AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Robby on September 05, 2020, 09:33:32 PM
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I made this gun to hunt with last year and had to take a pass on it because I could not get it to group in time for the season. Over the last year I have tried to work with it off and on, including a muzzle treatment, as described by Daryl, twice, all manner of patch ply, ball diameter, and powder load, All mortices have been enlarged twice, barrel hoops are slotted with plenty of room, last month I even tried heating the whole barrel in hopes that it might need some stress relief. I like to solve problems, but have to admit, I don't know what else to do. Maybe get in touch with barrel manufacturer, who will remain anonymous, for now. Maybe I am missing something and somebody can help me out. Still plenty of time before the season starts here.
Yesterday after a frustrating session I finally hit the bulls eye, twice, not in a row but golly!!!! I left off there, with hopes. Well, today I went out and this is the target, and fairly reflective of what I have been going through for the last year with its consistent inconsistency.
(https://i.ibb.co/R7bdKsJ/0-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d7MxvVH)
This is off the bench, with good, rock, solid hold, excellent shooting light, at fifty yards. .50 caliber, 85gr's 3F, .495 cast pure lead ball, .023, compressed in calipers, pillow ticking.
So after many years, this rifle was built for me and I have put a lot of time into it. Fortunately it did not got to someone else and become their nightmare.
(https://i.ibb.co/RbnjK01/IMG-0013.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wgHcqWT)
post pictures (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/jL3C5sC/IMG-0015-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4j4bf3b)
(https://i.ibb.co/RPQQ5JR/IMG-0019-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0ZYYwzH)
(https://i.ibb.co/51v91SG/IMG-0017-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QJncJTp)
(https://i.ibb.co/2ZVZ10m/IMG-0020-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bbwbMjq)
Not an exact copy, it is a fairly petite and shooter friendly rifle.
Robby
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Unless you are hunting for Cape Buffalo drop the powder charge. If your using 3F (which I use and love) I only use 70 grains of 3F in my .54 for elk and bear, and that will go through an elk. Might not be the solution but I would drop it down to 50 grains then work up 5 grains at a time. If you have already done that when the gun was shiny new go back and try it again. Let us know if that helped. By the way what are you using for lube? If it is a hunting gun I would be using either TOTW mink oil/grease or 100% pure Neatsfoot oil.
Best wishes and goo luck.
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No offense intended, but has anyone else shot it for groups? Are you shooting other flinters on the same day and getting better groups? I try to compare to a known quantity on the same day, as I know that I can sure have a bad day at the range.
If it is indeed the barrel, perhaps re-barrel the rifle? Modern barrel makers can replicate the outside dimensions well enough to replace an existing barrel.
Another option could be having Mr Hoyt look at the barrel and see if he can find an anomaly. If he does, he may be able to bore and re-rifle it.
Your load looks like it should work in a good barrel, as in it is not too loose. A suggestion would be read your patches and see what they are telling you. Perhaps in that light-appearing rifle, try backing off to 70 grains of 2f and see what happens? I have seen in laddering up loads in testing, you hit a sweet spot for groups, then stiffer loads seem to open things up progressively. 85 grains of 3f in my experience equates to maybe 95 grains of 2f. That just may be a might stout for accuracy. Just a thought. It almost seems like with heavy loads in skinny barrels you can get some sort of whipping vibration that throws shots.
That is a gorgeous rifle, and you did a fantastic job, so I can feel your pain and not wanting to let it go.
God Bless, Marc
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It is an absolutely beautiful rifle, Robby, and worth keeping, IMHO, just for that reason. I can only guess at solutions in your case. But here goes: maybe swabbing the bore with 0000 steel wool, Scotch Brite pads or something similar; playing with powder charge, 1F to 3F size; Or pulling the barrel and checking the stock for problems. Good luck.
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Muskrat, I've been up and down the ladder a couple times, it's an equal opportunity scatter gun. I never try to magnumize any gun, this is about as good as it gets, actually still comfortable to shoot.
Marcruder, No offense taken. The day before I had a .58 caliber Bucks County rifle, closest thing I had to this configuration, To see if I have lost what little shooting ability I may have had. One big ragged hole at fifty yards using the same printed target face. This gun(?), about what you see on the target presented, just more of it. If I send it to Bobby, it will be to ream it out and put a .45 liner in it. I got to try this site first, there are a lot of very experienced makers and shooters here, the barrel maker next, and depending on what happens with him, it might become a .45.
Hanshi, Thank you. I did try all those things, once with the Scotch-Brite, once with 0000 steel wool. I did try 2F with the same results up and down the ladder. Like I said, I went through the stock three times looking for anything that might bind or pull and enlarged the mortices, shaved anything that even hinted at binding.
Robby
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Robby, this might be a silly question.....how many rounds do you have through the barrel total ? I have had barrels that would not shoot center until I had many, many rounds through them....and then, inexplicably, the darn thing started to group....???? Here is an old thread when I asked the question if anyone else had heard of "breaking in" a barrel...
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=58327.msg583384#msg583384
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Robby,
Are all your targets printing the same? Your up and down looks good but your left and right is way off and not progressive left to right either. One shot far right then way left then right again. I suspect possibly your front sight is too thick or your rear sight notch is too narrow. You should be able to see and equal amount of daylight to each side of your front sight in the rear sight picture. If the front sight is too wide for your rear notch and you are favoring one side or the other then that would explain your wide groups.
AsMs
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I'll add my .02 to this discussion. I had a similar problem with a rifle, and did many of the things you have tried. Then one day I accidentally put a cleaning patch down on top of the powder charge. I didn't have a worm with me so I said "What the heck, I just load the patched ball and shoot it out". Well that shot went right where I was aiming, so I tried it again and low and behold I had two shots touching. Did it two more times and wound up with a a 1" group at 50 yards. For some reason this gun likes to have a dry patch over the powder before a patched ball is seated. Give it a try, what have you got to lose?
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Dave, I can't really say how many rounds I have shot all together, like I said, I have been fighting with this for over a year whenever I get the time, maybe 150(?). I have used many of these barrels and have never had a problem. I don't know how I missed your ref. posting, I come here every day, part of my morning ritual, Hah!
AsMs, The sights are pretty standard configuration for what I do. Yes, on this target the elevation does look somewhat consistent, that is not always the case. When I first started my sight in over a year ago, my first round would always be near the bull, second round way to the right and it would shotgun after that. Shocked the heck out of me today when the first shot was way to the right from the get go.
Well Fyrstyk, at this point, why not!
Robby
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Who made the barrel, and what is the twist rate. I have a SMR with a Montana straight 15/16” .50 Cal. 1 in 72” twist Barrel that drove me nuts. I kept patching tighter, and tighter, and the thicker the patch the more torn up they got. I finally left the charge at about 95 grains of 3F, and backed down to a fifteen thousandths patch, and it straightened right out. I know the Canadian will scream thats impossible, but just this once he’s wrong. It shoots fine, and no I have no idea why. It will also shoot nearly as well with a similar charge of 2F, but not with a thick tight patch. By the way all patches were lubed with venison tallow.
Hungry Horse
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How do your patches look? If we’re gonna analyze, we need all the evidence.
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If shots string up and down, more powder . If shots string east and west less powder. Change to 2F. What do your patches look like? Do you wipe between shots? Steve
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When a rifle is shooting poorly I check every patch after every shot. Some ranges that is not possible. But I usually find flyers have to do with blown patches.
I had to pull a ball today (dry balled it) and found my patches are weak at the lands from loading. This is a heavy bench rifle. One thing to try is loading and pulling a ball if you have some blown patches. Time for a Daryl crown polishing.
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My way Drop charge to 60 or 65 grs powder,remove rr, and rest your rifle 4 inchs behind muzzle and shoot for group. Use a 50 yd ML target to get a feeling of how you are doing compared to the big boys.
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So, you've got a good crown, the barrel has been smoothed, you've gone up and down the powder charge range with both 3F and 2F.
I suspect you are a good shooter with experience.
Barrel bedding at the breech is tight, ie: breech end bedded against the wood properly or glass bedded?
I've never slotted forend pin holes & I don't think Taylor does or has either. I could be wrong about that,
but my barrel tenon pin holes appear round in my Beck rifle. The slot in the forend of my English gun, also by Taylor, does not have much
slop in the barrel's tenon slot.
Patch condition is the only thing I can think of, as well, apart from barrel bedding, but I have not found that particularly important if having good wood/metal fit.
I failed to see where you mentioned lube, Sonny. I am at a loss, perhaps just a bad barrel.
How does it clean up?
It is tighter at the breech (bore and/or grooves) than at the muzzle. If so, that is backwards.
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I always check my patches. At this level of powder they are a bit frayed around the edges so there is some blow by but it is consistent, they all look exactly the same and as I would expect them to look, no tearing. Like i said, this was (is) to me my hunting rifle so when I started my initial sight in I was using only the Track's mink oil for lube and the patches looked the same with the exception that I was not getting as much fraying around the edges as I moved up the volume ladder. I started using a 'Moose Milk' recipe after a few sessions when i realized this may take a while. Yes, the crown appears to be very good as I have been using your technique for years on every barrel I use. I can feel no tight or loose spots along the length of the bore when loading. It cleans up fine, no detection of any roughness throughout.
I'm going for another session today and will be trying 2F and a slightly thinner patch, going from the bottom of the ladder once again. If things don't go my way I'll even try the over the powder patch. At this point I'm pretty much game for about anything. Maybe it is my optimistic nature but I keep think there is a simple answer to this.
Robby
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Reads like you are chasing the wind !! give the rifle to someone else to sight in,tell them nothing about what you have tried.See what they come up with,reads like the common factor is the shooter ????
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Had a .54 rifle with a Douglas Barrel that was giving me fits. It would start putting balls together and then it would start spraying them. I was trying to sight it it at the Western Nationals. I had just finished it the day before the shoot started. I spent all day one day trying to get the sucker to shoot. Now my problem wasn't that it wouldn't group. It was that the groups were moving around radically. Any way I did manage to shoot a 48 2x at 100 yards with it in the Flintlock Buffalo match. But that was by holding on the top right corner of the target, I found were to hold from the previous 100 yard target that had a couple outs in the lower left corner of the target.
This was tottaly different than the day before.
I was totally disgusted. When I cleaned the rifle at the house I found my problem, My rear sight was a bit on the loose side. what seemed to happen was that when the barrel would heat up the sight would move around. That was the last time I let some one install sights on a mill for me. I'm perfectly capable of botching sight installation with hand tools.
Now I'm not saying that 's your problem but might be worth checking your sights.
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Have you tried weighing the balls?
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I used to weigh every ball I ran through my gun. Then an old timer told me I was wasting my time. He scooped up a bunch of my rejects, and took me to the range, and shot me into the dirt. I never weighed another ball, if it doesn’t have a big crater in one side of it it goes in the bag.
Hungry Horse
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HH: I agree. Also, I rarely orient the ball so the sprue is straight up. However the ball goes down onto the patch, that's the way it gets loaded. I cannot tell the difference in my shooting.
One more thing: I don't notice a big difference in my shooting if I mix up my patches. I was shooting our trail one sunny day and ran out of patches. I retraced my steps going back to the start of the trail, and along the way, picked up and shot patches I found laying on the ground...dropped by other shooters. I never missed a target using found patches, and they were quite a collection. I concede that trail shooting at steel and novelty targets is not bullseye shooting, but I was pleasantly surprised that accuracy did not seem to diminish.
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If that horizontal dispersion was all that was going on, but you say it's not always so flat. I trust you've given it a good workout, perhaps now is the time you ring up the bbl maker and see how it goes with them.
No maker wants a barrel that refuses to shoot out there looking pretty like that, but running down their reputation.
And a new idea just popped into my head: Maybe the rifling rate "relaxes" a bit at the muzzle. This is reportedly the death of any chance of accuracy. It's the opposite of gain-twist and doesn't have to be much. Would take some serious measuring to sort this out. Could be the bbl maker can measure such slight variations.
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I am at a loss, Robby.
I do not know if when cut rifling with modern machines, if the barrel maker can influence the rate of twist while the cutter is running the length of the barrel.
I do know a barrel maker, who buttons modern rifle barrels and he told me he could influence (increase) the rate of twist towards the muzzle by 1/2" (thus, 10" at the breech, 9 1/2" at the muzzle. When cutting 10" rates of twist, this small amount would make what other wise was normal, into a screamer of a shooter.
As Wade mentioned, a rate that slows at the muzzle is not conducive to accurate shooting, however, in a slow twist ML, I do not know how much "influence" a slowing ROTwist would have, if any.
There has to be a reason - again, I'm at a loss.
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I can not help but think you have some sort of bedding/barrel problem. Maybe to do with cross pins/wedges. Since you are target shooting I would try removing all cross pins/wedges except the front one to see if that helps.
Might get away with all removed if smaller caliber rifle.
It sounds to me like the barrel is "walking" when it heats up. I never had a ML do this but sure have fixed a few target rifles with similiar problems.
Dennis
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:-X
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I had a pretty long session yesterday and tried many combinations. At the end I left cautiously optimistic. For now, I have to cast up some more ball and see if I can locate more patching material that seemed to work, only had enough for seven shots. I took five at the paper and the last two at clay pigeons on the berm, dusted them.
(https://i.ibb.co/JntMN9L/IMG-0328.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4Wt5cHy)
Like I said, cautiously optimistic, I'll have to be able to repeat this and gain some confidence in the gun before i would hunt with it. I've sighted over thirty of these guns and never had anything like this happen before. It sure would be nice to have a definitive answer, never had a barrel this finicky before. Heck, maybe it is as Dave suggests and the barrel if finally shooting in. I honestly don't know.
Dennis, I have tried variations of that idea and it had no impact on the scattering.
I'll let you know how it turns out after I get myself resupplied. Thanks!!!!
Robby
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:-X
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Those patches are REALLY blacked up, Robby. They appear as if you cut them from a strip of cloth on the muzzle.
Good luck.
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Daryl, The patches are dark due to my poor picture taking, and yes I do cut at the muzzle. Thanks for the help!
Recurve, you might want to try a long bow.
Robby
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Robby I had that same type of scattering at the beginning of the summer. I tried almost everything I could to get the proper load, ball size, patch thickness, patch lube; and although, as soon as I "think" the grouping is getting better, I'll get one or two "flyers". I think part of my earlier problem was barrel fouling--and it still does foul-"out of the blue". So for me and my rifle (York County replica, .45 cal) the jury is still out. I have probably shot 200-300 balls at paper targets this summer and burned about 3-4 pounds of black powder. One question, are you shooting from a rest position? Good luck, Bill
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Bill, off the bench, good and solid.
Robby
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You may check and see if your rifle is self priming with the 3f. my 36 started self priming so I replaced the touch hole. I was happy with how it shot but the new touch hole made quite a difference. the rifle went from squirrel head accurate to squirrel eye accurate.
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The smaller the bore, the more difficult the " working up of an accurate load."
Ml'ding is not different that modern stuff, in that regard.
There is some commonality in "accurate" loads & we know of standard combinations that seem to work well in the majority of rifles, however now and then, more detailed "work" needs testing.
Appears you are on the right track, Sonny.
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After reading this entire thread, I'm going to mix things up with a real strange notion concerning ramrods. I had a .36 cal 42 in barrelled rifle which would throw the occasional shot off from a group and it drove me nuts trying to figure out why. I found out that the tapered ramrod was not concentric at the breach end and also would be a tighter fit in the entry pipe, depending on the orientation of the rod . This put enough pressure on the barrel , which wasn't bedded perfectly, to affect the point of impact by a small bit. Strange, but after rescraping the rod, the rifle shot true consistently.
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Robby, you never said what brand of 3F and 2F powder you are using.
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Robby, you never said what brand of 3F and 2F powder you are using.
Uniform loading methods are a must and did you weigh the balls after they were cast?
Make and granulation of the powder is important as well.Back in my days of a lot of
shooting we had DuPont and once in a while,Curtis&Harvey from England which seemed
to have more power and was cleaner.Now we have a wider variety of brands or at least
it seems that way.
Bob Roller
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Herb, I use Goes powder and have been for fifty years with no problems.
Bob, No, I don't weigh the balls I cast and believe the way I cast them would leave them very consistent in weight. I try to do everything the same every time, especially when working up a load.
I have been using this powder measure for as long as I can remember to work up loads, when I get there I make a static measure, engraved with that weight, it goes with the gun.
(https://i.ibb.co/C1B07Ms/IMG-0331.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4mWNTYg)
Not that his has anything to do with the problem at hand. I use the amounts indicated in the measure for reference purposes and never thought about their accuracy. Just out of curiosity, last night I decided to weigh a 65gr. of 3F load as indicated on the device. Using my RCBS reloading scale that 65gr. weighed in at 59.5 gr's. Huh! 10gr's is a lot, I thought it would have been more accurate than that. Gee, all those measures I made over the years are wrong, ah well, they work for the gun.
Robby
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Robby, I don't have a lot of building experience building muzzleloaders. but I do have a whole lot of experience bedding centerfire rifles. and that first group is stringing sideways. my first thought, there is pressure on one side of the barrel. what I would look at it the bedding. just a poor ol country boys thought,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Wolf, I'm not sure what you mean. I understand the term in reference to modern rifles.
Robby
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Try a piece of business card under the bottom three flats at the breech.
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Robby, I don't have a lot of building experience building muzzleloaders. but I do have a whole lot of experience bedding centerfire rifles. and that first group is stringing sideways. my first thought, there is pressure on one side of the barrel. what I would look at it the bedding. just a poor ol country boys thought,,,,,,,,,,,,
Wolf I agree totally. Robby has checked things pretty well but I still think bedding somewhere is the culprit.
Dennis
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Wolf, I'm not sure what you mean. I understand the term in reference to modern rifles.
Robby
Robby if there is more pressure on one side of the barrel along the channel "somewhere" it will cause it to walk the shots sideways. if it strings vertical then your pressure is wrong pushing up. the way we get around this problem of a centerfire rifle with half stock is free float the barrel so the wood isn't touching the barrel at all but it is screwed down tight in the action. of course you can't do that with a full stock muzzleloader. so it needs to come out of the stock and make sure it lays in the channel without any high spots putting pressure on the the barrel at one point or several areas. it most likely is pushing the barrel and putting uneven pressure to the left or right side especially when it is screwed down tight and the pins are in place. it needs to lay in the channel without excess pressure anywhere. i hope this helps,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Depending on how dirty a rifle shoots, you should wipe between shots, as a dirty bbl builds resistance, more resistance equals more pressure, more pressure equals a vertical group. With todays ultra lite bbl,s ,the bbl needs to be straight and the inlet needs to be straight. As a bbl heats it will crawl around to suit itself if everything is not perfect Heavy bbl equals less problems, lite bbl,s can equal more.
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Thank you Wolf. I have addressed that idea but your description makes me think it needs a re-visit.
Robby
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Thank you Wolf. I have addressed that idea but your description makes me think it needs a re-visit.
Robby
Yes, was my thoughts too, but you said you'd re-examined the bedding a time or two. Maybe the bbl could be shot outside the stock for testing. Would take some rigging but could be done and should show you something in a few shots.
Not sure how Hugh, Blacksmoke, shoots his new barrels for group, but he does. It should show you where the issue ultimately lies.
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I believe they are shot in a clamping arrangement with a high powered scope mounted above.
Most would call it a "machine" rest. He posted a picture of it some time ago, here or on another site.
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I believe the term is universal receiver.
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A Universal Receiver is a fixed & oversized breaching system that uses screw-in barrels of different calibres for pressure testing of modern ctgs.
It (or they used to be) is rigged for the copper crusher pressure system.
Hugh's system was for testing the accuracy of his "hand rifled" barrels not in stocks, but held rigidly on a bench.
Thus, it was a "Machine Rest".
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Rifle bullet manufacturers use UR to test for accuracy of their bullets.
It doesn't have to have a copper crushing attachment.
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I have done it before. I made a simple carriage to hold the barrel, sweat a plate to the barrel and mount a scope to the plate. I was regulating barrels on a double barreled rifle but the principle would be the same. I'm not quite there yet.
Robin
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The first .40 rifle I built I had a time getting it to group. Tried bear grease and several commercial lubes and different patch thicknesses. I finally used some spit on my patches and the groups shrunk right up. I then started looking for really thin lubes and have used different gun oils and even three-in-one with success. Thin oils aren't good for hunting purposes in my opinion though. I have also found that barrels with wider grooves and smaller lands tend to shoot better with a wider variety of loads than barrels with narrow grooves and wide lands. I also dislike barrels with a twist slower than 1-66".
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I would try .490 balls as well in that rifle, you might be surprised. Some barrels like different sizes of balls
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Robby, Here's my 2 cents. I have a right hand .54 that I shoot with 80gr. of 3f. It shoots extremely well with that load and I never change it. My patches are pillow ticking (.018?) for spit patching and something slightly thinner for a greased (tallow + beargrease) patch when hunting. What I'm wondering is if you aren't hooking your finger around the trigger. If i remember, you said your first shot was on the right. Your heighth is OK. I had the same problem except that I am right handed. A good friend who is a police fire arms instructor wondered if I wasn't hooking my finger and making my shots walk sideways. As soon as I started to be aware of finger placement, my shooting improved considerably. What I'm getting at in this long winded response is that your problem looks like it could be exactly the opposite of mine. You are left handed which would pull them to the left.
Dave
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The too much trigger finger is usually with handguns & can result in either direction, depending on which way the finger is manipulated, either pulling or pushing.
I've net heard of it happening with rifles, especially with long barreled rifles. Good thinking, though. Much of the dispersion might come down to bench-techniques
with THAT rifle, but Robby is not new to this game, I'd wager.
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Robby Do not be offended but are you sure you have the skill level to do better? I,m 79 and sure do not have the skill level. I usta. Usta is the most used word that us old #$@*,s use. I usta catch fish and usta be a good shot ect.
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Hahahahaha, Not offended at all Joe, usta is a regular part of my vocabulary! I have taken that into consideration and have devices to assist me in this endeavor, and even with them, I allow myself a certain amount of leeway. That is why I try different, proven, muzzleloaders at hand, sort off a barometer measuring my current abilities. I'm not so full of myself as to use delusion as a modifying agent. I am just not as bad as this gun shoots, yet.
Robby
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Robby if the rifle is stringing sideways like your is all the different patches, grease, different powder and different size ball in the world will never do a thing to kelp you. even if it isn't a one hole shooter it should at least shoot a triangle 3 shot group at most times. then you will know all is well with the rifle and shooter. then it is a matter of trying different patches, grease, powder and different size ball to get the best load. like I said in my previous posts from what I see I think it is bedding,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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This is from the 9th or 10th posting on the first page:
Robby - "The sights are pretty standard configuration for what I do. Yes, on this target the elevation does look somewhat consistent, that is not always the case. When I first started my sight in over a year ago, my first round would always be near the bull, second round way to the right and it would shotgun after that. Shocked the heck out of me today when the first shot was way to the right from the get go."
Something weird going on for sure. I really don't think it's bedding. 150 shots total is not much, but I've never had to shoot a bunch to get a ML to shoot well.
Witness the Hawken re-make Taylor posted a year or more ago. It was shooting groups right off the bat. I'm pretty sure Old Sam didn't shoot much, but hard to say.
With new rifles Taylor has made, with several different makes of barrels, they all shoot well, right off the bat & we can tell the new owner what load to use just from
some minor testing. We don't start at ball size for the first load - don't see the reason for that (except for the .25 to .36's).
Flinching usually causes misses, to the right, but more 4 o'clock, so that isn't it. If there is no standard stringing, but shooting all over, it isn't the bedding.
Have you tried dry-firing the rifle off the bags (with or without prime) the standard way you shoot, to see if there is movement of the gun due to the lock itself?
If so, a different hold, harder or softer might be the answer. Perhaps that is something you did on the last target you posted? They are definitely not stringing.
A puzzler for sure, but not insurmountable. There MUST be a reason/cause.
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i would switch to a slower powder. You tried Goex 2F with much better results. Try Swiss 1 1/2F, or Swiss 2F, or Olde Eynsford 1 1/2F if you can get a little of those powders for a trial.
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GOEX 1F or Cannon is slower yet. I suspect the 2F is about as slow as you'd want to go in a small bore like a .50. It might work, though.
Taylor did OK with 1F in his .40 Kuntz rifle at Hefley Creek rendezvous. He'd grabbed the wrong horn & had to increase his load somewhat. Once he did that, he didn't miss any gongs. Thankfully, it took a while for him to catch on to the low shooting. ;D
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Neill Fields, who worked at the GRRW, had a rifle that wouldn't group, don't remember what caliber. He finally tried Goex 1F and it shot great. He built more than 400 muzzleloaders.
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Here is Swiss 2F compared to other powders in a .40 I built for Carole. The top rifle is a .40 Carl bought, shot on the top right target. I don't know who built it. The other targets I shot with Carole's rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/0Mb8kXL/DCF-1-0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XsRN94P)
She was on this forum for a while, known as Eagle Lady. We buried her and Carl Friday.
(https://i.ibb.co/TvwXDMT/DCF-1-0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cgy5Khv)
If you left click the picture, it will enlarge. If a little + sign appears, click on that for a sharper image.
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So sad to hear of their passing, Herb. My condolences.
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Herb, I would try the Swiss 1-1/2 G but no one around these parts sells it and ordering just one can is cost prohibitive when I have a considerable amount of Goex in 2 and 3 F on hand, too bad cause I'd like to give it a go.
I am very appreciative of all the suggestions You guys have made and have tried to get to many of them, its a slow process when trying to alter one factor at a time.
Today I stuck with the 65Gr. (by measure), which showed promise, and tried a different patching. This target seems to me is showing the pattern is corralling in somewhat. The thin barely visible line is an 8" diameter circle. Kind of surprised the grouping is off to the right, but it is a grouping, not as tight as it should be, but I am very encouraged!!!!!
(https://i.ibb.co/6bNWLnv/0-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hHCmw7X)
Again, thank you all.
Robby
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Brother Robby, PM me your address and I will share some The Minute-Men patching canvas with you. Worth a try. I know what I have is good stuff, so it may help shorten your journey. God Bless, Marc
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I would consider a non-stress bedding of that barrel. Especially if there is any warpage in the fore stock.
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I don't know what a 'non-stress bedding' is Darkhourse but if you can explain it I will try it. The stock for this rifle was made from the last full length piece of a tree I had cut up at the local sawmill. Because it was only 2-1/8" thick, badly warped, cupped, and twisted, I decided to make a gun for myself with it. It was a real challenge laying out and dealing with its built in contortions and getting a useable stock, almost like chiseling out a sculpture as opposed to the pretty straight forward approach usually used. As it is, the barrel comes out freely with no pinching or binding, and the barrel channel holds pretty straight sans barrel.
I like the gun and it fits me well, begrudgingly she was made, and still putting me through $#*!! HAH!!!
Robby
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Some guns seem to group just fine with just about anything. Some guns make you work for it, and every little thing has to be juuuuuust right or it won't group.
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Robby, I'll try to help you with a non stress bedding job in a few days. Right now I'm trying to remember the details. The last longrifle I bedded like this was my .40 longrifle and that was 15 or so years ago.
DH
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Any "sponginess" or movement when you squeeze the stock to the barrel between the fastening pins?
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Whats the demensions of this bbl?
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I think the sights could be part of the problem, depending on width of the notch and front sight.
I usually need lots of light with V sights, however Taylor can shoot better than I with a really wide rear U notch.
Someone a long time ago, posted a picture to me in a PM of a U notch rear with a bead that fit into the bottom of
the notch which was then used as an aperture sight - for chunk shooting.
It's a thought.
It was something like this only with taller sides and not pinched closer at the top to make the rules. As well
the bead was larger in ratio to the notch.
(https://i.ibb.co/1YCShzX/Aperturerearsight2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/spTBkW1)
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No offense intended, but has anyone else shot it for groups? Are you shooting other flinters on the same day and getting better groups? I try to compare to a known quantity on the same day, as I know that I can sure have a bad day at the range.
If it is indeed the barrel, perhaps re-barrel the rifle? Modern barrel makers can replicate the outside dimensions well enough to replace an existing barrel.
Another option could be having Mr Hoyt look at the barrel and see if he can find an anomaly. If he does, he may be able to bore and re-rifle it.
Your load looks like it should work in a good barrel, as in it is not too loose. A suggestion would be read your patches and see what they are telling you. Perhaps in that light-appearing rifle, try backing off to 70 grains of 2f and see what happens? I have seen in laddering up loads in testing, you hit a sweet spot for groups, then stiffer loads seem to open things up progressively. 85 grains of 3f in my experience equates to maybe 95 grains of 2f. That just may be a might stout for accuracy. Just a thought. It almost seems like with heavy loads in skinny barrels you can get some sort of whipping vibration that throws shots.
That is a gorgeous rifle, and you did a fantastic job, so I can feel your pain and not wanting to let it go.
God Bless, Marc
Sir; I'm not a builder, just a flintlock hunter so I can imagine your frustration. Your rifle is stunningly beautiful. If a buddy happens by for coffee, could they try shooting a group and/or also could you try shooting right handed? Just a thought and I'm dying to hear the final cure.
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Daryl, The sights are challenging and changing them out is on the list, but I have to try some other things first. Still hoping to find that magic combo!
Robby
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Joe, barrel is 48" x 1" B x .75" narrowest point x .82 M
Robby
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Hmmm, So last night I gave the sight issue some time in my thoughts. The sights I made are historically correct for the time and area of style, meaning they are tight to the barrel and small. I began to wonder if with my old eyes I am experiencing parallax, a bending of the light. How this works as it applies to sighting, as an example, if you hold your arms out at full length in front of you toward a light source and bring tow fingers together they appear to touch before they actually do touch, so as I view the front sight through the notch of the rear sight the light in the gap can make the front sight pull to the right or left, when in actuality it is the light in the gap making it appear so.
I am making a new set of sights based more on an 'express sight' style, which will eliminate the possibility of parallax. The original sights will remain with the gun in the patch box, finally good for something, HAH!
The saga continues.
Robby
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Robby
Several people suggested letting someone else shoot the rifle to see what happens. I could not see where you addressed or tried that, perhaps I missed it.
Have you tried that? You are a variable as you know. It certainly could be your eyes and sights.
I have a rifle I built for hunting in .54 several years ago. It will throw a round ever once and a while for unknown reasons and when it does it is quite a few inches. It is frustrating.
Good luck
Fleener
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Snapper, Yes, that is something I want to try. I am hoping when my son gets a day off he can come out here and give it a go. At the range I go to there is hardly a time when there is anyone there and when there is they are old guys who have long since gone to modern scopes. I always offer to let anyone that shows interest in my guns a chance to shoot them, so far, judging from the shooting
I've seen, my eyes are much better than their's, Hah! Thats okay though, I have yet to see anyone not have a big grin on their face after dropping the flint on one of these.
Robby
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The test patching went in today's mail Robby. My apologies for the delay. They think it will be there on Tuesday. God Bless, Marc
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The rear sight could very well be the culprit in shooting large groups. Might not be a rifle issue at all.
Several years ago I checked my sights in the late summer and everything was shooting right where they were supposed to. In preparation for some squirrel hunting I checked my .40 over Christmas. I couldn't shoot a group. Period.
I didn't think it was the rifle so it had to be me. It was. My sight had deteriorated that fast.
Since I hunt by my own rules, it wouldn't matter if I installed peeps on my rifles.
I wanted a small peep that wouldn't stand out and look too bad on my rifles.
This is what I came up with and all of a sudden I was shooting tight groups again. I'm well pleased.
(https://i.ibb.co/S3C6TNJ/SS850099.jpg)
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Thank you Marc!!! Can't wait to give it a go!!
Robby
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I agree with Darkhorse. The last few years my eyesight has just got to the point I have trouble seeing my sights. Shooting targets, game and gongs at close range I am fine but at further distances I needed some help. When I had my .54 rifle built it was expressly for hunting and I just needed to be able to see a little better. My builder (Lowell Haarer) installed this aperture on the rear tang as he has the same problem and installs them on all his own rifles. It is not the rear sight I still have the traditional front and rear sights. This just helps my eye focus and see better. It really works!
(https://i.ibb.co/jTJL7vC/Peep-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y30tv75)
(https://i.ibb.co/NsMdpbb/Peep-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9N7k2SS)
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Using the three sights, aperture, rear and front really does sharpen up the rear and front sights, however they might not be allowed
in some competitions at some rendezvous, even though the open rear sight is still on the rifle. An aperture is an aperture. I am only
mentioning this to prevent possible problems in the future.
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I have never been told I can't use this set up. If they did I guess I would either use a different rifle or pack up and go home never to return to that shoot again. Primitive matches don't allow this set up and I know that going in. $#*! they boot you out if your tent has a zipper on the door.
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darkhorse I like the looks of your sight. how is it attached?
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Looks like a longer tang screw to me.
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That's close Daryl but not quite a tang screw. In the center of that sight I drilled and tapped a #10-48 hole and inserted a piece of threaded screw cut from a regular screw.
In the tang I also drilled and tapped a #10-48 hole. Below this hole I cut some clearance and also deepend the hole in the wood. This hole is actually in the curve of the tang so great care must be taken not to break a drill or tap. Great care must also be taken in laying out this hole and getting it centered in the tang. I want it as close as possible to center, that way I can adjust windage by slightly drifting the front site.
A small nut, used as a lock nut is screwed in from the bottom until it contacts the bottom of the tang. I also had to remove a little metal to get that nut to seat well against the tang. I have used both a locknut, or 2 nuts threaded onto the shaft to lock it in place without the rear sight turning.
Even though the sight can be adjusted for depth it is not designed to be constantly fiddled with. Once the rifle is sighted in the sight is locked into place for hunting.
Prototype pics.
(https://i.ibb.co/jMSsPmf/SS850032.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/4mjLtBw/SS850033.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/1QbYrNs/SS850038.jpg)
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"Thank you Marc!!! Can't wait to give it a go!!
Robby"
USPS said it should arrive today. :-)
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Mebby tomarah! :)
Robby
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LOL- I was looking at the one that uses the tang screw, not darkhorse's sight.
Even his shows at least 2 different sights, one bent sheet steel, the other made from a ctg. case.
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The one that looks like a cartridge case is a prototype made from a .40 cal. S&W. The one's I actually use started life as a piece of 1/8" thick weldable steel.
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With aging eyes I have started opening the notch in the rear site to 1/8” and a bit more with good results.
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Have you tried measuring trigger pressure required to fire the rifle. the cardboard target shows a low - right tendency which could be trigger pull pressure on sight alignment. Also you might try double sandbags, one front and one on the butt to minimize movement when firing - and shades over the sights to eliminate any reflection off of the barrel or sights. my local range faces southwest and is a nightmare later in the day with iron sights.
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Jeff, I have done all those things and continue to do some of them. I'm shooting left handed.
Hudson, I have opened it a bit and will probably do some more but for right now I made a set of express sights I'm working with and the results are nor encouraging.
I've got some patching material coming and want to try that with .490 and .495 balls, express and regular sights. If that doesn't work I will get in contact with the barrel maker and get his thoughts.
Robby
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Robby,
Very "tongue in cheek", but it looks to me like the lock's on the wrong side!!!
Dave
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Robby- these are my sights on the .69 rifle I am using for the postal matches - most of them.
They seem to give me a decent sight picture. The front sight is a small diameter bead.
With these sights & typical patched round ball, from a bench rest, perhaps 2 falls ago, so a young man of 68,
I shot a 5 shot group that was 1/2" at 50 yards on centres. These sights work for me, with old eyes.
load .034" denim (14oz)
85gr. 2F GOEX
.682" pure lead RB.
(https://i.ibb.co/gWcBwFG/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5jJfvxd)
(https://i.ibb.co/RBHLWky/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Brs8R5N)
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Yep, those are the style I made Daryl, my front bead might be a touch larger but I get a very good sight picture. My first trial with them was not encouraging, still not getting a decent group. I was hoping this would prove that it was me all along but it is doing pretty much what it has been doing all along.
Had to take a three day break, hope to be back at it today or tomorrow.
Robin
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Robby, any time I use a bead front sight, I have found a special made target really helps with accuracy. A front bead covers so much of the target that it is hard to know the aiming point.
I use a large sheet of day-glo yellow poster paper, and add a full length 1" wide black cross on the paper with a magic marker. It appears at a distance like a crosshair behind the front bead, allowing fine centering. I've shot groups at 1-1/4" at 100 yards with a bead front and a peep with that target.
Just an idea for you. Did the patching arrive yet? God Bless, Marc
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Good idea on the target, Marc.
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Mark, That is pretty much the target I made after my first go with the bead front sight, I left it the natural cardboard color and 1/2" bars though. Shows up great, I can center the vertical bar and hold the bead so it is capped by the horizontal bar. Weather went to $#@* here the last couple days, hoping for tomorrow.
Robby
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My late friend Helmut used to like a similar target for sighting in his rifle. But it consisted of only one black bar on the paper. He'd start with the bar horizontal and when he could keep all his shots in the bar, he'd turn it vertical. That way he got his elevation and windage set quite simply.
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I located a photo of one of my targets cut from the big piece of poster board. Shot with an unmentionable peep-sighted small bore at 100 yards while braced against a column. I stopped at three shots so as not to ruin the group. LOL. ;D
Seriously, that high one was the first shot from the bore, so to me it means that I do not worry too much about dispersion of the first shot from clean bore....unless the target is a squirrel's head.
In this case the black lines are 1-1/4" wide, so this group is a little over 1-1/4". I usually use 1" lines, but either looks about the same at that distance.
This was a peep sight with bead front.
Hope this helps. God Bless, Marc
(https://i.ibb.co/qYXznj4/IMG-6948.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0y8kX2W)
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Well, boy's, I'm done. After more than a year of trying everything I know and everything other people know, this is the best group I could achieve, it is also the last, and not acceptable to me. It was a good day for shooting, great sight picture, holding rock steady from the bench. Thank you all, I sincerely appreciate all the input from you guys!!!!!!!
(https://i.ibb.co/CbpKVNv/0-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hBxF2hH)
I will get in touch with the barrel maker and see what shakes out. I will not speculate on that.
Robby
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Agreed - that would be very frustrating indeed.
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I hear you brother. At least you did all you could. I know it is frustrating.
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I could not find the barrel dimensions in this thread. Light barrels can be very fussy about how they are rested on the bench, Resting the muzzle can actually adversely effect the accuracy. Also heating up from shooting will impact a light barrel much more than a heavy barrel
If it is a light swamped barrel, like an A weight or a 13/16 straight 50 cal it is going to be fussy about hold points and temperature.