AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Dan'l 1946 on August 18, 2009, 09:35:22 AM
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I was surfing the Gunbroker site and came across this item, #137085175. It's billed as a real S. Hawken, but some how I doubt it. Maybe a reuse of a Hawken barrel or it is carrying a bogus barrel stamp? The stamp is on the bottom flat apparently.
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That gun has been on there for quite a while and it can't get a bid. I have never seen a Hawken stamp like that. It appears to be a later addition. If it was a real Hawken it would be a steal at that price....Ed
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I think the key word here is "Hawkens". It means "fake Hawken".
Dan
P.S.
My mistake. Its not stamped "Hawkens". Who ever stamped it did spell it right. Possible they over stamped the original makers name.
Should have looked at all the photos but did not consider it necessary.
TG looks similar to something DGW used to sell in the 60s, maybe still does.
Fortunately this is pretty obvious...
Dan
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Yep. You'd think an antique dealer would be a bit more responsible about this stuff. That S. Hawken stamp looks wrong as can be. But nothing about that rifle says Hawken to me.
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I know nothing, but would not invest $100 in it, if I had $100. It screams fake to me too.
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Just about everything is wrong on that "Hawken".
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This gun was made by Sam Hawken's distant relative, Seymour Hawken, who lived somewhere back East. Occasionally one of his rifles will surface on Internet auction sites. No two look alike, and none have any resemblance to St. Louis guns.
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Somewhere way back East--like China. Makes you wonder how a place stays in business with errors like this.
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What about the William Hawken original that is also up for auction by a different seller. Use hawken as a search word and the W. Hawken is just a couple of lines below the S. Hawken.
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That one has been on there for a while. I think it is for real. It would be nice to have more photographs, though. Kind of looks like a squirrel rifle. Interesting treatment in the forearm--entry pipe area. What do you think of it TOF?
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What do you think of it TOF?
I am not a great fan of Hawkens, so I really have no opinion. There is really nothing special about them that makes them any better or worse than other plains rifle makers, other than they have been glorified beyond their stature in movies and print. They're just another gun.
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This gun was made by Sam Hawken's distant relative, Seymour Hawken, who lived somewhere back East. Occasionally one of his rifles will surface on Internet auction sites. No two look alike, and none have any resemblance to St. Louis guns.
Sometimes I wonder if ol Seymour hasn't made more Hawken rifles that Christian, Jake, Sam, William, DT and the others all put together. He sure is a prolific son of a gun. ;)
Sean
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This gun was made by Sam Hawken's distant relative, Seymour Hawken, who lived somewhere back East. Occasionally one of his rifles will surface on Internet auction sites. No two look alike, and none have any resemblance to St. Louis guns.
Sometimes I wonder if ol Seymour hasn't made more Hawken rifles that Christian, Jake, Sam, William, DT and the others all put together. He sure is a prolific son of a gun. ;)
Sean
Yep,out of the 2000+ guns that Sam and Jake are rumored to have turned out, all 9784 still exist!
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What about the William Hawken original that is also up for auction by a different seller. Use hawken as a search word and the W. Hawken is just a couple of lines below the S. Hawken.
TOF--this one has been bothering me for a while. I went back and looked it over. I'm not so sure about it anymore. The quality seems low, the rifling looks to be filed in at the muzzle and the rest of the bore may be smooth. There is something off about that signature on the barrel, too. It doesn't follow the flat, and it looks to have been altered in at least one place. Or maybe I'm just getting old and picky...Dan
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As I said, I am no Hawken afficiondo. Without looking it up, wasn't W. Hawken making guns in Colorado? We tend to forget that most Hawken rifles went west during the Oregon Trail days, not the Fur Trade days. Later time period, lesser quality guns? Sod busters were buying them, not mountain men.
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As I said, I am no Hawken afficiondo. Without looking it up, wasn't W. Hawken making guns in Colorado? We tend to forget that most Hawken rifles went west during the Oregon Trail days, not the Fur Trade days. Later time period, lesser quality guns? Sod busters were buying them, not mountain men.
Tof,
Not true. There are records of J&S Hawkens being purchased by AFC Upper Missouri Outfit personnel as early as 1828 and a few Hawkens were included in trade goods going to rendezvous as early as 1834. They did not just go to upper level traders either. Some of them were bought by mixed bloods and trappers. They weren't likely a super common gun compared to PA-made trade rifles, but they also were a fair bit more expensive than those guns.
Goex,
On that gun... Don't lose sleep over it. Its been there for a while and will likely be there for much longer. Take a look at Baird's and Hanson's books on Hawkens. If you are really interested in Western fur trade guns, consider investing some $$ in Jim Gordon's books.
Sean
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William Hawken, Son of Sam (remember him?) operated the St.Louis shop from 1855 till 1860.
http://home.att.net/~mman/JSHawken.htm (http://home.att.net/~mman/JSHawken.htm)
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Not true. There are records of J&S Hawkens being purchased by AFC Upper Missouri Outfit personnel as early as 1828 and a few Hawkens were included in trade goods going to rendezvous as early as 1834.
"The Hawken brothers were able to produce only a hundred or so guns of all types per year and even in 1849, the peak year of production for the Hawken brothers, production was only about 200 rifles. The Plains Rifle saw heavy use by emigrants bound for California and Oregon, 49'ers during the gold rush, Army scouts, and buffalo hunters."
Read the above statement carefully. I said "most" Hawkens went west with sodbusters. You give evidence of a minimal number of guns during the Fur Trade, which "officially" ended in 1834. Also note that of the 100 or so guns built each year, not all production went toward the Plains-style Hawken. They also built guns for local sales that didn't go West. Also, William Hawken lived until 1900 and built guns in
Denver, CO, 1860-64, after selling out to Gemmer. All tolled, there were 14 members of the Hawken family involved in the gun business over the years.
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Not true. There are records of J&S Hawkens being purchased by AFC Upper Missouri Outfit personnel as early as 1828 and a few Hawkens were included in trade goods going to rendezvous as early as 1834.
"The Hawken brothers were able to produce only a hundred or so guns of all types per year and even in 1849, the peak year of production for the Hawken brothers, production was only about 200 rifles. The Plains Rifle saw heavy use by emigrants bound for California and Oregon, 49'ers during the gold rush, Army scouts, and buffalo hunters."
Read the above statement carefully. I said "most" Hawkens went west with sodbusters. You give evidence of a minimal number of guns during the Fur Trade, which "officially" ended in 1834. Also note that of the 100 or so guns built each year, not all production went toward the Plains-style Hawken. They also built guns for local sales that didn't go West. Also, William Hawken lived until 1900 and built guns in
Denver, CO, 1860-64, after selling out to Gemmer. All tolled, there were 14 members of the Hawken family involved in the gun business over the years.
TOF,
I did in fact carefully read your post and this is the portion I was replying to:
Sod busters were buying them, not mountain men.
This is a bit off topic, however since you admit you are 'not Hawken fan' I may be of some service to you. There have been quite a few things published in the last 20 years on this topic that go beyond Charles Hanson's early statements about no Hawkens going to Rendezvous. If you would like I will be happy to direct you to some more recent information on the topic of Hawkens in the fur trade West. Your comment about 'most Hawken rifles' can respectfully be applied to almost any gunmaker who was in business during the period including Leman, Henry, Deringer, Tryon etc. Your comment about the beaver trade ending in 1834 in the West is also not exactly correct. The rendezvous era continued for several years past that date and the beaver trade was far from over at that point, in fact many arguments have been made that the idea of the 'end' of the beaver trade is a modern notion. I am also well aware of the Hawken, Hachen, Hagy, Haga lineage in PA, MD, OH, MO, and CO and am familiar with much of their work including that of William and the aformentioned 'Seymour'. If you have specific questions on those issues I will be happy to help you off list.
Sean
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This looks like one of the "squirrel" rifles that the Hawkens made. But look at the photograph of the muzzle area. That rifling just looks wrong no matter who made the rifle. Kind of like the bogus rifling Teff put in some guns back in the '50s to up their prices.
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Sean,
Why don't you just start another thread about the history of the Hawkens and their rifles. I am willing to bet there are several people on the ALR who know all about the subject and even more who don't know a thing about the Hawken rifles, but would like to know.
Randy Hedden
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Tof & Randy,
Sometimes I'm long on sarcasm and short on personal skills. No offense intended.
Sean
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There's always room for another Hawken thread. Wouldn't it be nice if Don Stith dropped by...
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it is my understanding that one of the hawken brothers (sam or jake, which ever lived the longest) built guns in denver up into the 60's or 70's. i believe the "official" death of the western fur trade was officially considered 1841, as that was the last rendezvous. beaver prices had dropped significantly by that time. that is certainly not to say there was never another beaver trapped after that time. mark
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Rock Island auction has a S. Hawken.Will be auctioned in their Sept. 11 12 &13 auction. rockislandauction.com lot 1237.
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I have studied many Hawkens personally and owned one, and this Gunbroker thing is sure not a Sam, Jake, Wm. Watts or Gibbons made Hawken. They could not even stamp it right on the bbl.
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From my immense and infallible database, I see this piece as a product of the famous Lower East Side (NYC) Hasidic gunsmith Shemul Chaim Hawken. He worked across Houston St. from the old pickle store. He armed the whole 5-Points Gang and he is noted for inscribing cryptic Kabalistic symbolism on his patchboxes. Great Pinyone, can you cross reference, please? In all seriousness, this gun ain't righteous.
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From my immense and infallible database, I see this piece as a product of the famous Lower East Side (NYC) Hasidic gunsmith Shemul Chaim Hawken. He worked across Houston St. from the old pickle store. He armed the whole 5-Points Gang and he is noted for inscribing cryptic Kabalistic symbolism on his patchboxes. Great Pinyone, can you cross reference, please? In all seriousness, this gun ain't righteous.
You're not right between the ears.
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Hawken, Rock Island had,went for a hair over Thirty Seven Thousand.I guess everybody ain't hurtin in this economy.
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That thing is no Hawken. Period!
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Always nice to see one in person. I passed up trading for one once that I had in my hands. I was worried about the 34 caliber and only one barrel pin. The lock was a bit smaller than normal. Of course, all these things could be explained by the smaller caliber. Later, I got the old and new owner together and was allowed to copy the stock. When I took off the butt plate, one screw hole had been rotted by perhaps leaking water. It was not drilled and dowelled, it was replaced by a diamond shaped piece of wood inletted into the stock..very well inletting into the stock.. I was starting to change my mind. The inset holder for the barrel was cut out of one piece and filed to shape as a sort of a cage structure. That changed my mind completely. I never saw another original until someone put their collection of 15 guns on display at the Beinfeld Winter Vegas Show years ago. Neat guns.