AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: MikeyBiker on September 22, 2020, 09:55:14 PM
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Many years ago, I bought this flintlock directly from Frank Straight’s Green River Forge. After a move from California to Indiana, the purchase paperwork was destroyed in a flood. Now, with my two grandsons, I intend to bring it back to active duty and firing order. It worked magnificently last time, but that was decades ago!
My question for the group: Could anyone identify the model name?
I see some internet images of ‘Astorian’ and ‘Northwest’ but they do not match this one in every detail. Such information would just go to increase the experience this fall when we loose a few balls at the target. Just as a 'gee whiz' ~ I did find the paper describing what I think is the rear sight. It was in the {cracked} powder horn! An Andy Fautheree perhaps?
Thanks in advance,
Mike
Valparaiso, Indiana
p.s. If I knew how to tag "Muskrat" Mike McGuire aka MuskratMike ~ I would do so...
But I'm an old buzzard, a new member, and this is my very first post.
(https://i.ibb.co/3MGsCRy/Green-River-Forge.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LJbPZNz)
(https://i.ibb.co/Hhq8m85/Green-River-Forge.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y0hsvsH)
(https://i.ibb.co/m4YKZyF/Green-River-Forge.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cQp9f8X)
(https://i.ibb.co/TcvnVs2/Green-River-Forge.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gyjX5x9)
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It's a fullstock Hawken, but I'm not sure that's what they called it.
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The first thought that came to me was that it looked a lot like a Leman.
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It was therefore, either their full stock Hawken, or a full stocked leman.
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With that guard it’s no Leman.
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Right you are, Rich.
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This is "Muskrat" Mike: how may I be of help? Will also message you.
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If indeed this gun was built by the folks at GRF, it had to be very late in they’re production. Earlier they steered clear of anything Hawken. Their Astorian was as close as they got, and this doesn’t look like an Astorian. GRF also was pretty handy at reworking production locks to make them look less like a common production locks, but this lock is a straight up, right out of a catalog, production lock. This may be one of the last guns they built out of parts on hand.
Hungry Horse
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the trigger guard looks like its from GRRW me i always wonder how many guns was built using left over parts from both GRRW and GRF. late after going out of business
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The rifle is definitely modeled after a Hawken full stock. Pretty decent rifle too.
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Hello again, this is Mike the original poster of the topic.
Thank you all for your thoughts and observations, including the direct message!
I'm following several leads, and have asked for help from those sources suggested...
I will return here to check from time to time, and will also post any pertinent discoveries I make.
... hope this finds you all well and happy!
mike
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Mike,
When I was still teaching Kentucky Rifle Building classes, one of my buddies built a full stock Hawken from plans he had. Your rifle is the spitting image of his, just with a shorter barrel. I don't know if this helps, it's just my $0.02.
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I know not about which gun it represents but the lock is an L&R "Late English".
Bob Roller
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Looks that way to me, too, Bob. The lock panels are a little oversize to my eye
but overall, it is a fine rifle to own and hopefully shoot.
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The "Astorian"mentioned in the beginning of this thread was a half stock
and was offered with a Siler lock. I offered the Ketland that I was making
and it was rejected in spite of the hot performance it gave.In that time
frame the lock had to be the cheapest thing on the gun.Good barrels,
wood and small parts but cheap lock ;D and triggers if set triggers were
wanted.I think this company advertised in the old Buckskin Report.
Bob Roller
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You’re right Bob, they did advertise in the Buckskin Report. They used Lott marked locks on their tradeguns, but removed the “Lott” signature, and replaced it with a sitting fox. The sitting fox was acid etched in the early production, and stamped in later production. They also put hand forged mainsprings in those locks, and occasionally etched GRF on the tail of the lock in script. The junky frizzens they didn’t fix.
Hungry Horse
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Just an update on my own efforts and {lack of} progress.
Through leads generated by the responses from this forum, and the extended links and advice so instigated, I was unable to resist 'looking inside' for a gunsmith ID mark, serial number, or any further clue. I found nothing. The lock was pretty dirty, some nicks and scratches but VERY minor, etc.
Two things of note:
1. The breech plug-tang extension part has a slight misalignment of the witness mark. This is maybe a few thousandths... and if it is a right hand thread it may be tightened a little more?
2. The touch hole is 'just there' ~ flush with the barrel flat and smoothly fit to the surface.
See image please.
Toward the original intent of my post ~ if this blurb gives anyone any clues, please let me know.
My next question will be "how can I clean this thing without sloshing water all over my maple?"
Should that be another post to the forum?
I took bunches of pictures. If anyone wants to see 'em, let me know which part and view...
I can even show you the breech end of the bore ~ illuminated by a light through the touch hole, but it just looks crusty and gunky.
Thank you everyone!
mike
(https://i.ibb.co/rfKv41z/209-0050.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Fqkngjy)
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I know not about which gun it represents but the lock is an L&R "Late English".
Bob Roller
~ to Bob Roller ~
This is Mike, the original poster and new member. I've read your comments and thank you.
Here's my lock, during the process of cleaning... first time ever!
If you notice anything goofy about it, I'd like to learn your thoughts. See that view with the pink background?
Is the hammer properly aligned? It sure sparks when I cycle it, but looks odd at some angles of view.
(https://i.ibb.co/02PbzXg/Lock-L-R.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wgDm2L9)
(https://i.ibb.co/RpSVzHD/209-0068.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VWNP2Bq)
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Mike,
Innumerable posts on here about cleaning. To save you a little searching, while you have the barrel out, plug the touch hole with a toothpick and fill with cold water. Let sit for a few minutes. Dump water. Remove toothpick. Then I'd use my range rod (steel rod with muzzle protector) and breech face scraper to scrape gunk. Fill again and rinse again. Remove toothpick.
Clamp barrel in vice with padded jaws. I use cold water with a little Pine Sol or dishwashing detergent. Everyone has their own formula, this works for me. Run wet patches through until they come out clean. Don't worry about a little water squirting out of touch hole. Cover with soft cloth if it bothers you. I've had much worse spilled on my bench. May be very lightly shaded gray from residual graphite. Nothing to worry about. Run clean, dry patches until thoroughly dry.
Run oiled patch down to prevent rust. Use your favorite oil. Again, the discussions on which oil to use are legion. I like WD 40 and Ballistol.
Same method works with barrel in the stock. If you get a little water on the stock, just wipe it off. Instead of clamping barrel in vice, I'll clamp the assembled rifle. Just be careful not to clamp too hard. I use padded jaws and a soft cloth so as not to mar the wood.
With barrel out, I also make sure to wipe it down well and give it a light coat of oil before re-assembly.
If someone has used something nasty for patch lube, like Wonderlube or some other lubricants, it might take a couple times with the scraper. I've even had to run green Scothbrite pads wrapped around a worm a few times for stubborn gunk.
No clues as to origin or lock. Bob Roller is a lock guru but to me, if it sparks well and functions properly, I'd suggest you don't mess with it. Clean it, lightly grease the bearing surfaces, reassemble.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Paul
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Thanks Paul.
I took your response with copy/paste and now it is my reference for the process.
Wow, yes, this forum has an immense knowledge base for cleaning!
Yours, I'll say, has the ring of moderation and yet effectivity.
mike
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Mike,
Glad I could be of some help. If you want to get lost in the weeds, see the current discussion on Murphy’s Oil Soap. Or better, search “cleaning” or “patch lube.” Biggest thing is don’t overthink it. These are simple firearms. Real black powder is water soluble. Hot water may cause flash rust. Light oils help prevent rust. Patches are cheap. In fact, I cut up old cotton t shirts for cleaning. Occasionally buy a bag. Use as many as it takes.
Only times I’ve had trouble cleaning were when I was playing with different patch lubes. Some really left gunk in the barrel. Now I stick to mink oil or spit.
I had an old TC with a rough, pitted barrel. Pain to clean but shot fine with a tight patch. It got the Scotchbrite treatment. Tore of a piece and wrapped it around a patch worm. Scrubbed the barrel well. You probably won’t need that.
For the really rough barrel, one of the guys (Dave, I think) has posted several times on freshening a barrel or lapping. A lot of manual labor.
I don’t take credit for the technique I described. What I picked up here and from a few others. I hope you get that rifle to the range and enjoy for many years to come!
Paul
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Couple other thoughts to your questions
- I wouldn’t mess with trying to tighten breech plug. Looks like tang matches top barrel flat. If this were off, Might be different.
- yes, please post photo of breech face. Just to see how bad gunk is.
- I’ve had good service from my L&R locks.
Paul
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I know not about which gun it represents but the lock is an L&R "Late English".
Bob Roller
~ to Bob Roller ~
This is Mike, the original poster and new member. I've read your comments and thank you.
Here's my lock, during the process of cleaning... first time ever!
If you notice anything goofy about it, I'd like to learn your thoughts. See that view with the pink background?
Is the hammer properly aligned? It sure sparks when I cycle it, but looks odd at some angles of view.
(https://i.ibb.co/02PbzXg/Lock-L-R.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wgDm2L9)
(https://i.ibb.co/RpSVzHD/209-0068.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VWNP2Bq)
Mike,
That lock looks typical of the L&R's and the fit of the small bearing thru the bridle
looks better than most of them.If it produces good reliable fire with the flints you
have I would do nothing beyond cleaning it and making sure the 2 upper bridle screws
are tight and that the sear moves easily.Enjoy the gun,it is NOT junk in any way.
Bob Roller
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Just to add my 2¢, I can't positively identify your rifle, but I agree with the consensus that it is representative of a Hawken full stock rifle.
I own a GRF NW trade gun and a GRF Hudson's Bay Factor's Pistol, both of which were made when Frank Straight owned the company. I have also researched the company from the old black powder magazines and through their catalogs.
Green River Forge went through three different ownerships. Frank Straight started the company in Bellevue, Washington in the late 1960's or early 1970's. Straight sold the business in early 1977, and it was moved to Springfield, Oregon. A Herb Hazen, Bill Jones, and Jess Scott appear to have operated the company in Springfield. Green River Forge was sold again at the end of 1979 and moved to Roosevelt, Utah, the home of GRRW. The new owner was Bill Brandenburg, the business manager of Green River Rifle Works.
Bill Brandenburg may have bought GRF as a life line because of the financial trouble GRRW was having and knew its days were numbered. He operated GRF out of Roosevelt, Utah until early 1985 when he moved to California.
From GRF Catalog used in 1976 when Frank Straight still owned the company.
(https://i.ibb.co/4YVVbhs/1976-GRF-Catalog-Bellvue-WA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VQqqFfH)
From GRF Catalog used in 1979 when the company was in Springfield, Oregon.
(https://i.ibb.co/TPDVFmD/1979-GRF-Catalog-Springfield-OR.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j39c1g9)
From GRF Catalog used in 1980 when the company was in Roosevelt, Utah.
(https://i.ibb.co/YXtmpQC/1980-GRF-Catalog-Roosevelt-UT.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0KfTh27)
1980 GRF Price List
(https://i.ibb.co/8jXf6ZB/1980-GRF-Price-List.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4jJXPrf)
GRF Catalog used in 1984/85
(https://i.ibb.co/ySw73sC/1981-85-GRF-Catalog-Fulton-CA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BNXF1sJ)
Frank Straight only lists the NW Trade Gun, the Astorian Rifle, and the Hudson's Bay Factor's Pistol when he owned the company.
The Springfield, Oregon company added the Oregon Territory Rifle to the line.
Brandenburg lists the same guns in his first catalog and price list as shown above, but by 1985 he was only listing the NW Trade Gun and the Factor's Pistol as finished guns. It doesn't appear that Brandenburg made very many guns while he owned the company as he seems to have focused on expanding the line of Period Clothing Patterns and the sale of books. I've yet to see a GRF gun known to have been made by Brandenburg or someone in his employ, but they may be out there.
That said, Mike's full stock Hawken may have been made by Brandenburg as a special order item. I agree with Hungry Horse that this rifle would have to be a late production item. I don't see any characteristics that would suggest it was made when Straight owned the company or when the company was located in Springfield, Oregon.
It has been pointed out that the trigger guard is similar to those used by GRRW on their Hawken rifles. I agree with this, though that guard was commercially available from a number of suppliers back then. A little more telling, the butt plate on the subject rifle was also used on GRRW's full stock Hawken rifles. It is the same butt plate that GRRW used on their "Bridger" pattern rifles and may have been a propriety butt plate as we don't see it available commercially again until 1986 when TOTW began offering their "Bridger Hawken" using GRRW's original stock pattern and other parts provided them by Dr. Gary White.
The last bit of circumstantial evidence is the caliber and "GRF" stamps are located on the same flat near the breech that GRRW usually stamped their guns with the caliber, serial number, and makers mark.
None of this is definitive, but it does have enough similarities to GRRW's rifles to suggest that Brandenburg may have made it.
That's assuming of course that the stamp on the barrel stands for Green River Forge and not some individual's initials.
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One thing I remember about GRRW was the several thousand dollars a German customer
paid for guns that were supposed to be delivered at the 1980 International Black powder
matches at Quantico,Va. and were never delivered at all and filing for bankruptcy protected
whoever owned that company from further legal action.Great business ethic >:(
Bob Roller
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Couple other thoughts to your questions
- I wouldn’t mess with trying to tighten breech plug. Looks like tang matches top barrel flat. If this were off, Might be different.
- yes, please post photo of breech face. Just to see how bad gunk is.
- I’ve had good service from my L&R locks.
Paul
Paul ~ I'm not too proud to show junky pictures!
The long one is a 'tactical' flashlight {free NRA renewal gift} shining through the touch hole.
The square one is just a LED inspection light shoved down the bore.
Both show lumpy crud. I'll invest in a 'fouling scraper' tip like the ones from Track of the Wolf.
That assumes it is flat/square with the bore which sounds pretty reasonable. Price is right too.
Thanks for your thoughts.
mike
(https://i.ibb.co/7vG3nZr/209-0046.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G7VZW8C)
(https://i.ibb.co/5jJdMvt/209-0040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NNGXVpQ)
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Couple other thoughts to your questions
- I wouldn’t mess with trying to tighten breech plug. Looks like tang matches top barrel flat. If this were off, Might be different.
- yes, please post photo of breech face. Just to see how bad gunk is.
- I’ve had good service from my L&R locks.
Paul
Paul ~ I'm not too proud to show junky pictures!
The long one is a 'tactical' flashlight {free NRA renewal gift} shining through the touch hole.
The square one is just a LED inspection light shoved down the bore.
Both show lumpy crud. I'll invest in a 'fouling scraper' tip like the ones from Track of the Wolf.
That assumes it is flat/square with the bore which sounds pretty reasonable. Price is right too.
Thanks for your thoughts.
mike
(https://i.ibb.co/7vG3nZr/209-0046.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G7VZW8C)
(https://i.ibb.co/5jJdMvt/209-0040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NNGXVpQ)
That picture looks like a Pink Floyd album cover.
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We don't get that in our flinters. Shiny breech faces after cleaning. A breech plug scraper would be money poorly spent & an article never used.
We remove the barrels for cleaning, pins or keys, no different.
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Mike,
Serious gunk! I don’t think I’ve seen the like. I see soaking and scrubbing in your future. Maybe even pull the breech plug if you are comfortable with doing that. I’m not sure what those little balls of gunk are - look like miniature tar balls.
You’ll be fine. Water and a little elbow grease.
Paul
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Couple other thoughts to your questions
- I wouldn’t mess with trying to tighten breech plug. Looks like tang matches top barrel flat. If this were off, Might be different.
- yes, please post photo of breech face. Just to see how bad gunk is.
- I’ve had good service from my L&R locks.
Paul
Paul ~ I'm not too proud to show junky pictures!
The long one is a 'tactical' flashlight {free NRA renewal gift} shining through the touch hole.
The square one is just a LED inspection light shoved down the bore.
Both show lumpy crud. I'll invest in a 'fouling scraper' tip like the ones from Track of the Wolf.
That assumes it is flat/square with the bore which sounds pretty reasonable. Price is right too.
Thanks for your thoughts.
mike
(https://i.ibb.co/7vG3nZr/209-0046.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G7VZW8C)
(https://i.ibb.co/5jJdMvt/209-0040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NNGXVpQ)
That picture looks like a Pink Floyd album cover.
Excellent start to my day! Not to be off subject, but I vote for "Delicate Sound of Thunder" ...
Maybe I'll join those who name their firearm? Cover is pretty good except for the near guy is sitting kind of awkwardly, and that might spoil my steady hold on the target picture....
OK, back on subject: I'll start with the scraper as soon as it arrives, then go with elbow grease and might even collect the crud particles for intense qualitative analysis by internet experts.
Thanks for the grins.
mike
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(https://i.ibb.co/hgcVRS2/Chamber-Fouling-Scraper-with-debris.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x2Y6SNz)
hosting photo (https://imgbb.com/)
OK, the scraper arrived and went "skritch, skritch, etc." when tried... It came out almost perfectly clean but for a few speckles that looked like pepper.
So I scientifically held the bore vertical as a torpedo level against the range ramrod would indicate, and I dripped maybe a dozen drops of Shooter's Choice Firearms Bore Cleaner ~ which says black powder right on the label... I let it work for a couple hours or so and tried again, producing results as shown. I also made a video of how a toothpick can dig around in the mess. Ugh!
That scraping effort was much easier, the sound much gentler, and the goop was certainly conquered. That was the first real excavation, the black bubbly gunk looked the same but it was becoming flexible and slippery. I repeated the process about six-seven times until the brass 'spade' came out mostly clean, then I wrapped a shooting patch around the end and did more until that also came out almost perfectly clean.
Finished up with dry patches, then lastly with a light coating of Rem oil, and declared ready to store and then shoot.
Yesterday, we went to Jasper-Pulaski to loose some balls.
Unfortunately, my son, grandson and myself arrived about 20 minutes after opening, and there were NO rifle shooting positions open, with people lined up waiting for each one. After 90 minutes, we went to the handgun area and I just made a bunch of noise with my .44 Mag Ruger single action. Back to the rifles, same situation with overcrowding. Gave up and went home.
I hereby suggest my original post/question has run its course.
It also seems the side discussions have also been handled with the finest sense of respect and community I've experienced in many years.
Thank you all!
This gratitude also extends to the moderators who put up with my bumbling attempts to get the fine muzzleloader understood and working again.
If the weather holds, and if anyone is interested, I'll give a shooting report when I'm able...
If not ~ I hope everyone stays healthy and happy.
mike
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Mike- I can see by your muzzle picture, that with just a little bit of work - a minute or two, you can have a perfectly smoothed muzzle that loads
like a dream.
The technique is very simple. Just shove a cloth patch into the bore, down an inch or so is all, to collect stone and steel.
Use 320 emery or wet/dry paper. Push into the bore with the end of your thumb and rotate your thumb and wrist, twisting motion, back and forth, back and forth, then every 15 seconds or
so, rotate the barrel 180 degrees and have at it again. The smoothing process should be accomplished with one piece of paper or emery.
Here's before and after:
(https://i.ibb.co/Lkk3vc3/stretchman-s-muzzle-before.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0DDxQ6x)
(https://i.ibb.co/D1Z49b8/stretchman-s-muzzle-after.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zmzsX57)
(https://i.ibb.co/bQ4wqbJ/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xXn9PFH)
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Wow, ya got me!
I immediately stuck my nose right up to the front face machining marks, and agree it would be easier on the old arthritis if everything was smooth and pretty!
So I took a couple of patches and watched {with feeling} how they conformed and slipped into the bore.
There IS just a slight radius from the flat to the bevel. Yes, it is small but it is quite smooth and does not grab or cause wrinkle-bunching as it gets compressed to a tight fit.
... ... and another, more gentle, transition to the cylinder section on the lands.
I used the "flat" of a wad tip, the squared shape being more drastic a test than my round lead ball.
Frankly, the increased pressure to get it introduced fully into the bore was about the same as that needed to shove it further and further down the length.
This was the case whether I fooled around with dry, spitted, oiled or solvent patches. That was fun.
A secondary factor in my approach is the appearance.
The brown 'rust' bluing {is that even the right term?} is nice on my eyes, and I have no idea how I would repair it if I used abrasive down into base steel.
No, I'm not worrying about a glint out in the field that might alert a deer. I'm just fascinated about how pretty that gun presents itself...
Really I should go for a hyperbolic section "trumpet" shape like the old blunderbuss mouth?
Just kidding, you have given me some good thoughts here!
Thanks for them and that beauty example you used.
mike