AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Brian Stuart on August 18, 2020, 06:35:49 PM
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I got the longrifle bug a few days ago and quickly found this forum, which seems like it has lots of knowledgeable folks with many years experience. I'm new to flintlocks but have been hunting with a percussion T/C New Englander in .54 cal for a few years. After looking at build photos, my factory rifle feels a bit soulless. I'd like to build a couple kit rifles, one in .54 and another in .40. These will be primarily for hunting with plinking/target work a fun secondary purpose.
The .40 is appealing because I can legally hunt deer with it, but it's small enough to use on turkeys, squirrels, and other small game. I'd hoped to use patched round ball for small game and conical bullets for deer, but after reading a thread here it seems the consensus is that PRB is the way to go; the major problem with conicals is they don't stabilize in PRB twist barrels and deflect/yaw when they hit game. I also couldn't find any Minie or conicals in .40, though I found them in every other caliber including .32! Has anyone tried shooting cast .40 pistol bullets in a standard 1-in-48 twist barrel? The extra projectile weight would give me more confidence in taking down larger bucks, but maybe ball is fine and I should stop worrying about it?
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Brain
Welcome to one of the best places on the web. Lots of good folks that are very smart hang out here, and a few old curmudgeons help keep it interesting.
I am going to approach your questions from a different angle. If you are going to have both a .54 and a .40 why hunt deer with the .40? I have quite a few .54's and a couple of .40 cal. In Iowa you can not hunt deer with a .40 cal as it is deemed to small.
Use the .54 for bigger animals and the .40 for smaller ones.
Conicals work great for killing. Some love round balls, and that is what they prefer, but dont discount a conical for its killing capability.
Fleener
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snapper,
Thanks for the welcome! As for why I'd like a .40 if I already have a .54, I'm hoping that the .40 will be a light "walkabout" rifle that's more versatile than larger calibers. I also get the sense that the .40 is considered an inherently accurate caliber, but mostly I like the idea of a light, handy rifle that can take a wide variety of game depending on how it's loaded. Hence my interest in conicals for the .40.
The .54 with PRB works great on our deer, and I'm taking the New Englander on my first Elk hunt this year...I have some Hornady Great Plains conicals for that purpose but have never used them before. The T/C is a 1-in-48 twist so it should stabilize the conicals better.
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First of all Brian welcome to the best site for long rifles.
I shoot both .40 and .54 in flintlock. As to kits I would highly recommend eith a Kibler or Chambers. I shoot my .40 with patched round ball on deer sized game and smaller. Do not discount the .40 with a patched ball and something like 60 grains of 3f. It will drop them dead if you do your part. My .54 is for deer size and above.
A good choice would be a SMR in .40 and maybe something like a Colonial era rifle in .54, can't go wrong here.
Again welcome my new friend,
"Muskrat" Mike
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Welcome. A Kibler SMR in .40 would be light and lovely as would some other available kits. The .40 is deer-legal here but I've always used either a .45 or .50 (or bigger). I shoot prb exclusively, never had any use for conicals. The weight of a .40 rifle will vary a lot depending on style and other factors. My .40 tips the scale at well over 8 lbs. But the barrel is a swamped "B" wgt which gives the rifle wonderful balance. No caliber is "inherently" accurate; it just depends on the rifle. But the .40 is indeed accurate, as is the .32, .36, .45, .50, .54, .58 and .62.
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Welcome. A Kibler SMR in .40 would be light and lovely as would some other available kits. The .40 is deer-legal here but I've always used either a .45 or .50 (or bigger). I shoot prb exclusively, never had any use for conicals. The weight of a .40 rifle will vary a lot depending on style and other factors. My .40 tips the scale at well over 8 lbs. But the barrel is a swamped "B" wgt which gives the rifle wonderful balance. No caliber is "inherently" accurate; it just depends on the rifle. But the .40 is indeed accurate, as is the .32, .36, .45, .50, .54, .58 and .62.
I agree Hanshi. I will say I find the .40 incredibly flat shooting so super for differing ranges required for varmint. Super caliber. We're legal to hunt deer in TN .36 and up with muzzleloaders. Never considered it as I has many better options, including the .45 and .58 which are my favs for such.
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The Kibler kits have a great reputation and I may go with one for the .54, but I don't care for the style of the SMR as much. I'd like a shorter (38-42") barrel and a flatter buttplate. I could probably do something about the latter, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to swap in a shorter barrel if the stock's already inlet for a longer one.
This Bucks County Schimmel by Allen Martin (https://www.blackpowdermag.com/allen-martin-builds-a-schimmel/) has incredible lines and is more to my taste.
(https://i.ibb.co/9tbWq27/schimmel4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NS9KLpM)
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I’m killing squirrels with my BB gun in the back yard. I’m guessing anything over a .32 with 18 grains of powder is overkill on squirrels but that’s ok. I consider the .45 my minimum for deer. In a .40 I’d limit myself to perfect broadside or head on shots to 75 yards. Some seasons that opportunity arises. Some times not. A deer running broadside at 40 yards? Nope under .50 for me. Quartering away? Not for me with a .36 or .40.
The challenge of designing a historically accurate small caliber rifle that is light and has a flat buttplate is considerable. In general flattish buttplates are found on earlier rifles. So are thick barrels and there is the rub. A skinny rifle in the early styles looks off to some of us. Something heartening back to 1800-1810 or so would be where I’d start to fit your bill.
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The challenge of designing a historically accurate small caliber rifle that is light and has a flat buttplate is considerable. In general flattish buttplates are found on earlier rifles. So are thick barrels and there is the rub. A skinny rifle in the early styles looks off to some of us. Something heartening back to 1800-1810 or so would be where I’d start to fit your bill.
Is there any reason, historically speaking, I couldn't do a Lancaster rifle in .40? I like the Isaac Haines look.
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Brian,
Here is a .40 Lancaster rifle I built to be my squirrel gun with also the potential for use on deer. No reason you couldn't build a Lancaster in .40 cal. The target is eight shots at 50 yards from a bench.
(https://i.ibb.co/5W5hspX/PB300451.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RpCTQrG)
(https://i.ibb.co/Y0Jpjxt/PB300452.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mNd6z3H)
(https://i.ibb.co/3zqzK9y/PB300459.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dgqgZw0)
(https://i.ibb.co/mHgnsGc/PB300417.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nDtX2bL)
(https://i.ibb.co/tqG76p6/PB300421.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1rgDNGN)
(https://i.ibb.co/xstTfDR/PB300433.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sPdY62M)
(https://i.ibb.co/fS8nwHP/PB300439.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z587vZ0)
(https://i.ibb.co/FgpWjbN/PB300472.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wMtLxN3)
Curtis
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Most .40 barrels I see and have used are 1/48 twist so will stabilize a conical. I have a green mountain 1/48 that I shoot conicals out of sometimes. I use a .410 Lee pistol bullet mold. they come out at 210 grains off the top of my head and load pretty easy after the first couple inches. I Need to cone my .40 barrel this week come to think of it. I normally use bigger stuff for deer a 58 and a 62...but...a 210 grain bullet pushed by 60 grains of 3f is a definite deer killin' load IMO. You build your .40 I'll send you some to try.
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Brian,
Here is a .40 Lancaster rifle I built to be my squirrel gun with also the potential for use on deer. No reason you couldn't build a Lancaster in .40 cal. The target is eight shots at 50 yards from a bench.
Curtis
Beautiful rifle, Curtis. Did you find it fulfilled its role well?
Most .40 barrels I see and have used are 1/48 twist so will stabilize a conical. I have a green mountain 1/48 that I shoot conicals out of sometimes. I use a .410 Lee pistol bullet mold. they come out at 210 grains off the top of my head and load pretty easy after the first couple inches. I Need to cone my .40 barrel this week come to think of it. I normally use bigger stuff for deer a 58 and a 62...but...a 210 grain bullet pushed by 60 grains of 3f is a definite deer killin' load IMO. You build your .40 I'll send you some to try.
That's pretty much what I was thinking. Even a 155 grain bullet is almost 60% heavier than a .40 round ball. Did you experiment with different weights, or use a mold you already had?
I'll take you up on that offer, but I'm probably not going to build the rifle until the winter at the earliest.
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I already had the mold. It dawned on me one day to try it and I've been pleased with the way they shoot. I've only shot it on paper at maybe 70 yards is the furthest and the group great...no keyholing. I mainly like em' for longer shots gong ringin'. They make a gong sing compared to a 97 grain prb. I'll go ahead and send you some now if you like...may be good motivation to get started building:>)
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Brian,
Here is a .40 Lancaster rifle I built to be my squirrel gun with also the potential for use on deer. No reason you couldn't build a Lancaster in .40 cal. The target is eight shots at 50 yards from a bench.
(https://i.ibb.co/5W5hspX/PB300451.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RpCTQrG)
(https://i.ibb.co/Y0Jpjxt/PB300452.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mNd6z3H)
(https://i.ibb.co/3zqzK9y/PB300459.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dgqgZw0)
(https://i.ibb.co/mHgnsGc/PB300417.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nDtX2bL)
(https://i.ibb.co/tqG76p6/PB300421.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1rgDNGN)
(https://i.ibb.co/xstTfDR/PB300433.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sPdY62M)
(https://i.ibb.co/fS8nwHP/PB300439.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z587vZ0)
(https://i.ibb.co/FgpWjbN/PB300472.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wMtLxN3)
CurtisCurt Thats a bueatiful rifle and some fine shooting.
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Don't think a 1-48 won't stabilize a round ball. It will require sound load development to find what it likes and will be a little more bothersome than a round ball twist but the results are worth it. When I started shooting ML rifles I had a 1-48 and kept it for several years. I started shooting matches with that rifle and did quite well.
The deer and hogs I shot didn't mine the twist rate either.
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Beautiful rifle, Curtis. Did you find it fulfilled its role well?
So far it has been just the ticket for squirrels and varmints, haven't had a shot at a deer with it. Like some others mentioned, for a deer I would limit shots to 60 yards or so broadside with PRB. A conical would do the job further out.
Curtis
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Beautiful rifle, Curtis. Did you find it fulfilled its role well?
So far it has been just the ticket for squirrels and varmints, haven't had a shot at a deer with it. Like some others mentioned, for a deer I would limit shots to 60 yards or so broadside with PRB. A conical would do the job further out.
Curtis Thats a bueatiful rifle and some fine shooting.
Thanks Little Joe! Here is a link to the project if you are interested: https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=46527.0 (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=46527.0)
Curtis
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Beautiful rifle, Curtis. Did you find it fulfilled its role well?
So far it has been just the ticket for squirrels and varmints, haven't had a shot at a deer with it. Like some others mentioned, for a deer I would limit shots to 60 yards or so broadside with PRB. A conical would do the job further out.
Curtis what load and powder did you use to shoot that group? that is a beautiful rifle BTW,,,,,,,,,,,,
Curtis Thats a bueatiful rifle and some fine shooting.
Thanks Little Joe! Here is a link to the project if you are interested: https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=46527.0 (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=46527.0)
Curtis
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Thank you Wolf! Here is a link to a posting that gives all the details of that range outing: https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=46805.msg460630#msg460630 (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=46805.msg460630#msg460630)
50 grains of Goex 3f, .015 patch and a .395 ball
Curtis
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A .40 in 1 in 48” twist is the combination that many of the old target shooters preferred. More than one well known barrel maker believed that certain calibers preferred certain rates of twist.
As for deer hunting with a .40 caliber, that would depend on the terrain, the size of the deer, and how good of a shot you are. I live in Northern California, where the brush is tight, shots are generally short, and the deer are generally small. So, a forty caliber would be fine, as long as you don’t shootem’ in the wrong end.
Hungry Horse
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1-48" twists in .40 and even larger calibers was and still is common. Just as long as the rifling is cut deep enough, say just for example .010" (+ or -) a rifle with that 1-48" twist will be accurate with light or heavy loads.
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I haven't found all that much information in my searches, so I think I'll have to do my own research. If I can find someone local to cast bullets for me that'd be ideal. I should probably get a chronograph....
We have several deer species here, but the most common are Colombian Black-Tail and Mule. I'd feel comfortable hunting blacktails with a .40 but probably not mulies, as I have a better caliber for larger animals.
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Taylor shot this target with a .66 caliber short barreled caplock built in 1852 or 3 & having a 48" twist.
(https://i.ibb.co/HYHb218/DSC-0055.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rMwztTr)
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Brian, I am partial to the Isacc Haines pattern stock that's currently included in Kits from Track of the Wolf, Chambers and Wayne Dunlap. If your a right hander an Isacc Haines with the B weight .40 caliber barrel is available from all of these vendors. If your a Lefthander then Track of the Wolf is about the only one who offers this in a B weight and .40 caliber.
I built this rifle using a stock from Track of the Wolf.
It was built to be my turkey rifle as it's legal in Georgia to hunt them with a ML rifle. So far it has fulfilled it's role with much success.
(https://i.ibb.co/nC4DXKK/SS850183.jpg)
And another.
(https://i.ibb.co/DDrh277/SS850061.jpg)
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Brian, I am partial to the Isacc Haines pattern stock that's currently included in Kits from Track of the Wolf, Chambers and Wayne Dunlap. If your a right hander an Isacc Haines with the B weight .40 caliber barrel is available from all of these vendors. If your a Lefthander then Track of the Wolf is about the only one who offers this in a B weight and .40 caliber.
I built this rifle using a stock from Track of the Wolf.
It was built to be my turkey rifle as it's legal in Georgia to hunt them with a ML rifle. So far it has fulfilled it's role with much success.
I've been looking at Track's Issac Haines kit. How long is your rifle, and how much does it weigh? I'd like my rifle to be no more than 7.5lb, just wondering if a 38" B weight barrel in .40 is going to put me over. According to their website the barrel alone is 4.5lb. Never built a flintlock before so I'm totally unaware of what to expect in terms of weight, balance, and handling.
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Then get the A profile 40 cal in 38 inches. I had one years ago and a it made very handy light weight rifle. I don't remember exact weight but it was under 7 lbs. It was built with a nice piece of cherry.
Dennis
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I'm sure I've mentioned this before , but my .40 X 38" X "B" wgt is a good 8 lbs or more.
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I'm sure I've mentioned this before , but my .40 X 38" X "B" wgt is a good 8 lbs or more.
You're right, I see you posted the weight earlier in this thread. Of course the benefit of a heavier barrel is offhand steadiness, and you said you like how it balances.
Then get the A profile 40 cal in 38 inches. I had one years ago and a it made very handy light weight rifle. I don't remember exact weight but it was under 7 lbs. It was built with a nice piece of cherry.
Dennis
The A profile is definitely lighter at 3.1lbs in .40. My concern is finding a kit with that barrel profile, as I've never built a rifle before I don't want to get a stock blank for my first project. Any way to build from a kit and still get a pre-inlet stock for A-weight barrel?
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Brian: The Kibler SMR kit comes with a Rice "A" weight golden Age barrel it is 46-inches long, swamped with a 1/48-inch twist. It weighs 7 lb. 2 1/4 oz (with full patch box and ramrod installed). Love the heck out of mine and today at the range I shot from 25 yards to 90 yards with 40 grains of Goex 3F no hold over required,
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Brian: The Kibler SMR kit comes with a Rice "A" weight golden Age barrel it is 46-inches long, swamped with a 1/48-inch twist. It weighs 7 lb. 2 1/4 oz (with full patch box and ramrod installed). Love the heck out of mine and today at the range I shot from 25 yards to 90 yards with 40 grains of Goex 3F no hold over required,
I'd have already purchased the Kibler SMR if it could be had in a shorter barrel, like a 42". I understand they're called Longrifles for a reason, but I'm coming from the modern cartridge world and a 38" barrel is longer than most rifles I own. A 5-foot rifle isn't what comes to mind when I think of "handy". No doubt I'd become accustomed to a rifle of such length, it just seemed prudent to start with a shorter and lighter option.
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Brian, My .40 is 53 1/2" long. That's with a 38" barrel. I find the length very handy in the woods. Unlike a straight barrel which can be very end heavy, I find the IH rifles with the swamped barrel to be so well balanced I never think about it when shooting.
My scales are not accurate enough to get a good weight but I'm sure it weighs between 7 and 8 pounds. It's not a light weight.
For a first build I wouldn't recommend any of the kit rifles I listed. There is a higher level of difficulty than with kits like the Great Plains and other factory kits. The Kibler kit is the only one I recommend for a first timer.
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My .40 has a 38” straight green mountain barrel. The rifle weighs 7.5 lbs on my bathroom scale and balances at the entry thimble. It handles and shoots very well.
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Brian, My .40 is 53 1/2" long. That's with a 38" barrel. I find the length very handy in the woods. Unlike a straight barrel which can be very end heavy, I find the IH rifles with the swamped barrel to be so well balanced I never think about it when shooting.
My scales are not accurate enough to get a good weight but I'm sure it weighs between 7 and 8 pounds. It's not a light weight.
It sounds like a B-weight barrel in .40 would be OK. I weighed some of my rifles and shotguns, and I think anything under 8lbs is fine for my purposes. I have a CZ 452 in .22lr that comes in at 6.3lbs loaded, and that's a joy to carry all day. As you note, balance is important, and the weight of a longrifle is distributed over a much larger area than my little .22, which is a challenge to hold steady for offhand shots.
My .40 has a 38” straight green mountain barrel. The rifle weighs 7.5 lbs on my bathroom scale and balances at the entry thimble. It handles and shoots very well.
How wide is the barrel? Probably a 13/16" at that weight? I'm impressed at how light some of these straight barrel rifles are, like this one Steve built (https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=60581.0).
For a first build I wouldn't recommend any of the kit rifles I listed. There is a higher level of difficulty than with kits like the Great Plains and other factory kits. The Kibler kit is the only one I recommend for a first timer.
Most likely I'll pick up one of Track's Isaac Haines kits, but Jim Kibler mentioned in his recent video they're going to produce a Northwest Trade Gun kit, and I may start there for my first build.
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Yep 13/16” barrel - it’s really enjoyable to shoot. I use 27 grains (.357 casing for a measure) at 30 yards and under. Use 40 grains at 40-50 yards. I have not shot much past 50 yards with it. Very little recoil...
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Brian, If you get the IH kit then go to Chambers website and get a couple of videos showing how to build a rifle from a kit. Books are nice but the video will help you a lot more.