AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: RANGER94 on December 27, 2020, 11:20:24 PM
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I have 1 inch arch punch patches that I want to pre lube with mink oil I was going to use a very small microwave container. Heat up mink oil in this container. Dip patches with tweezers then gently squeeze out the excess then lay down on alum foil. Later put in old pill container. Will that technique work. Or are there better techniques?
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I have 1 inch arch punch patches that I want to pre lube with mink oil I was going to use a very small microwave container. Heat up mink oil in this container. Dip patches with tweezers then gently squeeze out the excess then lay down on alum foil. Later put in old pill container. Will that technique work. Or are there better techniques?
That will work fine. When I use precuts I have an old small pot full of lube and heat it up just to melting on the stove, dunk a whole stack long enough for the outside half or a bit more to get lube, press the stack to squeeze out the excess and set them on a paper plate for a few minutes. I leave all the extra lube in the pot and set the plate over the top of the pot and put it on a shelf until I need it for the next batch. The stack will stay stuck together so I just throw the stack into the bottom of my hunting pouch and peel one off at need.
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I use that same technique for applying patch grease such as TOW's mink oil, except I melt the grease in a double boiler system with hot water, to avoid changing the grease which direct heat almost always does. And I put a wad of patches into the melted grease, and squeeze out a bunch at a time. Squeezing them singularly will, I think, remove too much of the lubricant. I like my patches slimy wet with grease, soaked completely through and all over the patches. I don't care if some ends up on the muzzle when I patch a ball, and send it into the bore with my starter. this way, a coating of grease follows the patched ball down to the charge, which helps to soften the fouling left when I shoot it out of the rifle. The same applies with liquid patches, such as the 10:1 water/cutting oil lube I use. I see a milking film in my bore when I seat the ball, and this makes shooting all day without cleaning possible, and final cleanup very quick and easy.
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I would have thought a stack at time would not efficiently soak the patches? I.E the first couple on top and bottom would be soaked but the ones in the middle would not get enough? The stack at a time would be quicker.
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I suppose there are around ten patches in each stack when I place them into the molten grease, and they take up the lube thoroughly and completely. I don't squeeze them too hard either, when I remove the stack. I lift out the stack with tweezers or hymostats, let them cool enough so I don't scald my fingers, squeeze the stack between my thumb and index finger, and put them on a plastic board to get cold and solid again.
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It depends on how many I am going to do at a time. If I am only going to do 25-30 I set the tin of mink oil in front of the fireplace and let it get warm but not melted to a liquid. I take the tin out to my bench and do the by hand 1 at a time. Sounds like a lot of work but takes like 5-7 minutes. I feel I get more control and consistency this way. If I am going to do a lot at one time I do like the others heat the mink oil over VERY LOW heat until almost completely liquified. I dip 10 or 15 at a time in the oil take out squeeze out the extra, lay them out on a paper towel and repeat until done.
If I am going to only shoot up to 25 rounds I put the pre-greased patches in this leather strap that is attached to my bag strap. Faster than digging in the bag and faster that cutting at the muzzle (I actually timed this).
(https://i.ibb.co/RSq9rYh/patch-holder-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dcRrCjb)
(https://i.ibb.co/VVwj8kZ/patch-holder.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8MYKVQp)
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I melt my lube and just dip one in and set it on a dry one. Alternating dry with dipped allows the dry to soak up excess lube and all come out soaked through.
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This is Exactly what I needed to know! I cannot thank you all enuff.
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An empty Altoids tin is handy to carry your prelubed patches. It will look better if you throw it in the campfire and burn the paint off. After it cools buff it with a piece of steel wool just enough to get the loose black stuff.
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Pre-cuts can also be strung on a thread with a needle through the middle of each. A double or single knot at the bottom will hold them on the thread.
To remove, just pull the bottom one off the stack. This is for spit-patching while on a trail walk.
A stack on this thread can also be dunked into the melted lube, then squeezed to get the excess out, then stored in a tin.
MMikes system with the slotted leather strip is rather a good idea too, for bunny hunts, or trail walks alike.
I believe you are overly complicating this, Renger94 - think about it a bit, then simply do something & see what works for you. This is all we did
and these "things" are what we do. All different - but similar.
I use Altoids tins, as well as Sucrets tins for lubed or dry pre-cuts and -
these also work very well as lubed or dry pre-cut patch containers.
With water based lubed patches, they will rust a bit over time and need wiping out with 000 steel wool
to remove the rust. Some mink oil or other, will help the cleaned surface.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/23/2
I use # 1790-B for my .36 cal patches, # Snuff box B for .50's, .62's and .69's, # Tinder Box B for all 4 calibres.
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One suggestion would be to not make a huge lot of lubed patches at one time.
If I prelube patches, I only do enough for a day's activities.
I have found that certain lube and patch cloth combinations will weaken the patch cloth over time. Many prelubed commercial patches end up very weak before it is time to use them. They just blow apart.
Just a suggestion meant to be helpful, based upon my past experience.
God Bless, Marc
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I agree with mark, over time the patch material will just get weak and dome times they will not hold up during the loading process much less the shooting.
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I take my patches put them in a prescription pill container of adequate diameter and fill with lube about 1/2 way.
In the summer I cap the tube and put it in the sun for about half hour. In the winter I put it near the stove. The dry patches absorb the bear oil. If there is any excess I put it back into the main container. I put them stacked in a baggie and press out excess in my vise.
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alacran: squeezing in your vise isn't necessary, and if I may say, removes far too much of the lubricant. However, your targets tell me your system is working well for you, and I have nothing but respect for your shooting ability.
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Taylor thank you for your kind words.
You are correct you can overdo the squeezing. It is a matter of trial and error. Don't want it so wet that it drips on my boots. Needs to be wet enough to do the job. To quote Frank Zappa " you've got to keep it greasy so it will go down easy". Happy New Years!
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My patches are so wet they squirt sideways when I seat the ball with my starter. Cannot be too wet. I squeeze out some of the liquid when I put the patches into the container for my bag, simply to help prevent the fluid from staining the bag if it leaks out of the container.
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Mine are wet, too. They don't drip, but do squirt if I smack the ball into the muzzle with the end of the starter (flat). If I punch them in with the little peg
they leave a ring of lube on the muzzle's surface around the hole. As I seat the ball, the end of the rod, more or less puts more lube from the excess material
onto the - I assume. I just thought of that as being a result of the well-lubed, excess material, as the lube in the patch around and under the ball will be wicked
up around the ball and onto the bore as the ball is shoved down the tube. If you look into the bore (from the side) after the ball is seated, you can see the bore
is damp.
(https://i.ibb.co/k2BhRvh/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TM2HVdH)
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I typically leave a small ring of mink grease on the muzzle when I start a ball... Sounds like I'm using the right amount of lube then.
Mike
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Re age of pre-lubed patches;
When I tried my rifle at the "Snowman" target, those patches had been lubed in melted deer tallow probably 20 years ago, and when I picked the fired ones up, they had the odd tare in them.
This never happened decades ago when I used them, so can only think that they had weakened considerably over time.
The patch material was torn into lengths the right width, dumped into the melted lube, fished out and left to cool then rolled like hospital bandage.
Normally, I'd just cut nearly through making square patches, and attach a few to bag strap. Tear one off as required. They shot as well as round patches.
Time to do a few more, but not as many!
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Good point, Richard. I have shot pre-lubed patches that were just a few month's old and they were already too weak. I've also shot pre-lubed patches that were
a couple years old and they were OK, even though lubed with the same Neetsfoot Oil. Thus, I must assume, the longevity of pre-lubed patches depends mostly on
the material itself - and, perhaps the type of lube as well.
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Is there an additional contributing factor besides the lube that could weaken patches? UV light... Leaching zinc from the galvanized coating of a metal tin... Dampness...
No scientific basis for this. Just thinking out loud.
Mike
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I'm thinking it is just bacterial breakdown of the natural fibre, ie: rot!
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Introduced myself over on the "Builders" thread, now have a question on patch lube:
16 or so years ago, when I last shot a muzzle loader, I did not worry to much about lubricating patches. After reading a bit here, I am giving it more thought. Yesterday, I cleaned out my smoker and took a new view of the pork and chicken fat that had accumulated in the water tray of my smoker, a big gelatinous mass of the stuff......would this fat work OK as a patch lube? I mean, it was slick. I don't think I would pre lube a bunch of patches and let them stand stored, but for lubing patches one at a time while at the range?
Best,
Wayne
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Tennjed: No, No and No. It is probably already ranci and it not will soon be and probably is saturated with salt. All bad for your rifle. Everyone has their favorite but you can't go wrong with 100% pure Neatsfoot oil (not the compounds) or Track of the Wolf Mink oil.
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I'm with Mike on the "smoker" fat. A can of Neetsfoot oil, if used for hunting only, will last for many seasons & not go rancid
or "bad". Same with Track's Mink Oil. I have a tin of it, some used, that's 3 or 4 years old now and it's just fine. For winter
target shooting, tennjed (Tennessee Jed?) we use a mixture of winter windshield washer fluid with a bit of Neetsfoot oil added.
The Neetsfoot oil slows the evapouration in the summer time when at rendezvous. It gets hot there. Too, I find my rifles shoot
well with less powder, than they demand be used with the slipperier lubes.
There are almost as many concoctions of lubricants for patches, as there are shooters. For me, a can (1 US Gallon) of WWWF lasts
a full year of shooting & then some. Lately, I've been using a lot of spit for lube - I find it is every bit as accurate as any other
concoction and it's free. As I shoot within a few minutes of loading, it is never in the bore long enough to rust the bore. Spit or any
water based lube is a NO/NO for hunting. That will make a rust ring for sure, where the ball sits.
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Introduced myself over on the "Builders" thread, now have a question on patch lube:
16 or so years ago, when I last shot a muzzle loader, I did not worry to much about lubricating patches. After reading a bit here, I am giving it more thought. Yesterday, I cleaned out my smoker and took a new view of the pork and chicken fat that had accumulated in the water tray of my smoker, a big gelatinous mass of the stuff......would this fat work OK as a patch lube? I mean, it was slick. I don't think I would pre lube a bunch of patches and let them stand stored, but for lubing patches one at a time while at the range?
Best,
Wayne
I rarely haunt the builders forum so I will use this opportunity to say 'welcome' to the site.
And as already mentioned, the fat in your smoker should be avoided... Rancidity (is that a word?) aside, the possibility of salt in the fat would steer me away.
Mike
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Thanks for the quick responses. Yes, tennjed is derived from Tennessee Jed.........."Cold iron shackle, ball and chain. Listen to the whistle of the evening train. Like I told you, what I said, better get back to Tennessee, Jed. "
Best,
Wayne
An old "hole snipe," destroyer sailor in God's Greatest Blue Water Navy.
My dog is sure going to happy to hear there is no other use for smoker fat. :)
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Ishoot pistols a lot, most matches are 10 shots requiring fast loading. Pre-lubed patches are essential. 40 years ago some of the old guys gave me their lube which is 50/50 mixture of wd-40 and synthetic oil. Works for me. Lou Helsel
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Ok not traditional but I pre lube by melting lamb tallow (local butcher shop) in double bailer I dip cut patches in and pull out then put then in a pill bottle every 3rd patch is dry(undipped) I fill the pill bottle till I can barely fit the top on and micro wave till hot (top off) then while still hot I place the lid on tight. seems to even out the tallow so patches are greased but not stiff
For strips same double boiler I then dip and pull strip through melted tallow then on a warm plate/flat tin with a spatula I squeeze out extra, I get a greased strip then roll up with an ungreased strip and place in the pill bottle and you guessed it micro waved till hot evens out the tallow ( I have way to many pill bottles at my age :o)
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As Flinchrocket said, a Altoids or other little tin with the paint burnt off is great for storing a mess of pre lubed patches in as well as a few balls. As long as your reaching for a patch a ball is right there as well. I also keep one of my cleaning jags in the tin as well.
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I always precut patches and carry a few in an old cap tin and lube them a few at a time.
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I melt my lube and just dip one in and set it on a dry one. Alternating dry with dipped allows the dry to soak up excess lube and all come out soaked through.
This is what I do. I also put the patches in the oven on low to help the dry patch soak up the extra lube from the wet one above.
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When using pre cut patches I do as the others, one wet with bear oil/Tracks mink oil between a dry one. I have used deer tallow also with good results but I only make up as many as needed for a couple days or up to a week. It seems that I forget about the left overs and the fabric deteriorates by the time I remember about them and they will fail for sure with rotten material.
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I figured your name when I saw it. "I woke up a-feelin' mean, went down to play the slot machine. The wheels turned round and the letters read, better get back to Tennessee Jed. Who was it that kicked his doggy?
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Take your thumb and smear them in the TOW mink oil in a circular fashion while watching TV. Lay the greasy side down on the less greasy side of the previous patch. Squeeze them and put them up in a warm place. They'll be just as greasy as melting and dipping. I used to melt and dip and wasted too much as it saturates the patch too much.
Bob
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Different strokes for different folks I guess. I myself like my patches to be soaked. The only patches that I shoot that are not soaked are the teflon coated for my bench, cross stix, and chunk guns.
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In my experience (50+ years) with ml I find that the pre-cut and pre-lube crowd way overthink the issue. e.g. patches do not need to be a certain size, just enough to grip the ball; patches do not need to be lube soaked through, only need lube on side that contacts bore. Soaking with lube wastes lube and you benefit nothing. I lube my patch material by rubbing the bore side with cakes, like soap bars, on the one side only. I prefer saving the fuss and cut at muzzle. But, still, I always advocate "do yer own thang".
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I also have over 50 years doing this and I would think if a guy lubed strips of patching and then cut at the muzzle you would waste the lube around the outside of the patch. My supply of bear oil & deer tallow is almost endless for this shooter so I'm not one to skimp on lube. :) ;)
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I can’t claim 50 years of anything at all but I dunk strips of what I’m going to use for the day or week and cut at the muzzle. I don’t like fiddling with tins and don’t care much about wasted lube. I can hit a squirrel in the head and a deer in the heart, but the beauty is, those things are also done all the time by folks who do everything completely differently.
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I was 20 years old when I joined the RCMP. During our six + months of training we were often told: there's a right way, a wrong way, and the RCMP way, of doing things. You're going to learn the RCMP way. It's easy for folks to retain that sort of narrow thinking and inflict their philosophies, methods and thoughts on others who may or not be willing to hear them, let alone adopt them.
Personally, I don't have that kind of ego, and offer what I have learned freely but without condition. I am gratified and grateful for the success, prestige, and honour that has been bestowed upon me during my 52 years of competitive shooting, and will happily continue to try for excellence with my black powder firearms. I have been relatively successful, as has been my brother, in our ALR postal matches, as an example of what works for us. Those of you who expound on the nuances of loading and shooting longrifles would be well served to demonstrate just a few times, your methods that seem to work so well for you, here in our postal matches. I submit that that would lend some credibility to your arguments.
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::)
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HUH.
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I melt my lube and just dip one in and set it on a dry one. Alternating dry with dipped allows the dry to soak up excess lube and all come out soaked through.
The above is exactly the way I've done mine for over 40 years. After I get a stack of 20 to 25, I squeeze them together to take out any excess lube - then put them in a percussion cap tin, and into the shooting bag they go. Works great! :)
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For rendezvous or trail walks, I use and like these items from Track, for packing pre-lubed patches, with water or oil/grease lubes.
They vary considerably in price.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/23/1/BOX-1790-B
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/23/1/TINDER-BOX-B
This one, is my current favourite.
https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/23/1/SNUFF-BOX-S
I also use Sucrets tins along with air rifle pellet tins, with both screw-tops and friction fit tops.
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I found a small Altoid’s can works well for my current set up...
I pre lube the patches as they’re needed ... I’m currently experimenting with Shenandoah Valley Lube..
(https://i.ibb.co/vxkbRNq/5-E26-B36-E-F501-4-FBA-AD56-B1899029-AE77.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1fT3jCQ)
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"I would think if a guy lubed strips of patching and then cut at the muzzle you would waste the lube around the outside of the patch."
Smylee, you are right. But either way there will be some loss. I'm a cut at muzzle guy.
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A lot of discussion on lubing while shooting which probably takes up most of our shooting time. For hunting, (or timed events) I use a loading block with the lubed/patched ball pushed deep enough into the block to stick out the bottom side a bit. I fill the groove around the bottom of the patched ball with some extra lube, avoiding the bottom center of the patch. In theory this lubes the barrel but there is not a lot of excess lube on the bottom of the patch where it contacts the powder charge. Seems to work.
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Can't prove it is true, but I am of the opinion that as the patched ball is pushed down the bore, lube wicks up from the base of the ball and onto the bore. I 'feel' that by the time the
patched ball is on the powder, there is very little dampness left. Then, as the ball is shot, the same thing happens in reverse. How else could the lube in the patch leave the fouling as
soft as it does? If the lube touching the bore and bottom of the grooves was only that which was in contact and the rest above and below was static, that lube would be "used up"
rather quickly- especially in a long barrel. No?
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Balistol and water 1:20 soaked good and wet works good for me.
When its really cold on the woods walk Windshield washer fluid and Balistol 1:20
Shot the league yesterday 11 deg F and windy nearly froze but got it done to
turn in my score. I shoot no matter the weather - its a running "score" I like to win
so I show up, no matter what, for 8 weeks. first Sunday in January.
Haven't missed a week in three years and seen some cold Sunday Mornings.
Is it Fun? I Think so!!!
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When I have nothing to do I lube patches with my fingers using tow mink oil. I then store the patches loose in a 100 rd cci .22lr plastic box with the sliding lid. I'll usually lube 25 or 30 at a time.
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Rifleman1776,
I have to respectfully disagree with your statement, "patches do not need to be lube soaked through, only need lube on side that contacts bore. Soaking with lube wastes lube and you benefit nothing."
I switched from "dampened on the side contacting the bore" to thoroughly saturated recently, and my barrel woke up. It went from moderate accuracy to grouping really well at 50 yards. The only change was saturating the patch. I believe that the extra lube was doing a better job of shoving the fouling down onto the powder charge, and softening the remaining fouling. This is for range shooting of course, as I would not wet-lube in the field.
A comment about wasting lube seems a little unusual considering the price of guns, powder and balls. Lube is mighty inexpensive compared to a longrifle.
The photo below was shot recently at 50 yards when I switched to fully saturated patches. The shot out of the group was the first shot out of the clean barrel, but it could have been me or the light as the cause. My eyes are not that great as I get older.
Just my 2 cents worth. Best wishes, Marc
(https://i.ibb.co/1670b4d/Target-11-20-IMG-7428.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vYVcDMQ)
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Virtually all of my guns shoot better with fully permeated patching and like others have noted, I have little trouble with hard fouling.
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One thing I have found over the years... I usually carry an eight hole ball board with my patches pre-lubed in it... If I'm target shooting I will put spit on that patch before loading that patched ball combination out of the board...
If I'm hunting - no spit obviously...
I shoot way more lubed patches with spit added - then I do just a straight lubed patch with no spit... This has worked well for me, and I doubt I'll ever stray from this technique since I've been doing it for so long... It's just an embedded habit at this point, and I don't really find any difference in accuracy with target shooting and hunting.
Whatever works for a person - they should stick with it. :)
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Snuffer, what lube are your board's patches lubricated with?
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I got achance to hit the range yesterday and used patches lubed last summer with lamb tallow and they did fine against 85grs. 3f goex. My biggest takeaway was the change in loading with the tallow over pure mink oil, the .018 pillow tic and .535 ball would require a two hand stuff in 6" pushes but the tallow could be planted with one hand. Even a patch change from ticking to pocket drill had no affeact on the accuracy which did occur with mink oil. When working with new components I do swab each shot, just to even the playing field. But man what a difference, I think I'll stick with the tallow.
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Rifleman1776,
I have to respectfully disagree with your statement, "patches do not need to be lube soaked through, only need lube on side that contacts bore. Soaking with lube wastes lube and you benefit nothing."
I switched from "dampened on the side contacting the bore" to thoroughly saturated recently, and my barrel woke up. It went from moderate accuracy to grouping really well at 50 yards. The only change was saturating the patch. I believe that the extra lube was doing a better job of shoving the fouling down onto the powder charge, and softening the remaining fouling. This is for range shooting of course, as I would not wet-lube in the field.
A comment about wasting lube seems a little unusual considering the price of guns, powder and balls. Lube is mighty inexpensive compared to a longrifle.
The photo below was shot recently at 50 yards when I switched to fully saturated patches. The shot out of the group was the first shot out of the clean barrel, but it could have been me or the light as the cause. My eyes are not that great as I get older.
Just my 2 cents worth. Best wishes, Marc
(https://i.ibb.co/1670b4d/Target-11-20-IMG-7428.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vYVcDMQ)
Whatever works for you. Do yer own thang and enjoy.
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Rifleman1776,
I have to respectfully disagree with your statement, "patches do not need to be lube soaked through, only need lube on side that contacts bore. Soaking with lube wastes lube and you benefit nothing."
I switched from "dampened on the side contacting the bore" to thoroughly saturated recently, and my barrel woke up. It went from moderate accuracy to grouping really well at 50 yards. The only change was saturating the patch. I believe that the extra lube was doing a better job of shoving the fouling down onto the powder charge, and softening the remaining fouling. This is for range shooting of course, as I would not wet-lube in the field.
A comment about wasting lube seems a little unusual considering the price of guns, powder and balls. Lube is mighty inexpensive compared to a longrifle.
The photo below was shot recently at 50 yards when I switched to fully saturated patches. The shot out of the group was the first shot out of the clean barrel, but it could have been me or the light as the cause. My eyes are not that great as I get older.
Just my 2 cents worth. Best wishes, Marc
(https://i.ibb.co/1670b4d/Target-11-20-IMG-7428.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vYVcDMQ)
Whatever works for you. Do yer own thang and enjoy.
I agree, you should use what works for you. Like Marc, I show what works for me, for those who are having problems or trouble.
Obviously his change to soaking of the patches, worked for him & others as well.
This shows there are very few "absolutes" in this 'game' & making absolute statements can be misleading to people seeking answers
to their questions.
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I switched to using saturated patches that are pre lubed and the results are better for me. No two rifles are the same and what works for one may not work for another. The real fun is the time you spend on the range figuring what your rifle likes best. :)
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I have thought about this considerably and I feel there are multiple 'combinations' of powder (F-rating and amount), patch(thickness and material) and ball (diameter and hardness) that will give good and perhaps equal accuracy. You can add to those components, wiping and method of wiping. 1 or more wet, damp or dry patches, followed by 1 or more dry patches - or not wiping at all.
I feel there are no absolutes in this game & one could almost work on an accuracy load almost or literally, indefinitely. A constant "work in progress".
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I'm another shooter/hunter that likes well lubed patches regardless of whether it's liquid or grease. Main advantage is that they load easier. And accuracy is as good as I can shoot.