AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: t.caster on December 29, 2020, 06:14:57 PM
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I just came from my second engraving class put on by Dennis Priddy in his shop. I got to work on a sample plate with his homemade graver and microscope and also spent time using a Lindsay system using my 5 power magna-viser. I think I like the Lindsay best with it's foot control. I have been doing engraving for many years using a hammer and chisel, so maybe it's time to take a step up.
I am contemplating the purchase of a decent air graver setup, but they can get mighty costly. So before taking the plunge I wondered what you guys & gals are using with success. How about the Chinese made Graver-Max that GRS promotes?
Pros & cons would be appreciated!
Thanks!
Tom C
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If you go on Yotube and search air gravers they have some videos on how to make one. I made mine for under 100 bucks and it works very well.
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I am a professional engraver and own a GRS system. They are spendy but believe me when I say they are the very best. If you get a GRS system you will never be sorry. There are some things the Lyndsey system will not do. They just don't have the power. In my opinion, foot control is the best but it depends on the individual. I will say this unless you intend to be a professional engraver the GRS system may not be worth the investment. My whole system cost about $15,000. That may seem like a lot but I have made 5 times that on 1 gun and more. In conclusion, you get what you pay for. I know most of the top engravers in the world and some of them use the Lyndsey but they usually have a GRS system besides. Nothing GRS sells is made in China. Do not buy the Chinese copy stuff. I have heard nothing but bad about them. GRS systems can be bought second hand sometimes for very good bargains.
The older models are almost as good as the newer ones.
(https://i.ibb.co/Nn6KT3z/master-logo.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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So here is my opinion... I bought a Lyndsay air graver, a microscope etc. I used it for a while but for most of the work I do I found I preferred hammer and chisel. Perhaps this is because I learned this method and this is what I felt most comfortable with. My feeling is that these air gravers are most beneficial for small scale, detailed engraving and the use of a ball. This is very different than the style seen on longrifles. I ended up selling this equipment a while back. I still have a magnablock engraving ball if anyone is interested.
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Tom C, PM sent.
And Jim, I still have your old Lindsey air graver! The neoprene handle finally wore out, sent it back to Lindsey for a rebuild, and it works great again!
John
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Hi Tom,
I use Lindsay's classic Airgraver with foot control. I have both the standard and heavy duty tungsten pistons for heavy work. I also have Lindsay's sharpening templates and system with templates for universal, detail, flat/knife, round bottomed, and calligraphy cuts. The calligraphy template creates a 123 degree angle on a square graver, which is very useful for John Schipper's nick and dot method. I used my Airgraver for all highlighting and detail cuts because I struggle to see the tip of a chisel anymore when chasing. However, I usually still cut my main lines with hammer and chisel. I do that because I want the engraving to have an authentic look. The perfect bank note type engraving you see on many modern recreations just doesn't look right to me. If I was engraving mid-19th century or later guns, I would be doing that style but not with earlier guns, even high-end English ones. Anyway, I find the Lindsay graver to be essential at my age and I am very pleased with the tool and Steve Lindsay's service.
dave
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As Jim Kibler said the Lyndsay system is best used for the light type or banknote style engraving. If you look at the Lyndsay website and see his engraving samples you will see this. There was some of this style engraving on very early guns, mostly English. virtually all the American long rifles were done with hammer and chisel. The pneumatic system that will best do this style is the GRS. For some reason, people think modern engravers cannot do 18th-century engraving. If you can cut steel and brass you can do any style you wish. If you can only do 18th Century style it is very unlikely you could do bolino or banknote style. There are a few on this forum who can do both. Smart Dog is pretty good at both and so is Dave Crisalli and Tom Curran and few others. My advice is don't take advice from amateurs.
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Good advice.
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With a GRS Graver Meister, with practice, its pretty easy to mimic the hammer/chisel one hit at a time authentic look.
I have a few pictures here,,, someplace,,,.
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IMHO, it usually isn’t the power engraving systems that create the problem. With a few exceptions early gunsmiths were not engravers, so their guns got good plain workmanship engraving. But, with a power graver, and a variety of engraving chisels, it pretty easy to let it progress from the type of engraving traditionally found on good quality longrifles to engraving rarely, or never seen on longrifles. It just becomes too much of a good thing.
Hungry Horse
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Good advice, as can always be expected here!
I don't want to do anything close to banknote or bolino style on a longrifle. I am too traditional (H/C) for that!
JTR please show me your setup. Thanks
Tom C
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I don't want to do anything close to banknote or bolino style on a longrifle.
Either brand can be adjusted to replicate hammer and chisel engraving. Lindsay sells 3 different units, one for fine work, one for general purpose work, and one for heavy work like hogging out aluminum on motorcycles. They all have different pistons available to vary the hitting pressure. The Lindsay unit has far less air consumption and no bulky box to clutter up your bench. It can also be run from CO2 cylinders for portability.
I had a GraverMax with an Airtact add-on unit and sold it to upgrade to the Lindsay. Would never go back to a GRS unit.
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As a novice engraver I have a perspective. My hands are getting more useless every year. I can not do any significant engraving with a hammer and graver.
With the Lindsay pneumatic unit and an improvised ball, I can. I can make a plausible copy of original work. Most of the original engraving was very simple if not crude. I can do crude! I do not try to be fancy or busy. I stick to what was documented and what is plausible based on that. My guns would have no engraving if I did not have the Lindsay unit.
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As someone who's very interested in learning to engrave, I'd love to see photographs and examples of everything that's being discussed here. Especially if some of those doing the engraving are relative beginners. Of course I've seen some of the masters' engraving on this board and recognize that I can't duplicate it.
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As someone who's very interested in learning to engrave, I'd love to see photographs and examples of everything that's being discussed here. Especially if some of those doing the engraving are relative beginners. Of course I've seen some of the masters' engraving on this board and recognize that I can't duplicate it.
Nonsense!!! Of course you can duplicate it. Or even do better. Just not today. None of those guys are using magical abilities to engrave. Only difference between you and them is practice time.
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I just got a Lindsey and loving it.For me it's easier than hammer and chisel.The sharpening system really makes it easy to sharpen bits.A little more practice and I might be able to do some half decent engraving.
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True, I just wanted to see what might be comparable to what I could handle now. And obviously, each of us have different abilities.
As someone who's very interested in learning to engrave, I'd love to see photographs and examples of everything that's being discussed here. Especially if some of those doing the engraving are relative beginners. Of course I've seen some of the masters' engraving on this board and recognize that I can't duplicate it.
Nonsense!!! Of course you can duplicate it. Or even do better. Just not today. None of those guys are using magical abilities to engrave. Only difference between you and them is practice time.
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I made one of these https://youtu.be/AHSIS6iwaQU
Took me a week of on and off filing and drilling and playing with the parts. I have a metal lathe, but I had to prove to myself that his primitive tools would get the job done. Finding a 5/8" stainless steel bolt was the hardest part to locate.
A friend and I made him one using the lathe, we made his in a couple of hours and a killed a 6 pack of beer and solved the problems of the world. Be sure to polish the inside hole for the piston as good as you can.
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I have used both the GRS and the Lindsay, both are great pieces of equipment. I chose the Lindsay as my permanent set because I engrave under the microscope and at my bench. I also use the palm graver. I chose the palm graver because it is a much easier system to move from the scope to the bench and there is no foot pedal to contend with. If you only engrave sitting at the scope then using a foot pedal is no problem. When I engrave a rifle on the bench I use my opti visor and I work from one end of the bench to the other and from both side’s of the bench, keeping up with a foot pedal is nearly impossible. So the palm graver fits me just right. I only have to move my small Sil Air compressor my regulator and my hand piece. With the GRS system I had to move the compressor, main Gravermister unit, the separate palm graver unit and the hand piece. Another factor is the hose from the hand piece to the GRS unit is held to a max length of 36”, a long rifle is over 60” in most cases. With the Lindsay system the regulator has about 36” of hose from the compressor so I can set the regulator midway of my bench then the hand piece has 36” of hose so with this setup I can reach any part of the rifle to engrave. Again both are very nice systems and both will do the job but I find the Lindsay better for me.
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Hi Ganggreen,
We all follow our own paths developing skills like engraving. I have disability in my hands because of nerve damage from severe frostbite. I have trouble positioning full length chisels (wood or chasing) to start a cut but once I am going I am fine. A pro like Jerry might be frustrated watching me engrave with hammer and chisel because I fumble so much getting started with a cut. The Airgraver solves that problem for me as well as making it easier for me to huddle over and see my work. Obviously, engraving is a physical skill to be mastered but it also is important to mentally understand the work done in the past if you want your engraving to look like it came from the time period you are trying to emulate. To me, much modern engraving on long rifles and even some English guns is too modern looking. It really pays to look closely at original work and see the designs and the cuts. Below are photos showing work I have done in different historical contexts. The first shows standard ordnance engraving on a British carbine from the 1750-60s. After cleaning up the casting, buildng the lock, and polishing, the cast in engraving was wiped out. Moreover, I wanted to change the name from Farmer to Vernon and the date to 1757. I used hammer and chisel to cut the thick and thin double line border as well as the name and date. You can see the imperfections in line depth and width but they are nicely parallel. That was typical work on locks and doing parallel lines is the best of practice when learning to engrave because it forces you to control the graver precisely. I cut the crown using my Airgraver because of the tiny details.
(https://i.ibb.co/pyJxfyr/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JQ5KvQF)
The next photo shows a patch box in the style of Isaac Haines. You don't see precise cross hatching for shading like you see in John Schipper's book, rather shading is done by converging a bunch of lines or by cutting a deep trench with a round bottomed graver. On this patch box all the main lines and deep round bottomed cuts were done with hammer and chisels. The lettering and detail were cut with the Airgraver. The designs are well cut but simple and 2-dimensional.
(https://i.ibb.co/pLK1NmK/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G5MdGhM)
Here is an example of French trade gun engraving. This is a little bit of a step up from the Haines box but the engraving is still 2-dimensional with very little shading. The engraving is a little harder to do because I had to now actually engrave objects that had to look real. Scrolls on most long rifles are pretty easy to do because they do not have to look like anything real and you can make mistakes in design without anyone else knowing it was a mistake. You cannot do that when engraving an object that has to look real. Note how often long rifle engravers did so badly with faces and animals.
(https://i.ibb.co/dBQPp5p/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TcH40g0)
Now I get to harder and better quality engraving on a higher grade English gun. I includes scrolls and volutes but also objects like cannon, flags, and a drum. However, note the lack of a lot of cross hatching for shading. Instead, when a dark area was required the engraver just stippled, converged a bunch of deep lines or used a round-bottomed graver to go deep and sculpt the work. Again, all main lines were cut with hammer and chisel and all details with the Airgraver.
(https://i.ibb.co/r3KThDk/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LrDbyVS)
(https://i.ibb.co/F8r24fv/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h26bFn5)
Here I get to the best quality British engraving for the time period. Scrolls, volutes, flowers, faces, and lettering. Shading by deep lines, parallel lines, or stippling relief. Nonetheless, note, not much cross hatched shading.
(https://i.ibb.co/tY9ZhqS/pistoltangengraving2-1.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/ncBJBhR/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9Th5hRG)
(https://i.ibb.co/gwQwzcd/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zbCbGtF)
(https://i.ibb.co/0K2kfYr/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8bsJjP9)
Finally, my best period engraving on an early 17th century French gun. This is really hard because almost the entire design is made up of fantastical beasts, human faces and figures, including a skull. Objects have to look like what the are supposed to be. This is an example of a mix of late mannerism and very early French baroque. My strategy was the same, main lines cut by hammer and chisel but all other work was cut with the Airgraver.
(https://i.ibb.co/7SKFhcG/earlyfowlerlockdetails2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/5hXG4pr/earlyfowlersideplate.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/J5t0h6L/Finished17thcenturyfowlerbuttplate2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
My enjoyment in doing this work is not just learning and refining my skills but learning the art and context from the times and places I try to represent. It is a commitment not only to learn the craft but to do thorough research.
dave
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When all is said and done it's not the guitar that makes the music. It's the hands that play it. I had a airtac add on for my graver max. I never liked it either. I sold it. Almost everybody on this forum who engraves only does the type of engraving seen on long rifles. For that type, most anything will do.
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Smart dog, that was a fun tour through the different styles you have accomplished, may I say...mastered! Thanks a lot! I am sure everyone enjoyed it!
There is a time period and place for everything, and Colonial longrifles were usually the main cuts without a LOT of heavy 3 dimensional shading. I've always understood that.
Tom C
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Dave that’s nice work and I really like the last piece that’s still in the vise. I need to get up the nerve to engrave my English rifle.
Cheers Richard
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If you don't have the money for a pneumatic engraving set-up, do not despair - here is an example of what can be done with a manual graver and hammer. About six years ago I took Wallace Gusler's engraving class at the NMLRA program in Bowling Green. He made this engraving on my practice plate, and he did it free form without any design. He made other engravings for every member of the class, about a dozen total. I'm looking forward to this year's NMLRA program this spring - these programs are incredible opportunities to learn from the best. Cheers, Alex
(https://i.ibb.co/qCw1rP9/IMG-2201.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YXGjLq8)
wesley gardens (https://nonprofitlight.com/ny/rochester/wesley-gardens-corporation)
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Dave, boy that's really some great engraving. I like it all.
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If you have more time than money or like to make your own tools you might be interested in this video.
https://youtu.be/AHSIS6iwaQU
There are more by this guy, and the leader of the homemade systems, Shaun Hughes.
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The GRS vs Lindsay airgraver is an endless debate. Both are proven systems. In a perfect world, demo both. I will add a note about the statement of the GRS having a larger power range. That might have been true at one time, but with the option of a tungsten piston for the smaller handpick and the advent of the Nitro hand piece, the Lindsay has the larger power range. One of my students bought one of the new pulse airless gravers from Tira Michell is very pleased. It seems to be priced more modestly than the GRS or Lindsay.
On the subject of make you own power graver. I know a guy who tried making his own and threw it away after wasting a lot of time. Getting a power graver to start and stop in a predictable manner is critical. Both GRS and Lindsay have been designing and machining these for four decades, so they have a pretty good handle non making a good product.
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Given Guslers' interest and expertise with the old original guns, if you zoom in on this engraving you'll see its just about what you'd expect to see on most old rifles.
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I use a Lindsay palm engraver. I find not having to use a foot peddle a huge pro, especially if you’re engraving something on the piece and need to move around. GRS and Lindsay both make excellent products, just comes down to preferences. As others have noted, the sharpening templates by Lindsay are incredibly helpful. I just really like the simplicity of an air engraver, and have found you can execute appropriate engraving typically found on American arms, as well as more refined engraving found on most European pieces. Whichever you choose, I highly suspect you’ll be more than pleased with the results! Best,
Ed
(https://i.ibb.co/wJhNLDp/4-EEDB802-9333-4-B1-B-B5-BD-FE782-A37-B71-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RhTpSLQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/m0MxFPY/39-CF3-A08-19-E2-4484-8646-9-B6-AD586-D70-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f9PcGTK)