AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Ats5331 on November 29, 2020, 03:21:54 AM

Title: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Ats5331 on November 29, 2020, 03:21:54 AM: I know that this has been asked before on the forum, but given that was years back, I would like to ask again..

Does anyone have any details surrounding the famous Killdeer Rifle used by DDL in the Last of the Mohicans movie?

I know that Wayne Watson made it, that it had a 50" barrel, and Lehigh esque stock. I also found that Knob Mountain Muzzleloading carries the pattern for it on their site.

Reading the forum post from years ago, it seems like there is some solid knowledge on the rifle here.

Anybody have opinions on the furniture used for the rifle? Or just general thoughts?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Top Jaw on November 29, 2020, 02:59:14 PM: I read somewhere that Director Michael Mann insisted on this rifle style even though it wasn’t period correct. And that he wanted the stripes on the curly maple to be at a specific angle, almost a 45° angle on the gun. So Wayne Watson had to waste a whole board to get a blank cut with the stripes at such an odd angle. I also seem to remember he had to make two of these guns. One as a back up in case damage occurred, it wouldn’t stop production. That’s what I THINK I remember about it.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Pukka Bundook on November 29, 2020, 05:37:01 PM: I heard from Frank House, that three rifles were made before Michael Mann was satisfied.

As a by -the -way, Frank said when he made the rifle for Mel Gibson in "The Patriot", he said he wanted three times the price that Wayne was asking, but that he'd get it right first time!
It was not Wayne's fault that it took more than one try. Michael Mann wanted something never seen at that time in history.
A rubber copy was also made, for rough usage in some scenes. (I think this was from a Mark Baker article in Muzzle-loader magazine)
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Not English on November 30, 2020, 05:00:57 AM: It seems to me that the furniture was steel and the rifle was very lightly colored. I remember the same Mark Baker article. My memory may very well be wrong.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: J. Talbert on November 30, 2020, 07:40:55 AM: IIRC
John Bivins originally built two matching rifles for the movie, more in the style of Christian’s Spring (named Amos and Andy), but they didn’t fulfill the director’s expectation and were rejected in favor of the much longer Wayne Watson creation.
Curiously one of the Bivins guns was for sale at Friendship IN a number of years ago, though it was at some one’s booth at the flea market not actually at the NMLRA.
At one time Jim Chambers had the original full scale drawings of the Bivins guns... probably still does.

Jeff
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Lucky R A on November 30, 2020, 03:24:38 PM: You should contact Fred Miller, Fred sold his business to Dave Keck, so that is where Dave got the pattern for the Killdeer rifle. Fred did the barrel inlet etc. for Wayne when the gun was built. I have talked to Fred about this a number of times. He knows many of the in and outs of the project.
Fred has pretty much retired from the inletting business per his agreement with Dave Keck. He loves to talk about the guns that he has had a hand in. PM me and I will give you Fred's contact #.
Ron
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Ats5331 on December 01, 2020, 05:24:20 AM: Has anyone ever tried duplicating the Killdeer?
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Mike Brooks on December 01, 2020, 05:54:10 PM: Quote from: Ats5331 on December 01, 2020, 05:24:20 AM
Has anyone ever tried duplicating the Killdeer?
I wouldn't waste my time.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: rich pierce on December 01, 2020, 06:19:22 PM: Quote from: Mike Brooks on December 01, 2020, 05:54:10 PM
Quote from: Ats5331 on December 01, 2020, 05:24:20 AM
Has anyone ever tried duplicating the Killdeer?
I wouldn't waste my time.

I agree but I guess if someone has the pattern there must be some demand. Whatever floats yer boat I guess. I’m going to assume that whoever is interested in building one understands it’s a Hollywood prop that doesn’t resemble anything of the period.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Jim Chambers on December 01, 2020, 07:33:16 PM: Jeff is correct. Bivins, Bob Harn, Mike Ehinger, and I built the two original Killdeer rifles for the movie using my Edward Marshall kit as a basis. Michael Mann decided they were not long enough for his taste and had the other rifles made. As the movie props were being sold Scott Ellis managed to buy one of the two Bivins rifles for less than half what the movie had paid us for them. That rifle passed thru several hands including whoever had it at the Friendship flea market. It ended up in the Bob Roughton collection and now has been donated to the CLA for a future auction. The second Bivins rifle was hanging in some movie executive's office in CA the last I heard of it. Who knows where it is now.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: BJH on December 01, 2020, 07:40:57 PM: The barrel really wasn’t quite 50 inches as Getz’s tooling couldn’t make it that long. It had a chambered breech extension. Think Nock breech. I built one stand off copy for a customer who was a aficionado of the movie and the gun. It was loosely based on a Jacob Dubbs butt stock relic. The butt plate was a Lancaster pattern in steel along with the guard as was the movie gun. The rest of the furniture was hand made. Plus some other movie details. Due to good word of mouth from him I wound up building a few more guns for some of his friends. One was a more correct Jacob Dubbs with brass hardware from Larry Zornes. BJH

I was trying to stay out of this conversation as I have no desire to build another copy of the movie gun.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Ats5331 on December 01, 2020, 10:18:06 PM: Interesting stuff. While knowing it was not accurate to the time period the movie was set in, I have always thought it wasn’t a bad looking rifle. I like the Lehigh school and Roman nose on rifles.

Amazing that Michael Mann would turn hand made rifles down from experts in the field...

Would be interesting to have the pictures to compare all the different “models” produced for the movie (Used or not)
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Jim Chambers on December 01, 2020, 10:34:22 PM: The movie company had a reputation for not paying for services around town. When we finished the two rifles I called Michael Mann, told him John Bivins and I would be hand delivering the rifles, and to have a check ready for us to pick up. They paid $12,000 each for the rifles......and then didn't use them at all. Go figure. Later, I made two Lancaster rifles for the movie. I believe Uncus carried one of those rifles in the movie.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: fahnenschmied on December 03, 2020, 12:05:48 AM: My first day being an extra on this movie I handled it. It was near dark, and I no longer remember the particulars of the fittings or materials - but some fellow leaned up a rifle on the back of some trailer, and it fell with a thwack on the ground. I picked it up, looked it over, saw it wasn't some off the shelf rifle but a nicely built custom long rifle. I caught up to the fella and told him something on the lines of "Hey man, this rifle is worth more than you are - you better take better care of it". He apologized and thanked me for me looking after it. My friend was a little shocked - "don't you know who that is?" and I think I replied with a "Some dumbass that doesn't know how to treat a rifle" - along those lines. "Well, thats Daniel Day Lewis". Who the heck is he? "Oh, just the star of the show". I guess I had seen him in "A room with a View" some years before but didn't recognize him. I remember some Northwest guns in the hands of the natives that were just assembled kits - no shaping, or finish, just bare wood with overlength pins hanging out of the stocks. Good times.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Vaquero on December 03, 2020, 02:52:41 AM: When Wayne Watson used to live in Ocala, I visited him a number of times. He still had the rough wooden rifle that he sent in to Mann for approval. I remember i loved how it felt when i shouldered it.

Though Wayne had a movie poster in his shop, I remembered he really wasn’t proud of the rifle. For someone who enjoyed making bench copies of Kuntz’s, he didn’t even sign the top flat of the two rifles (I think he did on the bottom of the barrel). Also as mentioned, he hated it was a “Frankenstein” of a gun, with mismatched furniture, too small a lock (small siler?) to make the gun look longer, etc.

Mr. Watson said the barrel was 50 inches (or close), by Don Getz, .50 caliber.

As a high schooler who finally got to handle a flintlock for the first time, I was a little in awe to say the least. Though I found out the rifle was as incorrect as possible, handling the rough copy and the couple of bench copies of Kuntz and Rupp he had on hand, I have been in love with the Lehigh school ever since.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Ats5331 on December 03, 2020, 04:23:44 AM: Wow, guys this is all awesome stuff.

Think it’s always neat to hear stories, get info, etc. about this kind of stuff.

The movie is actually what got me interested in Flintlocks (and the fact my father collects). It lead me down the street to my WWII veteran neighbor, who became my mentor/teacher in woodworking, riflemaking, wood carving etc.

Unfortunately he passed away 6 years ago now, really wish I could have showed him this forum and thread, as we both loved the rifle from the film.

Always had it in the back of my mind to make a rifle similar to the Killdeer ever since..
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Dphariss on December 10, 2020, 04:56:00 PM: Quote from: Mike Brooks on December 01, 2020, 05:54:10 PM
Quote from: Ats5331 on December 01, 2020, 05:24:20 AM
Has anyone ever tried duplicating the Killdeer?
I wouldn't waste my time.

Thank you Mike Brooks.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Elnathan on December 11, 2020, 06:38:22 AM: In fairness to Mann, in the books Killdeer is noted as being an exceptionally long rifle, even by the standards of a later day, to the point that Hawkeye is actually named by his enemies after the length of his rifle. Thus, I don't think that a shorter barrel would have worked from a storytelling point of view (though considering what Mann did the the rest of the story, that seems a mere quibble.... ::)

Going from memory, Killdeer is never actually described in Last of the Mohicans, but from bits in The Pioneers and The Deerslayer indicate that it was around six feet long overall, had a brass box and and a bore around 30 to the pound (in the early 1790s, after about fifty years of active service and several freshings-out), and had a few bits of silver inlayed but was overall a fairly plain piece. When Judith Hutter gave it to Natty in 1745, it had been in her father's possession long enough to have already won a reputation as an exceptionally well-made and accurate piece, which suggests it wasn't built much later than 1740.

Cooper was obviously thinking of a Golden Age rifle, which makes sense given that most of the above comes from the first book he wrote set in 1793, in which Natty is just an old hunter meant to represent the old frontier giving way to the forces of civilization - Natty kind of stole the show, so to speak, and ended up a recurring character in books set in earlier periods. Killdeer kind of naturally tagged along, and became a character in its own right, out of place from its original description. However, one important part of Killdeer's description that tends to get overlooked is that it was never intended to by a typical Kentucky rifle, just as Natty is not a typical frontiersman (as a matter of fact, most of Cooper's frontiersmen are not very sympathetic characters at all) - Killdeer is long, lean, rather plain if not homely, but of exceptional quality where it counts, just as Natty himself is rather homely and often pretty rough in manner, but also a shining example of untutored virtue free from the artifices of civilization. A unique weapon for a unique man.

I kind of want to make an interpretation of Killdeer someday: not the movie version, which doesn't appeal to me, but a gun that is historically plausible but fits the spirit of Cooper's vision if not the literal description - long heavy barrel (possibly off a fine German bench-rest rifle, which would explain the longer length and superior workmanship, though if one of those might come light enough to be used as an ordinary rifle by a tall, strong man like Natty I don't know), high-end lock with springs "like a wolf trap," but stocked here in America in sugar maple with plain, unfussy lines and just a bit of carving in a provincial manner.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: heinz on December 13, 2020, 12:20:26 AM: Elnathan, nicely stated and a good evaluation of Natty Bumpo and Killdeer.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: blienemann on December 13, 2020, 07:26:32 AM: Elnathan, thanks for the overview, and for pointing out that our fictional La Longue Carabine's rifle was made around 1740. In Moravian Gunmaking II, Caspar Wistar immigrated from Germany to Philadelphia in 1717, and imported many rifles over the following decades. He was constantly asking his contacts back in Germany for longer rifles, as that was what was wanted here in the colonies - 3 ft 3" or 4" barrels at least, or longer if possible. In one 1730's letter he received a rifle with a 3' 9" or 45" barrel, and I have been told by another researcher that he received several rifles with 4' or 48" barrels.

Almost everything previously written talks about the short Jaeger, and often calls them heavy or clumsy. That is hard to overcome. But common French and English Indian trade guns and military arms of the period had standardized around 46" barrels (though lighter and smooth), so long barrels were certainly familiar. Early trade rifles from England may have had long barrels.

The Edward Marshall rifle is an important early rifle, and was a great choice for a rifle for the story and movie. It is a real example, and dates to the right time. But research now shows that longer barreled rifles did come into the country, and I would guess they were made here as well, since that is what people here wanted, according to Wistar. They probably did not resemble a ca 1800 Lehigh style, but were probably more like the Marshall rifle, or several early Bucks County looking rifles that still exist. Lancaster smiths were stocking rifles for the Indian trade, and more were imported.

Hopefully we will continue learning, and perhaps find an early example of two of rifles with longer barrels. It is fun to romanticize in the meantime. Bob
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: blienemann on December 14, 2020, 01:03:22 AM: Jim, we would enjoy seeing photos of the two rifles your very talented cartel made for the movie. Elnathan, for some examples, look around for "early" styles by contemp gunstockers, as well as the old rifles when you can find them. This link to Allen's site is one example - http://www.allenmartinrifles.net/gallery-of-guns/colonial-se-pennsylvania-transitional-rifle/. He has seven rifles shown there that could fit the bill, if you look through them and imagine stretching the barrel a bit. I've seen similar rifles by others - Ken Gahagan comes to mind. Jack Brooks stocked this rifle some years back, based upon restocking an early English trade gun with a 46" swamped and rifled barrel. Maybe you can start a new thread about such rifles, ask for more examples of what might have been carried before and during the Indian War. Bob

(https://i.ibb.co/rmSbDWL/full-lock-side-email.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qdf0TZ4)
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Top Jaw on December 14, 2020, 04:03:33 PM: Food for thought.
Coopers surmising that the rifle had over 50 years of hard frontier service in his later volumes is extremely unlikely. If made before 1740, it would have already had 20 years of brutal service on it going into 1757, - the setting of LOM & the movie. Also extremely unlikely. Just look what their guns went through in the LOM movie script.

It’s documented that Boone, Kenton, and others had numerous guns during their hard frontier years in Kentucky and Ohio. Not sure what the typical lifespan of a weapon in that environment at that time would’ve been. 5 to 10 years? Or it would have simply been taken from you if you were captured by hostels. Or perhaps bartered to settle a debt. But to go even 20 years with one gun in that extremely harsh and dangerous environment would’ve been virtually impossible. So bottom line, there would have been a Killdeer 1,2,3,4,etc. And the rifle in LOM would have been replaced at least once or twice by 1757. My 2 cents.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Pukka Bundook on December 14, 2020, 05:00:11 PM: Top Jaw,

I tend to think that a rifle could last a lot longer than five years.

Even muskets in India, (some parts a very rough climate for anything!) were supposed to last ten years before requiring replacement.
If the bore is kept clean, (loaded maybe, but clean) and a decent lock lubed occasionally, I see no reason for it not lasting longer.
Although a dangerous time to be around, the overall amount of Use, to the amount of Carry, would be insignificant.

These are just my thoughts, based on nothing!

Bob,
When I saw the rifle you posted, I took it as a Chambers Mark Silver! Nice rifle.
Best,
R.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: borderdogs on December 14, 2020, 05:11:26 PM: I remember hearing the story of Boone's tomahawk that was handed down through the generations and the person who owned it said the head had been replaced three times and the handle seven times but was proud to have it.......
Rob
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Daryl on December 14, 2020, 09:28:41 PM: Quote from: borderdogs on December 14, 2020, 05:11:26 PM
I remember hearing the story of Boone's tomahawk that was handed down through the generations and the person who owned it said the head had been replaced three times and the handle seven times but was proud to have it.......
Rob

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Rob - good one.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Pukka Bundook on December 14, 2020, 09:33:51 PM: It used to be Robert the Bruce's battleaxe when I first heard it, Daryl!
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Bsunderlin87 on February 08, 2023, 12:06:58 AM: This thread has sat for a while, but I thought I could share some information as I came across this and am interested in the rifle. I reached out to Wayne several years ago, in 2016, and asked if he could make me a Killdeer rifle. I had nagged him several times, and he said he didn’t care about the gun anymore or the idea of making one.

A while later, I believed that a family member needed medical care, and he said he would make one. He said that this would be his 7th and final rifle. So I was excited when I went to go pick up the gun in that, along with the rifle, he also gave me his original drawing, stock template, wooden pattern piece, and all of his notes and sketches in a folder of the gun that he kept while making the first rifles.

My rifle was made as close to the original in the movie as that is what I asked for. It has a 48” 50. cal swamped barrel with round bottom rifling. He said he used Getz barrels. He also said that the stock for mine came out of the same tree that all other rifles did. I don’t know if that is true, but that’s what he said. The pull is around 15”, as I am relatively tall. All the furniture is steel, finished in white, and has a small Siler lock. It has a sliding wooden patchbox and rawhide wrap around the wrist to simulate a repair. There are also seed bead inlays around the barrel pins. He did sign the top flat of the barrel.

I can post some images of the material if anyone is interested. I find the stock shape very comfortable to shoulder in that the sights align naturally under the eye. The only problem is that the touch hole is too low, so I need to bore out and fit a touch hole liner slightly above where it needs to be. He also had to notch the underside of the barrel where the forward lock plate screw goes into the stock. I wasn’t too thrilled about this as that notch is right at the front of where the load sits in the barrel. As this rifle is very long, I don’t think it makes for a very convenient gun in the field, but as a target shooter, 50 grains of FFF is fine, and I haven’t had any problems with the barrel.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: smylee grouch on February 08, 2023, 12:59:59 AM: Is there enuf " meat " below the pan to grind the pan deeper ?
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: GrizG on February 08, 2023, 01:01:51 AM: While at Williamsburg this past July Richard showed me a 60" barrel he had just welded up... George Suiter smiled when I got back to his home and told him about it... It seemed crazy long but would have been easily adapted to such a gun as under discussion here! I wonder if he used it yet?
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Bsunderlin87 on February 08, 2023, 04:50:51 AM: I could probably grind the pan down some, but I’d rather put a liner in it. Is there anyone else that is making, or rifling, longer barrels? I am building one right now that I’d like a 52” barrel, but none of the manufacturers are capable of rifling that long.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Ats5331 on February 08, 2023, 04:57:21 AM: Geez I forgot I was the original poster on this haha. Would love to see some pictures and hear more info.

Not looking to build this one anytime soon, but would still be interested in learning more about it!

Cheers
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Pukka Bundook on February 08, 2023, 09:14:51 AM: Quote from: GrizG on February 08, 2023, 01:01:51 AM
While at Williamsburg this past July Richard showed me a 60" barrel he had just welded up... George Suiter smiled when I got back to his home and told him about it... It seemed crazy long but would have been easily adapted to such a gun as under discussion here! I wonder if he used it yet?

With a barrel that long, you need a small enlargement in the bore half way up, so the ball can stop and have a rest on the way out!
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Jim Kibler on February 08, 2023, 03:41:42 PM: Quote from: Bsunderlin87 on February 08, 2023, 12:06:58 AM
This thread has sat for a while, but I thought I could share some information as I came across this and am interested in the rifle. I reached out to Wayne several years ago, in 2016, and asked if he could make me a Killdeer rifle. I had nagged him several times, and he said he didn’t care about the gun anymore or the idea of making one.

A while later, I believed that a family member needed medical care, and he said he would make one. He said that this would be his 7th and final rifle. So I was excited when I went to go pick up the gun in that, along with the rifle, he also gave me his original drawing, stock template, wooden pattern piece, and all of his notes and sketches in a folder of the gun that he kept while making the first rifles.

My rifle was made as close to the original in the movie as that is what I asked for. It has a 48” 50. cal swamped barrel with round bottom rifling. He said he used Getz barrels. He also said that the stock for mine came out of the same tree that all other rifles did. I don’t know if that is true, but that’s what he said. The pull is around 15”, as I am relatively tall. All the furniture is steel, finished in white, and has a small Siler lock. It has a sliding wooden patchbox and rawhide wrap around the wrist to simulate a repair. There are also seed bead inlays around the barrel pins. He did sign the top flat of the barrel.

I can post some images of the material if anyone is interested. I find the stock shape very comfortable to shoulder in that the sights align naturally under the eye. The only problem is that the touch hole is too low, so I need to bore out and fit a touch hole liner slightly above where it needs to be. He also had to notch the underside of the barrel where the forward lock plate screw goes into the stock. I wasn’t too thrilled about this as that notch is right at the front of where the load sits in the barrel. As this rifle is very long, I don’t think it makes for a very convenient gun in the field, but as a target shooter, 50 grains of FFF is fine, and I haven’t had any problems with the barrel.

A touch hole low in the pan is as fast or perhaps slightly faster than one at the top. Larry Pletcher did this computerized timing and testing. Also, notching for a front lock bolt should be no concern if it is of typical depth and the barrel is reasonably thick. Probably no need to worry about either.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: rich pierce on February 08, 2023, 04:25:34 PM: So long as you don’t shoot a lot in high humidity, I agree, a low touch hole should be no problem. There were days in STL on the range with multiple relays when I fought a slurry of black goo in the pan of one of my smoothbores with a low touch hole. It might happen at Friendship as well. But for hunting and most range and plinking situations, no worries.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Bsunderlin87 on February 08, 2023, 05:00:53 PM: I might play around then with powder, charging, and bumping the charge in the pan off to the far side, this gun is just notoriously bad at getting the main charge to go off. I have had sessions where there are like 15 flashes in the pan before I get the gun to go off. When I put a vent pick down the touch hole there is also a pretty severe angle forward that that the hole was drilled at. It might be too small too.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Dan Fruth on February 17, 2023, 05:08:07 PM: A bit off topic, but James F Cooper got his information regarding Indian customs from a book written by John Heckewelder, who was assistant to the Moravian missionary David Zeisburger. The work was sponsored by Casper Wistar's grandson, Dr. Wistar. A reprint is available online.
https://www.amazon.com/History-Inhabited-Pennsylvania-Neighboring-Historical/dp/1556134118
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: duca on February 18, 2023, 04:29:05 AM: Quote from: Bsunderlin87 on February 08, 2023, 12:06:58 AM
This thread has sat for a while, but I thought I could share some information as I came across this and am interested in the rifle. I reached out to Wayne several years ago, in 2016, and asked if he could make me a Killdeer rifle. I had nagged him several times, and he said he didn’t care about the gun anymore or the idea of making one.

A while later, I believed that a family member needed medical care, and he said he would make one. He said that this would be his 7th and final rifle. So I was excited when I went to go pick up the gun in that, along with the rifle, he also gave me his original drawing, stock template, wooden pattern piece, and all of his notes and sketches in a folder of the gun that he kept while making the first rifles.

My rifle was made as close to the original in the movie as that is what I asked for. It has a 48” 50. cal swamped barrel with round bottom rifling. He said he used Getz barrels. He also said that the stock for mine came out of the same tree that all other rifles did. I don’t know if that is true, but that’s what he said. The pull is around 15”, as I am relatively tall. All the furniture is steel, finished in white, and has a small Siler lock. It has a sliding wooden patchbox and rawhide wrap around the wrist to simulate a repair. There are also seed bead inlays around the barrel pins. He did sign the top flat of the barrel.

I can post some images of the material if anyone is interested. I find the stock shape very comfortable to shoulder in that the sights align naturally under the eye. The only problem is that the touch hole is too low, so I need to bore out and fit a touch hole liner slightly above where it needs to be. He also had to notch the underside of the barrel where the forward lock plate screw goes into the stock. I wasn’t too thrilled about this as that notch is right at the front of where the load sits in the barrel. As this rifle is very long, I don’t think it makes for a very convenient gun in the field, but as a target shooter, 50 grains of FFF is fine, and I haven’t had any problems with the barrel.
How about a picture of this Rifle? I think we all would Love to see it
Thanks
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: frogwalking on February 18, 2023, 05:37:59 AM: Rob,

That was Turner kirkland who said that. It was in a very old Dixie catalog.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: t.caster on February 18, 2023, 09:00:27 PM: My first impression was it looks like a Hatfield shaped stock to me, with a wood patchbox to make it more period correct. Now I agree it looks Lehigh-ish, but that would be toooo early for the F&I War! JUst Hollywood fantasy. Hahaha
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Daryl on February 18, 2023, 09:43:16 PM: Quote from: Bsunderlin87 on February 08, 2023, 05:00:53 PM
I might play around then with powder, charging, and bumping the charge in the pan off to the far side, this gun is just notoriously bad at getting the main charge to go off. I have had sessions where there are like 15 flashes in the pan before I get the gun to go off. When I put a vent pick down the touch hole there is also a pretty severe angle forward that that the hole was drilled at. It might be too small too.

As Jim noted, Pletch's tests show bumping the powder to the outside of the pan slowed ignition & also that a low vent was also faster than a sunset position vent.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Sequatchie Rifle on February 20, 2023, 04:40:00 PM: This is an amazingly informative and interesting posting. Photos would make it even more interesting. Cooper’s books and the movie is what introduced many of us to this obsession.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Hawken62_flint on February 25, 2023, 06:00:11 PM: I too was enamored with the Killdeer rifle in the movie LOM and thought I had to have a copy, only left handed. On April 28, 2011 when Wayne Watson was living in Florida I called him and we talked about the rifle. He was very accommodating and gave me a lot of information about the rifle. What follows is from my notes taken during our conversation.
Barrel was swamped .50 caliber 50 inches long built by Getz (1 1/16" at the breech, 13/16" at mid and 7/8 at the muzzle)
Mann wanted the gun to look as long as possible so Wayne used a small Siler lock which made it appear longer.
Triggers were Davis
Stock loosely based on Allentown School (Rupp), with all iron furniture (Rupp buttplate, Isaac Haines triggerguard)
Stock stained light (Wayne and Brian LeMaster worked together on the finish on some of the rifles) The wood had curl, but wide spaced and light similar to a John Beck

Eventually I had EdRayl make me a barrel to the specs that Wanye gave me and then in 2021 I had Mike Brooks build me a Lehigh rifle using the 50 inch barrel. It is a joy to shoot and have carried it hunting on more than one occasion. I shoot 100 grains of 3F and it is super accurate. I love the way it feels and shoulders. Thanks to Mike it is a keeper.
BTW, Wayne Watson was so helpful and said he would be happy to have sent me a buttpkate and trigger guard like he used, but he had given the last ones he had away. And I still have a folder I kept on the Kilkdeer Rifle with all my notes and pictures of the rifle. But I am more than satisfied with my Brooks Lehigh.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: duca on February 25, 2023, 09:47:25 PM: Still no pictures??????
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Hawken62_flint on February 25, 2023, 11:07:25 PM: If I can attach it, here is a picture of Wayne with 2 of the Killdeer rifles he built.
(https://i.ibb.co/q75xjYN/FB-IMG-1638824448753.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ckLx3h6)
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: duca on February 26, 2023, 04:15:27 AM: Wow! Thanks for the picture!! Look how young Wayne was
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Crow Choker on February 26, 2023, 06:18:36 PM: I've loved LOTM movie since it came out. No idea how many times I've watched it. Just did again around a week ago after reading this thread and a similar one on the Muzz-Loader Forum. Weather permitting at times after watching the movie I was so pumped up I've grabbed my Hawkin MZ and headed for the river and timber just plinking at targets of opportunity on family property. Would have no problem having a like Killdeer rifle even though its been picked apart for non-authenticity. A larger lock would be better and ifin I'd build or have one it would have a darker reddish color with a tint of black to it like alot of flint MzLoaders I see. I don't like stocks on rifles of any kind with that light blondish color. Same with guitars, have none and will not have any of the light maple tops I see off and on. I suppose the movie who's who wanted that light color so as to stand out. Seems the MO is to pick apart the Killdeer rifle so this is just my rant. :)
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: t.caster on February 26, 2023, 07:05:52 PM: The Kildeer rifles are fine for the post Rev. War period. No problem there. It is just when you insert it into the F&I period that everyone goes bonkers.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: DDTM#2 on March 01, 2024, 06:36:27 PM: Just joined the group this AM. My initial reason was the rifle I own built by Wayne Watson. It is the fourth "Killdeer" rifle and so marked with his name. The barrel is 47" from the tang piece to the muzzle. As I recall, he told me there were three rifles prior to mine at the time (1994) that I contacted him for the build. Twentieth Century Fox had one, Daniel-Day Lewis had one and one was destroyed during filming of Michael Mann's "The Last of the Mohican". He was reluctant to build the rifle, and as reported here in several posts, he highly criticized it as not being correct for the period. Anyway, I really wanted it at the time, and he did build it for $2500. The only item he forgot was the beads on the stock, which he sent me with instructions on installation. I still have the beads in the container he sent...never installed them. I did fire the rifle at 50 yards, and evidently my aging eyes were able to get a three shot 2.5" group. He recommended pillow ticking with "spit" and 65-73 grains. I followed his suggestions.

In 2017 I contacted Wayne for information on any rifles made after the one he made for me. He told me that he had built only one other in the past twenty years, and doubted that there were more than six total to that date. He again said that he always tried to talk people out of building them and succeeded except for "a couple of folks, and you were one." Others he just turned down. It was evident Wayne was not a fan of this rifle.

I do have a .54 rifle built on what I perceive is the "Lancaster" style. It is marked "C Mead" without a serial number. Unlike the "Killdeer", it has less drop at the comb, and the steel is browned with brass butt plate, trigger guard, muzzle cap, ramrod ferrules. Does anyone recognize this builder? I bought the rifle in Springfield, Oregon about the same time as Watson's Killdeer.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: bigsmoke on March 01, 2024, 07:00:54 PM: Nothing to do with the rifle, just with movie production waste.
Last of the Mohicans prop people ordered 50 shooting bags from us of various styles. After a couple of watches, I could only identify one. Where did the other 49 go?
We also supplied flints to them. I imagine a lot of the people in the cast went home with a year's supply.
I forget how many horns they ordered, but none of them made it into the movie.
And if anybody has not had a chance to visit and tour a Hollywood prop business, try to do it. The guns they have would put most museums to shame. Purely mind boggling.
John (Bigsmoke)
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Bigmon on March 02, 2024, 07:16:36 PM: This is so very interesting. I must admit I have not time to read every post, but I have not seen any mention of a fella named Ron Luckenbull?? I may be wrong, and usually am, but I believe I was once told he made the rifle for that movie??
Could it have been a different movie? There really are not that many movies of this type?
Anyone else have anything on Ron Luckenbill??
Great thread and I WILL read it all when I can.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Bigmon on March 02, 2024, 07:17:34 PM: Gotta remenber to use that one!!
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: bob in the woods on March 03, 2024, 01:13:08 AM: Quote from: Bigmon on March 02, 2024, 07:16:36 PM
This is so very interesting. I must admit I have not time to read every post, but I have not seen any mention of a fella named Ron Luckenbull?? I may be wrong, and usually am, but I believe I was once told he made the rifle for that movie??
Could it have been a different movie? There really are not that many movies of this type?
Anyone else have anything on Ron Luckenbill??
Great thread and I WILL read it all when I can.
I believe that Ron made the rifle for the Revenant movie
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Daryl on March 03, 2024, 02:43:44 AM: Yes he did, & then they butchered it. It was too heavy for the poor actor to carry.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Bigmon on March 03, 2024, 02:50:18 AM: Yea, that's it. I knew it was something like that. My mind been slipping!
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Bob Roller on March 03, 2024, 08:19:29 PM: As I recall,it had a great musical score as well.Our oldest son really enjoyed it but never had any interest in muzzle loaders but shot BPCR at Ralph Marcum's.Opal's restaurant was a gathering place after shooting and I heard it's now closed.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Dphariss on March 08, 2024, 05:19:13 PM: Quote from: Ats5331 on November 29, 2020, 03:21:54 AM
I know that this has been asked before on the forum, but given that was years back, I would like to ask again..

Does anyone have any details surrounding the famous Killdeer Rifle used by DDL in the Last of the Mohicans movie?

I know that Wayne Watson made it, that it had a 50" barrel, and Lehigh esque stock. I also found that Knob Mountain Muzzleloading carries the pattern for it on their site.

Reading the forum post from years ago, it seems like there is some solid knowledge on the rifle here.

Anybody have opinions on the furniture used for the rifle? Or just general thoughts?

Thanks!
I don’t understand the fascination. Its a movie gun. It was a movie prop. It has very little in common with what is probably the only dated rifle of the era, the Schreit, which has some questions as well since it has been reworked apparently to make it look more like a “Kentucky” by someone. Like the rifles made for the movie Quigley Downunder, they have nothing to do with the era the movie is supposed to portray (rifle too early for Quigley rather than too late). In the case of “Last” its just what the uniformed wanted. In the case of “Quigley” it was Australian politics caused the time shift. Both are good movies, better than stuff from the 1930s-50s-60s. But still some time travel is involved in the rifles of both.
I used the Quigley because I KNOW about the “whys” involved.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Dphariss on March 08, 2024, 05:23:54 PM: Quote from: Mike Brooks on December 01, 2020, 05:54:10 PM
Quote from: Ats5331 on December 01, 2020, 05:24:20 AM
Has anyone ever tried duplicating the Killdeer?
I wouldn't waste my time.

Thank you. ;)
I am often too wordy. But then I dislike sound bites so…
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Ats5331 on March 08, 2024, 06:05:24 PM: Quote from: Dphariss on March 08, 2024, 05:19:13 PM
Quote from: Ats5331 on November 29, 2020, 03:21:54 AM
I know that this has been asked before on the forum, but given that was years back, I would like to ask again..

Does anyone have any details surrounding the famous Killdeer Rifle used by DDL in the Last of the Mohicans movie?

I know that Wayne Watson made it, that it had a 50" barrel, and Lehigh esque stock. I also found that Knob Mountain Muzzleloading carries the pattern for it on their site.

Reading the forum post from years ago, it seems like there is some solid knowledge on the rifle here.

Anybody have opinions on the furniture used for the rifle? Or just general thoughts?

Thanks!
I don’t understand the fascination. Its a movie gun. It was a movie prop. It has very little in common with what is probably the only dated rifle of the era, the Schreit, which has some questions as well since it has been reworked apparently to make it look more like a “Kentucky” by someone. Like the rifles made for the movie Quigley Downunder, they have nothing to do with the era the movie is supposed to portray (rifle too early for Quigley rather than too late). In the case of “Last” its just what the uniformed wanted. In the case of “Quigley” it was Australian politics caused the time shift. Both are good movies, better than stuff from the 1930s-50s-60s. But still some time travel is involved in the rifles of both.
I used the Quigley because I KNOW about the “whys” involved.

To be fair, this was 3 and a half years ago….

It’s funny how this thread keeps coming back to life and I get criticized for just asking a simple question. Never built the rifle or pursued it, but was rather just a thought.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on March 09, 2024, 10:57:01 PM: You have to accept that when you pick a scab off, you're going to get some bleeding. Everyone who reads these posts has an interest in the subject, and a lot of folks just like to voice an observation or opinion. From time to time, there is a pearl in the oyster, and you have to take the good with the less than good. It's entirely possible that some of the conversation is not going to fit with your concept of the subject, and may even offend you. But you have to accept that that is the nature of a discussion, and just deal with it. It is pointless to get huffy and defensive because of human nature.
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: L.H. Smoke Pole on March 10, 2024, 12:21:55 AM: 98% of the shootout's in the Old West was because someone got their feelings hurt
(https://i.ibb.co/gTns0g6/Old-West-Shootout.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Lucky R A on March 10, 2024, 01:54:13 AM: Hey Bigmon, Yea, I did build a couple of rifles for the Revenant Movie which Leonardo DeCaprio won an Oscar for. I ended up building 17 copies of that same rifle after the movie. I understand why Wayne was reluctant to keep building copies, especially if you don't like the movie in the first place. You can see photos of the rifle on my old web site www.ReCreatingHistory. That rifle was based on an original that I photographed at the KRA show when it was at Mars, PA. I stopped building commercially since my wife's Parkinsons requires much of my time. I still build when I get time for therapy and am up to number 417 now. Ron
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: elkhorne on March 10, 2024, 03:45:48 AM: Ron,
I still love my copy of the Revenant rifle you built several years ago and so glad you built them after an original rifle instead of a conglomeration of some Hollywood directors unfounded and un-researched ideas. Very sorry to hear about your wife’s medical issues but I’m sure she is in great hands with your loving care. Great to hear you are still keeping your skills tuned by building when you can. Good luck and prayers are with you all.
elkhorne
Title: Re: Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle
Post by: Mike Brooks on March 10, 2024, 02:08:53 PM: Ro. Did the Revnent gun (s)