AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Dwshotwell on February 10, 2021, 07:57:03 PM
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I've built my first flintlock and am close to finishing my second. Third kit arrived yesterday. I've never fired a flintlock. I've searched here for a good "getting started" thread but not found much regarding how an absolute beginner can get started. I understand there's a lot that goes into dialing in the right combination of powder, ball, patch, etc. Right now what I need is a simple starting point - what to try first to at least get some lead flying safely downrange. If you can point me to old threads (I tried to search), other internet sources (most of what I saw dealt with percussion or modern in-line guns), or books, I'd appreciate the assist.
First rifle is a fifty caliber with Chamber's early Germanic lock. I'm also finishing up a Kibler Early Colonial in 54 and starting a Chamber's Isaac Haines in 54.
Thank you,
DS
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This is why you need to get in contact with a muzzleloading club in your area. Even though everyone does things different, there are many things the same. Some one on one instruction would be hard to beat, then when you start on your own you will have at least some idea of what your doing. Also, check out the postal match tread and you will get an idea of what kind of accuracy to expect. Good luck and don't cut yourself on the flint.
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Bob McBride has a great YouTube channel you can watch. There is a link on his posts. http://www.youtube.com/c/blackpowdertv
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Hello David. Welcome to the forum.
The first thing you must do once finishing a rifle, is to finish the muzzle crown. Most come from the barrel company looking like these two.
(https://i.ibb.co/qpzvg4p/Machine-cut-crown.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KWYJsQW)
(https://i.ibb.co/MPVpt4H/stretchman-s-muzzle-before.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VMSDzZG)
What this crown will do, if the patch has a good thickness to get decent accuracy, is to cut the patch, which makes a fellow use a thinner patch
that will not shoot well with an decent load. So, the answer is to smooth the machine cut corners, so they flow, so the lead ball and decent patch
can swage into the bore. This allows a thicker patch, which will seal the powder gases behind the ball & deliver much better accuracy. Not only that
but it will also not allow fouling to build up shot to shot, ie; when you load the next one, you clean the last one.
(https://i.ibb.co/NLWPKgg/stretchman-s-muzzle-after.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sFsGqpp)
(https://i.ibb.co/s3zzBtQ/Rich-s-Muzzle-after-Thumb-Treatment.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0JvvwQZ)
The way many guys, myself included do this is with the end of the thumb & emery or wet/dry paper with some sort of light oil, twisting the wrist and
every 15 twists of so, turning the barrel 90 degrees. This will ensure an even muzzle finish.
(https://i.ibb.co/sCGyNqD/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gdpzfJX)
Push a piece of patch material just down into the bore 1/2" or so, then when finished the crown you can fish it out with a dental tool or needle nosed pliers.
This will catch all the 'grindings'.
Then, obtain a ball mould .010" to .005" smaller than the bore, some 10 ounce denim and you are off to the races. In a .50, I'd start with 70gr. to 75gr. 3F, or 80gr. 2F.
I do prefer 2F for .50 and above, while other guys will use 3f in all bore sizes. GOEX works fine, but others do well with Swiss and Old Enysford.
You will need a short starter for starting the ball into the muzzle.
Send me, in a PM your E-mail and I will mail you a short video on loading a .005" undersized ball with a .021" to .022" (10ounce) denim patch.
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I live three hours from the nearest club, at least the nearest one I can find with a web presence (Lansing, MI or Manistee MI - I'm well north of there). However, I will see if there's a way I can work with them if that's the best way to get started.
Darryl - thanks for the advice regarding the muzzle crown. I'll take a look at that this evening. There was a big learning curve with building, and it looks like it is just as big with shooting! However, that's why I'm here.
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There were no clubs when we got started, but with the help of publications like 'The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle' by New Roberts we were able to figure
things out in a couple years. With the help you can get nowadays, this could/should be a very short learning curve.
Flint rifles are not different than cap lock rifles, except for the ignition cycle. You didn't say whether or not you were familiar with cap locks - I assume so. They
should explain themselves pretty much.
If you are already a BP shooter, and likely are - then disregard my first post about loads etc. The crown, however is very important, even vital to being able to
load an accurate load.
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David: there are countless threads in the "Black Powder Shooting" forum on loads, involving ball size, patch quality and thickness, and lubrication for them, powder granulation and quantity. But I agree, there is likely none that takes a new shooter and starts them off. Far better than reading the many and varied opinions of the rest of us, which can be intimidating and confusing as we argue about all these variables trying to make our points, is to find a mentor - someone who has some experience, and get them to start you off. And even then, there are parts of their process that you will want to experiment with and change, if you are serious about getting the most out of your equipment. So if you belong to a Gun Club nearby, there will be someone in it that has some experience. Flush them out and ask for guidance.
In the meantime, here's a start for you.
You will need a quantity of black powder - not substitute BP like Triple 7 or Pyrodex. Your powder for your rifles can be either 3Fg or 2Fg. The 3Fg is finer, will generate higher pressure and velocity for a given charge compared to the courser 2Fg. Personally, I use 2Fgin rifles over 45 cal. You need a powder measure and an adjustable one is useful when starting out as you will want to try various charges. Start with around 60 gr. You will need some patch material, and a means to measure its thickness, ie: a micrometer or Vernier's Calipers. The material needs to be 100% natural fabric, like cotton denim, hemp canvas, or linen, and be in the neighbourhood of .020" thick when measured by squeezing the cloth tightly within the jaws. You measure by crushing the fabric because that's what happens to it in the bore of your rifle, and the philosophy is to have enough thickness of patch to do two things: seal the bore with some compression to the bottoms of the grooves, and carry enough lube to soften and carry the fouling from the previous shot down to the powder charge with each new loading. I and those who subscribe to this kind of loading technique find it useful to use a starter - a knob of wood or antler about the size of a small lemon with a hickory rod coming from one side about 6" long. On an adjacent side of the knob, set a short peg (I use brass) which is placed on top of the ball and patch, and with a sharp smack drives the patched ball into the muzzle of the rifle. Once the ball is in the bore, it is easy to send it down with the longer peg. Now your bore acts as a guide so you can push the patched ball down onto the powder charge. I do not try to do this with pressure alone on the rod, which will likely eventually break your ramrod. Instead, raise the rod a few inches above the ball, gripping the rod about 6 - 8" above the muzzle, and then with a jabbing stroke send the ball down until your hand lands on the muzzle. Grip the rod another 6 - 8" above the muzzle and repeat, until the ball is all the way down firmly on the powder. It's a good idea to mark your rod (I use a Sharpie) so you know when it's down. There will come a time when you think it's down because the rod comes to an abrupt stop. Unless you have marked your rod you cannot be sure that you've reached the powder. If you fire your rifle without seating the ball on the powder, you run the risk of ruining your rifle in the least, and having it explode, in the worst. A ball in the bore not seated on the powder acts as an obstruction rather than a projectile, and will cause a pressure spike when the charge goes off that can cause serious consequences. Read that last sentence again...it is vitally important.
Once the ball is seated, return the ramrod to it's place on the rifle. A little note about that: your rifle may shoot to a different point with the rod in or out of the rifle, so return it every time.
Now, with the rifle pointed in a safe direction and you standing at the firing line, prime the pan of the lock with a small quantity of powder, either from your powder horn or from a priming device or horn carrying finer powder. I use a priming horn carrying FFFFg.
You are ready to shoot. Bring the cock back to full cock, raise the rifle to your eye, sight down the barrel aligning the sights on the target, and squeeze the trigger. Be sure to carry-through, ie: continue to aim at the target right through the shot. There will be a nuclear mushroom cloud right in front of your face as the priming ignites in the pan and sends a jet of flame through the vent into the powder charge in the barrel. Knowing this is about to happen will cause you to slam your eyes shup, pull your head away from the stock, in other words, flinch. And you will miss the target. So, fight through all of that, and follow through, aiming right through the event, and your ball will go true and take the centre out of the bull.
There is much more to this than I have described, and others will add to and refute this, so stay tuned and take away as much of this as you can use.
Good Luck David.
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Well a mentor would sure be nice but if no clubs or mentor do it your self like so many others have done. You can do it. If you can build the gun you can learn how to shoot it. As has already been noted with a lot of good advice so far read and do.
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Bob McBride has a great YouTube channel you can watch. There is a link on his posts. http://www.youtube.com/c/blackpowdertv
I second this recommendation. It is, however important to know who’s a serious poster and who is not. I wouldn’t pay any attention to some guy hunting bikini Sasquatch from an automobile with a gun with no sight. Yelling and screaming at a well placed shot on a target the size of a small car. Those are the guys just looking for hits on their channel.
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Many years back I was starting on my own. I had a Dixie poor boy. It took me 27 misses, flashes in the pan, no spark at all and a few other problems before I finally killed a deer.
During the next summer I found a local black powder club and all the help I ever wanted.
Next season, three trigger pulls and two dead deer. The only reason it took three was the coupde gras on the first one.
Makes all the diff if you can find a mentor.
Best of luck
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I live in Clio Michigan Ill help ya if I can.
If no then Tobacco River Muzzleloaders should be the club you might be nearest?
If still No - then Google "MSMLA" and look at the Muzzeloading clubs in Michigan.
I made a mistake I didnt realize you are so far North! Benzie county sportsmans club has a good Muzzleloader group they shoot all summer (leagues woodswalk's) and put on several Matches. that's the closest place i can come up with right now.
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Thanks everyone for the great comments and advice. I should have mentioned that I built a percussion CVA Hawken 30 years ago and shot and hunted with it for a long time, so I'm not completely new black powder, but back then we just grabbed whatever pyrodex was at the sporting goods store and didn't think too much about it. I think there's enough here to get me started, but I will also see about visiting a club in the spring. Kudu, I'm still a good hike from Benzie, but it would be reasonable for a day trip if I can line it up, and in a non-pandemic world I end up in Lansing once every few weeks, so I can probably work something out. I've had a ball learning how to put the things together, now it's time to move on to phase 2.
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Here's a little something with basic info to help you get started.
pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/FIREARMS/lyman_blackpowder.pdf
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I wouldn’t pay any attention to some guy hunting bikini Sasquatch from an automobile with a gun with no sight. Yelling and screaming at a well placed shot on a target the size of a small car. Those are the guys just looking for hits on their channel.
Well... there goes my career.
On a more serious note, I'm consuming BlackPowerTV videos at an unsustainable rate. I'm also starting out, so I'm glad to hear that I'm at least on the right track. I'm too scared by my lack of talent to tackle a kit without oversight.
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The best advice I can give you is don’t go out and buy one of every contraption thats being sold for muzzleloaders. Learn to perform what is needed to run the gun, with the least amount of equipment.
Hungry Horse
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One last Thing
I really really really recommend using REAL Black powder- goex ,swiss etc.
I dislike pyrodex and other substitutes 777 etc. they got BAD stuff in them. Bad stuff for your Barrel that is. CHlorides -percolites or something like that..
Somebody with high education can elaborate or clear it up better "Mad Monk" Im sure.
The point is once you use a BP substitute its in the pores of the steel.
so try to start with the good stuff right off the Bat!
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There is a very useful book on Flintlocks, by that name, available on the NMLRA site. I would give you my copy, but it was made off with by a lab tech at the VA hospital about a year ago. The book covers thoroughly a bunch of different aspects of our ML hobby/avocation.
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Very sound advice from luck about the fake powder. Can be very ba
D for bores and reputed to be harder to ignite with flint locks
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Very sound advice from luck about the fake powder. Can be very ba
D for bores and reputed to be harder to ignite with flint locks
Yup and KUDU is my screen name - A antelope type animal from Africa I shot one a long time ago.
Adam
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Sorry about that Adam. I'm on a tablet with spell check and it isn't cooperating . ;)
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Sam Fadalas books are full of info for a beginner. You can usually find them on Ebay or online bookstores
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I would not follow Sam Fadala in this instance. Many of his practices are far out of date, and in some cases potentially damaging to you gun. Also many of the products he recommended are no longer available. There are many modern instructional videos that are much better.
Hungry Horse
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So glad I threw this question out there. Lots of good information and a few resources to follow - up. My main barrier right now is finding powder, apparently. I think that's going to require a bit of a road trip.
Thanks everyone.
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"Graff's" ships powder right to your door, apparently.
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If you Really want to make the road Trip, Duncans gun shop. in Bay City MI. sells Goex
You should call though and have them "hold it for you" if your planing on driving that far.
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I had found Graf's site in a search earlier, but they are currently out of stock on all black powder. I'll keep checking back. There was at least one other that shipped direct, but they were out of stock as well.
Kudu, in "normal" times I end up driving past Bay City once a month or so. I'll check them out. Thank you.
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Nice. I built a Kibler Colonial in 54 caliber about a month ago. I am using.530 round balls and 10 oz 100% cotton denim for patch material. I started with 70 grains of Goex 2f. . I use Mr. Flintlock lube and can shoot again and again no swabbing between shots. Working on load development at this time.
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Sounds like great combinations, oldhunter1954. I find 10 ounce works in every one of my rifles, depending on ball diameter.
I usually use balls only .005" smaller than the bore, as in my .50, but the .36 gets a .350" ball and the .69 uses a .682" ball with
the 10 ounce. I also use .675" and .662's in that rifle with thicker, .030" and .034" patches (12 and 14ounce denim)
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If you can find a copy, this book should be a great resource for you. I haven't seen a copy myself, but I've had the pleasure of shooting along side Eric Bye for years at NMLRA regional matches in New England.
https://www.nmlra.org/store/flintlocks-a-practical-guide-for-their-use-and-appreciation
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I would try some of the other muzzleloader forums. More membership, and you can probably find someone locally that will mentor you. Lot of members are watchers that rarely post on forums, but are willing to help someone if they ask.
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Thanks everyone for the great comments and advice. I should have mentioned that I built a percussion CVA Hawken 30 years ago and shot and hunted with it for a long time, so I'm not completely new black powder, but back then we just grabbed whatever pyrodex was at the sporting goods store and didn't think too much about it.
I hope you've got all that pyrodex mess out of your system. The flash point is too low to work in flintlock rifles, real blackpowder is what works, don't waste your time with the other stuff.
There are more than just a couple of vendors that will ship BP to your door so keep looking. Last time I bought any you had to get 25 pounds, now I think some places will ship just a few cans.
I just did a Google search for (Black rifle powder) and got so many hits I got tired of reading them. There are several types of black powder sold such as Goex, Swiss, etc. Some are faster than others such as Swiss, others are slower. But let me make a recommendation to a new shooter, start out with Goex black rifle powder. It's all I shoot and if it works for me it will work for you. Later on, once you've worked out all the bugs in your flintlock shooting you may want to try something else and that's fine but for now I'd keep things as simple as possible.
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If you find yourself in sw Michigan you http://gvcnb.org/index.htm may want to look these guys up. There are some great shooters and builders there. One in particular is Dennis Priddy. I’ve had two of his scratch built flintlocks and they are superb. He is an accuracy finatic and is very generous with his time as are many others at the club.
http://gvcnb.org/index.htm