AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: John Morris on July 26, 2020, 05:45:04 PM
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Does anyone have a good source for gongs and targets? I've been finding that all is out there are the AR500 steel and they are asking quite a bit, even on Ebay.
If there is not a good source, I have been in touch with a seller on Ebay that would like to work with the BP community and make gongs and targets from A35 steel, less expensive, but since I am pretty new at this, I am not sure what size targets at what steel thickness are useful for the community.
Anyone have any suggestions I could pass on to the metal man target creator guy?
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A lot depends on how many shooters are going to be hammering these targets. If the club is small, and doesn’t host giant events mild steel will work fine. My clubs targets are predominantly mild steel of about 3/8” thickness. We don’t have a ton of shooters, and don’t host big events, so this works fine. The other down side of AR plate is it tends to fail when attachment nuts, or rings, are welded to the back of them. Getting good penetration on AR isn’t something most hobby welders can achieve.
Hungry Horse
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Thanks for the feedback, so mild steel and 3/8" as a general rule.
How about size? 8" diameter and above? I think I read somewhere in these forums that anything below 8" isn't of much use to us?
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Maybe for city slickers that require constant emotional reinforcement, but in my neck of the woods we will pretty much shoot at anything within reasonable range. If targets are all easy pleasy it’ll take forever to shoot all the tie breakers.
Hungry Horse
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I have all sizes and find them all useful. Varmint and squirrel guns get small 2” rounds or small silhouettes. I like one large gong at 100y. 8” and larger silhouettes at mid ranges. A large caliber will dent mild steel so all mine is ar500 except the squirrel silhouettes. I shot one of those with a 1842 HF and it teacupped it.
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Thanks for the feed back gents!
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Not to be pedantic... 8), but just so everyone knows. AR500 is a hardened steel that is commonly used for targets, some armored applications, truck plows and in mining. It is tempered and designed to be abrasion resistant, which makes it ideal for high wear applications. As such, and as a firearms target, it generally does not deform. Our agency uses 3/4” AR500 as targets for our Barrett rifles (.50BMG) as close as 100 meters using ball ammunition with no discernible damage. It therefore allows us to calculate with a high degree of predictability our ricochet trajectory’s.
For black powder applications, it is more than sufficient. Having said that, when Bill Raby gets his 4-bore up and running, I’d love to see the terminal effects of that ginormous ball on AR500. :o
Ez
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For matches our club had 3" circles at 50yds. and 6" circles at 100yds. with feet. About the same as the black on the paper targets. 3/8" mild steel. The better shooters could hit in the 20s out of 30 at 100. My best was 19 out of 30. So, it isn't an impossible shot. For general shooting 8" at 100 is a decent offhand/hunting practice target. Mild steel is BP only. The hole from a .223 will look like someone drilled hole in the mild steel.
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Go to a machine shop or a fabricating shop. they'll have a scrap bin that will have all sorts of scrap they'll likely give you. Mild steel, even when it is shot hard for twenty years, will make good targets, and if they're free or at least cheap, replacing broken ones is not a big deal. Most of the targets on our trail walk were installed in 1982 when we built the trail, and they are still being shot. Most are mild steel, have been drilled to receive a clevis or hook attaching system with chains for suspension. They are all sizes and shapes and set from 5 yards to 109 yards. We have 55 targets on our trail. During a rendezvous, we shoot half the trail each of two days, and have other events to fill in the day.
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I shoot on 1" AR500 plates all the time. We've shot them with everything you can think of, including .50BMG and not even so much as a divot. I bet the 100-300 yd targets have at least 10k impacts each by now and all we do is slap another coat of white paint on them.
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https://custommetalprod.com/
This company in MO uses AR400 and AR500 steel.
I had them custom make me some sil targets and they quoted me a price that I agreed to. The owner called me back the next day and said that he had given me the wrong price. It was lower then we agreed to. They also made them and shipped them in about half the time that he told me.
Needless to say I am a happy customer and I would buy from them again, and most likely will.
Fleener
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Here are some of my targets. They all are made out of 3/8-inch mild steel and are only shot at with my muzzleloaders using patched round balls. They have hundreds if not thousands of hits on the chicken and pig. I just had the squirrels made for my new .32 Mathew Gillespie "recreation" rifle. Now that I have the loads and sights figured out next week i will start putting dents in them.
Now if you want to see how to set up a shooting range go to Bob McBride's "Black Powder T.V." on You-tube this is a proper range and target set up. I just wish my wallet was thick enough to do something like that. In all seriousness it's the best private range I have ever seen
(https://i.ibb.co/2k6G4tw/Targets-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9rvQ5TJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/BGnzgqC/Targets-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r3d7Z4w)
(https://i.ibb.co/T195fXC/Targets-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8b1VC3h)
(https://i.ibb.co/CwDnKzC/Targets.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9pSqHNK)
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I worked with forklifts before retiring. Have several sections of the heavy forks as targets. Nothing has bothered them yet.
Be sure to hang them at an angle so any ricochet goes down. I have a .45 caliber hole in my belly from a too close shot at one, my stupidity. Luckily it did not penetrate seriously.
Don
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My gun club was given a bunch of clangers made from AR plate and since we are not just a muzzleloader club, they were shot at with modern firearms. The good news is they withstood everything thrown at them. The bad news is they were almost always out of commission because the attachment points failed. We are now boring them and securing them with large grade 8 bolts. These may eventually be at least semi trouble free, but it hasn’t happened yet.
Hungry Horse
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All our plates have to be "hung" at an angle to deflect ricochets down in to the dirt.
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Pre heating is very beneficial for abrasion resistant metals to keep welds from cracking
Fleener
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All our plates have to be "hung" at an angle to deflect ricochets down in to the dirt.
That’s how I do it. A 3” long 1/2” bolt with two nuts out at the end of the bolt holding the end of the chain. It allows a nice angle on the target to direct all shrapnel down. It also takes some of the force from high velocity stuff. About twice a year I have a chain give way but that’s many thousands of rounds per year and about two minutes to square away.
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Pre heating is very beneficial for abrasion resistant metals to keep welds from cracking
Fleener
I have my welder blow a couple holes in the plate for me with a plasma torch and use bolts and chain. Holds up a lot better.
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That is what I did for my range as well, holes for bolts to hang them.
Fleener
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All our plates have to be "hung" at an angle to deflect ricochets down in to the dirt.
That’s how I do it. A 3” long 1/2” bolt with two nuts out at the end of the bolt holding the end of the chain. It allows a nice angle on the target to direct all shrapnel down. It also takes some of the force from high velocity stuff. About twice a year I have a chain give way but that’s many thousands of rounds per year and about two minutes to square away.
Same as mine, most balls are found in dirt (assuming you hit the target :D) under the target ready for melting for reuse.
Dennis
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I've made targets from all kinds of scrap. Grader pan blades, motor grader blades, leaf springs, mild steel and many others. All work but some have very dull sound. The harder the steel the louder it will ding. The AR500 targets make a really nice ding that can be heard from a long ways off. I'd go with a minimum of 3/8" thick. Sportsmans Guide has lots of AR500 targets pretty cheap.
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I've made mine from whatever thick steel I had handy-but they're only good for rimfire and black powder. They will not hold up to modern projectiles at full speed, which is no problem for me.
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Since many of our targets are VERY old, continual pounding by round balls, most pure lead, but many of WW alloys in .60cal, lots of
the plates show damage. The damaged plates are mostly mild steel, some with eventual holes while others are simply bent or have chunks missing.
Many of these have been with us for close to 40years, though. They have been quite resilient, overall.
One target not quite that old, was a fairly long steel cylinder, 3/8" to 7/16" thick. Hanging inside, was a steel rod with a flat plate welded to it. A hit
on the outside of the cylinder would cause movement, which in turn cased the rod with plate to ring like a bell. Even the little .32 would make it ring
once. "ding"
My .69 would make it ring - ding-ga-ding-ga-ding for a full minute.
That one actually has a hole through the first layer of steel, facing the shooting line. Over time, the pounding takes it's toll, however slightly. There are a few
targets like this, but they still work.
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A few years back, a friend made a pair of upper body silhouette targets for me - out of 1/8" mild steel. First two shots at it with my .45 cal percussion rifle, at 100 yards, PRB, 70 gr ffg - made two neat holes in them. Used for .22 after that.
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A late friend of mine shot a moose with that load in .45 cal. perfect shot through the heart for an instant kill. He gave me the ball which I carry in my medicine bag around my neck at rendezvous.
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I have lots of steel targets made from 3/8” mild steel that I got from a local steel supplier. It was in plates that had been cut incorrectly for some project so it was put in the scrap pile and sold cheap. So check around and you might find a good buy.
Those critter targets have been pounded with everything from small bore m/l guns to .45-110 Sharps for the past 20+ years. Some of the buffalo in our herd of 50 are bowed a bit, even at 375 yds from the 500 gr bullets, but I just turn them around and eventually they get pounded back. The close up targets, 25-100 yds, get used for all caliber m/l & lever guns and will get a bend here and there but a big hammer takes care of it. Other than that, once in awhile a foot or base gets knocked off but can quickly be welded back on.
Ted K
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A late friend of mine shot a moose with that load in .45 cal. perfect shot through the heart for an instant kill. He gave me the ball which I carry in my medicine bag around my neck at rendezvous.
How very cool to have such a memento.
Ez
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After going to MN and shooting at Ted's buffaloes. I thought I had to have a herd as well. So, after a trip to the scrap yard I got 50 in my own herd as well.
Fleener
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Way to go Art. How big did you make them? I wonder where all the ones from the Ackley shoot went.
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Mine are the little ones for those we can’t speak about. Ackleys went to milian IL. I have been to that range shooting ML but the buffalos they don’t do them justice with matches IMO
Fleener
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Ted, the 3/8” mild steel in your neck of the woods must be a lot tougher than it is here. At a tradegun shoot at our range just after Christmas a few years ago we were shooting at a life size target of Santa Claus ( for cleaning out all our checking accounts). We shot at it a lot, and actually hit it a few times out there at 200 yards, and boy did he go down hard. At the end of the shoot I took a wack at him with my old trapdoor carbine because I couldn’t seem to hit it with my trade gun, at the crack of the rifle old Santa just slowly toppled over. I was very disappointed because I expected results similar to the tradegun. When I got to the target I found the target had a nice clean hole bored through it that barely transferred enough energy to knock it over.
Hungry Horse
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Hmmm. I have yet to have a cast lead ball or bullet go clean through any of ours but they get lots of pock marks. Poor Santa!
Ted K
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Taylor, that is a serious memento for your medicine bag. Hoping one day to get one from an elk that I have taken by myself.
Would love to have a range that I could use metal targets on. Long, long ago, I shot the 1,000 range at Camp Perry with one of those WWII unmentionables, and would love to shoot at 300 and 500 with the .62 cal Jaeger I am building. Just need to find a friendly farmer with a good backstop.
Have to put my hearing aids in to hear the "clang" at anything more than 100 yards!
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Recently renoed a bit and added some logs and a few more squirrel targets at 25 - 35 yards and got a 36" gong hung.
View of the pistol and squirrel rifle range.
(https://i.ibb.co/3v1c7jN/IMG-0025.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cwJQ1ZF)
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Bob
What is that wooden frame on the right side of the picture for?
Something to consider for a cheap and hard target to hit is a log chain. I have I think 4 different pieces of chain hanging at various yardages. You simply cant break them and they are cheap and easy to hang.
Fleener
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Bob 'ol buddy when it comes to ranges on ones own property there is no doubt yours is the best in the land. If anyone has a better one lets see it.
Someday when all this $#@* has passed I am coming to shoot on your range.
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Bob
What is that wooden frame on the right side of the picture for?
Something to consider for a cheap and hard target to hit is a log chain. I have I think 4 different pieces of chain hanging at various yardages. You simply cant break them and they are cheap and easy to hang.
Fleener
Hey Art, my short range shown there is in a holler. 50 yards behind me as i took the pic, and 10 feet higher is my short rifle bench and I shoot at the targets up the hill in the background of the pic over the pistol range which is at the same elevation as my short bench. If I'm working on midrange stuff I lay that movable target down and put my paper on the top section of the frame for a level shot. I use the bottom section for small caliber paper work.
I've thought about the logging chains, as it's a great idea. I need to get to an auction and pic another up (we have half a dozen heavy ones) but a logging chain is worth it weight in gold on a half wooded holler farm.
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Bob 'ol buddy when it comes to ranges on ones own property there is no doubt yours is the best in the land. If anyone has a better one lets see it.
Someday when all this $#@* has passed I am coming to shoot on your range.
You've threatened to do it, and I'm all in. I've got two fellers coming in from KY to spend the day Friday. Should be some good videos come out of that...
I think Hickok45 might have me beat though you only see a bit more than half my AR steel.
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I've got a 12" gong, 1 /2" thick. Think I paid about $70 for it... But it will probably last me the rest of my life. I haven't been able to dent it yet.
And when I hung it on the stand i didn't angle it down a lot... But at 300 meters I'm not too worried.
Mike
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I had access to some old steel diamond plate that I torched up into rectangular shapes and hung through 2 holes topside with chain. Smooth side as the target face. .As it’s struck it swings back putting that downward angle on the plate. No problem with ricochet at Longrifles ranges From my experience and besides round ball is pure soft lead.
Be careful when shooting steel up close and personal at typical defensive handgun ranges with lead alloy cause I ain’t gonna guarantee it won’t spit back at ya.
Don’t ask me how I know that but I figure it just adds to the realism of ccqb and makes ya know you’re alive!
I’ve also “recycled” defunct computer hard drives. It’s kinda fun to see how long they last before they fly apart. Good way to take out frustrations for those of us that must still own a “real” job.
AR500 is my favorite though and does give a satisfying ring when struck especially at Timothy Murphy distances.
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Don't know how ar500 steel targets are. However I have some 1/2" thick scrap steel that I have made targets from and worked fine with handgun bullets and even my 45-60 and 44 mag rifle with lead bullets. I let my son-in-law and his buddy go shooting on my range and they had AR15's and some green tip ammo. They shot holes through most of my steel targets. I wasn't real happy about it but can't turn back time. So don't let AR shooters on your muzzleloader rifle range is my advice.
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I have a ram set up across my beaver pond . It's 2 feet from nose to tail , welded up from 3/8 in mild steel. It has survived many thousands of hits from lead balls, and bullets . Distance is approx 2 hundred yards. One target that is a lot of fun is a steel triangle made of 1 in round bar steel. Set up at 50 yards, it rings loud and clear when struck with any round ball, .32 and up. It's light enough that I've taken it with me to various shoots as a novelty target.
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Hey that steel triangle sounds like a clever challenge. Can’t be called to supper until ye ring the dinner bell!
Thumbs up!
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If you want to weld AR500 plate you need a DC welding machine and 8018 0r 9018 welding rod. It will weld just like mild steel with 7018 low hydrogen welding rod.
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I shoot on 1" AR500 plates all the time. We've shot them with everything you can think of, including .50BMG and not even so much as a divot. I bet the 100-300 yd targets have at least 10k impacts each by now and all we do is slap another coat of white paint on them.
Pretty much the same for me. I shelled out about $75 for a 12" diameter gong 1 /2" thick.
I was somewhat skeptical but it has held up to my unmentionable guns (starts with 3, ends with magnum) very well. Once it has enough splashes I just buff it with the flapper wheel and throw another coat of white on it.
On the other hand my home welded support stand has taken a beating from fliers. LOL
Mike
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Mike
Why do you buff it? I just use the cheapest spray paint I can find, and give them a good spraying.
Fleener
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I have one on my range. It's a 4 inch diameter round target. I cut the center out of an old pallet and it hangs from chains at the top corner. I've only shot it with my .40 and .54 and a couple of pistols I own. That thing is a lot harder to hit than I thought it would be from 25 yards on back.
With a bull you still have the paper to help visualize where bullseye is, but that little 4" circle is mostly covered up with the sights and bore. I think it's a good target for improving your shooting.
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It's been many years ago but I was - for some reason or other - strolling in the vicinity of an old railroad track. The rails, instead of resting directly on the cross ties, were on thick steel around 6"x 8"x 1/2", or thereabout. Some were scattered off to the side in ditches & weeds. I collected a few and a friend welded bases on them so they could be set upright as targets. They were definitely fun to shoot, easy to knock over and held up just fine. Wish I still had them but time and memory make their (disposal?) impossible to recall.
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All my steel targets, over 100 now, just get a fresh coat after I shoot them. Some of them have been on the range for years without being removed with almost no rust.
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Bob
Are you that indecisive that you need that many targets? ;) Heck, I thought I was doing well with 25 or so. But if you count my buffalo heard, that puts it closer to 75 metal targets. Buffalos dont eat much.
Fleener
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Bob
Are you that indecisive that you need that many targets? ;) Heck, I thought I was doing well with 25 or so. But if you count my buffalo heard, that puts it closer to 75 metal targets. Buffalos dont eat much.
Fleener
I guess so. ;) Sounds like your setup is much like mine. I have lots of squirrels and other small varmint knockdown targets and lots of hangers from my three-gun Competition days. Lots of different ranges of all sizes. I shoot a lot of modern as well. All silent on the range now that archery deer and dove is open though. Only sound to be heard on the farm this time of year is the screaming rabbit on the predator call and the occasional silenced unmentionable.
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Mike
Why do you buff it? I just use the cheapest spray paint I can find, and give them a good spraying.
Fleener
A lot of my unmentionable bullets will make a decent splash and leave a thin scale of lead, copper, slag... whatever it is I just swipe it off with the flapper wheel and hit it with El Cheapo white paint.
I may have to just spray it and see how it holds up.
Mike