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General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Deron Smith on September 09, 2020, 08:18:09 PM

Title: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Deron Smith on September 09, 2020, 08:18:09 PM
Afternoon, i'm new to the forum...and really to long rifles in general. But, I'm wondering are any of you George Washington Hatfield gun experts? I'm interested in someone who might have one, or know where they are. Thanks so much!
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: flinchrocket on September 09, 2020, 08:46:16 PM
You might try the Emanual Hatfield Museum in Owensburg,Indiana. I don't think they will want to sell any.
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Deron Smith on September 09, 2020, 11:19:00 PM
Thanks so much. I'm a descendant of GW Hatfield and have been doing a ton of deep genealogy work. I have that book by Emmanuel, but I'm just looking for more information on GW's work... I found a 2016 story in Muzzle Loader and have it on order. I just figured this group may know more. Thanks again!
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: flinchrocket on September 09, 2020, 11:44:08 PM
I think there was an article in muzzle blast in 2016 also by Shelby Gallien.
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Tanselman on September 10, 2020, 12:41:20 AM
I have published two large articles on George Washington Hatfield in Muzzle Blasts, spread over 4 issues. It covers his growing up, learning gunmaking, and illustrations of most of his known rifles, a couple of which I have owned over the years. First two-part article was in Sept. and Oct. of 2003 "Muzzle Blasts," and last two-part article in "Muzzle Blasts" with an in-depth look at his better rifles was in July and August of 2016.

Shelby Gallien
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Deron Smith on September 10, 2020, 07:12:59 PM
Thank you Shelby. I found the 2016 Muzzle Blast editions on eBay and purchased them. Any idea where I could find the Sept/October 2003 editions?
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Deron Smith on September 10, 2020, 10:26:35 PM
Shelby, quick update...I called the magazine earlier today and was able to purchase back copies. Thanks for the lead.
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Tanselman on September 10, 2020, 11:04:39 PM
One correction to an above comment. Washington Hatfield is not buried in the same cemetery in Owensburg as his brother Emanuel and father. Washington is actually buried on a hill top behind his old farm a few miles outside of town, in a single grave that is well marked and still there. No other family members are buried there, but it was supposedly his final wish to be buried there, and it was honored.

If you want to see a nice Hatfield rifle, go to the Lawrence County, Indiana, Historical Museum in downtown Bedford, I think on Main Street. They have Washington's personal rifle, the same one illustrated in the old Albert Lindert book, "Gunmakers of Indiana" that's long out of print. There are two life-time photos of Washington Hatfield in existance. One is in the little general store in Owensburg where brother Emanuel used to sit on the porch and spin yarns to kids in the neighborhood. There is also a great old photo in existance of Emanuel sitting on the General Store porch with another brother and holding his original Hatfield rifle.

Finding an original W. Hatfield rifle is difficult; they are seldom seen even among Indiana collectors who watch for them. I have owned the Emanuel Hatfield rifle - made by Washington [technically, restocked by Washington] but have moved it along. I did find another unsigned Washington Hatfield rifle a few years back, with all his "trademark" details including his iron mountings and distinctive cast chevron nose cap with "teeth" on the back edge, but it has also moved on. I have never seen an original Hatfield on a gun show table with a price tag on it. I bought from out-of-state collectors who didn't know what they had, and didn't know much about Tennessee-style rifles.  Hope you can find one, but it takes a lot of looking, mostly outside of Indiana, and a lot of time unless you are really lucky. 

Fellow Hoosier Jeff Jaeger is wrapping up a large reference book on Indiana Gunmakers, hopefully coming out early next year since I've been fortunate to see proofs of some of his pages. Great color photography, and he will provide some great pictures of Hatfield rifles in the book. Shelby Gallien
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: vanu on September 10, 2020, 11:27:37 PM
Not sure if this is still available, but might be of interest to the OP:

http://oldcolonelmilitaria.com/product/george-washington-hatfield-made-percussion-long-rifle-early-19th-century/
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: dogbest on September 11, 2020, 12:07:33 AM
Wow, they're proud of that rifle!
It's nice but pricey!
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Tanselman on September 11, 2020, 02:17:58 AM
This fine Hatfield rifle is the best one to surface to date. However, it has two small issues. The original pewter nose cap, as mentioned at the bottom of the sales description, has in fact been lost. I had spoken to Rock Island Auction before the sale (they graciously supplied the photos for my article] and asked if they would remove the barrel and check for any indications of an earlier cast nose cap, since the gun appeared, to me at least, of being shortened an inch or slightly more. Rock Island did have someone re-inspect the rifle. and there were indications the rifle originally had a cast nose cap. If I recall correctly, there were traces of the old cuts for the chevron design visible on the wood just at the edge of the current brass nose cap. However, the slighlty shortened barrel does not significantly alter the appearance of the rifle.

Also keep in mind that any attributed rifle, without the maker's name somewhere on the rifle, is always a little less valuable due to the possibility, even if minimal, that the attribution is wrong. One other known Hatfield rifle is not signed by Washington Hatfield, although it is obviously his work. That rifle was owned, used by, and carried the name of his younger brother, Emanuel Hatfield, and is one I owned some years ago and had the opportunity to examine closely. The reason for not being signed by Hatfield, I believe, was that the gun was built using, or more correctly re-using, an earlier barrel. I believe most early gunsmiths would not sign a re-used barrel on a gun they built IF the barrel was signed/initialed by a prior gunsmith. That was the case with Emanuel Hatfield's rifle.  It may be the case with this fine rifle.

The most expensive Hatfield I've seen sell, other than this fine one, was the Emanuel Hatfield rifle, made by Washington Hatfield about 1840. That rifle had a tremendous provenance behind it, including an actual photograph of Emanuel Hatfield holding the exact same rifle, and a long story about all the market hunting done with the rifle. And that rifle went for about half of what this one is listed for.  Shelby Gallien
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: dogbest on September 11, 2020, 03:58:47 PM
Shelby,
Thanks for the information! Appreciated.
Dan
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: flinchrocket on September 13, 2020, 01:56:54 AM
Deron, there is some info on Mr. Hatfield in the History of Greene County Indiana, in case your interested.https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A2KLfSSTUl1fm70AHJLBGOd_;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzgEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1599980308/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2farchive.org%2fstream%2fearlyhistoryofgr00babe%2fearlyhistoryofgr00babe_djvu.txt/RK=2/RS=VxU8M0cJi2xT_QrkorM2bs9c7r8-
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Deron Smith on September 14, 2020, 07:01:49 PM
Everyone, thanks so much for all your thoughtful replies. Shelby, I've purchased the back issues of Muzzle Blasts and am looking forward to reading them. I have also found the History of Greene Indiana. I will check out the museum in Bedford...AND...I'll keep my eyes and ears open for an available gun.

An addendum, GW made a gun that was passed down through the family to the oldest son. It went to my uncle and his son, who fell on hard times when he was young and sold it. I'm going to see if I can track it down, but I expect it's lost to the ages. That said, I'm more interested in the history and stories.

I appreciate you all!
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Cades Cove Fiddler on September 14, 2020, 10:47:06 PM
 :) :)... Mr. Smith,.. I've been enjoying your post and find these rifles interesting,... have found a few views of these rifles on the internet and their resemblance to Tennessee rifles is remarkable,... here is a photo I downloaded off some kind fellow's blog,... I believe it was at the Princeton IL show a dew years back,.... A G.W. Hatfield rifle,.... good luck in your search,.... CCF,... 
(https://i.ibb.co/KLS2VmN/IMG-5993-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dLxPk7b)
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Tanselman on September 14, 2020, 11:17:06 PM
That display was put on by Jeff Jaeger, the Indiana collector/researcher who is putting out a new, all color book on early Indiana rifles early next spring. The rifle in the foreground [actually, Hatfield chevron nosecap] is the Emanuel Hatfield rifle that I have talked about, and the picture in the rear, figure on the left, is Emanuel Hatfield holding that exact rifle on the front porch of the general store in Owensburg. Over on the right side of the picture is the silver medal won at the NRA Annual Show years ago in Louisville, where the rifle was displayed along with the photos, and won one of 10 best guns in show.    Shelby Gallien
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Cades Cove Fiddler on September 15, 2020, 12:31:56 AM
 ;)... Thanx, Shelby,... appreciate the remarks,... I couldn't remember where I got the photo,... just was amazed at the similarity to Tennessee made rifles,....CCF
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Tanselman on September 15, 2020, 05:59:55 AM
Well, Washington Hatfield's rifles are basically Fentress County, TN rifles that were made in Indiana by mistake. His rifles never looked like the same period Indiana rifles until later in life when he began using commercial brass furniture. But even then, his stock architecture stayed leaner looking, more like a southern rifle than a typical Indiana rifle. I think that's why Indiana collectors value them so highly, just better looking rifles with some neater details than most IN guns of the same period.
Shelby Gallien
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Clear Spring Armory on September 15, 2020, 08:38:17 PM
My memory is horrendous, so I don't exactly remember everything about this, but I got lost up around Greene County some years ago looking for a jobsite. Stumbled in to an old General store in a little town looking for lunch. When I got inside I was suprised to see lots of antiques for sale, including an entire blacksmiths starter kit, anvil, tongs, forge, etc. Got to talking to owner about the tools and it came out that I built guns. If I remember right he told me he was related to GW Hatfield and went into some things about him. And the irony was that I had only recently learned of the man and his guns before this lucky encounter. I aimed to go back sometime and have a ham sandwich and talk with the guy again when I had more time, but never have. Maybe the same old store where the picture was taken? I think it was Owensburg, maybe not. I think a Jeep ride is in my near future.

Shelby: I probably need to go check out this museum. I assume you meant Larwence County Museum, not Bedford County? Just located in the town of Bedford?
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Tanselman on September 15, 2020, 10:59:50 PM
Yup.... Bedford in Lawrence County, the center of Indiana's limestone business.  Shelby Gallien
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Deron Smith on September 15, 2020, 11:10:15 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/YcB71ct/GWH-Gun-Lawrence-County.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VgYWzgv)

Here's the gun they have in the Lawrence County Museum in Bedford. Shelby, is this the gun on the front of the July 2016 Muzzle Blasts?
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Deron Smith on September 15, 2020, 11:12:04 PM
Shelby...I've sure enjoyed your articles on GW Hatfield. I've shared with the broader Hatfield clan.

I have a cousin who inherited the gun made for Joel, passed to Hiram, my grandfather Cloudy...but he later sold it. Any idea who may have purchased it in the Monroe County Indiana area?
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Deron Smith on September 16, 2020, 12:19:38 AM
Shelby, one more request...is it possible to put me in touch with Jeff? i realize it's weird to share his info with me so you can just send him my email: mrderonasmith@gmail.com. I just have some more specific questions. If he doesn't want to respond, certainly, no worries. Thank you.
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Tanselman on September 16, 2020, 06:45:52 AM
Deron,

The gun on the cover of "Muzzle Blasts" is the fancier one with curly maple stock that sold through Rock Island Auction a few years back, and is now for sale on that other web site for about 8.5K. I have no clue to any past purchases of Hatfield rifles, only the two I bought and later moved on as mentioned in preceding posts. I have heard there is at least one still with Hatfield decendants in or near Greene County...if by chance your family rifle was sold to another Hatfield relative who wanted one badly.

There are also a couple of "wanna be" rifles floating around central and southern Indiana, from collector to collector, which are said to be Hatfield rifles but are NOT. So be careful if and when you locate one, and make sure it is either initialed correctly, or has all the correct Hatfield details on it before buying. The worst and most persistent sellers are the ones who got fooled, or burned, in the past and now want to move what they thought was a Hatfield [but really wasn't] along to the next gullible buyer. I will pass your e-mail along to Jeff Jaeger and tell him you are a decendant interested in the old Hatfield rifles, but no guarantee he will respond.  Shelby Gallien
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Yazel.xring on September 25, 2020, 06:11:38 PM
Hi all, Ian Pratt sent me the link to this thread. After our conversation on the Muzzle Blasts Podcast, I've been diving into more iron mountain rifle history and began to seek out the GW Hatfield articles in Muzzle Blasts.

As a part of our ongoing work to publish the Muzzle Blasts Archives online, I've published the articles from 2016 on the NMLRA blog.

You can find them here - https://www.nmlra.org/news/whatfield-pt1-2016 (https://www.nmlra.org/news/whatfield-pt1-2016) and here https://www.nmlra.org/news/whatfield-pt2-2016 (https://www.nmlra.org/news/whatfield-pt2-2016)

I'm working on digging up the articles from 2003 to make them more easily accessible.

Thank you Shelby Gallien and Jeff Jaeger, love the articles.
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: flinchrocket on October 01, 2020, 04:13:45 AM
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=4161.0
I was just looking at the similarity of this triggerguard and the Hatfield triggerguard.
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Tanselman on October 08, 2020, 11:19:34 PM
I question the "stamp" assertion on original Hatfield rifles. I have handled a good number, early and late, and have never seen a stamp on a lock plate. Locks were always commercial import locks, at times with the hardware merchant stamp on them, but never a Hatfield stamp. I am not aware of any original Hatfield rifle where the butt plate has been removed for any reason, so I have not seen what is beneath the butt plates.

It is odd that Hatfield always used a small, straight chisel to stamp in the lines of his initials on the barrel or a butt inlay, often with a small "ball" stamped at the end of each long line. But I have not seen any Hatfield rifle with a normal-type stamped name or initials, always the individually stamped lines making up each initial. If he did not have a "standard" name stamp for his rifle barrels or inlays, it's hard for me to imagine he had a stamp for marking under his butt plates. I would have to know what the stamp actually was, and see an example of it, before I would give credibility to the "stamp" story. I've seen/handled a good many of his known rifles here in Indiana, and have never seen anything to support this claim.  Shelby Gallien
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Tanselman on October 09, 2020, 08:12:40 AM
Is that a signed Hatfield rifle? The reason I ask is that the tail of the side facing looks a little more pointed than I would expect on a normal Hatfield rifle. Any chance we can we see the full side facing and guard?

I ask this question because Hatfield rifles are important to collectors here in Indiana, significant research has been done on the maker and his rifles, and Hatfield decendants have been talked to regarding Washington's rifles. I have never had a Hatfield decendant mention to me any kind of stamp, or identifying mark, other than the "W H" we see on perhaps half of his known rifles. So when I hear of a new Hatfield mark, particularly when no description or image of the mark is provided, I am suspicious until I see something to substantiate the claim. I agree the stamp on the tail of your lock is somewhat different than a normal decorative stamp on a commercial lock, but I see no "Hatfield" influence in the mark. Hatfield used simple geometric shapes for his limited decorative purposes, and your stamp uses soft curves and perhaps volutes.

I just want to be cautious about this newly discovered way to identify Harfield rifles when nothing to substantiate the claim has been offered and no description of the mark provided, and years of research into Hatfield rifles has failed to note this new mark.  Below is another stamping on a lock tail, not the same, but an odd-ball by the lockmaker.

Shelby Gallien 

 
(https://i.ibb.co/L0nqGGp/lock-tail.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PrwbSSC)
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Tanselman on October 09, 2020, 09:37:13 PM
I would like to speak with the gentleman. 

I went back and looked at the rifle you posted on the 1st page of this thread, and noted it was the one you showed the lock from with the stamp on the lock's tail. I did not respond to that rifle at the time since I didn't want to "dampen" the thread, but will do so now because of the "stamp" issue. The rifle resembles Hatfield work, but is not a Hatfield rifle. Some important details did not change on Hatfield's work, and this rifle does not have those details. Specifically, 1) the cast nose cap is incorrect, 2) the rear pipe treatment is incorrect, and 3) of particular importance is the cheekpiece that is incorrect. I have never seen a Hatfield rifle, signed or unsigned, without his standard cheek style of shorter cheek with single, heavy molding line at bottom. While this rifle resembles Hatfield rifles in general appearance, unless it is clearly signed [which I doubt], it would not be attributed to Washington Hatfield by knowledgeable collectors or researchers. Shelby Gallien
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Tanselman on October 10, 2020, 04:35:21 AM
This is somewhat of an "apples and oranges" discussion. The comments on Schreckengost rifles point out the difficulties in applying that same knowledge or logic to Washinton Hatfield's work:

1. Hatfield was never a prolific maker and worked in a backwoods environment where change came more slowly;
2. The many changes in Schreckengost rifles are validated with signed examples of his work, yet none of the claimed "variants" on Hatfield guns mentioned here have been validated by signed examples of Hatfield's work;
3. Those of us in Indiana who have studied Hatfield rifles from an objective viewpoint have built a good knowledge of his work, his skill levels, and his design details over the years...probably much like you have done with the Schreckengost rifles;
4. Some details on Hatfield rifles did not change significantly over the years, and have been documented with signed rifles from his early days to his later years. Those are the "markers" we use when examining unsigned "similar" rifles to determine if they can be attributed to Hatfield, or if variations are too significant or too numerous to make the attribution.

Hatfield rifles have been sought after for years in the Midwest, due in part to the lengthy entry on Hatfield with a picture of the gunsmith holding his personal rifle in the out-of-print book by Albert Lindert, "Gunsmiths of Indiana," printed and reprinted back in the 1950s and 1960s. Researcher/collector/historian Jeff Jaeger of Indiana is publishing a new book on Indiana gunsmiths, with expected release early in 2021. He will illustrate a number of Hatfield rifles for those wishing to study validated rifles and learn more about Hatfield's work and how it both changed, and remained the same in some aspects, over his working years.

Shelby Gallien

Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Tanselman on October 12, 2020, 08:13:49 AM
I do not have highly detailed photos to share at this time. However...most significant details on original Hatfield rifles are shown in the illustrations in the four "Muzzle Blast" articles from Sept. & Oct. of 2003 and July & Aug. of 2016. Much of the photography is/was done by Jeff Jaeger of Indiana and is very good. I will take some time over the next few days to write short descritions of several important details for identifying Hatfield rifles, particularly those details that did not change significantly over the years, and post them here.  Shelby Gallien
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: Tanselman on October 14, 2020, 08:52:55 AM
Here are several details that help identify original Washington Hatfield rifles:

1. Cheekpiece - Stock architecture remained much the same over Hatfield's working years. The most consistent detail on ALL Hatfield rifles is the cheekpiece. All known Hatfield rifles have virtually the same cheekpiece, from his early work to his late work. Cheek is relative short, sits rather low on the butt compared to other rifles, and has a single bold molding line across the bottom edge.

2. Chevron Nose Cap - This is the best known Hatfield "trademark" on full-stocked, iron mounted rifles. His standard cast pewter cap design had three chevrons slanting downward as they ran forward. The chevrons anchored on a slightly narrower strip running along the top edges of the barrel, and on a third strip that served as center line at the bottom. A key detail was  the several triangular "teeth" that extended rearward off the back edge of the chevron nose cap, perhaps three or four on either side. The pattern remained consistent up until he began making half-stocked rifles, at which time he began casting more conventional solid pewter nose caps to go with his increased use of commerical brass mountings.

3. Side plate [or lock bolt washer]: Hatfield used a modified style of the inverted "T" Tennessee lock bolt plate. He tapered both ends of the "T" downward into points, at times with a slight dip on either side of the lock bolt. His early lock bolt plates were wider, and they narrowed as time passed. He eventually went to his late style washer where the two arms were mere pointed bumps, almost making the lock bolt washer look like a low bell shape.  Early rifles most often had iron lock bolt washers, but later rifles used brass more often. Note: There are two known rifles with more elaborate iron side plates shaped like an arrow pointing forward with a swirled tail, but these only appear on on family-related rifles so far as we know today and are extremely rare.

4. Side facings - had slight hint of a point at the ends, but not pronounced. Most  important detail was the rear side facing, which ran straight out after dipping around the lock bolt, without any small step in it as was/is often seen on other makers' rifles.

5. Rear Pipe - Hatfield at times used a TN style rear pipe, and at other times a more conventional rear pipe. When he used a TN style rear pipe, it consisted of a pipe without flange/tail butted against a flat face where rod entered grip area. At times [not always] he would reinforce the thin forestock wood just behind/below the rear pipe by adding a single band of sheet brass about 1/3 to 1/2 the width of the rear pipe. The reinforcement ran about a third of the way up each side of the forestock. No known original Hatfield rifle has wider bands, or a second band behind the first, or any type of engraving on the reinforcing band.

Hatfield's later rifles, probably mid-to-late 1850s and later, went to commerical brass mountings including guard and rear pipe, and a conventional cast pewter nose cap. These later guns can vary more than his early work, but his basic stock architecture remained the same - lean with straight comb and toe lines in a triangular butt style. His butt curvature became a somewhat deeper cresent shape, but he seemed to avoid the extreme pointed toes and extended heels of some later makers. But his standard Hatfield-style cheekpiece remained the same, and was his most consistent "marker" detail. 

This brief identification guide doesn't mean we've seen everything, or know everything, with regard to Hatfield rifles. But it does mean that of the positively identified Hatfield rifles, these specific details are present, and should be looked for when trying to identify or attribute a new rifle to Washington Hatfield.  Shelby Gallien
Title: Re: George Washington Hatfield
Post by: flinchrocket on April 15, 2021, 03:55:41 AM
Thank you Shelby for providing those details.