AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Contemporary Longrifle Collecting => Topic started by: Rawhide Rick on November 23, 2020, 05:07:38 AM

Title: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Rawhide Rick on November 23, 2020, 05:07:38 AM
The pics say more than I can.  What I’m wondering is would this be a one off built by the guys named on the bottom flat, or did they work for a shop that built Hawkins?  Seems odd that a shop building multiple guns would use components like Wm Large barrels and Roller locks, but I’ve not heard of either of the names on the bottom flat.  Can someone shed some light on where the gun may have originated or who the 2 builders are?

I bought this gun several years ago at an auction in a small town in way upstate NY.
(https://i.ibb.co/fY4grWG/F7-FE1263-984-B-4-D2-E-B4-F7-A95-A41-A04-D10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QFrgYVj)

(https://i.ibb.co/wLQSMd0/05-A01-BCB-3266-4-E6-F-9-AE3-CEAF415-A3-BCF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZJgBWfL)

(https://i.ibb.co/HT8M9zv/D7-DF7322-0-EF6-4659-91-A9-721-C294-C741-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XxRdGsB)

(https://i.ibb.co/P5wBJ78/52325929-40-A0-4607-8-FAC-69-A901-DB926-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Cnhx4kF)

(https://i.ibb.co/WBfc6Pt/31-EECDB3-DAE3-4-A4-C-9-B21-02407-EECED5-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0YrfcFt)

(https://i.ibb.co/pdj76k9/2-A366554-DBCA-462-D-A5-C9-AC6308-E2225-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6F0Mcqf)

(https://i.ibb.co/7SNJhCB/B2-C041-D0-C545-415-A-B3-D6-2-D510-BD41-DBA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rQfG90q)

(https://i.ibb.co/2czmg7d/BB4323-E6-586-D-451-F-881-D-6-B0-A05-E19-D84.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5sQtBWL)

(https://i.ibb.co/Mk5qLW8/5-D918-D80-48-E2-46-D9-81-B4-EE16-C9-B71-D5-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5hxqVtY)

(https://i.ibb.co/tCwM6ns/57100-BA7-8487-4-A18-815-B-3817538-CE41-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5cXW3C8)

(https://i.ibb.co/hZ342Dv/7-C3-A3-C17-D4-B0-495-D-8-BAB-EE4-C35-D4-EAF1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xfxBzJQ)

(https://i.ibb.co/sVfWbpL/FD899-E1-D-E94-D-40-B4-ADA4-DF112-D501519.jpg) (https://ibb.co/crBYkKz)

(https://i.ibb.co/LSRpMBw/0751594-A-73-F9-4-C4-D-99-C4-4-B4609-D01-F37.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5T4cdCD)
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Kevin on November 23, 2020, 05:53:18 AM
Greetings Rick,

Not sure if this is your "T. Nixon" but I recalled a Tom Nixon involved in gun building.  I dropped "Tom Nixon gunsmith" into a search engine and various results turned up.  Some were NSSA-related and another was from a past sale of a Tom Nixon rifle on Dixie Guns Works website.

Might be a place to start,
Kevin
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Rawhide Rick on November 23, 2020, 06:16:04 AM
I did some searching and never came up with anything that looked good.  Thought maybe someone might know one or both of these guys.  The gun is well built so I doubt it’s their first gun or collaboration.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: alyce-james on November 23, 2020, 06:24:33 AM
Sir; thanks for sharing this time capsule of two people, a barrel maker and a lock maker, we all know of their work. AJ.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Bob Roller on November 23, 2020, 07:52:45 PM
Tom Nixon is an old friend of many years but I have no idea about Mr.Adkins.
He may have been the first owner of this rifle and I know Tom worked alone
as do I.Tom Nixon's reputation as a gun maker will stand up to the best of them
and for years he specialized in Civil War reproductions that are highly sought after.
Tom used my locks on almost every Hawken type and for long fullstock rifles as well,
He used mostly my flintlocks and double set triggers on these.
The gun shown here is typical of Tom Nixon's work and I am glad to see it displayed
on this forum.
Tom Nixon lives about 10 miles South of me in Wayne County WV and no longer has a
land line phone number and I don't know if he is still active in gunmaking or not.
Bob Roller

I haven't seen Tom Nixon for a while but yesterday I saw the death notice for his wife
of many years.Ethel Jean Nixon on 4-15-2021
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Daryl on November 23, 2020, 08:35:41 PM
Nice "old" rifle with GREAT parts. 

Good anecdotal post, Bob. We need those for perspective.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Rawhide Rick on November 24, 2020, 03:07:16 AM
Thank you for the input guys.  I’m glad there is a little history for this gun.  I’ve never shot it and was hesitant to take it apart, for fear of scratching something.  It’s a display piece for now, but may see the range some day.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Hillbilly Delux on November 24, 2020, 02:06:59 PM
We are so fortunate to have legends and scholars of the rifle world to lead us in preserving the rifles we are so endeared to.  Maybe one day I'll try my hand at reproducing one.  Rawhide, how does it shoot?
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Rawhide Rick on November 25, 2020, 04:33:35 AM
I’ve never shot it.  I have several guns that I shoot, just not this one, I can’t bring myself to get it dirty.  Maybe someday.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Bob Roller on November 25, 2020, 05:08:31 PM
I’ve never shot it.  I have several guns that I shoot, just not this one, I can’t bring myself to get it dirty.  Maybe someday.

Take it out and shoot it.Cleaning is not hard and I think it will be a good match or hunting rifle.
The parts are considered adequate for use so enjoy the thing.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Rawhide Rick on November 26, 2020, 06:37:09 AM
Much too nice to knock around the woods with.  I’ll shoot it at some point, maybe after this COVID thing thing calms down and our local matches start up again.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Bob Roller on November 26, 2020, 04:46:24 PM
My own Hawken build was finished and tested 53 years ago today,'
I only made one of these and they are not an easy pattern to copy.
My rifle had my lock and triggers and a Bill Large barrel that was
54 caliber and 1and1/8 by 34 with a solid breech and tang
which was a booger to inlet.Tom Dawson made a butt plate for me
and the trigger guard came from lockmaker Harold Robbins.
This interest in the Hawken rifles continues thru the present day and
I hope someone will start making better locks for them,
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Rawhide Rick on November 26, 2020, 05:31:28 PM
That 54 cal sounds like a hefty gun, as is mine.  My pics don’t do the rifle justice, it’s a beautiful piece of maple, a barrel that I couldn’t replace, and a lock that many consider to be about as good as can be had anywhere.  It’s the only Hawken I have that is meant to closely match the originals.  These factors have made me hesitant to take it off the wall.

I know the builders like these guns to be used, but I’ll wait just a little longer.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: mountainman70 on November 26, 2020, 05:43:57 PM
Hi Rick and welcome to the forum. Beautiful Hawken ya got there.
I know how you feel about shooting it.
I have a long rifle made by Len Meadows back in early 70s that has the Roller lock and Bob Paris barrel.
I finally took him out to our range and let others shoot him, and on our woods walk.
The old boy performed well.
You will know when you want to shoot it. Maybe not.
Appreciate your posts and pics.
Have a wunnerful Thanksgiving
Best regards Dave  8) 8)
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Rawhide Rick on November 27, 2020, 04:56:11 AM
I appreciate the encouragement.  When/if it happens, ain’t nobody else shooting it.  And it may only be a one time thing.  Hope that doesn’t offend anyone.  I’ll pass it on to one of my sons, maybe they will take it shooting.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: snapper on November 27, 2020, 05:42:26 AM
It is your rifle, do with it as you please.

I would shoot it. ;D


Fleener
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: oldtravler61 on November 28, 2020, 06:55:57 PM
   Rawhide IT'S your gun do what the want.  Me I like to shoot all my guns. That's just me..I'm not a collector by any means.
  But like the saying goes. "" Different strokes for Different folks   
  Enjoy your gun...   Oldtravler
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: smylee grouch on November 29, 2020, 09:35:33 AM
Shoot it. Work up a good load for it and save the best group target for posterity. Keep it clean and you wont hurt it one bit. It was built with great parts by a real craftsman and was made to be a good shooter. Only use real black powder and no plastic wad patches. Enjoy it, brag about it, show it off, take a bunch of pictures of it, and had it down to someone who will do the same. Just my very humble opinion.  :)
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Rawhide Rick on November 30, 2020, 06:57:36 PM
It seems there are a lot of votes for shooting it. So....
Upstate NY weather is nasty now and will be for a few months, but I’ll take it to the range in the spring and give it a go.  Anything impressive will be in photos on this post.  It’ll probably shoot better that me.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on November 30, 2020, 08:12:56 PM
RR:  If you are capable of cleaning the rifle properly, shooting it will definitely not hurt it one bit.  It was made to be shot.  N'uff said.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Wvwoods on February 05, 2021, 05:41:53 PM
I know that there was a gunsmith active in the Ashland Kentucky area in that time frame ( very near too Mr Large and Mr Nixon's location).....the gentlemans last name was Adkins, I don't recall his first name. He done some reblue work for me. He sporterized many Mauser rifles in that area. He done very nice work....he always caught rain water in a barrel for his reblue tanks. I bet that might be your guy.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: jbigley on February 05, 2021, 08:12:59 PM
RR: It was made to be shot.  N'uff said.
Agreed. Thumbs up!!
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Rawhide Rick on February 10, 2021, 05:45:46 AM
Waiting for spring thaw or something better than single digits on the thermometer, and less snow.  It will visit the range this spring.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: HughMan on March 07, 2021, 07:33:10 PM
Absolutely gorgeous. Display it or shoot it, it's your rifle and you're fortunate to have it.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Dphariss on March 16, 2021, 08:17:54 PM
As Taylor said if you clean it properly and use only blackpowder shooting will not hurt it.
It was not built to hang on the wall.

Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Jeff Murray on March 17, 2021, 09:45:34 PM
A target shot from the rifle with good results and framed really adds a nice touch to the display.  That way you enjoy the best of both worlds.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Rawhide Rick on May 03, 2021, 05:26:45 AM
I had hoped to post an update from the range today.  Weather was great this morning, I had all the gear there, or so I thought.  When I bought this gun at an auction several years ago, it was listed as a 50 cal Hawken.  It looked like a 50 cal, but the barrel isn’t marked. 

Turns out, it’s not a 50 cal and it’s not a 45 cal, so no shots were fired from it today.   I don’t even have round balls that will fit the bore.  As near as I can tell, it’s a 48 cal.  Placed an order tonight and will hopefully have at it next weekend, if the weather and the black flies cooperate.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Bob Roller on May 03, 2021, 03:36:37 PM
This is an uncommon barrel caliber that Bill Large made and it is a 47 caliber.
Measure the bore accurately across the lands or find someone who can.
If I had it here I would use an expanding gauge.Maybe there is a machinist
or a shop in your area that can help you.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: smylee grouch on May 03, 2021, 05:28:22 PM
You could drop a brass rod down the oiled bore, then drive
an over sized lead ball into the muzzle, then upend the barrel and the brass rod will drive the ball out so you can measure it.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Rawhide Rick on May 04, 2021, 12:59:26 PM
I measured as best I could with calipers and came up with about .475 but I might have been in to the grooves .  I don’t have a bore gauge or gauge pins, so that was all I could manage.  I did foolishly pass on a set of about 100 gauge pins at an auction a few weeks ago, kinda kicking myself now.

I will assume it is 47 cal, and thank you for the input Mr Roller.  Curious as to why Mr. Large would make that caliber barrel?  There must have been a reason.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Bob Roller on May 04, 2021, 05:05:20 PM
The reason was customer requests.Some wanted a bigger hall than a 45 but smaller
that a 50 so the 47 was what happened.I reamed some of these but don't recall ever
measuring one.These barrels we made during the last years of Bill's career and they are
NOT numerous and one breeched for a Hawken is a very rare one.
Here is another way to gauge it. A 29/64 drill is 453 and a 15/32 will be close to that
bore size.Try it and see and then let us know.
Bob Roller 



Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Seth Isaacson on May 05, 2021, 12:00:12 AM
.465 balls can be a bit hard to find but Track of the Wolf carries them usually. I use them with a .015 patch in my .47 caliber rifle.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Rawhide Rick on May 05, 2021, 03:28:03 AM
I ordered the 465 balls from track a couple days ago.  I’ll be digging through drill bits and readers tomorrow to see if I can find the right size.

Thank you again for the input.  I like the idea of having such a rare item.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Daryl on May 06, 2021, 06:54:44 AM
Did I miss something - right sized drill bits - for what?
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Bob Roller on May 06, 2021, 07:00:47 PM
Daryl,
In the absence of a proper gauge the shanks of drill bits can be used to give
an approximate reading in determining a hole size.Like many older machinists
I have the tendency to assume that everyone has a shop with a wide assortment
of measuring tools but reality says this is not the case so I and others like me
tend to go to the most basic of hole gauges,the drill bit.These drill come in metric
and decimal,letter, number sizes and they are helpful in the absence of a better way.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Rawhide Rick on May 07, 2021, 02:08:35 AM
I hope nobody got too excited about the possible caliber.  29/64 drill won’t quite fit.  So I paid careful attention to stay on the lands and measured with a better caliper, then checked that with a starret micrometer and got .4518.  My previous measurement must have slipped in to one of the grooves which seem quite deep.  Sorry for the confusion.

The good news is, if I get my yard work and honey do list completed this weekend, I may get to shoot it.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Daryl on May 07, 2021, 07:58:41 PM
Tks Bob.  I've never had to use drills for measuring, if why I was questioning that drills.
.451" bore makes it very easy. .445" ball mould, for many of us.  .440" for others.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Herb on May 09, 2021, 05:26:56 AM
Ramrod Rick, you can make a bore gauge to measure it.  These are 7.62x54R cases.  Fit the mouth over a rod tip, opening up the mouth if need be.  Tap onto a drill bit butt.  Drill the primer pocket out to accept an 8x32 or 10x32 short screw (whichever fits your rod tip).  This fastens the gauge onto your rod so you don't lose it in the bore.  The case rim is filed down to just enter the bore.  You can chuck the case in your drill and hold a file against it to reduce it until it will almost enter the bore.  Check for roundness with your Starrett.   File down the high spots. Blacken the rim to see where to file.  Finally you can gently push the gauge through your bore.  It will find rough or high spots.  Measure the rim for the bore interior size.
(https://i.ibb.co/7GJ2Zqz/54-bore-gauges.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xMSJBNs)

For .45 caliber, a .30-30 case is just the right size.
(https://i.ibb.co/QrrZGqN/Case-gauges-40-45-58.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XSS9Tds)
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: smylee grouch on May 09, 2021, 06:25:05 AM
Good tip Herb. That's real gun smithing, thinking on your feet.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Bob Roller on May 10, 2021, 02:39:02 AM
I wouldn't think of this in a hundred years.I use Starret expanding hole gauges or
"snap"gauges also called telescoping gauges and a micrometer with a Vernier scale.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: 45-110 on May 10, 2021, 02:58:22 AM
A set of used Starrett snap gages are on ebay all the time for a reasonable amount. If you play with gun building you deserve a set.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Daryl on May 10, 2021, 03:18:43 AM
I wouldn't think of this in a hundred years.I use Starret expanding hole gauges or
"snap"gauges also called telescoping gauges and a micrometer with a Vernier scale.
Bob Roller

I have a set of Starret Expanding Hole Gauges that Dad used, Bob. Wonderful pieces of kit.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: Rawhide Rick on May 12, 2021, 12:51:17 AM
Those gauges are a good idea.  I would like a set of starret bore gauges but can’t justify the expense.  Everything I have now that is starret, brown n sharp etc. was acquired at an auction for not much money.

I think the only rimmed brass I have is 38 spl at the moment.  But the might work.
Title: Re: Hawken style rifle
Post by: oldarcher on August 28, 2021, 02:58:50 AM
Hey Rawhide, Shoot the rifle, that's what they were made for. I believe that Bill Large would say the same thing, I don't believe he made quality Barrels to hang on a wall. I think Bob Roller will say "shoot it".  Don't let this treasure go unappreciated, enjoy it, it's yours to shoot and treasure.
I shot a GRRW Hawken for 30 years and it was as good after thousands of shots as it was when new. Quality like Large and Roller age very well when used and taken care of.