AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Acer Saccharum on August 29, 2009, 08:28:18 PM
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A most interesting possibility enters the scene.
I was talking to a friend of mine this morning, who tried all kinds of things to get a barrel to ring. Using firecracker fuse, of course, he said he short started balls, but could NOT get the barrel to ring. He said the best way he found to get a bulge in the barrel was this method:
Load powder, ram the patched ball down the bore, seat firmly on the powder.
THEN...short start a ball in the muzzle. This makes a nice bulge in the barrel.
Now, it dawned on me as I had no recollection of short starting, it is also entirely possible I had already pushed a ball down onto the powder, and THEN short started another ball.
Either way, the main ingredient is distraction, balanced by a great big portion of luck. I am glad to be here to tell you about it, and even happier that I am not paying hospital visits to a hurt son or neighbor. Amen.
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First time I ever had this happen, and hopefully the last. You might think 'this couldn't happen to me', and I must admit, I never entertained this happening to ME, with MY gun. However, this weekend changed all that.
I was shooting alongside my son Jesse, and one of our neighbors, Bill, was coaching Jesse. I had one ear on what Bill was saying, and less than half my focus on what I was doing. I loaded powder and started the ball, and completely forgot to push the ball all the way down with the loading rod. In hindsight, I had no doubts, no niggling thought to check my gun if I wasn't sure of the load. Nothing. Nothing, that is, until the gun went off with the strangest sound. It didn't dawn on me that something was wrong until the smoke cleared, and the muzzle didn't look right.
I have been shooting Muzzle loaders for about forty years, so experience has nothing to do with this. It's focus on the job at hand that matters for the safety of yourself and others. When someone says safety, I feel like I'm right on that bandwagon, touting safe handling, safe procedure, etc. But this event made me take a step back and re-assess my thinking. This kind of thing can happen to ANYONE, no matter how, young old, or experienced if you don't pay attention to what you're doing.
Most of all, it's FOCUS. If you are distracted, ANYTHING can happen. I have forgotten powder about five or six times in my shooting life. OK, so you pull the ball and start over. Or the vent is full of sludge.
But something like this is not only damaging to the gun, someone could have been hurt or killed if things had gone differently. I count myself as the luckiest man in the world.
The short starter I use puts the ball just at the front sight dovetail. The dovetail makes the barrel weak at this spot. In one way, this gave the barrel a definite place to relieve the pressure. Had I a longer starter, the barrel may have only bulged, but not split? Or could it have blown sideways, and shrapnel hit my neighboring shooter? I shudder to think of what COULD have happened.
.54 swamped, with about .05 wall thickness at the dovetail. Shooting 70 gr FFG. .535 ball The shsort starter placed the ball RIGHT at the dovetail. You can see the bulge right at the dovetail. I think the split probably started at the thinnest point, and tore fore and aft from there.
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The strip of metal peeled forward, but nothing tore off, thank God.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa246%2FTom45-70%2FShort%2520Start%2FDSC_2423.jpg&hash=14467739708723b169c9d60225bfbf439024b33c)
Front sight stuck into the rafters above the firing line.
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It gives me the chills to think what MIGHT have happened. If reading this helps someone else pay a little more attention on the line, then this lesson has not been wasted. Don't talk to others while loading or shooting. If you feel distracted or unable to concentrate, take a break. Your safety and that of others is at stake.
I feel like the luckiest man in the world. I learned a terrible lesson at a very low price. I don't give a @!*% about the gun, I can get a new barrel. But I can't replace someone's eye.
Tom
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Gee Whiz - to put it mildly :o
I'm surprised that we don't hear of exactly this same thing happened more often than it does.....Now then it behooves all and sundry to check their own short starters and make certain they do not line up the ball at the tennon or sight notch.
Spread the word and I assume it will be alright with you if we get this incident featured in our state federation newsletter ???
Tom - Do not let this sour you on the game! Stuff happens and we should educate ourselves and all that may listen to the various safety issues and procedures.. :)
Today at a shoot in Easton, Pa I checked on the guy I had with me as to the length of his short starter. Turns out it lines the ball up with the barrel tennon. He is getting a longer starter!!! I check mine and it lined up with the frt end of the barrel tennon. Half hr ago I changed to a longer starter to get the started ball behind the tennon dove tail and of course the muzzle..... ::)
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Roger, far from being soured, I am truly thankful that nothing happened to anyone on the line. Someone at the range thought I must have been really embarrassed, but to tell the truth, it had not occurred to me at that point to be embarrassed. I was so relieved that no one got hurt, that I hadn't had time to think about that side of the event.
I am also thinking that if it was so easy to have an accident like that, that I'd better let everyone know about it before it happens to them.
I seem to remember Taylor is dead set against short starters for this very reason. If the only thing you have to load the gun with is the long rod, then there is a real slim chance that you will fail to push the ball all the way down. It may require crowning/coning the muzzle of the barrel and finding a ball/patch combo that allows an easy load without having to use a starter.
I have taken better pictures and will send them in to Muzzle Blasts. This event has many facets that are noteworthy to mention for builders and shooters alike.
Better view of wall thickness over front sight:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa246%2FTom45-70%2FShort%2520Start%2FDSC_2652.jpg&hash=3275aee3d446bc77fd5b85336607a70cee601ef8)
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Man- that is amazing. Glad no one was hurt!! Interesting how the barrel split, presumably following the grain of the steel.Wow.
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Is it the photo or my tired old eyes but the break doesn't look like it is a CLEAN Break. The steel looks rusted where it came apart. I'm glad you were not hurt and we all had a refreasher in loading. Eric D. Lau Riverdale Mi.
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Eric, no, no, this is a totally clean break. Rusty from sitting all night. Kinda hard to clean now.
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Sorry that this has happened to you , but, another reason NOT to use a short starter... you don't REALLY need that tight of a patch ball and you can learn to load correctly with a ram rod...
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Tom....very interesting. Great pictures, and sure glad no one was hurt. Just goes to show ya, it can happen at any time or place. We can do all the talking and showing pictures of what can happen, but it will happen again to soneone,
not that we are sloppy shooters, but it is just one of those things....just like dry balling. If you have ever done it you would swear that you put powder down the barrel. Saw one at the CLA show, just like yours, but this gentleman insists
that he had the ball all the way down, seated on the powder....what do you think?.........Don
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Wow. I'm glad the damage was limited to material and not people. This provides a pretty good close-out to the recent 'What would have happened' thread. Thanks for sharing the experience.
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Tom, thanks for posting this. It shows that no one, regardless of experience, is immune from this type of accident. Thank God that no one was hurt.
If I'm helping a kid or a new shooter, I leave my gun at home. When I'm at a match, I make it a point not to engage in conversation. That may make me sound like a snob but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
George Sutton
Centershot
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A fellow shooter, Sue Connors, was telling me of some of her experiences on the range, but one point of hers in particular that has SO much bearing on this situation:
Do not try to load or shoot while instructing a new shooter.
Now I realize that I was not the instructor in this case, but I was completely distracted. In the future, I will hope to recognize this and focus on ONE task or the OTHER, but not try to do both.
Tom
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As others have said, you sure dodged a bullet, no pun intended...and the front sight imbedded up in the rafter is a very telling photo...could just as easily have sheared / flipped off to one one side or another...hats off to you for being big enough to post this...a good wake-up call for everyone.
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Acer,
Glad you nor anyone else was hurt! I have often worried about short starting a ball and have taken the rifle down, dumped the priming and run the ram rod down to make sure. Felt silly afterwords but after seeing your barrel I would rather be safe than sorry.
I had a friend of mine shoot a steel ram rod down range in my .58 caliber musket! Nearly broke his shoulder but at least it was seated all the way down and didn't do any damage except to his shoulder!
Dennis
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Glad you or anybody else was not hurt ...wasn`t there a question on here what would happen if a ball was shot just short starting the ball?
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Eric, no, no, this is a totally clean break. Rusty from sitting all night. Kinda hard to clean now.
I will add that I have seen more than 1 split barrels and the grainy look of the steel at the break/split makes it appear almost like broken Cast steel altho we know better!
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Acer,
My hats off to you for posting this for us all to learn from. Great tutorial on waht happened I might add. I can't imagine how lucky you must feel that no one was hurt especially seeing that front sight embedded in the rafter.
Wow!
Ken
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Thanks for posting this Acer. Glad to hear no one was hurt.
I will also use this as a reminder to my White River Brigade to keep their mind on their loading. I've seen more then a few times the guys want to visit while loading. Not good...
I tell them to keep focused on their loading but my comments of concern last about five minutes, then they're back to B S'n... Well, maybe if they see this it'll be a wake up call to 'em?
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Dennis, I had mentioned before that I had no clue that I'd done this....whenever I doubt my load I check it out. I have dumped my powder out if I ever think I've double charged, or not charged at all. But this time, I had not a doubt at all. This comes from being distracted. Very dangerous.
I am very thankful no one got hurt.
Tom
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Acer, I also thank you for posting and thank God no one was injured. I can't imagine your initial shock and fear at that moment. This post is an excellent tutorial not only about BP shooting but many other potential dangers. Most notably on a personal situation is when I'm in my woodshop or at the reloading bench and the fellows drop by for visit..... the machines get turned off and the canvas cover goes on the reloader press. Again Acer, THANKS!!
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Tom,
It's a relief to hear that all are OK. It probably should be a cause for caution for all of us. Even with no one around I fear that I can be so zeroed in on one loading step that I neglect another. We all need to learn from this.
Regards,
Pletch
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And some think I am silly for loading with a rod and no starter if at all possible.
Dan
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I've shot a short started ball once & a ramrod on another occasion, both when I was distracted. I'm certainly glad that no one was injured & it even looks as if a new barrel will fix the rifle. This is the inevitable thing that happens when humans & machines get together.
Roger B.
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I, too have fired a short started load, but the only result was a weak sounding report and a ball that bounced in the dirt about 60 yards out (thank goodness). Sometimes we get complacent with this stuff and forget what could happen if everything all lines up in the wrong direction. It has never even dawned on me to check the relationship between the short starter and sight dovetail. Thanks for posting this, Tom.
Incidentally, what load, just out of curiosity?
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99% of the time I shoot alone at a small out of the way private place so the primary distractions are just me falling into the subconscious routine of reloading while my mind is a 1000 miles away...has accouted for its share of dry-balls & douple loads...but the witness marks on my range rods have been a god send.
And my range rods have large 2" wooden balls on the ends so they're immediately visible if you shoulder the rifle with the rod still in the bore and I don't worry about shooting a rod out.
But this posting has me sitting here thinking of what additional discipline I can add into my loading sequence as a safeguard...to ensure the range rod gets used every time in the first place.....I want to continue using short starters so I'd like to figure some way that might force me to remember seating the ball all the way down before taking a shot.
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Load: .535 ball, .018 pillow ticking, 70 gr FFg.
Nothing out of the ordinary, nice, comfortable load.
I am curious too, about a procedure that will either eliminate the short starter( preferred), or a system that makes it obvious that I did not use the range rod(very difficult).
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Tom : Just read your " muzzle blast" posting. :o Thank God no one was hurt!!! Distraction is a muzzle loaders worst enemy! When I am at the range I use a special made steel ram rod with a brass collar to protect the muzzle from wear to load with. Because the loading rod is made of steel I can eliminate the short starter because the extra weight in the the steel rod gives me the extra "push" I need to drive the ball down on the powder. However the ball and patch have to be slightly entered into the muzzle first but keep them still visible at the muzzle face so one is less likely to overlook the complete loading procedure.
Thanks for posting your accident!! It might save someone else from experiencing the same!
Hugh Toenjes
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Acer,
I have three rifles that I use all the time and have developed a load for all three that is loose enough so I dont have to short start them. None of the muzzles are coned. No loss of accuracy noted.
For years I was the proponent of tight patch, ball combinations. I love the fact that I don't need a short starter.
Centershot
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Many years ago Fred Riley from Florida called. Fred was a well know super gunbuilder, there are still a lot of his guns still
kicking around at gun shows, etc. Anyway, Fred was at a shoot and did the same thing Tom did, burst the barrel out near the muzzle. He sent me some pictures of it. Everyone was standing around Ooohing and awing, and Fred says,
"$#*!, I built it, I guess I can make another one". It can happen to anyone at any time, despite all the warnings and suggestions to prevent it...........Don
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Distraction while loading,yikes! I haven't checked lately but I think I have a ramrod still orbitting the earth! Tom,you have big"stones" for posting this incident. Thank God no one was hurt.
ps: just want to add. I use a short starter and I incorporate it into my loading regimen.
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Thanks Tom! a great reminder.
I use .530 balls in my .54. never use a short starter...and probably have to wipe more frequently than Daryl et al. but I can load with my hickory ramrod..no short starter ..and it seems as accurate as the .535. Now I think safer too... I definitely want the point of least resistance to be the patched ball. Not saying it wouldn't cause the same problem under the right circumstances..I just want all the factors in my favor....I know after two dry balls that I can screw up.........
Glad you are all safe!!
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If you or a friend will be coming to Friendship for the Fall Shoot, I would encourage you to display this rifle in Gunmakers Hall, with the short starter and roundball in place AND with your explanation attached. Many shooters and builders could learn a vital lesson about shooting, and short starter design.
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Acer,
First of all - after saying that I am glad on one was hurt - it takes a bigger man to share his mishap than to hide it. I salute you! You are a true friend to all who share in this forum.
I was once shooting with our club and as I rammed the load home "something" felt different. The witness mark on my ramrod was NOT at the muzzle! I walked over to the very side of the line and pulled the load with a ball puller. The witness mark still did not line up! I pulled a second load - and then a third! Now I have an excuse, Annette was wearing this white tank top and I had taken notice of it, longingly, several times. But the witness mark finally got my attention.
I don't use short starters. I am loading a .520 swaged ball with an .020 patch over 85 Grains of GOEX FFFg. That is my hunting load, it is my shooting load. I start it with my thumb. I am getting 1.5 inch groups at 75 yards off a rest. What more do I need?
This business of using short starters got stared back in the 1860's with the muzzle loading competitons where false muzzles were used and then again in the 1930's when interest in muzzleloaders was reborn. They distort the actual reality of muzzleloading if your objective is to replicate the 18th century shooting. I want to shoot and hunt with the American longrifle as it was done in 1770. For me, using a short starter is a perversion that takes me away from that objective.
Best Regards,
JMC
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I quit using a starter a long time ago. Mostly because I didn't like the extra piece in my shot bag and because of this. I can get my ball started with the butt of my knife I use to cut patches. I only use my rifles for hunting not target matches so I don't go for supper tight fit. My rod works fine pushing the the ball down the barrel. However you can still get distracted and forget to push the ball down the barrel. It almost happened to me a few weeks ago when my nephew was shooting with me. It's good to see that no one was injured and lesson well learned. That is one that will stay with you for a long time to come.
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Acer, I'm glad to hear that you and no one around you was hurt when this happened. I also want to say thanks for shareing this with us.
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:o That's one hum-dinger of an eye-opener! Thanks for posting.
The worst incident I've ever experienced was when loading my fowler at a shoot at another club, and one of their members was being friendly and chatting me up, showing interest in my gun. All I managed to do was dry ball the thing, and knew it immediately when the rod went past the witness mark. Ball pulled, bore wiped, and no harm done--except to my ego.
Comraderie on the line may be fun, but it could lead to tragedy. I've known rangemasters to ask yakkers to step away with their conversations. I've appreciated that.
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Tom. Re: your update. Wouldn't a short started ball on top of a properly loaded ball have a tremendous recoil. You didn't mention anything unusual.
Bill
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Bill, I suppose you are right. I didn't notice any particular recoil, good or bad. The sound was odd.
Dunno. It adds an element that COULD have been possible, I suppose, since I can't really tell you what happened.
I also wonder if the lead went out the big gap at the top of the bbl, but then there would have been lead spray on the rafters as well? Maybe. Or I would have heard rattling all over the tin roof? Again, I am stumped.
But the main ingredient for this disaster was lack of focus. That is something we can all work on. I can't tell you how many people here and at the range told me stories of what they did, or what they saw. All of it preventable with concentration and safe loading procedures.
Tom
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Well, that is an eye opener. I'm glad that no one was hurt.
Short starting a ball is probably the only thing I haven't done...yet.
Be careful out there, folks. Physical interruptions and flights of fancy are all too commonplace, so check yourself, if and when you feel that something with your loading procedure isn't right, or when you have been interrupted during loading.
Better yet check yourself using two different checks.
Last week I think I fired a double load of powder, patch, ball, powder, patch ball, after being distracted by another shooter. I did check to see if powder had been loaded, but I DIDN'T check the length of the column of the load.
The result was a boom-boom with noticeably heavier recoil...and no hole in the target. Fortunately the Getz barrel took the 200 gr, combined, double load in stride. And some folks don't think 12L14 is a good barrel steel. ???
Again, be careful, and check and double check.
God bless
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As everyone has said, I am glad no one was hurt.
I too do not use a short started. It always seemed like an extra unneeded step. When I shoot my guns with coned muzzles, all it takes is my thumb to seat the ball at the muzzle where it can be seen and the ramrod to seat the ball on the powder. With the unconed muzzled guns, I use a starter to seat the ball at the muzzle, again where it can be seen, and then seat it on the powder with the ramrod.
That is, for me at least, another reason NOT to use a short starter.
Bruce
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The theory on the update makes sense now. I have fired a short started load twice, and both times there was a very noticeable reduction in the sound, almost a hollow sound. Obviously the ball was sub-sonic, but it still didn't have the boom of just a lower velocity load. I have also fired a double ball load (intentionally over a powder charge that was listed for a conical bullet) and the recoil wasn't excessive. The load you listed was certainly mild enough to not have excessive recoil, so perhaps just a little more wasn't too noticeable. If, in fact we are looking at a full load under a short started ball, it might not have mattered where the dovetail was, it would have burst the barrel, although the dovetail location certainly didn't help the situation.
Incidentally, the double ball load put both shots in the black of a B-8 target, but one @ 6 o'clock and one @ 2 o'clock. Interesting, but not successful enough to try it again.
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Eric, no, no, this is a totally clean break. Rusty from sitting all night. Kinda hard to clean now.
I will add that I have seen more than 1 split barrels and the grainy look of the steel at the break/split makes it appear almost like broken Cast steel altho we know better!
Brittle fracture.
Dan
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Call it a fracture if you want, but, if you blow up any sort of steel you will get edges just like this. You certainly won't
get nice clean edges............Don
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It looks like the barrel did a pretty good job of holding together under the circumstances. It does not look like any pieces are missing. I tend to agree with a second ball started, but not pushed down creating an obstruction. As with others I have short started with no ill effects. I examined a TC .50 renegade with 3 rings ranging from about 6 to 14 inches from the breech. The owner just fired out stuck maxis. I would have thought that barrel would have split.
Tom, does the split follow the groove? It looks like it in the photos but is hard to tell.
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Your update about a second short started ball on top of a seated charge makes mores sense to me. I have witnessed the firing of 3 short started loads with no apparent damage to the rifles. Obviously that doesn't mean that it cant happen. One rifle had a .54 cal swamped barrel. The other two were TCs.
Your pic does drive home the point about keeping your mind on the loading process. Thankfully there were no injuries and hopefully you'll be able to repair the rifle and use it again. LB
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Acer
Again, first and foremost, glad you are OK, and thanks for posting this in the interest of safety.
Now, a secondary question: How is your rifle where the swell and blowout occured? Will you get by with a simple barrel switchout to fix it?
Top Jaw
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Roger, far from being soured, I am truly thankful that nothing happened to anyone on the line. Someone at the range thought I must have been really embarrassed, but to tell the truth, it had not occurred to me at that point to be embarrassed. I was so relieved that no one got hurt, that I hadn't had time to think about that side of the event.
I am also thinking that if it was so easy to have an accident like that, that I'd better let everyone know about it before it happens to them.
I seem to remember Taylor is dead set against short starters for this very reason. If the only thing you have to load the gun with is the long rod, then there is a real slim chance that you will fail to push the ball all the way down. It may require crowning/coning the muzzle of the barrel and finding a ball/patch combo that allows an easy load without having to use a starter.
I have taken better pictures and will send them in to Muzzle Blasts. This event has many facets that are noteworthy to mention for builders and shooters alike.
Better view of wall thickness over front sight:
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi12.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa246%2FTom45-70%2FShort%2520Start%2FDSC_2652.jpg&hash=3275aee3d446bc77fd5b85336607a70cee601ef8)
Taylor, as do I, makes use of a short starter with about a 5" to 7" shaft, every time we load - have to, due to the snug ball/patch combination we use.
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We had our local shoot yesterday (great day great time) Most of our shoots around noonish while line was closed for posting targets and the shooters are 'back' we read the 'riot' act to them re: muzzles up, load frizzen open etc etc and I added the info on the shattered barrel (no names) and the need for a short starter if one is used to make certain the ball starter 'starts' the ball deeper than the frt sight AND the upper barrel tennon on full stocks. Hopefully all of them will heed the suggestion/suggestions! Thanks again to 'Acer' for posting this incident as a heads up!
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#@!! $#@* Tom!!!!
I'm just reading this thread now, and it brings back memories. I am witness to a catastrophic barrel failure which I think was caused by the same demon...distraction.
In the early '80's at a weekend shoot we had a stake cut where teams shot off a 2 x 4 between marks - quickest cut won. After about a minute of thunderous fire, there was an explosion to the line's extreme right, and my buddy Shane was standing holding just the butt stock of his "Taylor Made" Hawken. No one was injured there either - thank the Lord. The day's shooting came to an immediate end. When the shock had worn off a little, we determined that Shane had double balled his rifle over 100 grains of FFg. and the second ball had hydraulically risen off the first ball, during the speed of loading, causing an obstruction about a foot from the breech. I do not think that either ball exited the muzzle, but left through the horrendous split, as there still are patch fragments in the torn steel at the muzzle end of the split. This is a GRRW .54 cal x 1" barrel.
I post this just to reinforce Tom's point. I am much relieved that everyone is ok. And I know that this will serve as a wake up call to us all.
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi3.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy58%2FDTaylorSapergia%2FTaylorMadeGuns%2FDSCN1166.jpg&hash=b6d00e724067d38d601a2fa90b4a6ce5dc2ca4a9)
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Amazing no one was hurt with that one for sure.
Just as some interesting information...I have one of TC's old, early owner's manuals where they actually listed double PRB loads for their .45 and .50cals...100grns Goex 2F and two patcdhed balls stacked on top of each other.
Incidently, I've tested those loads myself just for the experience of it...with safety in mind from reading about the absolutele necessity that both balls be together...and they shot fine with side by side accuracy.
But T/C soon dropped those loads from their load data charts, either from hearing about / worrying about what you just posted, or perhaps even as a result of actual occurances like your post.
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#@!! $#@* Tom!!!!
I'm just reading this thread now, and it brings back memories. I am witness to a catastrophic barrel failure which I think was caused by the same demon...distraction.
In the early '80's at a weekend shoot we had a stake cut where teams shot off a 2 x 4 between marks - quickest cut won. After about a minute of thunderous fire, there was an explosion to the line's extreme right, and my buddy Shane was standing holding just the butt stock of his "Taylor Made" Hawken. No one was injured there either - thank the Lord. The day's shooting came to an immediate end. When the shock had worn off a little, we determined that Shane had double balled his rifle over 100 grains of FFg. and the second ball had hydraulically risen off the first ball, during the speed of loading, causing an obstruction about a foot from the breech. I do not think that either ball exited the muzzle, but left through the horrendous split, as there still are patch fragments in the torn steel at the muzzle end of the split. This is a GRRW .54 cal x 1" barrel.
I post this just to reinforce Tom's point. I am much relieved that everyone is ok. And I know that this will serve as a wake up call to us all.
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That is why I do not enter any stake shoots - way too much helter skelter - and I dislike any kind of speed shooting although I get involved i.e. the rattle box thingee on w walks etc. Our club does not and will not put on any kind of speed shooting at least while I'm around!
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You can do the stake shoot without the element of speed involved. Just do it by volleys until a stake topples over. I have never been involved in a speed shoot since that day.
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You can do the stake shoot without the element of speed involved. Just do it by volleys until a stake topples over. I have never been involved in a speed shoot since that day.
Good idea and warn them about no #%^*&@ double ballin! ::)
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Roger, just like every other aspect of this past-time, if it's done right, there is no problem. If and when you double ball, you have to hold the ball on the powder making absolutely sure that no air forces the second one up off the first. Then all is good.
I was invloved in a stake cut once when I lived in Squamish BC about a hundred years ago. I had a percussion Hawken of my own making, in .62 cal. the 2 x 4 was edge on so we were looking at 1 1/2" of wood at about thirty yards. I double balled my rifle, and on the "go" command, I cut the stake off cleanly with just the one shot. Both balls hit the board side x side - none of the rest of the team got to fire.
We don't do that sort of shooting anymore. All our matches require only one ball at a time, fired accurately.
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I might add that Shane developed a bit of a flinch, after that episode, normal, under the circumstances.
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This would surely end the " Can`t happen to me !" syndrome. I short started a Lyman Great Plains, which resulted in a Barrel bulge, which resulted in the purchase of a new barrel!! Definite eye opener. My Uncle has been warning us for years about the use of short starters fo years. Guess it is time to listen.......
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Thank you for sharing this information. It sure is a wake up call. It's easy to become complacent after we've been shooting these things for years. I'm glad no one was hurt.
I think the two ball theory explains the split barrel. In 30 years of shooting flintlocks I have fired a short started ball twice. A muffled report and a ball that hit the dust at the base of the target frame were the only results. No damage at all to either barrel. IMHO, the vent on a flintlock acts as a safety valve if there is only one ball short started out by the muzzle.
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This would surely end the " Can`t happen to me !" syndrome. I short started a Lyman Great Plains, which resulted in a Barrel bulge, which resulted in the purchase of a new barrel!! Definite eye opener. My Uncle has been warning us for years about the use of short starters fo years. Guess it is time to listen.......
Again a longer short starter that gets the tightly patched ball deeper than the frt sight and upper tennon dovetails is also a good failsafe on this question. The folks that cone the muzzle can do away with said short starters. Without the cone I can see the rifling at the muzzle getting battered and screwed up by a shooter repeatedly yakering around and wallowing around with the ramrod to get her started...Of course a loose ball and patch combo would help if you don't care about accurate shooting and setting the bush on fire ;) ::) ;D
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Probably a good habit to get into would be to leave the short starter in the barrel indicating that the ramrod had not been used. Painted orange or something highly noticeable to boot.
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Probably a good habit to get into would be to leave the short starter in the barrel indicating that the ramrod had not been used. Painted orange or something highly noticeable to boot.
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I do exactly this, Jim, leaving the starter in the bore until I'm ready to push the load down - especially when someone is talking to me, or I'm talking to someone while loading. I would most heartdly hope that everyone would stop using short starters and go to loose ball/patch combinations that don't need starters. That will free up the winner's circle for sure. ;D
BTW- At Rondy, we had 5 gallon pails of water about every 3 shooting stations, along with a cup for dousing burning patches, due to the 8% humidity and extreme fire conditions. The ground/grass was tinder dry and actually crunched when walking. Several times while on the firing line, "cease fires", were called so guys could walk out and extinguish smoldering patches.
When walking up to change targets for the Alberta bullseye match, I looked for people's patches and noticed many burnt crisps and shreds of patches on the ground - those of mine I spotted and picked up (easy to distinguish 1 5/8" patches of .030" denim), were still damp and quite re-usable if re-wet. You cannot load a combination like that without a short starter. Roger's note about making certain the short started ball is below the sight and wedge dovetails is a good one.
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tom: how deep was the dovetail cut in this part of the barrel.
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That does it. I have one barrel not yet coned, an A-wt .40. I'm doing it TODAY. Just hadn't got to it.
Actually there is another that isn't coned, but it's a .25 with lots of steel in it, and loads are 18 gr of FFFg. Even then, distractions are the enemy.
Think it over, folks. I've shot at various ranges and clubs, and one in particular seemed to have evolved a club culture of humor and grab-a$$ at the firing line. I didn't like it--I didn't feel like I was in control.
And GET THIS STRAIGHT. It is total BS that you can effectively MULTI-TASK. Research shows you can't. At least not effectively. Distractions hurt performance, driving or whatever. Even listening to the radio while driving will reduce your effective focus. Even talking with a passenger will contribute an element of distraction. And kids in the back seat? You bet. Some will argue that it doesn't affect THEM, but put them in a controlled research situation, and it bloody well will.
I don't want the cardiac surgeon playing scrabble with the anesthetist while doing a triple-bypass on me.
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Kermit, check the photos again. Look at the muzzle and study how big the bore is and the minimal barrel wall thickness.
Then go back to the pictures of the ruptured barrel and note how deep the sight dovetail was. In addition, note how little barrel wall thickness there was at the bottom of the dovetail
Another strange thing is why the front sight was back that far on a SWAMPED barrel.
IMO, if the rear sight dovetail was also cut that deep, the gun itself was an accident waiting to happen.
I have one of those 50 caliber 7/8 barrels that Dixie sold years ago. I refused to cut sight or tennon dovetails in it for the reasons exhibited on the ruptured barrel. rather than cut dovetails, I installed sights and tennons with silver bearing solder.
I have two original guns from the 18th century. the dovetails for the sights are barely scratched on the barrel flat. Perhaps 3/64ths deep, but certainly not as much as a 16th.
Go ahead and cone if you wish, but the gun in the pictures had other issues that were just waiting for short starting to expose that weakness.
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Comments.
Acer S. - would you mind telling us who was the barrel maker?
Some of you know I have rather strong opinions on barrel steel. Got to see a swamped barrel of heat treated 4140L, good steel, about what I would like. It was short started & split right apart. For the Mech.Engrs. in the group, there is a formula which CONSERVATIVELY estimates the pressures required to do this. For the steel in question this would have been something upwards of 60,000psi. No steel from which one can reasonably make a barrel will survive that
Roger Fisher - All steel today is "cast steel", by the 18th century definition. When you see CAST STEEL stamped on your axe or Allen pepperbox barrel it does not mean that part was a casting. it means it was steel made by melting bars of blister steel (carburized wrought iron) and casting it into a mold. The resultant ingot was forged and/or rolled out into bar for further work.
Sat Well - I've wondered if there might be some advantage to the flint vent, vs the more sortofsealed breech in a caplock. Nevertheless, Indians hunting buffalo on horseback, spitting the ball down the barrel of their flint trade gun were known to suffer some unpleasant burst barrels.
Did Acer S. say? Bet his is flint.
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I have looked at this picture several times and have come to one conclusion this is
the bar that Bob Roller ordered to make into gun screws cant figure out how it got
turned into a pipe bomb. just luck I guess kind of gives you a worm feeling thinking
about it when you are in a tree stand 2 miles from your truck while hunting alone.
kind of gives a man the feeling he mite need to look into becoming a vegetarian or
at least take a few classes in EMT.
have a nice day ::) jim mc lemore
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Kermit, check the photos again.
Spend hours staring at those photos, and the take-away is still mostly about distractions, IMHO.
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Many years ago we did some barrel blow ups. We tried loading a normal powder charge and short started the ball, after
several shots like this we were unable to blow the barrel. However, the only way we could recreate a blown muzzle such
as you have shown was to load the barrel normally, powder then seated a ball down on the it, followd by a short started ball.
With this situation it would bulge or blow the barrel at that ball. Funny thing, over the years we have replaced barrel that
had the muzzle end of the barrel split or blown off, and the guy was sure that he had seated the ball.........Don