AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Jerry on January 28, 2021, 08:15:19 PM
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Would like to know from our smoothbore friends if you would consider this an acceptable pattern at 25 yards? Thanks, Jerry
(https://i.ibb.co/cNDtsxk/7-F3-B9628-CD51-4873-8-EA5-7210-F76-ABC18.jpg) (https://ibb.co/55BvJ2G)
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Hi Jerry.
Large 'holy' pattern, looks to me. Also seems the gun is shooting low/left, but the group of holes near the top of the target seems
to say otherwise. I suggest more experimentation is needed & a larger sheet of paper is useful, so the whole pattern can be seen.
I like to use old forestry maps as they are large, square and solid white on the back.
I have also used B-27 target backs as well as butcher paper from a roll.
A single 'pattern' is difficult to judge by. When I pattern test smoothbores, I like to shoot at least 2 patterns with each load(more is better).
If those 2 patterns appear to be 'equal' in distribution, with no large holes a clay bird would escape through, then GREAT - I "likely" have a
good load!
This is a pattern from the right barrel of a 12 gauge cylinder-bore gun. 1 1/4oz. 7 1/2 shot, 75gr. 1F with 1/2" lubed fiber wad over the shot.
It's a decent pattern. There are less than a dozen pellets outside the 30" circle.
The pellet holes are "touched' with a felt pen to show up better. Oh - range 30 yards. It is suitable for flying birds, for sure.
There are some holes in this pattern, but it is a decent pattern, non-the-less.
(https://i.ibb.co/wrbch0H/12-cylinder-bore-pattern.jpg) (https://ibb.co/prshj0D)
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J-zoo Daryl that is a great pattern.
Tim
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No. Keep working with your card / wad combinations. It can do better.
This pattern is from my .20 gauge cylinder bore trade gun. size 7 1/2 shot from 30 yards.
(https://i.ibb.co/HNJXF5b/no-muffin-mix-2-Copy.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CJrW1RY)
(https://i.ibb.co/K6BCmMB/IMG-1892.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5TCq2NC)
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Round ball target from same gun
(https://i.ibb.co/fnhcggS/IMG-2848.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8dWhCCB)
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I'd like to say that Christmas wrapping paper with a white reverse side makes
good pattern paper- with a backer.
bought a roll for $1.00 just after holidays at the dollar store.
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No, that does not look acceptable to me. There are holes in the pattern where a squirrel would not be hit. I don't have pictures but my Fusil de Chasse throws a tighter pattern at 25 yards. You're almost there though, shouldn't be too hard to tighten it up.
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Not a very good pattern but I would like to know bore size, shot size, shot charge and powder charge. Wads?
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Jim, I use 1 oz. #6 shot. Nitro card, loaded at the muzzle with the 1 oz. of shot (in paper cartridge) followed by a thin card and saturated 1/2” fiber wad.
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Jim, I use 1 oz. #6 shot. Nitro card, loaded at the muzzle with the 1 oz. of shot (in paper cartridge) followed by a thin card and saturated 1/2” fiber wad.
How much powder?
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Hi Jerry.
Large 'holy' pattern, looks to me. Also seems the gun is shooting low/left, but the group of holes near the top of the target seems
to say otherwise. I suggest more experimentation is needed & a larger sheet of paper is useful, so the whole pattern can be seen.
I like to use old forestry maps as they are large, square and solid white on the back.
I have also used B-27 target backs as well as butcher paper from a roll.
A single 'pattern' is difficult to judge by. When I pattern test smoothbores, I like to shoot at least 2 patterns with each load(more is better).
If those 2 patterns appear to be 'equal' in distribution, with no large holes a clay bird would escape through, then GREAT - I "likely" have a
good load!
This is a pattern from the right barrel of a 12 gauge cylinder-bore gun. 1 1/4oz. 7 1/2 shot, 75gr. 1F with 1/2" lubed fiber wad over the shot.
It's a decent pattern. There are less than a dozen pellets outside the 30" circle.
The pellet holes are "touched' with a felt pen to show up better. Oh - range 30 yards. It is suitable for flying birds, for sure.
There are some holes in this pattern, but it is a decent pattern, non-the-less.
(https://i.ibb.co/wrbch0H/12-cylinder-bore-pattern.jpg) (https://ibb.co/prshj0D)
Daryl, that's an interesting load. The use of a 1/2 inch fiber wad over the shot, rather than a thin card wad, is new to me. What wad or wads do you use between the powder and the shot? Thanks.
Don Richards
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Jerry, I had one that shot about the same as your's. I got it to pattern well by using the same measure for shot and powder. I loaded powder, .125 nitro card, .500 lightly lubed.500 felt wad, shot, and over shot wad. I got my 10 gauge to shoot well with this same type of load using the same measure for powder and shot.
Jim
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Daryl, I agree with Don that the 1/2" wad over the shot is unusual. It could be the cause of the holes in the pattern. I have had good success with a lubed filler wad split in half (1/4" thick) loaded between the nitro card and the shot.
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Daryl, I agree with Don that the 1/2" wad over the shot is unusual. It could be the cause of the holes in the pattern. I have had good success with a lubed filler wad split in half (1/4" thick) loaded between the nitro card and the shot.
Larry,
I also split the 1/2 inch fiber wad in half and found that eliminated the holes in the center of my patterns because the whole 1/2 inch wad usually blew right through the pattern. Of course there are more ways to load a shotgun/smoothbore than there are flies in a barnyard.
Don Richards
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Jim, I use 1 oz. #6 shot. Nitro card, loaded at the muzzle with the 1 oz. of shot (in paper cartridge) followed by a thin card and saturated 1/2” fiber wad.
Jerry, if I am reading your post correctly you tried the Skychief load with the 1/2 soaked wad in front of the shot and the powder with one exception and that is the paper cartridge. Am I reading that correctly? Second question--is you smoothbore cylinder bored with no jug choke. Thanks.
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Dave, My smoothbore is cylinder bore. I used a paper shot cartridge with a thin card and a 1/2” soaked fiber wad loaded last. 55 grains of 2fg powder and 1 oz. of #6 shot. Thanks!
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Jerry, try it this way. Note no paper cartridge for the shot.
Powder charge
Nitro (hard) card
Shotload
Thin overshot card
Full fiber cushion wad*
*The cushion wad needs to be SATURATED (the wetter and heavier, the better) with oil. I like to use olive oil.
The load seems to shine best when used in cylinder bored guns.
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Dave, Thanks for your suggestion. Does 70 grs. 2fg powder and 1 1/8 oz. #6 shot sound good. Thanks, Jerry
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Jerry, yes that sounds good. I have been using 70 grains of FFG and 1 1/4 oz of mixed 4 and 6's with good results. Next time I pattern (when the weather gets better) I am going to try 80 grains of 1.5 FG. Good luck.
Dave
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Don and other guys, the "Skychief" load has been discussed here many times. That is a load that uses, as I did in the above pattern, 2 overshot thin "B" wads between powder and shot, then the lubricated 1/2" fiber wad OVER top of the shot. That wad will not disturb the pattern as it is heavier than the shot.
This idea of the lubricated wad is to not disturb the pattern, yet lubricate the bore. If the lubed 1/2" fiber wad is behind the shot, it tends to blow the patterns into do-nuts & cause holes- large ones. With the light weight thin "B" wads between powder and shot, the pattern is not disturbed by them as they spin off behind the shot cloud.
I won a trap shoot using an original 11 bore using only powder, shot and thin "B" wads - no filler wads at all. The contest was 10 shots and I smoked 9 of them, missing the last one.
I used powder, 3 tin "B" wads, then shot, then thin "B" wad over the shot. Loaded for all 10 shots was easy, but of course, there was a lot of fouling due to not lubricating wads.
I was hitting the birds within 10 yards of the trap and smoked every one I hit.
All it takes is perhaps thinking a tiny bit outside the box and experimenting - AND patterning, not just shooting a tin can.
If Jerry had shot at a tin can and held just a tich higher, the can would have been riddled and he'd think he had a good load. Such is not really the case. Needs more work.
He does have a poor range arrangement and must use small targets. I'm wondering if enough targets could be posted in a square, to give a larger impact zone that could be photographed
before taking down all the targets.
Expensive for targets, but this is important stuff IF - you want satisfaction & a good load.
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Dave M,
You mention mixing different shot sizes;
If you are shooting at sitting targets, (stationary) it may pattern well, but for flying targets, you will have a much longer shot string.
Even with one size of shot, you still get a shot string. in other words, all the shot does not arrive at the target at the same time, so on a moving target, a bird or beast can escape through a hole not seen when we shoot at a sheet of paper. (Some of the shot may arrive before or after the target has passed)
I must admit, I don't understand the poor patterns we often shoot these days, but Daryl loads and shoots well with thin wads between powder and shot, as recommended by Col. Peter Hawker. (Wads a third the thickness of bore diameter) and apparently does this without a thick wet wad up front.
Re good patterns;
A gun, even a M-loader if well bored, should be able to shoot a 40 percent pattern at 40 yards.
For the sake of it, lets say 30 yards instead! At this range, it should put at Least 40 percent of the pellets in a 30 inch circle.....Drawn After the shot is fired!, and averaged over numerous shots.
Good patterns are judged by how many 5 inch open areas there are. 5 inches is about the vulnearable are of a partridge or pigeon.
The least amount of open areas the better.
a pattern with just two or three 5 inch open areas with no shot marks in them, is usually described as an excellent pattern.
An easy way to look for these, is to make a wire loop 5 " in diameter, and move it back and forth over your pattern on paper.
The old Eley Shooter's Diary had a world of information re. patterns, effectiveness and max ranges, etc. etc.
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I have been using the mixed shot load for the last 8 turkey seasons (2 seasons per year) and have filled my tags. Have not wounded or missed any birds yet. Once at 40 yards. Have not always used the skychief load but have mixed the shot for many years. Got the idea from the Remington duplex loads when I used to use a modern 12 gauge. Thanks for the input.
Dave
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(https://i.ibb.co/H46kyTz/4-F2-F5-F4-A-667-D-496-F-A5-D6-3223-D6-A27917.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r0Y1h26)
(https://i.ibb.co/fkg74bp/D0-FAE31-F-3-CD6-48-E4-9425-731-E1687-AD9-B.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Not the best pattern , But it will kill...
(https://i.ibb.co/8XwGND7/F39-CF950-582-A-424-A-A2-B8-B1-DF38717666.jpg)
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Dave M,
You mention mixing different shot sizes;
If you are shooting at sitting targets, (stationary) it may pattern well, but for flying targets, you will have a much longer shot string.
Even with one size of shot, you still get a shot string. in other words, all the shot does not arrive at the target at the same time, so on a moving target, a bird or beast can escape through a hole not seen when we shoot at a sheet of paper. (Some of the shot may arrive before or after the target has passed)
I must admit, I don't understand the poor patterns we often shoot these days, but Daryl loads and shoots well with thin wads between powder and shot, as recommended by Col. Peter Hawker. (Wads a third the thickness of bore diameter) and apparently does this without a thick wet wad up front.
Re good patterns;
A gun, even a M-loader if well bored, should be able to shoot a 40 percent pattern at 40 yards.
For the sake of it, lets say 30 yards instead! At this range, it should put at Least 40 percent of the pellets in a 30 inch circle.....Drawn After the shot is fired!, and averaged over numerous shots.
Good patterns are judged by how many 5 inch open areas there are. 5 inches is about the vulnearable are of a partridge or pigeon.
The least amount of open areas the better.
a pattern with just two or three 5 inch open areas with no shot marks in them, is usually described as an excellent pattern.
An easy way to look for these, is to make a wire loop 5 " in diameter, and move it back and forth over your pattern on paper.
The old Eley Shooter's Diary had a world of information re. patterns, effectiveness and max ranges, etc. etc.
Pukka, this is my first and best flintlock turkey with the mixed 4's and 6's. I did embellish a bit as I checked what I put on the back of the mount and it was 37 yards and not 40. Also I don't really go after flying birds like grouse and pheasants. Just turkey and I like them as stationary as possible. Your comment on shooting birds on the wing and have holes in the pattern is probably accurate. Wish we had pheasants and more grouse and I would try it. Will try some clay birds if the weather ever clears. Dave
(https://i.ibb.co/5Yv2Hdt/turk-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GskFSXB)
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Dave,
That's a very bonny turkey display..a grand way to remember the hunt!
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I have a 36" 12 GA barrel that holds 85% patterns on an 8.5X11 paper at 30 yards. 3 drama of FFg and equal load, by volume of 7.5 shot. 1 overpower card and 2 over shot cards, no cushion wad.
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PM send, Mike.
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Smokinbuck, What is the thicknesses of your over powder card and over shot card? Thanks, , Jerry
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I just measured the ones I use, and they are commercial over-shot cards at .025".
I do not use the 1/8" hard cards anywhere in a non-=choked gun.
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I have a 36" 12 GA barrel that holds 85% patterns on an 8.5X11 paper at 30 yards. 3 drama of FFg and equal load, by volume of 7.5 shot. 1 overpower card and 2 over shot cards, no cushion wad.
Mark, With this charge in a 12, what would yo suggest for a 20? You can PM me. Thanks in advance. Jerry
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Had my second snow day of the school year yesterday, so I decided it would be a good day to play with some shot loads in the smoothbore barrel of my 24 gauge double with an eye toward turkey hunting. Our season is about a month out right now.
I only have two sizes of shot on hand, 7 1/2 lead and 5 bismuth. I had patterned the bismuth last fall for grouse and pheasant with the following: 65gr 2F, nitro card, lube cushion wad, over shot card, 1 1/8 oz shot (by volume), over shot card. The patterns were good enough as far as I was concerned for close shots (20-25) on either bird, but that would be about it.
Yesterday I decided to play with the Skychief load idea. It definitely tightened up my bismuth patterns (sorry, I didn’t take photos) I felt like they would be good for pheasant and grouse out to 30, but it looked to me like a turkey head/neck could slip through. Load was: 65gr 2F, nitro card, 1 1/8 oz shot (by volume), over shot card, lubed fiber wad.
Not sure how many of you have experience with bismuth. I have a bag of older generation shot, a number of the pellets are misshapen. I believe that was the cause of some wild fliers I saw on the patterning board. Hoping the newer gen pellets are available the next time I buy a bag from BPI. Also, for those experienced with the Skychief load, my fiber wads are not soaked in any kind of oil. I wasn’t thrilled with the idea of having anything “saturated” in the bore of a hunting arm that might be loaded and not fired for several days on end. I soak mine in melted SPG and let them dry. Since I’ve never bothered to weigh one, just wondering if that is dense enough to get the desired effect?
Second test load was 65gr 2F, nitro card, 1 1/8 oz 7 1/2 lead, over shot card, lubed wad. I fired those at 20 and 30 and for posterity took my last two shots at shoot-n-c turkey targets. The results are pretty consistent with what I saw in the other patterns I shot. Nothing overly scientific, but a fun way to spend a snow day afternoon!
Here is 20 yards
(https://i.ibb.co/qgVMxG7/498868-D2-0-A0-C-4-A1-D-A93-E-82151-F1-E4-E89.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M1QD9TZ)
Here is 30 yards
(https://i.ibb.co/gWXrfVN/8-E05-CFC9-0-AC8-487-E-9802-847-D009-A66-B7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z2LmBJp)
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I read an (& many) article many years ago about what shot sizes for what birds. this particular article was about using finer shot to fill in patterns for head and neck hits
as well as for 'dusting off' crips on the water. The shot recommended was 7 1/2's and #8's. I was shooting a 10 bore at the time & 2 ounces of 8 1/2's was what I used for
crips. They NEVER refused to work, yet no pellets, ZERO ever penetrated the body. The feathers would stop them. They did not even damage the wings, just the heads and
necks. The article noted these loads were deadly for crossing birds (pass shooting) out to 35 yards & easily dumped birds coming in to the decoys. Again, no body hits, only
opened wings, heads and necks.
A tight central core in the pattern sure helps with this.
Back in the 1800's, the Swedish "cup" wad helped fill in the centre of the pattern. Use your imagination. I have read of some guys making a 3/8" hole in the centre of the
fiber wad to do the same thing.
Lots of things to experiment with.
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Jerry,
My opinion and is cards are 1/8". I use the same for each.
(https://i.ibb.co/wLvXsGS/0131211115.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rtWSs8x)
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@!*% phone, should have over powder & over shot cards are 1/8". I use the same for each and no cushion wad.
Mark
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Too Tall Hunter, you should find that the more saturated (heavier) the cushion wad, the denser your patterns will be. Many, myself included have left guns loaded with olive oil soaked wads for a couple, few days with no ill effect (powder dampening).
A lot of the oil is left in the bore wall as the wad is seated. I do store my fowlers muzzle down though...
It may also be worth mentioning that I don't use soaked wads that have been laying around for weeks. With time, the saturation will begin to disintegrate the cushion wad and won't give the denser patterns that more recently prepped wads will.
Best of luck with the gobblers, Skychief.
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I posted this picture on Ken's thread above, Skychief load at 25 yards, I have found none better. I get almost the same density out of a cylinder bore 20 with a Skychief load. If I remember correctly, this is 1 1/2 oz of #6, 100 gr of 1F and a Skychief wad column at 25 yards.
(https://i.ibb.co/TB6Cwx2/turkey-2019.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fYfcXzF)