AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: adkmountainken on July 13, 2020, 03:23:40 AM
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i have shot muzzleloaders for 32 years now and consider myself a pretty fair shot FROM A BENCH. a good friend who shoots with me asked if i wanted to participate in this months postal shoot on another forum and i agreed. now in my 32 years of shooting smoke pole i can count on 1 hand how many times i have auctauly shot free hand besides when hunting! i have just always sighted in and shot from a bench. today i was shooting Miss Fish my .45 flinter rebuilt by the late Tim Brown of Oregon. this gun is DEAD NUTS from a bench! i can tell you its a humbling experience when actually shooting free hand for score! i feel both of us shot well and i was happy but i am so use to bench and cloverleaf groups at 20 yards it was a bit depressing yet still great fun! i now have a new fire lit under me to improve my free hand shooting! you just never stop learning in this sport!
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Ya offhand is my favorite way to shoot my flintlocks and the only way I do normally shoot them. For me it’s a great challenge shooting them at 100 yards. I think I have only shot a couple from the bench once or twice.
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If hunting, I'll always take a lean on whatever is handy. Won't use off-hand for longer distances at all.
Best,
Richard.
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I rarely shoot from the bench and never out of a box. I have yet to see a box or a bench on a woodswalk or trail shoot. Always out of a bag. Amazing what the bibskinners and box shooters need to shoot. Good luck shooting offhand. I think u will realize how accurate u can become with practice. And how frustrating it can be the next day shooting the same gun and loads.
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What adkmountain ken neglected to share was another learning experience he and I had today. Too much talking and not enough paying attention to details left me with a patched ball on top of no powder. First time I’ve done this. He suggested dribbling powder in through the touch hole, prime the pan and shoot it out. Actually worked. Thankfully, cuz I don’t have a ball puller for 32.
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I have been an offhand shooter all my life. Only use a bench to tune and sight in. I have been a good shot and some said I was a great shot. When I started shooting flintlocks I got really humbled. I'm still trying to learn to not raise my head and or listen to the frizzen opening. I use ear plugs and muffs when practicing to keep me from hearing the clack before the bang. I'm a better shot hunting than I am target shooting. I'm going to beat this flintlock thing and if I can learn to shoot them offhand as well as I can shoot other guns I'll be a crack shot.
To people like George Sutton, Mr. Flintlock and the rest of you good shooters my compliments to you. You have mastered a difficult gun to shoot accurately.
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For me, bench shooting and offhand shooting are so different it is almost like 2 different sports. Like riding a bicycle on a road versus a gnarly mountain bike trail.
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Apples vs Oranges...
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I never ever bench shoot. Not even to sight in a gun. Offhand is the proper way to shoot a gun.
The only way to get good at it is to do it 100% of the time.
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I would get very frustrated trying to sight in a gun if I was just shooting off hand.
Fleener
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I never ever bench shoot. Not even to sight in a gun. Offhand is the proper way to shoot a gun.
The only way to get good at it is to do it 100% of the time.
I do bench shoot to sight in and develop loads but I don’t get much satisfaction bench shooting for sport but do enjoy it dialing in distances, etc. I like to shoot supported when possible in a hunting situation but of the hundreds of rabbits I’ve taken not one has fallen to supported fire. (Nothing like rabbit hunting in Alaska on peak Rabbit years. It’s like ‘Whackamole’).
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I found that my POI from a bench was different from my offhand POI. So, I stopped doing it. I start real close to get the sights close. Then when I can put the ball in the same hole I start to move back farther. It probably takes longer than a bench but I enjoy it more.
Plus, i'd have to go to a range to shoot from a bench. The only thing I hate more than shooting from a bench is doing it at a range. We can shoot anywhere in National Forest as long as we have a good backstop. So, I do all my shooting there. It's only 5 min away and the range is 40 min away. Easy decision for me.
I'm happiest when i'm alone. I do all my shooting and hunting alone. It's who I am. An old mountain man. :)
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Right Pete. The POI can be different.
That is what I was thinking when I read the OP's post. If you only shoot from the bench, you don't know where it will hit offhand. If the gun wasn't sighted for offhand, the OP's shooting could have been fine, but he could still miss.
That is why Daryl and I have pointed out that when shooting from the bench for a gun to be used elsewhere, hold the gun like it will be used in the field. Hold the foreend with your hand, and support your hand on the rest. Also, sit up straight. The POI will not vary offhand as much.
One other thing to keep in mind.....the OP notes his gun shoots cloverleafs at 20 yards. Even smooth bores will shoot good at 20 yards. Try the gun out at 50 yards, 75 yards, 100 yards. You'll learn a lot, and perhaps find out you have not yet located the optimum load for that gun.
Once sighted, I only shoot offhand. I use clay birds and rubber seal-healing targets at the 50 yard line. I have found swamped barrel longrifles to hang in the hand better offhand than anything modern I've tried. I guess the old guys knew what they were doing.
I hope this helps. God Bless, Marc
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(https://i.ibb.co/9tbtyNW/92774i2-ts.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gVSVt3J)
I HATE shooting ranges and having to deal with other people as well. When I go to my buddies farm and shoot, he does not have any shooting tables or benches. SO, for less then $50 bucks you can buy a MTM shooting table. It is not rock solid, but it is not bad either. I like it since it is light and easy to throw into a vehicle.
I use mine quite a bit for sighting in a rifle.
Fleener
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I agree that swamped barrels hold better. I can't believe how long I can hold Dennis's old gun in comfort. The barrel is 38" and holds better than barrels 10" shorter that aren't swamped.
Swamped barrels and offhand go together like peanut butter and jam. :)
btw..I'm not recommending that others sight in offhand. It works for me but i've been shooting offhand exclusively for 69 years. It's all I know.
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I am with OldMtnMan. I always sight mine in offhand cause that’s how I shoot. I know last time I shot with a somewhat local club I was doing some final filing of a front sight when I was shooting offhand. A couple of the guys were surprised that’s how I was doing it. I don’t think they believed me that there could be a difference sighting them in offhand compared to off a bench. I told them I wasn’t sure cause I have never sighted one in from a bench. The only time I have shot off bags was to see if it was the rifle or me not getting good groups at 100 yards and every time it was me!!
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Took a little practice to get here. but I did and it was educational in all regards.
.45 Turpin Flintlock, 50 yards offhand
(https://i.imgur.com/2iYPhqR.jpg)
One thing led to another and while this isn't match grade shooting, it works for me.
(https://i.imgur.com/dbOtflM.jpg)
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Dead elk/deer at 50 yds and maybe 100 yds.
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I use to be a pretty good offhand shooter but the ravages of time and no practice have taken their toll. A couple of targets from days gone by with the same .54 flintlock....crow at 50 and buffalo at 100 yards.
(https://i.ibb.co/y0FY4KC/20200713-164009.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nrMnP4y)
(https://i.ibb.co/6brj8yv/20200713-164043.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WFGm0HD)
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Yes, you were a good offhand shot. You can get it back. You just need practice.
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I can't recall ever taking a shot at a deer standing-off hand. I do shoot rounds frequently from the bench but I mostly shoot from "field positions", sitting, kneeling, etc. I still do shoot off hand some for the challenge. My eyes are very poor now but I once shot very well standing up. For me, if I want to shoot a lot off hand, a straight barrel 42" that's a little muzzle-heavy works much better than a swamped barrel. I like swamped in the field but straight at the targets. In the bush I would always drop to a knee - can't even do that these days - rather than risk a standing shot.
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let me try to clarify a bit more. i started shooting black powder around 1985 and NONE of my friends were shooting at the time. my first gun was a TC .58 Big Bore and i killed a doe the first year i hunted with it. i absolutly fell in love with muzzleloaders and its by far my favorite way to hunt. i am more hunter then target shooter, most of my target shooting was to sight my muzzleloaders in and i have had MANY over the years. if its not hunting season Sunday usually finds me at the range working up a load for one of my muzzleloaders, i currently have 3 i still need to sight in and work up a hunting load for. i have taken 3 deer off hand with a muzzleloader, all 3 were taken as i was still hunting and did not have time to find a something to "rest" the gun against. i never shot at an event yet but have watched many. i am no novice to black powder just have rarely shot off hand as i had stated i cant make many events so most of my shooting is load development and sighting it. there for when i miss hunting i am quite certain it is operator error as my rifles are spot on. still love shooting to this day as much as i did day one! have taken my 1/2 dozen turkeys and deer with muzzleloader and let me tell you those hunts stick out in my mind more then others. with that said i do now seem to enjoy off hand shooting even though not shooting groups like i was at bench. by the way when i shoot what i call "bench rest" i do not use anything other then my elbows or laying the gun over my range box.
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I would get very frustrated trying to sight in a gun if I was just shooting off hand.
Fleener
Amen twice!
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Ken......We still differ quite a bit. In 69 years of hunting I haven't killed any game except by still hunting and offhand. They go together as far as i'm concerned because most shots are taken pretty fast with a lot of them running shots. Even if I wanted to use a rest (never) I don't have time. I've never lost any game. If i'm not sure of the shot I don't shoot.
I don't call it the best way to hunt but it's how dad taught me and my brother and I loved it so much I stayed with it. It always puts a smile on my face.
My practice is just like my hunting. Woods walks and shooting knots in dead trees from different angles and distances. I shoot longer shots during practice to make my hunting shots seem easy.
Do anything all your life and you'll get a bit better at it. Specialize to get good at something. As long as you enjoy it. If you don't enjoy it? Find something you do enjoy and don't give a lick what others think about it. Never ever do something to please others.
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I only use a rest for load development. Don't really care where the group goes as I only shoot for group. Most clubs do not have benches adequate for shooting MLs. So I do my load work off cross sticks. The only rifle I would finish sighting of the sticks is across sticks rifle.
Once a load is settled on, I proceed to sight the rifle offhand. Pistols I only sight in offhand.
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We need some beer ( or Coffee) and a campfire to sit around for this. Indeed I wish I could meet some of you guys. Everybody is right, everybody is wrong, and this thread is testimony to the wisdom of one man's meat...
Going back to the 18th century, how did folks shoot? We know that guys jacked deer because they had to eat, and the conventional wisdom was that a rifleman always braced his gun when he shot. Having always favored shooting out of the bag and being in only offhand matches, only recently have I taken to the bench. Hasn't changed point of aim/point of impact at all when going back to standing up.
This weekend the Saugerties Landowners are having a trail shoot and I am thinking of tearing up my score card and bracing every shot, just for the heck of it.
If I ever hve to depend on my rifle, guess who won't be shooting offhand...
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Nobody is forcing you to shoot offhand kid. Don't assume everybody shoots offhand like you do.
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The only ‘range’ I ever shoot at is the Walter Cline once or twice a year. At home I shoot in the woods in an attempt to ‘find’ the old ways, so to speak. I find offhand a necessary skill as is shooting braced. Too often in the woods I spot my prey, freeze, and being 3 feet from a tree might as well be 3 miles. It’s an offhand shot or nothing. When I walk up on a Turkey at 25y I don’t need to brace. When I’m leaning against a tree and one walks up to me I don’t brace either. Stalking deer I may or may not brace under about 40y depending on time and the convenience of a good tree or log. Squirrels way up a tree get a brace and the most focus I can muster. If they’re 5’ up a tree, vertical, and wagging their finger in my face, likely not. I understand, depending on your personality type a hobby/sport like shooting and hunting will either hyperfocus your interest or broaden it. I have friends who’ve hunted all their life stare at me all incredulous when I suggest they try hunting outside the stand or blind. I just don’t see it, from my frame of reference, as an either or. Offhand practice will make all your shooting better.
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OldMtn and Bob...A little testy here guys? I didn't say shooting offhand OR braced, I said shooting offhand AND braced. Between eyesight, arthur-itis and overall aging I have to do both
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I think it was gun writer Ross Seyfried who said, "most hunters are not shooters and most shooters are not hunters" That holds up pretty good from my experience these past 69 short years. Both have fun though and doing one don't mean you're having less fun than the other. It also don't mean you are right or wrong. Shooting is just plain fun no matter what position you use. And I think it would be fair to say that most bench shooters are not offhand shooters and vice versa. It seems to me that the traditional muzzleloading crowd has more people who are shooters and hunters than perhaps any other gun group. In the end, if you don't like your abilities with the flintlock, you should shoot more. Shooting is fun so the worse you think you are, the more fun you have in store. ;) ;)
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OldMtn and Bob...A little testy here guys? I didn't say shooting offhand OR braced, I said shooting offhand AND braced. Between eyesight, arthur-itis and overall aging I have to do both
Not testy here. Preachy maybe. I have to focus to make what I write match what I’m thinking and feeling. This medium is not very conducive to translating emotion well I find, especially if I’ve been on the tractor all day and my brain is rattled.
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I've been mostly a still hunter rather than use a blind, tho I sure have used a blind the past few years. Getting harder to walk and chew gum at the same time.
I've had a "built in" tremor most of my life, and therefore use whatever brace I can when hunting. I was taught to shoot first by the Marines when Dad was stationed in the Philippines in the mid-50's. Carried on learning when we returned to the States, mostly at the indoor range at the Marines HQ in Washington DC - it was OK to ride a bus from Falls Church with rifle in hand.
The Marines definitely DO shoot offhand, but will use a brace whenever possible. Only common sense when you really need to hit the target before the target can hit you.
Still love to hunt, and still love a day at the range. I use the bench there.
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Well, hunting isn't like war. The game won't shoot back. I've never felt a need to use a brace while hunting. If I can't make the shot offhand I probably shouldn't be taking the shot.
I'm sure I pass up more shots than the average hunter. I never feel like I have to make a kill. There's always another day. The game has a right to live if it's smart enough to beat me. The only reason I can say i've never taken any game but by shooting offhand and have never lost any game is to not ever take chancy shots.
Hunting is more than the kill. Just like fly fishing is more than catching fish. It's not what you get hunting or fishing. It's how you do it. Did you give the game every chance? Did you use fair chase? Did you hunt for the meat and the challenge or did you hunt to stroke your ego?
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I should have kept my above post to myself. I'm very strict with myself and shouldn't push it on anybody else.
Everyone is free to hunt as you want to. As long as it's legal.
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I have been shooting all my life, as long as I can remember back, I am 63 in September. but it was rimfire and centerfire and cap locks, I have killed several deer off hand at 100yds and beyond off hand. when I started with flintlocks it was a whole new ball game. and I was embarrassed! I had to learn not to flinch, something I did not do with modern rifles. what helped me and stopped my flinch problem with off hand shooting was I would put it in my mind when I touched off the trigger not to move until I counted 3, of course I can't get 1 counted before the ball has left the barrel. since I started doing that no more flinch. and I have had flash in the pan I do not move. it worked for me,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Shooting off hand is a skill which can be learned with practice. As in all things, some folks will be better at it than others. Off hand shooting is where the balance and general handling characteristics of a swamped barrel really shine. My first swamped barrelled rifle was an eye opener.
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I shattered the heck out of a leg and messed my back and neck up. I shot offhand competitively, for fun and hunting and thought I was good at it, now I'm trying all over again to build muscle up to be steady enough to shoot as good as I want. My dad used to practice and got me started at raising the gun and holding on a spot on the wall or a mark, holding it to the count of ten then remounting. He'd do this at least 50 times a day and it really helps, especially in the late winter when you don't get out much.
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I've always gone by the adage that a bench shows you how the gun shoots, offhand shows how well you shoot (or not). 10 of our 12 monthly club matches are offhand, to that's mainly how we all shoot. I sight in and work up loads on a bench, but that's about it. For hunting I take a rest on a tree, branch or stand if I can, offhand if not. I figure it best to respect the game with the best shot you can make, but I practice offhand so I'm ready when that's the shot in the woods.
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About the only thing you have control of when hunting, is the ability to place a projectile on target. Most hunters do not practice with their weapons enough. It should be a year around thing, not just the 2 weeks before hunting season. Hunting is a life style, shooting is a sport.
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OldMtnMan...I should have kept my above post to myself. I'm very strict with myself and shouldn't push it on anybody else.
Good Lord, Man...don't do that! There's a lot more value to these posts than not.
I watched a video the other day about some feller who picked up a rusty Cabela's rifle and then professed to clean and shoot it. Did not have a clue about what is right and wrong and then put a .45 ball down a .50 rifle with a thick patch.. Compare that lunacy to the high quality of Bob' TV. Who do you want next to you on the line shooting?
Like I said earlier...the only thing lacking from the value of guys' posts here is a beer or some coffee....ok, maybe a campfire...
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When you have an animal in your sight, whatever you have to do to make a fast and accurate kill, is fair. First you want to make sure the animal isn't just wounded and runs off and you can't find it. Off hand is great if it doesn't compromise the shot. I have no idea what war has to do with this.
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Offhand shooting is a learned skill. Bench shooting is learning to operate the equipment to its best performance by removing as many variables as possible. Both are fun.
I never miss a chance to brace. Mostly on the guard rail of my ladder stand. I don't have the acreage to stalk hunt.
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When my Dad was still alive and well, we started shooting our flintlocks at clay pigeons propped up on the orchard grass offhand, starting at 20 yards. We would alternate shots, 5 apiece. If we missed any, we continued at that yardage. Once we broke all ten birds, we would move them back 10 yards. We continued this every Sunday until we ran them straight at 75 yards. It took a lot of the summer but we each honed our offhand shooting. We were humbled quite a few times, that’s for sure but we certainly were better shots when fall arrived. Quality time spent with Dad, that’s for sure!
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There is a documented passage of a Rifle Co. Capt, likely sonthern, of his men using a brace with moss to pad it.
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Several decades ago I was shooting in the SE Regionals and in the 50 yard offhand I managed to place third. I though this was pretty good for me. But I practiced shooting offhand a lot and I got real good at it too. The 50 yard bull was always my match. It would take close to a 50 with a few X's to beat me.
As good as I was I always looked for a brace of some sort when a shot at game presented itself. That brace made me a better shot with cleaner, faster kills. I depend on a brace even more so as I've gotten older.
As far as I'm concerned shooting form and concentration on the front sight and target are the secrets to offhand shooting. With concentration on driving that front sight into the target the most important. Beyond that you can fine tune it by working with your feet position, arm strength, and how you hold the rifle. And a lot of practice.
A couple of years ago I got a chance at a nice doe but when I squeezed the trigger I got a dreaded flash in the pan. My front sight was still nailed behind her shoulder and I held the rifle on target and reached up and flipped back the frizzen, dumped some prime in the pan and closed the frizzen. Then I took the shot and bagged some nice venison. The rifle never left my shoulder. Shots like that are the result of years of offhand training.
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Hunting is more than the kill. Just like fly fishing is more than catching fish. It's not what you get hunting or fishing. It's how you do it. Did you give the game every chance? Did you use fair chase? Did you hunt for the meat and the challenge or did you hunt to stroke your ego?
I agree and feel 100% the same
Tony
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Three score years ago and more, I was shooting prone at Camp Perry, OH. Range was 1,000 yards - but it wasn't a ML with black powder.
Then I started shooting offhand at 100 yards, .58 cal 1863 Springfield. Mostly we shot at clay pigeons taped to a piece of plywood, but targets could be something as simple as shooting empty beer cans off a rail.
I enjoyed it all, and would always return home with a face streaked with BP residue.
I was MUCH better offhand at 100 yd than I was prone at ten times that distance!
But yet today, lacking a bench, I sight in from the prone position. I like to get the rifle shooting it's best before tackling offhand shooting.
Longest shot offhand was 220 yards at a doe right at daybreak on a misty morning in Oklahoma. She dropped immediately, shot through the spinal cord. If it hadn't been for all the bench practice, I would have never thought of taking the shot. And yes, shot prone to sight in that .45 longrifle.
But age took it's toll - took me about an hour to get her, gutted, into the back of my wheels. She weighed 175 lb, gutted, at the check station. Neighbors and I ate well for quite a few meals.
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I got enough standing shooting the 50 years I shot NRA HP matches to last me two lifetimes!
I left the hustle/bustle of that plus travel time years ago so now at age 80 I shoot from the bench. When I hunt I have a rest; either a stick or the side of a blind! It's a pleasure to me these days just to see how well these front stuffers will shoot and they shoot mighty fine. My eyes are still good....so you youngsters can shoot all the offhand you want to....I'll wear out my bench!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1778/42270206850_4468639b03_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/27pgRPQ)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/27pgRPQ) by Sharps Man (https://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/), on Flickr
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Good solid looking bench Sharpsman - semi-portable too.
Here's one that I take out & set up in the fields for gopher shooting.
Folds up flat and goes into the back of the truck along with a chair.
(https://i.ibb.co/SnTLCGv/new-bench-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yyT3j7s)
BTW- THAT is the position I use for sighting in my rifles. I find THAT position, holding the forend in the left hand with that hand on the bag, gives me the same POI as shooting offhand.
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Daryl
Yep on the tow! I've got a bar with a round ball hitch that just shoves up inside the square tubing and the seat is adjustable for elevation. That came in handy when I was teaching my grandkids marksmanship.
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I don’t have near the experience as many on this site but I’ve been shooting muzzleloaders since I was 12 (I’m 60). I hunt with all my smoke poles and that said, it’s how I practice, it’s how I develop loads and ball/patch combos. The bench is good for dialing in a new to me ML but once it’s grouping and the sights adjusted I move into offhand, kneeling and sitting. It never fails that the deer you’re trying to harvest comes in on your offside or leaves you stuck in some contorted shooting position. I’ve found that squirrel hunting with my .32 helps me learn to ease into a solid shooting position and sometimes I’m lucky enough to get a supported shot off thanks to a tree trunk or branch. As a longtime traditional bow Hunter, I have the discipline to practice and find that hunting big game or small game is every bit as challenging and often more so than doing the same with stick and string. I can easily impress myself with some of the shots I can make from a bench rested longrifle but we don’t have that luxury on a trail walk or in the deer woods.
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A table and rest definitely help with load development... I have a better idea what charge/ball/patch combos will group like if I take as much of me out of the equation as possible.
Once I know for sure I leave the table and rest/bags in the truck and shoot. And sometimes I'll sit down on the ground with my back against the truck tire and my knees up for a little steady support.
If I'm after squirrels I'll rest up against a tree trunk if one is handy but I have made some pretty dandy offhand shots at near vertical elevation and brought home the meat.
No matter what just get out and SHOOT.
Mike
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I not only use a bench for sighting in as I noted on page 2, but also when working up loads. I hold the forend at the same location as when shooting offhand
and rest the back of that hand on the bag that sits on my adjustable rest. I hold it this way, as the point of impact is the same as when shooting offhand,
for sight adjustment.
I use a bench rest for working up loads, to remove as much human error as possible - I oft times just rest the forend on the bag when doing this as that
bench position is usually more stable than when holding the forend. Depending on the rifle, the difference in point of impact can be substantial and cannot
be trusted to be the same as offhand shooting.
We shoot the trail-walk offhand, with no rests allowed. We do have a weak-hand shot that used to be sitting, but the log we used for that has deteriorated
over the course of years we've been shooting this trail. Thus, this is a weak-hand, standing shot. What fun!
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I have reached a point in my life (73 with COPD and Heart failure) that I go for any support I can get when hunting or just shooting. I just cant hold the gun out there very long. Even this has not stopped me from shooting and hunting. There are always work arounds. Sure its great to stand on your own two feet and blaze those deer and targets but that time has past for me. I have even started carrying a pretty good stick to help me walk and shoot. No, I am not embarrassed at all..... Nuff said.
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The collaspable walking stick/shooting rests are quite interesting. A close friend of mine is a big game guide still, and
packs one of the bipod ones, with 2 legs, for his hunters to use. It has a V rest on top and an carrying handle, with a
push button for extending the legs. You hold it out with the rifle in the notch, pull the trigger and the legs drop down
and lock when you release the trigger.
Here is one, I don't know if this is a US or Canadian site. So - the actual price might be what shows, or a LOT lower.
It is available with 1 leg, 2, or 3.
So, it can be a shooting aid as well as a walking aid.
https://www.fieldandstreamshop.com/p/trigger-stick-gen-3-tall-bipod-18busutrggrstckgntgs/18busutrggrstckgntgs?uniqueID=4680762
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My take....
Off hand shooting is a physical activity that I condition train for, eg a lot of reps sighting the rifle off hand, add in dry firing to train trigger squeeze. The goal is to be able to hold on sight and pull the trigger. I’m recently purchased a flintlock and spend time conditioning muscles for sight hold, use a dummy flint to condition for sight and sound of lock releasing in front of my face while remaining focus on front sight and sight picture, also I go on back patio load a flint into the top jaw, prime the pan and condition myself for the pan flash while holding on sighted object. All that is missing is the BOOM, but that I do at the range. :)
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Sounds like a great regime. Piece meal training, then putting everything together.
I should train but don't. I used to when I shot competition with unmentionables
and wore a younger man's clothes.
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69 years of hunting?! Dang. I don't care if you have nothing to hang on the wall, that sir, is one helluva feat!
For MLs I only use the bench to sight in. With a 42-in barrel I dislike the calisthenics of jumping up to reload! And of course recoil always seems worse from a bench.
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(https://i.imgur.com/HIBNt3pb.jpg) 54 TVM southern rifle. 50yds off hand 3 shots. 75gr. goex ol eynsford hor. PRB
but I am showing the best group, not the worst,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,