AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Majorjoel on July 12, 2020, 09:04:44 PM
-
I do not have a clue as to why this rifle is attributed to Samuel Hawken but thought it would generate some interest here. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/872664457
I do not have anything to do with this piece or this seller. Just my disclaimer :)
-
I'd need to something in writing from Baird or Dawson before I accepted it as a Hawken product. Even if it is, i personally wouldn't give North of $14K for it.
Roger B.
-
An asking price that high would require an attribution to somebody, anybody.
Firearm attributions, are often opinions, based on perceived characteristics, that could apply to a number of different firearms.
A very experienced collector once advised me to "never buy anything that you have to explain".
-
"never buy anything that you have to explain".
That is good advice.. Even if only trying to convince yourself.
-
I certainly don't claim to know anything as much as the two esteemed attritutors presented here, but I'd say if it was a Hawken rifle, it would say so on the top of the barrel, like all of their collective rifles. I would concede though that it may be a St. Louis rifle from the same era...there was a heap of competition from a myriad of gunsmiths during the western expansion and its supply.
-
I have a half stock rifle with the EXACT same patch box. My rifle is signed (stamped) " J.Haberstro Buffalo NY.
The GB photo looks precisely the same as mine, no kidding,unreal..
Lock looks like mine also, but perhaps slightly different
Regards,
Dave B
-
Dave here again...
I forgot to mention that the box lid on my rifle is also stamped with Haberstro's name.
The GB rifle is stamped in the same location but is not readable in the photo.
Regards,
DGB
-
Note the tag is NOT in the handwriting of either author who the tag writer claims made the attribution. There is NO letter with this rifle from either author, only a tag written by some unknown person claiming the two authors attributed the rifle...with no verification that such an attribution was ever made by them. I bet the two well-known authors might be less than happy if they knew their names were attached to a tag on this "Hawken" rifle. Shelby Gallien
-
I forgot to mention that the box lid on my rifle is also stamped with Haberstro's name.
Regards,
DGB
I believe that "Haberstro" can be attributed to Old Norse for "Hawken". Looks like you've hit the jackpot Dave! ;)
-
I noticed this gun about the time it was posted. I have Bairds books, and I am with all y'all. I dont believe it is what is represented to be. I am a long ways from expert,but it just aint right for some reason. Nice a gun as it is, I would think it would have been stamped Hawken,if they ,or some of their hands, did the work.
To be fair, no telling how many such guns passed thru Jake and Sams shop and were refit.Still, I would be extremely careful about buying it.
Where is Don Stith when we need him? Dave F 8) 8)
-
Haberstro was a New York maker
-
Well with the starting bid at $8950 I doubt that we will see it sell for 2K.
Fleener
-
In cases like this I often wonder if the current owner/seller is not very knowledgeable and was misled.
-
In cases like this I often wonder if the current owner/seller is not very knowledgeable and was misled.
Wonder how many times this sort of transaction happens on the same gun over the years?
Undocumented attribution is like hearsay evidence and inadmissible as proof amongst astute collectors. Wait hold the phone-says in the description a copy of the Baird study is included-I reckon that's certified enough for some folks.
But didn't we see a marked fake go for authentic money a little while back? And never heard of any backlash from the buyer-as one might expect if the new owner wasn't pleased with his/her purchase.
Unless it was kept quiet as part of a resolution (if there was any).
-
Looks like it was sprayed with shellac. Is that a crack visible on one side of the wrist? Maybe it's grain the finish didn't fill? I'm not trying to devalue the gun, just asking the experts here.
-
The rifle is NOT Hawken built. The rifle was made in the northeast.
-
Dave here again...
I forgot to mention that the box lid on my rifle is also stamped with Haberstro's name.
The GB rifle is stamped in the same location but is not readable in the photo.
Regards,
DGB
Settled.
-
From the description on Gunbroker.
"The John Baird study is included with the purchase of the rifle. I have received a couple of comments that it is either a New York gunsmith rifle or a New England rifle. The Baird study of this particular rifle is included, it also states that it may have been produced in Ohio prior to the move to Mo. If you purchase the rifle and are unsatisfied with the included documentation furnished will refund your money including shipping provided the gun is in as shipped condition."
It doesn't look like the guy is trying to pull a fast one.
-
No matter how many naysayers we can count, as always it only takes two bidders to make an auction interesting, and two to make the final trade.
-
AS Wade says, it only takes two bidders. I would like to think no one would believe this gun to be by Hawken.. But I wouldn't bet the farm on that.. I have seen things sell before that I couldn't believe .. I think some fellows get involved in winning the bid war more than buying the gun...LP
-
The rifle is NOT Hawken built. The rifle was made in the northeast.
PLease tell us how you KNOW this?
Dennus
-
Dennis, my buddy DGB has a gun by same hand, signed, identical patchbox, similar architecture. See above. Maker is known.
-
Rich,
Yes I read all the posts and I have no idea if the rifle is what the owner says it is. Presumably he based his thoughts on the written Baird report that none of us have read. The owner has enough confidence in that report to offer a money back guarantee which in my mind means he believes Baird believes it has ties to a Hawken builder.
I have no doubt your friends rifle is a signed rifle with some exact and some similiar traits to the one at auction. Builders today quite often make copies of other builders work I would assume this was also done in earlier years. In fact I have seen in my Gillespie family at least two rifles that have traits copied from their contemporaries. Just curious how someone would positively know that an unsigned rifle was made in a certain area of the country.
Dennis
-
Dennis, I guess that sort of thing happened but if prevalent, all attributions of unsigned rifles just took a major hit. Sam Hawken, before relocating to St.Louis, had his own style.
Old undocumented attributions from 40 years ago may need re-examination given all that has come to light since then.
Occam’s razor and all.
-
Here is one on Guns International with a letter from Baird:
https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/antique-rifles-1500-1850/samuel-hawken-rifle.cfm?gun_id=101469758
Interesting rifle I remember seeing this one on GI I think back in 2015 or 2016 and it was stated it sold for $109,000 or so if I recall.
Rob
-
Back in the late 70's I was at a gun show in upstate NY and walking through the show I was draw to a rifle on a stand on one of the benches. The tag said St Louis Hawken but looking over the rifle I clearly saw a Dimick stamp. I don't remember what the price was on it. The Hawken crazy was still fairly hot then and I wasn't well versed in those rifles then but knew enough to know it wasn't a Hawken..
Rob
-
I don't know if the rifle on Gunbroker is a Hawken or not. I'll leave that to the experts. However, I was struck by its similarity to a rifle that is marked J&S Hawken, which was shown on the Ambrose Antiques site as well as Cowan's auction site in 2017. Here are a couple of photos from Ambrose, which I saved in June, 2017:
(https://i.ibb.co/y41dx1s/J-S-Hawken-3.png) (https://ibb.co/xF0Xr05)
View of the lock. Note the acute angle in the lockplate just ahead of the bolster. Also the brass scroll triggerguard, and single trigger.
(https://i.ibb.co/zhxyttk/J-S-Hawken-2.png) (https://ibb.co/SXyhZZL)
Full-length view of the off side. This rifle was described as having a walnut stock and a 34", .50 caliber barrel. The same rifle was on the Cowan's auction website starting in February, 2017. While Ambrose Antiques took down the page with this listing, you can still view the rifle on the Cowan's website: J&S Hawken Fullstock (https://www.cowanauctions.com/lot/full-stock-percussion-sporting-rifle-by-j-s-hawken-st-louis-895333)
Interestingly, Cowan's said the rifle is .41 caliber, and "Property of N. Flayderman & Co." Ambrose said the rifle had "impeccable provenance," but did not share any details. Anyway, here are a couple of views from Cowan's website, that were not shown by Ambrose:
(https://i.ibb.co/TWjDRkb/2020-07-18-1.png) (https://ibb.co/J36W2Ky)
The tang is short. You can also see the J & S HAWKEN stamp on the top flat. The Ambrose/Cowan's rifle has a hooded front sight:
(https://i.ibb.co/yVnSSQZ/2020-07-18.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
For comparison, here are a few images of the Gunbroker rifle, described as .45 caliber and 55-1/4" OAL. I'm guessing about a 40" barrel, described as a "Full octagon, heavy barrel." In this close-up of the lock and breech, note the same acute angle in the lockplate, as on the Ambrose/Cowan's rifle. The triggerguard is different, although it does have a scroll and it is made of brass, so it is superficially similar to the guard on the other rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/nDf7W44/2020-07-18-5.png) (https://ibb.co/Xzp7w66)
This photo shows part of the cheekpiece. Note how the incised lines are not parallel, like on the other rifle:
(https://i.ibb.co/XFssxyg/2020-07-18-6.png) (https://ibb.co/vLPP4sG)
So, there are some differences. The sideplates are different, one rifle has a patchbox and the other has a hooded front sight. However, my general impression of these two rifles is that the stock architecture is very similar, with the wrist looking too thick in the vertical dimension. Both have deeply curved buttplates, brass scroll guards, single triggers, and heavy octagonal barrels in rather modest calibers for Hawkens. I won't get into the debate over whether either or both rifles are genuine Hawkens, but I would consider the possibility that they were both made by the same builder.
Offered for your consideration.
Best regards,
Notchy Bob
-
27 hours to the gavel.
But for the 15 minute rule-which I like, but won't affect my bidding on this item. ;D
no bids yet.
-
27 hours to the gavel.
But for the 15 minute rule-which I like, but won't affect my bidding on this item. ;D
no bids yet.
You puttin a mortgage on the farm Wade?
-
27 hours to the gavel. ...won't affect my bidding on this item. ;D
You puttin a mortgage on the farm Wade?
Far from it. I have no number to flash at the auctioneer when the smoke clears.
-
I feel bad for anyone bidding on the so called 'Hawken' rifle. Bad situation.
-
Darn, I forgot to bid on it.... ;D
-
I feel bad for anyone bidding on the so called 'Hawken' rifle. Bad situation.
You're not looking at the bright side. For just under 10 grand at the very least you might end up with a rare Haberstro :o ;D ::)!
-
Darn, I forgot to bid on it.... ;D
No worries.
Everyone forgot to bid on it.
So for the convenience of all, it was relisted. 6 days to go!
-
Here's a link to another Haberstro rifle with lots of pictures, I'll post a couple of them. Rifle sold at auction in 2018.
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/60653226_signed-j-haberstro-rifle-with-an-eagle-around-a
(https://i.ibb.co/ZXDqmCN/image.png) (https://ibb.co/DW20pnL)
(https://i.ibb.co/w6YwH19/image.png) (https://ibb.co/tC3xf57)
(https://i.ibb.co/s9JCRrY/image.png) (https://ibb.co/CKs68FG)
-
Wow Daniel, that's a darn fine rifle!
-
Here's a link to another Haberstro rifle with lots of pictures, I'll post a couple of them. Rifle sold at auction in 2018.
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/60653226_signed-j-haberstro-rifle-with-an-eagle-around-a
(https://i.ibb.co/ZXDqmCN/image.png) (https://ibb.co/DW20pnL)
(https://i.ibb.co/w6YwH19/image.png) (https://ibb.co/tC3xf57)
(https://i.ibb.co/s9JCRrY/image.png) (https://ibb.co/CKs68FG)
Does this Haberstro rifle look like it has faux striping? ??? :-\ :o
-
If it is phony striping, it's the best job I've seen. I'd say no. Looks real to me, especially under the patch box and cheek piece & wrist, well, all over.
-
Thanks Daryl, Most of it looks real to me also , but I thought they might have filled in some of the striping. :o
-
OK folks, this is the last time I will post about this rifle. Look at the top rifle in this auction and read the description.
https://www.icollector.com/Seven-Antique-Long-Guns-A-Golcher-Marked-Half-Stock-Percussion-Rifle-B-Unmarked-Flobert-Single-S_i9513794
-
I have inspected this rifle thoroughly years ago and there is absolutely nothing about this rifle that indicates it was made by the Hawken brothers ! There used to be a letter with this rifle written by John Baird . It was full of hog wash ! I do like Baird's books and he did a lot of gathering good information and I agreed a lot with some of his opinions from time to time but he sure missed it on this one . This is a New York made rifle and I too have seen several guns just like this rifle marked by the New York maker. Don't be fooled by a Baird letter , at one time he wanted everything to be a Hawken !
-
I have inspected this rifle thoroughly years ago and there is absolutely nothing about this rifle that indicates it was made by the Hawken brothers ! There used to be a letter with this rifle written by John Baird . It was full of hog wash ! I do like Baird's books and he did a lot of gathering good information and I agreed a lot with some of his opinions from time to time but he sure missed it on this one . This is a New York made rifle and I too have seen several guns just like this rifle marked by the New York maker. Don't be fooled by a Baird letter , at one time he wanted everything to be a Hawken !
Thanks for your expert opinion on the matter. I was already swayed by folks who haven't touched it. Makes sense that Baird would have been excited to find more, rather than less "Hawkens" because of his work. That's not an accusation, just an observation.
Bidding has been slow for sure, hope it's a reflection upon buyers being informed and not just an economic thing. Saddens me to see "unlikely legends" traded on as authentic when experts agree that they're not. Wonder how long they'll keep re-listing it? It expires again in 4 days.