AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Clint on October 07, 2020, 04:15:53 AM
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I have just started a new rifle and have the stock profile cut out. I have had my own adventures with ramrod holes and have read many threads of other builders experience with wandering holes. I have always started rifle projects with inletting the barrel, but decided to start this one with the ram rod groove and the hole. One of the reasons for this is that I know that a deep drill will find thin wood and try to escape it’s boring job by popping out into the barrel channel or out the bottom of the fore stock. Lets drill into big wood so that the bit won’t be distracted. The other good reason to drill first is because , on a fully square stock blank, it”s easy to re position the barrel to fit around the ram rod and very difficult to move the hole. I drew the lay out for the barrel on the BOTTOM of the stock and then drew the ram rod groove and hole , starting at the center of the muzzle, and leading off away from the lock side by 3/16 “ at the breech. That way I should be able to get a neater inlet with the lock, without the main spring stopping the ramrod and making a mess of things under the lock. I lined the ram rod groove with a wide flat chisel and cut the groove with a router. Since I haven’t cut the fore end of the stock all the way to the final profile the groove was 7/16” deep. I used a piece of 3/8” round bar, laid in the groove with a 1/4 “ shim on top to target the direction of the hole and to see if I was not aiming towards the underside of the stock by the trigger guard. Once I was happy with my “sight picture”, I drilled the hole. That brings us to the most important part of the process. I would wager that most ramrod drills are badly in need of sharpening. Even or especially brand new twist bits are not really sharp enough to accurately drill holes in wood. Look at the cutting edges of your long drill with a 10X loupe, then compare to one of your sharp rifle stocking chisels. You will probably see a measurable difference. On line instructions and books will out line drill sharpening techniques and this thread is already getting long, so look it up. Don’t stop at the grinder though. Stand the drill up in a vise and HONE the cutting edges. Watch carefully not to roll the edge and keep the clearance angle behind the cutting edge. Hone the back and the inside and keep the length of the cutting edges identical. A truly sharp drip will cut a ram rod hole in a matter of minutes and as long as you clear the chips every 1/2 “ or so . A sharp drill will produce a lot less heat and requires less torque. When you finish the hole, wax the drill before you put it in the rack with the others. The next thing I will describe will be how I settle a barrel into a stock, and we will see exactly where the hole went.
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I watched a you tube video that Josh Wrightsman did. That is how he does it ramrod hole 1st. I have ramrod drills made by a tool and die maker friend. I’ve never had trouble with them knock on wood. I think I’ll still do barrel 1st. Guess change is hard. Hope it works out for you.
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Thanks, Clint - I would have never thought of sharpening that big-a-- drill bit! I do know how to do it and all - built cabinets and boats when half a century younger, but really never gave the sharpness a thought. And I have both hard maple and hard walnut to drill, so I guess it will get sharpened twice!
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I do the bbl first because it stiffens the stock. Once the RR groove is in and pointing in the correct direction all the way to the lower forestock, the drill is lightly clamped in the groove using 2 half dia grooved soft pine blocks.
The drills I use are sharpened to a flat bottom which has a couple of advantages.....first off they can be easily sharpened to avoid dull cutting edges and they also somewhat act like a milling cutter and don't have a tendency to skew off because of grain direction. Particular attention is paid to the relief of the heels of the of the "point"....this caution also pertains to an angled point. Had a couple next door who were trying to install a trailer hitch and saw the wife pushing her husband who in turn was pushing the hole shooter and the drill wasn't "biting" into the bumper. After watching them for awhile, went over and looked at the drill point which didn't have the heels relieved. Took the drill to my grinding wheel, properly sharpened the point and they were amazed at how easily the holes drilled...even in bumper steel which is pretty tough.
I think one of the reasons that RR holes don't end up where intended, is that the bottom of the RR groove goes up adjacent to where the drill enters the lower forestock. I chisel out some wood in this area to make the groove slightly deeper to avoid pushing the drill uphill....afterall, the RR entry pipe is inletted there.
Some use a brad point drill thinking that the "brad" doesn't allow the drill to wander....it might, although a brad drill point is more difficult to sharpen by hand and because of this dull drills are used or new sharp ones are bought.
After correctly drilling 6 RR holes when first starting to build, I then sent the bb/stock ass'y to Miller or Rase for this work. Seeing the Bucks County LRs are supposed to be very slender and petite, the web at the breech should be 1/16" thick or slightly less and Dave Rase could do this consistently. Sorry for the loooong post.....Fred
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Fred has it right! I do virtually the same thing and for the same reason. The only difference is I use bar soap as a drill lube in the ramrod channel. I'm assuming no one is using a brace for drilling any more. My first hole I did with a brace and regretted it for days after. The next hole I drilled using an electric drill, and never used a brace and bit again.
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I too use soap as a lube and also used a hole shooter......thanks for the backup....Fred
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Fred has it right! I do virtually the same thing and for the same reason. The only difference is I use bar soap as a drill lube in the ramrod channel. I'm assuming no one is using a brace for drilling any more. My first hole I did with a brace and regretted it for days after. The next hole I drilled using an electric drill, and never used a brace and bit again.
I used a brace for the last time in 2015. Took me about 3 hrs. I also inlet the barrel by hand.
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I use regular Brad Points with a corded drill motor.
Long ago I discovered that 1/8 IP (x 72") seamless tubing used for Lighting is 3/8" diameter. I grind the shank of the bit to friction fit the tube and solder it to secure. It's a simple matter to replace the bit by heating the solder to melt and pull the bit, then replacing it with a new one. I'm not a High Volume Maker, but in more than 30 years, I haven't needed to re-sharpen or replace... yet.
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I've only had one rod hole disaster and it was with a brand new 1/2" brad point drill bit connected to a steel shaft. the maple was NY sugar maple - extremely hard and dense. I was using the rod pipes to guide the drill. The web of the brad point drill is so thin that it did not go in a straight line, but rather exited through the side of the stock on the offside just forward of the lock. Imagine my dismay!
So I filled the hole with a glued up 1/2" hickory dowel, and had another go at it. This time the bit exited the bottom of the forestock only a few inches from the starting point.
I removed the brad point drill bit at this point and threw it into the trash. I sub'd a new 1/2" twist drill bit, filled the hole again, and cut out the exit holes to receive plugs made from the same piece of wood as the stock. the one on the lefdt side practically disappeared, but the grain in the bottm one took stain a little differently that the stock itself, so it shows as a long football shaped inlay.
But the next time I tried to drill the hole, with the new bit, it went straight and is perfect. I use a 1/2" chucked electric variable speed drill with lots of torque. I too use soap for drill shaft lube.
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I also use a brace. The only power tool I usually use Is a drill press ( I’m missing the advance mechanism for my post drill)
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Friends,
I am "old-school" and build guns as a hobby. I am not interested in paying someone else to have the fun of gunmaking for me. So I let in barrels by hand and I drill my ramrod hole by hand also. I have noting against those who provide the service. For many the service is worth paying for. But I like to have my own fun.
I always let in the barrel, install lugs and drill for temporary pins before drilling the ramrod hole. I agree that the barrel stiffens the stock and makes it far easier to get a nice straight ramrod groove headed where I want it. I let in the ramrod drill with the same care I use for the barrel. I want that ramrod drill to have uniform, consistent, full-length contact with the stock. I then make sure my ramrod drill has adequate draft to the cutting edge. Many folks use the "barrel drills" available from various gun parts catalog outlets for drilling ramrod grooves, but the draft on the cutting edge is either optimized for boring machines or non-existent. I have never found one that was properly ground for wood. Finally, I make wood blocks to hold the drill in the groove without any slop or wiggle but free to turn.
When the ramrod drill is properly let into the stock, properly held in place and the drill is properly ground the hole ends up where you want it. I don't think it matters much what you use to turn the bit. It is important to clear-out the chips so they do not compress between the drill chip groove and the stock. And I lube the drill with bee's wax.
That's what works for me.
Best Regards,
JMC
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Friends,
I am "old-school" and build guns as a hobby. I am not interested in paying someone else to have the fun of gunmaking for me. So I let in barrels by hand and I drill my ramrod hole by hand also. I have noting against those who provide the service. For many the service is worth paying for. But I like to have my own fun.
I always let in the barrel, install lugs and drill for temporary pins before drilling the ramrod hole. I agree that the barrel stiffens the stock and makes it far easier to get a nice straight ramrod groove headed where I want it. I let in the ramrod drill with the same care I use for the barrel. I want that ramrod drill to have uniform, consistent, full-length contact with the stock. I then make sure my ramrod drill has adequate draft to the cutting edge. Many folks use the "barrel drills" available from various gun parts catalog outlets for drilling ramrod grooves, but the draft on the cutting edge is either optimized for boring machines or non-existent. I have never found one that was properly ground for wood. Finally, I make wood blocks to hold the drill in the groove without any slop or wiggle but free to turn.
When the ramrod drill is properly let into the stock, properly held in place and the drill is properly ground the hole ends up where you want it. I don't think it matters much what you use to turn the bit. It is important to clear-out the chips so they do not compress between the drill chip groove and the stock. And I lube the drill with bee's wax.
That's what works for me.
Best Regards,
JMC
I have only drilled 2 ram rod holes and enlarged a couple of others. The rest were done by either Fred Miller or Mark Weader who duplicates all my stock patterns for me. I just wanted to make sure I could do it.
I made my RR drill using a new 3/8 X 18" standard drill bit that I got in a box of stuff I bought at auction. I used my lathe to drill and tap a 1/4" hole in a piece of 3/8" cold rolled steel rod then cut 1/4" threads on the drill. using the lathe insured precision alignment of the two. Then I used high temp silver solder to make sure the joint would hold.
I used the same method as Long John and both holes ran true all the way back just past the breech. I have heard that standard drills would not run true but mine did, maybe luck. I was careful to clean out the wood chips often.
Dennis
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Hi All,
In Long John's post he mentions draft on the cutting edge. My search engine results for variations of draft, drill, cutting edge, wood, brad point turned up nothing about draft of the cutting edge. Please could someone explain, maybe even with pictures what/where the draft is? Thanks in advance for any replies!
John
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I use a corded drill motor, a home grown long bit made from rod stock, with a 3/8 jobber bit welded on the end, and sharpened to a very flat profile. I also use soap as a lube. Have all my ramrod hole come out perfect? No. But most of the failures were pilot error. I seem to have more issues with half stocks than I do fullstocks.
As for boring a ramrod hole with a brace and bit, maybe if I work at a living history sight, and got paid to do it the old way, but not just for fun.
I always bore the ramrod hole first, and then cut the barrel channel. I want the least flexibility in the forearm when I’m boring the ramrod hole, because sometimes if it for some reason It gets off course a little, it can be corrected from the drill motor end with pressure, but if the forearm moves the correction doesn’t happen.
Hungry Horse
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My favorite ramrod drill cuts on outer edge. Hope photo shows that. Made by DGB.
(https://i.ibb.co/4mwjmkK/F98607-C4-6799-4-D7-A-AF62-A19-C1402480-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/smpFm7b)
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Your pic shows exactly how I grind a flat bottom drill "point". Draft isn't the word I would use for backing off the drill point....relief would be more suitable. At any rate, the cutting edge should be ahead of the heel other wise the drill won't cut....this is true of a flat bottom or angled point......Fred
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There are so many tips on drilling a ramrod hole. These guys have done dozens, if not hundreds. My advise is to make d%$# sure you clear the chips. Do it often and do not hurry the process. Ivory soap or beeswax makes a good lubricant. Use it profusely. My two cents. Now I'm broke. :o
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As a young man, when I began my apprenticeship as a Tool & Die maker, one of the first things we had to learn was to sharpen drill bits by hand. Even after all these years I can still sharpen a bit.
I've never heard of "Draft" relating to a drill point either. As Flehto said, the proper term should be "relief", at least that's the only term I've heard.
Another thing that was important was measuring the cutting edges to be sure each flute was the same length. This is important if one wants to drill straight holes.
Once learned the same lessons can be applied to end mills also.
Thinking about it I realize how much I've forgotten over the decades.
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Hey all, I've really enjoyed following this post. I'm not sure that In agree with the people who drill the ramrod hole first, because that dictates all the rest of the geometry of the stock as opposed to everything being located/hung off the barrel. But it also looks like it boils down to how people learned to build a gun. It looks like pretty much everyone drills their ramrod holes the same. I weld a standard drill bit to a mild steel rod of appropriate diameter and length. As stated by several people it is really important to clear the drill bit frequently. Maybe an inch in depth at the most.
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We've drilled thousands of ramrod holes here in our shop. Our stocks don't have much tolerance for deviation in hole location either, so this at times has been a bit of a challange. Here are a few things we've learned:
The ramrod groove must be established such that it properly guides the drill
The start location of the hole is very critical. Some drills can tend to walk
A properly sharpened deep hole configuration is best
A cutting edge that is a few thousandths larger than the shank diameter is good. This helps minimize friction.
Clamping of the drill in the groove must be done carefully. You don't want much force on the drill shank.
We've made our latest drills out of carbide (the length that enters the stock). This is beneficial in that the tip stays sharper and carbide is many times stiffer than steel which leads to less deviation.
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Those of you who drill first: How do you determine where the hole ended up?
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Reading here on everyone's post on ramrod drilling, I have the thought of making me a new ramrod hole drill with a center cutting four flute carbide inmill. I have been looking at a few and don't know what length I should go with. I haven't ordered one yet, but here is one I saw on eBay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-8-dia-CARBIDE-EXTRA-EXTRA-LONG-7-long-end-mill-770-4357-FREESHIP/163050485067?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
What are your thoughts on this one? Would this make a good ramrod drill? I think it would stay sharp for a long time.
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Double X, most ramrod drills that I have seen are 48" long. But come to think on it, the RR drill I have for pistols is only 12".
You could probably use a length of drill rod (McMasters-Carr or other supplier) and weld your endmill bit onto the drill rod for whatever length you plan to drill. You could either weld or silver solder the joint. Last one of those that I did, I used a piece of angle iron steel, with a small cut-out where I silver-soldered it, thus keeping all aligned properly.
I would think that a 4-blade endmill would do a proper job, as long as you clear ships very frequently.
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Reading here on everyone's post on ramrod drilling, I have the thought of making me a new ramrod hole drill with a center cutting four flute carbide inmill. I have been looking at a few and don't know what length I should go with. I haven't ordered one yet, but here is one I saw on eBay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-8-dia-CARBIDE-EXTRA-EXTRA-LONG-7-long-end-mill-770-4357-FREESHIP/163050485067?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
What are your thoughts on this one? Would this make a good ramrod drill? I think it would stay sharp for a long time.
I would not think it would drill properly. I have used two flute end mills to make shallow hole in wood with good success but have not had any luck with 4 flute. Can't imagine it would drill a deep RR hole.
Dennis
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I think you have two potential problems. First the flutes are not that deep and I think you will have a problem of not clearing the chips and binding the cutter in the hole. This would lead to the second problem. Carbide end mills are very hard and brittle. What will you do if it breaks in the hole?
Think again and wait for comments from other machinists and toolmakers on this board.
Ken
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I plan to use a 48" rod and attach the end mill to it in a piece of angle as Craig said. This is how I have did all my ramrod drills in the past. The fact that carbide is apt to break was my concern about what length to purchase as the one that is attached to my post is 7" long, I believe it has 4" of flute on it for pulling out chips and could possibly shorten up the shank a little bit. Also, some of these end mills are not center cutting end mills. This one is and my cousin has experimented with some of these and he also has experimented with deep hole drills such as a gun drill.
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XX, I'd go for it and see what happens. Let us know, it's an interesting idea. You should be able to feel when the flutes are starting to load up. It's not necessary to use drill rod for extending the bit. In a past life I used to weld up 1/2" cobalt drills on to the ends of 6' X 1/2" steel rod to make drill bits for 12' diameter heat exchanger wheels. We rarely had drill bits snap off inspite of drilling through a combination 10ga galv. steel, corrugated aluminum, and 1/2" wall steel pipe.
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Guys,
A great help in locating the end of the ramrod hole is to keep the deep drill bit at the bottom of the hole, then use a house magnetic stud finder to find the exact location of the end of the drill bit at the breech end. Really simple.
Jim
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One last bit to add on my part. It is relatively simple to remove a broken bit from a ramrod hole. There's several methods to locate the broken piece. I've never located a bit with a stud finder as Jim suggests, but it is a really dandy idea. One of the advantages of drilling the ramrod hole after the barrel is inlet is that it's pretty simple to remove the broken bit through the bottom of the barrel channel. Any holes and repairs will not be seen.
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I wouldn't use an endmill. The start of the hole is very critical and an endmill will tend to walk around since it has no point. I would suggest a single flute gundrill geometry or a straight flute (two flute) drill. Here are examples from McMaster https://www.mcmaster.com/level-switches/material~carbide/drill-bits-for-hardened-steel/ These, of course, would need to be attached to another rod.
Other set-ups may work, but in my expereince are probably not as good.
Jim
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If I were to make a suggestion it would sound just like Jim Kibler's Clear chips very often and keep it lubed with soap.
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I stopped using ANY sort of twist drill for ANY deep hole in wood decades ago.
They simply don't run straight in wood or metal in a hole that is very deep.
Same as gun drills for a gun drill but gun drills have a bit brazed to the end of a tube with a full length V groove pressed in to match the groove in the bit. The bit has a hole and the tube supplies pressurized cutting oil to the working end. These were made from hardware store grade rod and will do several stocks before needing to be sharpened. Casehardening keeps they sharp even longer. Once started straight the never vary and can be aimed to give more mainspring clearance at the lock mortise when using small barrels. They don't break off either.
Link is to a die drill at MSC that could be welded to a shaft. Though I would drill the shaft then turn the shank of the bit to fit then put flux and brass in the hole before sliding them together. Then heat with the bit end down the promote bonding. Industry uses this design for things besides gun drills when runout is not an option.
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/71258248
(https://i.ibb.co/zG52Gmg/DD5659-CD-049-D-433-C-AD35-3-F41-EB4-D956-A-1-105-c.jpg) (https://ibb.co/D5bM51F)
(https://i.ibb.co/H7jjxJB/00-F655-B9-F43-E-4415-B09-E-EC5774-BFDDAC-1-105-c.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gyxxPnm)
(https://i.ibb.co/94gnSyw/2972494-B-5255-420-F-BA9-B-3-C6-E5-D659-F61-1-105-c.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wz5njBD)
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These got misplaced when I moves and got a little rusty.
Dan
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Attaching the drill to a length of same size round stock is important to eliminate "run out". I start w/ a length of drill rod, face one end, center drill using the lathe's tailstock , then use a drill that's 1/64" undersize and finish w/ a reamer.
An inch or so of the drill shank is turned down in a lathe and is a light press fit w/ the hole in the drill rod. Both the outer edge of the drill rod and the shoulder of the drill have a 1/32" chamfer which accepts the high temp silver solder which holds the 2 together. The excess silver solder is filed flush and polished. Have checked the "runout" of these finished RR drills and it was w/in a .001.
After building one LR and using a RR drill as described above w/ a flat bottom "point", the drilled hole came out exactly as planned. Some weeks later I visited Fred Miller and looked at his RR drills and they all had flat bottom "points"...same as mine. Fred had drilled 1000s of RR holes w/ these drills.
As was mentioned, some 4 fluted end mills have a center relief which doesn't cut, have limited chip room and seeing the end mill's shank is hard, an inch or so has to be ground down accurately to fit into the hole in the drill rod. A butt attachment of the drill or endmill to the drill rod w/ weld or high temp silver requires a perfect alignment which can be difficult to achieve. I've never used an endmill and prefer juts a twist drill w/ a flat bottom "point" which has plenty of room for chips. Never used a "store bought" RR drill, but if I had , the runout would have been checked.
My flat bottom drills don't have a "point" and have always started correctly as evidenced by the final location of the RR holes. There are many different types of RR drills and some do the job and some others don't.....Fred
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As I prepare for my first build from a blank I have been reading everything I can find on "drilling the RR" hole. I have not seen any reference to Track's rr hole bits.I have to assume they are not of adequate quality. It appears there is a need for a sharp good quality bit. It appears that most builders creat their own or have someone make one for them. Many of us do not have the ability or equipment to create our own tools.Is there no one out there who makes a good quality drill bit for this purpose?
Old Dog
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After some consideration and reading everything about ramrod drills, I think I will go with DPHARISS. His idea of using a die drill sounds like a good idea. My cousin who is a machinist has been experimenting with this. He thinks that is the way to go also. I too have a machinist background and I have a lathe to machine the ends for brazing and I will probably order one of these from MSC. My concern with the die drill is its ability to pull out the chips adequately. I do like the idea of it being carbide tipped. I know they use this style of drill bit for boring gun barrels. Surely it would make a good ramrod drill.
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Same consideration and question as Old Dog. R. Mann
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I have a 3/8 ramrod hole drill I got from TOTW over 30 yrs ago. I have used it several times without any problems.