AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Eric Kettenburg on July 11, 2020, 05:35:57 AM
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I would like to see a rifle *signed* by Gideon Angstadt, or an image of this signature. Not attributed, not 'characteristics of...,' but signed.
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Eric,
I’ve never heard of a signed Gideon in existence. I had an attributed (that’s currently in the library) identical in architecture as the one pictured in Patrick Hornbergers book. I don’t think that piece is signed either.
Buck
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Yes! You kind of just made the point I'm trying to make. I got to thinking about this because of the Peter Angstadt discussion. Both Peter and brother Joseph apparently had sons they named Gideon - apparently. It appears that the Gideon who died in the 1850s in Lewisburg, and was a gunsmith, was son of Joseph. According to some Angstadt geneologies, Peter also had a son Gideon and he appears to be the guy who died in the 1870s as a long time resident of Rockland twp. No evidence he was a gunsmith.
Also I've been revisiting auction listings, for sale listings, books, many photos etc and it appears that "attributed to Gideon Angstadt" is being used as somewhat of a catch-all for essentially anything funky-looking of the 1820s-1840s period, despite many (not all but many) of these attributions having virtually no similarities to each other. Just stirring the pot.
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Eric,
The "Gideon Angstadt" rifle in "Berks County Longrifles and Gunmakers 1750-1900" isn't noted as signed or attributed. I used to communicate with Patrick from time to time, but it's been several years - not sure what his status is. Maybe he'll comment.
Buck
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Eric, below is a summary of ten (10) Angstadt's that I have found so far, that were somewhere actually referred to as a gunsmith in original records. I believe they are all descendents of Adam. This summary is not far off from what Ron Gabel wrote for the updated Kindig book (he showed a family tree with the gunsmiths labeled in bold letters); but with a couple of corrections.
1. Adam (abt 1740-abt 1812)
2. Peter (son of Adam; 1763 Berks Co.-1815 Berks Co.)
3. Jacob (son of Peter; 1783 Berks Co. – 1843 Berks Co.)
4. Joseph (son of Peter; 1794 Berks Co. – after 1870 Berks Co.)
5. Joseph (son of Joseph & grandson of Peter; 1817 Berks Co.- 1872 Berks Co.)
6. Joseph (son of Adam; 1765 Berks Co. -before 1850 Milton, Northumberland Co.)
7. Gideon (son of Joseph; 1800 Kutztown, PA -1854 Lewisburg, PA)
8. Abraham (son of Adam; 1783 Berks Co. -1867 Indiana)
9. Peter (son of Abraham; 1807 Berks Co. - ? Indiana)
10. Adam (son of Abraham; 1826 Schuylkill Co. - ? Indiana)
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Patrick H. posted back in May 2020 ... so he's still active on this site & maybe will see this & comment!
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Dave,
You stirred my curiosity, I've had the "Thoughts" latest edition for a few years and have never spent anytime digging deep into it. That Family Tree / Timeline was published in an article by John P. Angstadt - "The Case for Abraham" in which Bruce Moyer and Joe Flemish assisted in research and the crafting of the article. Not sure why Ron Gabel is credited for the information.
Like Eric debating Gideon, I debate Adam 1 and the AA or A Andstadt attributions, likely Abraham and Adam the 2nd. AA and A Angstadt rifles are architecturally different from anything Adam 1 would have produced due to the area from which he originated.
There are a series of rifles, 2 of which are include in "Thoughts" on pages 178 & 179 and 2 others that I have seen / held in my hands that are believed to be Adams work and not that of the Moll Family. The research and architectural features of these rifles and others that trail in time that are signed by the Angstadts make for an interesting debate.
Buck
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Buck, I agree with everything you say, and I have been considering these same things. I have also held and studied the rifles you mention, and although it is speculative without a signed example, there are enough similarities of these to Joseph Angstadt's work that make me wonder if Adam Angstadt made them, since he and his son Joseph worked together apparently in one shop. In other words is there a possibility that the unsigned pieces you mention are Adam's (not the Abraham / Schuylkill County gunsmith but Adam born around 1740) or were made perhaps by both Adam, and his son Joseph, prior to Adam's death around 1812. From the records I have a sense that Joseph was much more reliant on working with his father Adam than other independent gunsmiths - although again speculative.
My own feeling as for the "A. Angstadt" guns is to agree with those who believe these were made by Abraham Angstadt, born in 1783. Based on the records, I found Abraham located up by Orwigsburg (Berks County until 1811 then became part of Schuylkill County) already by 1810. Maybe he spent part of his time training with a gunsmith in that area and decided to stay there.
Similar to Eric's post, has anyone ever actually seen a gun signed "Adam Angstadt" and not just "A. Angstadt"?
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Dave - haven; thad a chance to get back to you directly but now it looks like you, Buck and me also all seem to think that those "early Molls" as Kindig originally called them are probably early-ish Angstadts, most likely Adam. There are more by the same guy, including the one posted here long ago by Earl Lanning that was somewhere down in NC and was being assigned some kind of weird Jacob Loesch attribution (not by Earl but by whomever was giving him the photos and info). Unfortunately someone subsequently did some pretty nasty stuff to that gun in a deceptive way.
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Eric / Dave,
I have photos of one of these rifles. I’ll see if the owner will permit me to post them . It’s a long shot but I’m going to give it a shot. Stay tuned!
Buck
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Different box design but I believe this is the same guy we're discussing.
(https://i.ibb.co/tqJXJJ9/unknown.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0CGtGGx)
(https://i.ibb.co/kyfxKxV/unknown14.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/PtdprZz/unknown12.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Buck sounds good hope you get the OK!
Eric - thanks for the new photos - very interesting! And to your previous statement - yes, I agree - and makes sense, since Adam would likely have at least a few surviving rifles around. We always like to attribute rifles to a single gunsmith - but sometimes that is just not the case - and here again my speculation is that unlike Peter Angstadt, who seemed to work on his own, Adam (the father) and Joseph made their guns together with very similar carving style and that any surviving pieces made after maybe 1783 or so (Joseph born in 1765) probably represent their combined effort, unless signed by one or other. So that for example an early gun pre-1812 rifle attributed to Joseph - but unsigned, was probably made by father / son together. - like referring to the gun you just posted as an "Adam & Joseph Angstadt" rifle that in the say 1783-1812 period maybe they just used varying patchbox styles. In other words - the "early Moll" Kindig guns are likely in Adam's earlier style, but that Adam's guns and Joseph's guns represent more of an evolution of the both of them working together, and not that Adam used a radically different style than Joseph - if that makes sense. Again just going back to how they always lived and worked together and advertised together as father and son. All fun speculation!
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I absolutely agree - if they were working in the same shop, it is highly unlikely that they were somehow "separating" work. Much more likely products of either were to some/varying extent products of both.
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Dave / Eric,
I concur, the 3 photos Eric posted explain it all - it's indisputable in my opinion. Eric, do you have a shot of the carving above the wrist behind the tang? That was the one detail that was matched between the 3 rifles our friend has and the 2 Kindig rifles.
Buck
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Unfortunately the barrel tang had been extended during an old repair, but some of it is still visible. I think there is enough visible to get a pretty good idea of what was there, sans the details.
(https://i.ibb.co/QbG7Csj/Loesch4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8KVndF4)
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Eric,
That’s it - the tang surround is a little different, but just below it is what I was hoping to see.
Buck
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After the "restoration." >:(
(https://i.ibb.co/LP3WRrH/rifle2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hMSj9cw)
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Eric - excellent work
Buck
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I'll take that as a compliment of my photo-posting abilities!! because I sure didn't do the abortive 'restoration' to this rifle. Back when there was lots of discussion of rifle #42, someone decided to make up a story about this rifle involving Jacob Loesch and it was butchered. The side plate was COMPLETELY replaced with a hideous hunk of brass that was supposed to look like the #42 side plate and I would say the gun was irreparably damaged. The toe plate was changed out too, for some reason, with a ridiculously thick piece of brass.
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Interesting! Does anyone have photos of the tang carvings, or rear pipe carvings, of the kindig guns? Or the rear pipe carving of this gun?
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I believe the forestock is original, or largely original, although I can not say for sure as I have not seen it first-hand. I also do believe that box is original, as there is no evidence that I can see for replacement and Earl did tell me that he thought that it was original (he did actually handle it). The engraving is interesting.
(https://i.ibb.co/qdpn9K8/rifle5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6mFZbzS)
(https://i.ibb.co/pPDvtbH/rifle9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KGZjMbt)
(https://i.ibb.co/rs7Wspk/rifle10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/py0myK2)
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BTW, just to stay on track somewhat now and then: still would like to see a signed or stamped or otherwise marked Gideon Angstadt rifle!!!!!!!!!!!
I forget which book, but one of the old compendium of American makers (one of the old ones from maybe the 50s or 60s) listed Gideon Angstadt, and briefly described a rifle. This would lead me to believe that there should be at least ONE marked piece out there, otherwise where did all of these Gideon Angstadt attributions originate?
Come on, there has to be ONE?????????
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This one was from an old man at arms magazine. Looks like the same very unique vine and leaf engraving design - would love to see more photos of this rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/17FkZF2/IMG-2382.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5GbPTbc)
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Isn't that a Beck rifle? I'll have to go dig through some books - I think that one might be in RCA somewhere, or one of the other books. Box is quite possibly a later add-on or replacement, so who made the box? Who knows.
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That is a Beck rifle. I think that was discussed here some years back, originally a wooden patch box modified in period? I think it’s in a Whiskers book - one of “Behold the Longrifles” publications?
Buck
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Buck and Eric - Here is a detail for the rear pipe carving of what I would consider the middle age / period of the three rifles from our friend's collection. Slightly different than the one you posted, but similar design. The one shown here is almost identical to the rear pipe carving of another of the three ("Adam"?) carved rifles in that collection. The rifle in this photo I would consider in between the age of the other two. This pictured one, and the earlier one, had a bulge in the stock at the rear pipe - the later one did not, and the later one had a slightly smaller buttstock.
As for the Beck, I do not know anything about that one at all, other than that photo that was shared with me.
(https://i.ibb.co/1dLTLjG/IMG-2557.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jWTDTsk)
(https://i.ibb.co/xYcJtMb/IMG-2558.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YXKpFtS)
upload pic (https://imgbb.com/)
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A few more detail photos for rifle above. An additional feature that may link the Adam made rifles is that it appears that only the Adam Angstadt rifles have the patchbox release on the top of the buttplate and not the end of bottom. I'm searching for photos but have not yet found another Angstadt maker who did this.
(https://i.ibb.co/x8Gwq3x/IMG-2556.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Kz7BxmT)
(https://i.ibb.co/chs6YXb/IMG-2570.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZzbB21H)
(https://i.ibb.co/V39mmcf/IMG-2571.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LvR55XV)
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Dave,
I’ll check the photos that I have in regards to the PB release.
Buck
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I have seen two Peter rifles with it on top, but the majority of his are down in the toe plate.
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I have no opinions on who made what, but these Angstadts made some of the most folky interesting rifles ever. They are a delight to look at.
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I totally agree with you Mike! I am almost hypnotized at the shapes of buttstocks, patch boxes, and inlays. So NOT what you’d expect. Very cool.
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Robert Weil and I have discussed these guys for years. I'm pretty positive that their crops were suffering from ergot fungus, if you get my point!
Personally, when I think of genuinely American 'Kentucky rifle' work, these are the guys I think about. These pieces are as about as American, PA German, folk art, whatever you want to call it, as it gets. And it all WORKS! (artistically and aesthetically)
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Eric,
When I first started collecting Jerry Nobel stated that a true example of a Kentucky rifle is any rifle built by Joseph or Peter Angstadt. Due to the misrepresentation of Adam, i.e the AA or A Angstadt rifles being attributed to him in lieu of Abraham, I believe Jerry overlooks them due to the Berks County architecture that his rifles display. It would appear that Abraham learned his trade outside of the family circle in Reading or somewhere in Berks County. Then there's the proposed Boyer connection with him - discussion for another thread/ post. where's the Gideon A. signed rifles at?!?
Your statement above is exactly my sentiment - Angstadt rifles are the quintessential example of (PA) Kentucky Rifles. The high end builders are prominent, but typically repetitive in design and decor. When I'm walking the floor at a show I admire the high end builders, but when I look at an Angstadt I have to handle it because there's always something different going on. My interest is immediately sparked and full throttle. Just something about them.
Dave - regarding the carving at the rear entry pipe - the 2 early rifles are exactly as you describe with the (bulge) around the rear pipe.
I'm still trying to get the green light to post the pictures.
My Joseph Rifle has the release at the toe, my Peter is actually on the butt plate as is my Abraham swivel. But like Dave says the early Adam / Joseph collaborations and solo works appear to favor the heel extension for the release.
Buck
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I 100% agree with everything you all say. Took me a number of years of studying other makers to finally truly appreciate these ! Hypnotizing, as noted.
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I'm pretty positive that their crops were suffering from ergot fungus, if you get my point!
Maybe they made whiskey with their infested rye and got a twofer! His
Robby
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I'm pretty positive that their crops were suffering from ergot fungus, if you get my point!
Maybe they made whiskey with their infested rye and got a twofer! His
Robby
I feel fairly positive that this exactly was the case.
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Eric - I communicated with our friend today. And I quote" I examined a signed Gideon Angstadt 30-40 years ago, I remember being very impressed because none of us had ever seen one before." He confirmed that with one of his travelling companions who recalled the same event. Where is it?!?
The key to the Adam connection:
(https://i.ibb.co/TPmwGzG/Early-Tang.png) (https://ibb.co/nQzwyhy)
Early Adam
(https://i.ibb.co/G9xM098/Mid-Tang.png) (https://ibb.co/w70QR7P)
Mid Adam
(https://i.ibb.co/RDHgzJt/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4VNFP0C)
Early Joseph - not Adam
(https://i.ibb.co/yWLbLjp/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Bq8S8MG)
Mid Adam - different angle
Buck
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Thanks for those pics Buck, I don't think have ever seen them before.
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Mike - my pleasure, I had to clarify and make a correction.
Buck
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thanks for the pictures Buck - the Angstadts and their rifles deserve a quality book with high quality photos, or at least a quality article.
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Dave,
I agree, they are an interesting group of builders. I would opine dynastic, and their contribution to American arms is overlooked.
Buck
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Dave,
I agree, they are an interesting group of builders. I would opine dynastic, and their contribution to American arms is overlooked.
Buck
I agree. A contemporary builder could explore and work inside this school for a life time.
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This thread really diverged a bit from Gideon Angstadt. Getting back to him for a moment: Buck, that appears to be the 'story' on Gideon Angstadt. I also have spoken to maybe two or three older guys over the years who claimed to have seen a signed Gideon Angstadt "way back when" but unfortunately one never seems to materialize. One of the old books, I forget which, offered a very brief description of a gun under the Gideon Angstadt listing, so I would assume that the author was looking at a signed gun. It's obvious the guy was a gunsmith in Lewisburg. It's very possible we have seen some of his rifles and not known it. Where I am taking issue here is that there seem to be a whole lot of pieces attributed to Gideon Angstadt, but there are vast discrepancies among them - different stock architecture, different furnishings, different everything. So WHICH might actually be Gideon, and which might be someone else? Impossible to say without a signed example to use as an anchor point!!!!!!! Aaaack it drives me nuts.
As a caveat, I want to make clear I do not simply ignore when one of the older dudes (I'm trying hard not to become an older dude myself) tells me about something he may have seen years ago. Times were different, many pieces had not yet disappeared into the black hole of gun safes, sequestered away for half a century or more. Dillin's book is a great resource because despite the tiny, grainy little photos, there are a number of very interesting pieces therein that STILL have not popped back onto the public scene. And that's about a century now. Rich Hujsa used to visit me up here once or twice a year for show-and-tell because he was hunting out of a friends cabin nearby, and we used to discuss Johannes Moll quite a bit because Moll is an obsession of mine. Rich always said he had seen "years ago" a rifle with huge block letters signed JOHANNES MOLL but of course nobody else had seen one since. I never knew whether to take it at face value or not, but then hot d**m probably around 15 years ago, some guy out of nowhere contacts me about a rifle he inherited, and while it was a more modern restock of old parts, there's the giant JOHANNES MOLL signature inlaid down the entire top of the barrel from breech to rear sight in silver block letters. And I've since seen a second restock with the same barrel marking!
Something to think about here, Kindig may have been on to something when he called the two rifles in there 'early Molls' that are probably Adam Angstadt. Moll was practically on top of the Angstadt farm in Berks county at least as early as 1750-1752, and was there until his move to Allentown. Adam had to learn from someone, and since there is absolutely no evidence that farmer George Angstadt was a gunsmith, it's very likely that Moll was the guy the old history books are remembering when they say George Angstadt had a gunsmith shop there very early on. So potentially, Adam Angstadt may have been Moll's apprentice. It's very interesting that a number of the rifles attributed to him (Adam) have somewhat of a three-petal or fleudelis shaped box finial, exactly as Moll apparently was casting when he moved to Allentown.
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Eric,
We’ve brought to light more about Adam than Gideon. Was a good thread, we’ll chat more on the flip side.
Buck
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Hello everyone.
I inherited this gun a few years ago. While attending the recent craftsman show in Lewisburg Pa. I showed a few pictures to a gentleman who had a beautiful collection of originals. He suggested it might have been made by Gideon Angstadt. All I know about this gun is that it came from a family that lived in Oley Pa. In researching Gideon I came across this post. I hope this is helpful. I would love to hear thoughts on this unique gun.
Dave Lentz
(https://i.ibb.co/C5twGYR/20220214-121001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7JzSmZs)
(https://i.ibb.co/XLgL5Xx/20220214-121548.jpg) (https://ibb.co/H4s4P7T)
(https://i.ibb.co/1bD49Wj/20220214-121328.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GFKrVSN)
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Dave I just sent you an email! Sorry for the delay.
Can you make out any lettering at all between the 'G' marking and the star? There's a considerable space there which would cause me to wonder if there had been more of a first name that may have been worn away; the decorative emphasis on many signatures (not all, but certainly many) was on the first initials, and so I wonder if the remainder of the letters might have been more lightly engraved and subsequently susceptible to faster wear.
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I recently acquired what I believe to be an Angstadt rifle. Photos are in this thread: https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=73860.0