of a rifled bore barrel do you think you will offer?
Larger than .58?
Thanks
Yes, we'll go down to .32. We'll at least go up to .62.
Jim
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You may want to offer the larger caliber barrels in a faster twist than other makers offer so it doesn’t take as large a charge to get good accuracy. I recall John Baird shooting some original 58 caliber Hawken rifles with a 1x48 twist and getting clover leaf groups at a 100 yards with fairly light charges. A lot of guys, me included don’t like taking a pounding shooting the 58 and 62 calibers. As I recall all the original Hawkins were a 1x48 twist.
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I can recall talking to Jason at Rice 6-8 months ago about the .66 caliber, Early Dutch Lancaster barrel. And, him telling me that he used the same drill/reamer for the .66 caliber barrels as he did for his 16 gauge smoothbore barrels. Which made them in actuality a .67 caliber barrel as the bore diameter was 0.672".
I believe that the brass barrel profile is very similar to the Rice EDL barrel. I would love to see a .66 caliber/1:48" twist brass barrel profile. I would purchase one in a hot minute for a Hans Jakob Honnager build.
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As we age lightweight rifles tend to be of more importance for hunting. A 42" swamped barrel in calibers from .32 to .62 make a good standard. The SMRs with the 44" to 46" swamped will be perfect for up to .45. Some prefer more weighty tubes and a heavy swamped or straight tubes of around 28" to 34" for jeagers or shorter half-stocks in .54 to .66 would fare well IMHO. Small bores, .32 & .36, would make sweet handling squirrel rifles using a swamped 38" to 42" "A" weight barrels.
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Jim, is your head spinning with all these suggestions 🙂
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Opened a can of worms there didn't you, Jim.
Bob
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Delete all of these suggestions, Jim, and cogitate on what YOU think would be appropriate.
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Mr. Kibler,
Maybe consider offering barrels bored to use a .375 ball? Maybe one offered up configured for later rifles such as Joseph Long built?
Thank you,
Kevin
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Through all my years I have heard so many people talk about guns being to heavy. I think if somebody made swamped barrels with a faster taper from the breech, a longer straight section and a smaller flare at the muzzle this could lighten them up some. I would do this in the most popular calibers, 45 to 58cal. I know i seen one orginal gun with a barrel like this. Best I remember the taper from the breech ended in about 12in and a slight flare starting 4 or 5in before the muzzle. The barrel was about 44in long. It was a good looking long slim gun. I seen this many years ago at a gun and knife show in Missouri. A little food for thought. Al
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I have only handled roughly four dozen original longrifles from fabulous PA collections. I didn't have a scale with me nor did I ask specifically the weight of various rifles. But I was left with an overall impression that original rifles, at least the ones I handled, were in the 9 pounds + category. Almost all had breech diameters in the 1"+ range, in spite of calibre. I'm missing something with this "we need light weight barrels" thing.
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I too have handled few ( 6 IIRC ) original long rifles but have been fortunate to have been able to handle 20 -25 original Hawken guns and some other plains type rifles. My impression with all of them was that modern man would not make the grade if 9+ lbs. is too heavy. But that being said the average shooter of these guns now days is on the down hill side of his shooting/hunting life style and yes I include myself in that group.
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If you are thinking to offer a smooth bore Fowler barrel you should spend some time talking to Ken Netting. Unlike what is commercially available his barrels are graceful and balanced. They are light in the muzzle and comfortable to shoulder. The series of tapers found in original barrels are complex and his barrel work mirrors what was done in fine original barrels. Modern Fowler barrels are too thick heavy and clumsy his are exact replicas of originals.
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Outside the standards I'd like to see a French Trade gun barrel in the original, I believe, 14 bore and a .75 straight small bore barrel 38"ish for Tennessee guns. I know they're not in the 'swamped' variety, but that's the contrarian in me I guess.....
I'm excited to see what you produce Jim. I also like your GM choice.
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I have only handled roughly four dozen original longrifles from fabulous PA collections. I didn't have a scale with me nor did I ask specifically the weight of various rifles. But I was left with an overall impression that original rifles, at least the ones I handled, were in the 9 pounds + category. Almost all had breech diameters in the 1"+ range, in spite of calibre. I'm missing something with this "we need light weight barrels" thing.
It's not about what was, it's about what people want today. Al
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I too have handled few ( 6 IIRC ) original long rifles but have been fortunate to have been able to handle 20 -25 original Hawken guns and some other plains type rifles. My impression with all of them was that modern man would not make the grade if 9+ lbs. is too heavy. But that being said the average shooter of these guns now days is on the down hill side of his shooting/hunting life style and yes I include myself in that group.
Those guns were owned by men who had horses, not just one but a string and maybe a pack mule. They wouldn't venture as far as the outhouse on foot.
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I would love to see a 1.25" breech, swamped with a .56" fast twist. Mabey a little on the long side.
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I prefer light, longer barrels generally and would prefer to see something like Rice's Southern Classic. Interesting comments on this thread regarding what's PC/HC and what was not. I don't really feel too strongly one way or the other about such things. I'm very glad that there are historians here and builders who care about learning all they can about the traditional firearms and accoutrements. That said, I have to wonder if this isn't one of those things where early Americans also would have loved to have much lighter guns if they could. I don't know enough about the quality of iron/steel that they had back in the day, but it seems to me that the materials and processes that they used necessitated a heavier rifle. And, sure, if your idea is that we should build exactly as they did and use the same materials and processes as they did, then more power to you, but there are darn few of us (if any) that aren't taking advantage of modern processes and better materials. Just look at this thread, look at Jim's CNC locks, etc..
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I would love to see longer barrels available. 48” and up.
Ez
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Jim, I'm a big fan of the B and C weight 44" barrel. It would also be nice to have a shorter Jaeger barrel. I'm probably jumping the gun here, but a righteous 4ft fowling piece barrel that wasn't front heavy would be really cool as well!
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Jim, are you planning to cut rifle or button rifle? The topic of steel has been mentioned but are you planning on using 1137 or 12L14 or something else for the barrels that you rifle?
Thanks, Blessings, Bill Nash
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I prefer light, longer barrels generally and would prefer to see something like Rice's Southern Classic. Interesting comments on this thread regarding what's PC/HC and what was not. I don't really feel too strongly one way or the other about such things. I'm very glad that there are historians here and builders who care about learning all they can about the traditional firearms and accoutrements. That said, I have to wonder if this isn't one of those things where early Americans also would have loved to have much lighter guns if they could. I don't know enough about the quality of iron/steel that they had back in the day, but it seems to me that the materials and processes that they used necessitated a heavier rifle. And, sure, if your idea is that we should build exactly as they did and use the same materials and processes as they did, then more power to you, but there are darn few of us (if any) that aren't taking advantage of modern processes and better materials. Just look at this thread, look at Jim's CNC locks, etc..
I don't think we can conclude that they greatly desired lighter barrels, for two reasons:
First, while I really don't want to get into the barrel steel debate again, I have to point out that the very little actual data - not assumptions but data - on the comparative ductility and strength under shock impact of wrought iron and modern steels suggests that wrought iron is inferior to the 4140/50 steels used in modern gun barrels, roughly comparable to 1137, and definitely superior to cold-drawn 12L14, the most widely used material today. The caveat is that the 1137MOD used in gun barrels is presumably better than the 1137 for which I have data, being formulated for that purpose, and that the 11L14 used in barrels these days is at the least stress-relieved if not actually annealed, and thus possibly stronger under impact than the cold-drawn 12L14 tested. Ergo, it is likely that modern muzzleloading barrels are a bit stronger in real life than on paper. Also, I do not know how representative the wrought iron sample used is. Gun barrels were not generally made from poor grade iron, though - that was used for things like wagon wheels, architectural ironwork, or other non-demanding applications, I believe.
Despite those caveats, however, I think we can conclude that good quality wrought iron, far from being "rotten cheese" as I've seen it characterized, was a perfectly good material for the pressures involved, and any weaknesses were due to the possibility of slag inclusions or bad welds, not the material per se. This is is bolstered by the performance of mid-19th century rifle-musket barrels made of very high-end wrought iron welded with triphammers - I forget the particulars, but these barrels stood up to proof loads and destructive testing that put other barrels, including modern ones, to shame, giving rise to the myth that it was impossible to overload a muzzleloader.
In sum, while the consistency and lack of welds in modern steels are a definite advantage, the idea that period gunsmiths were forced to vastly overbuild their barrels to achieve safety is way overstated, I think.
The second reason is that I think that they preferred heavier barrels on rifles is because they could have easily have reduced weight or muzzle-heaviness if they desired, either by changing the barrel profile or shortening it, or both. One of the fascinating things about the development of the Kentucky rifle is that, at least on paper, the German rifles first brought here fit our ideas of a good field gun nearly exactly - fairly light, (I think), short and handy, good weight distribution, and with a stock design that kept felt recoil to a minimum. It is the 18th century version of Jeff Cooper's "scout rifle".....By the 1790s, at the end of 20 years of warfare and survival along the trans-appalachian frontier, the longrifle had become long, with a pronounced barrel presence, cupped buttplates, and comb-lines nowhere near parallel to the bore. This basic design, with slight modifications, went on to be the workhorse of the Fur Trade for the next forty years or so, serving right alongside trade guns, shotguns, and European rifles with designs more closely suited to our modern ideas that could have been copied had people found the longrifle design wanting.
Had they wanted what people today want, I think that they would have kept the original German design, or developed something fairly close to it. That they didn't indicates that they had other ideas about what was required for a good rifle.
Ergo, barrel weight was a deliberate design choice.
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Going back to the original topic, if we are compiling a wishlist I prefer that the barrels would would come without the vent liner installed, no notch for the front lock screw, and with a minimum of stamped markings - stamping work-hardens the steel, and while it is probably not a big issue the habit some makers have of covering the first 3-4 inches of the bottom flat with inventory information right where the pressure is greatest strikes me as sub-optimal.
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Elnathan, nice presentation on barrel weights. I concur that long heavy barrels were driven by what the market wanted.
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I have only handled roughly four dozen original longrifles from fabulous PA collections. I didn't have a scale with me nor did I ask specifically the weight of various rifles. But I was left with an overall impression that original rifles, at least the ones I handled, were in the 9 pounds + category. Almost all had breech diameters in the 1"+ range, in spite of calibre. I'm missing something with this "we need light weight barrels" thing.
It's not about what was, it's about what people want today. Al
A. makes a great point. To further that point, perhaps contrary to the way he meant it, much of it really is about what most people want today.
I don't think that Jim is looking to go into the custom barrel making business right now. Maybe someday he will be in a position to market his own line of barrels (he is a reformed metallurgist after all). For the immediate future though, I think he is going to concentrate on building barrels that make sense to current and future additions to his kit business. Many of the requests for unique barrel profiles and kit offerings are just that; unique to an individual builder or customer and not really marketable to a wider audience. There are barrel and gun makers out there who can fulfill those individual wishes. Who knows, once he is in control of all the components supporting his business, maybe Jim will return to his custom shop! ;)
Right now, it really is about want most people want today. Translation in this case: much of it is about what will keep Jim in business. It will benefit current and future gunbuilders if he stays in business for a long time to come. Look at how he has innovated and expanded his business in four short years. Can't wait to see what other surprises he has in store for us.
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Yeah, we'll be offering a line of barrels intended to be sold individually before too long. I'd guess 6 months or so. We have a good production set-up so it's not too much work to offer different profiles. We'll cary a limited line of the most popular calibers / profiles and try to keep these stocked. So, you'll get the benefits of 1137M material, Green Mountains excellent bores and superior exterior shaping and finishing by us. We've been shipping a good number of our barrels with kits already and the reports we've receive from customers are very good.
Thanks,
Jim
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Jim,
What would be the price on those barrels.
AsMs
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Hi Jim
I feel a little wrong in saying this as you are the expert.
I think perhaps you are missing a great opportunity.
CNC's biggest drawcard was great repeatability.
It is now my understanding (potentially very flawed) that with modern CNC programming it is easier than ever to make programming variations.
What if you were able to do mix and match swamped barrels?
For instance the breech and muzzle profile of say your SMR or Colonial but 2" longer or shorter?
What about the breech of the brass barrelled rifle but the muzzle of the Krupp?
The front and back would be set but the middle would be of variable length.
Perhaps as some vendors can supply a stock from a multitude of known examples. You could do the same for barrels.
This would be a step closer to the originals with essentially a customisable profile available to each buyer. Yes it would be at a premium and probably paid up front or at least a large non refundable deposit. But you could offer custom profiles within reason of course.
Apologies for the ramble
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Simple question regarding the Colonial rifle. Is it available with a smooth bore barrel ? If so, what would be the largest bore size ?
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Simple question regarding the Colonial rifle. Is it available with a smooth bore barrel ? If so, what would be the largest bore size ?
Yes, we currently can do smooth bore up to .58 caliber (24 guage). It will be available in .62 caliber at sometime in the future (when I'm not certain).
Thanks,
Jim
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Hi Jim
I feel a little wrong in saying this as you are the expert.
I think perhaps you are missing a great opportunity.
CNC's biggest drawcard was great repeatability.
It is now my understanding (potentially very flawed) that with modern CNC programming it is easier than ever to make programming variations.
What if you were able to do mix and match swamped barrels?
For instance the breech and muzzle profile of say your SMR or Colonial but 2" longer or shorter?
What about the breech of the brass barrelled rifle but the muzzle of the Krupp?
The front and back would be set but the middle would be of variable length.
Perhaps as some vendors can supply a stock from a multitude of known examples. You could do the same for barrels.
This would be a step closer to the originals with essentially a customisable profile available to each buyer. Yes it would be at a premium and probably paid up front or at least a large non refundable deposit. But you could offer custom profiles within reason of course.
Apologies for the ramble
A lot of what you say is true, but from a business perspective we don't prefer to have a million potential variations of things. It makes things more difficult. If we tried hard, I'm sure we could set up a system to do "one off" custom barrels but there are a lot of drawbacks to this. There would be a lot of customer intereaction, lots of chance for error when continually running new programs etc. It's much better for us to standardize to some degree. Remember, it's not always just what can be done, but what's the best approach.
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Thank you for your response :)
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Jim,
What would be the price on those barrels.
AsMs
The price wil basically be what others are charging. Somewhere around $250.
Thanks,
Jim
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....
......There would be a lot of customer intereaction.....
Wait, what's wrong with "lots of customer interaction" Mr. Engineer YouTuber? ;D ;)
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......There would be a lot of customer intereaction.....
Wait, what's wrong with "lots of customer interaction" Mr. Engineer YouTuber? ;D ;)
Nothing wrong with customer interaction, but our primary goal, as the case with most businesses, is to be efficient and as profitable as possible! ;)
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Jim I really admire your business acumen. I admire it even more than your craftsmanship and your engineering ability.
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I know you don’t want to do custom profiles. But since your profiling straight barrels, here is a thought. I think there would be a market for profiling someone’s existing straight barrel to one of your existing profiles. Much like if a customer wants to use their own wood and you put their blank through your CNC process.
Several of us might have a few 1”, 15/16” or 7/8” straight barrels collecting dust that could be candidates for a slim swamping. If you had some gradual profiles that would fit these measurements, (below a certain caliber of course), I think there would be a market for profiling them and bringing some surplus straights out of the shop rafters and back into service. Maybe one choice for each diameter in 42” or 38”. If longer, it would be cut to one of those lengths. Perhaps skip the precut lugs, if not enough meat available. I would be a customer if so. These might not fit any of your existing kits, but it would be a service for reclaiming NOS barrels.
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Bobby Hoyt will do that for you. He has taken 1" straight barrels to A weight swamp for me. He does a good job. Most of the barrel profiles mentioned here are available from several barrel makers if you don't mind a wait, just have to plan ahead. Tim