AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: WKevinD on February 22, 2021, 03:53:44 PM
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I just had a chance to view this amazing piece.
It was found in a wall in the thirties and just came out of a closet in perfect attic condition. All the natural grunge and tarnish intact.
(https://i.ibb.co/pZ7W52v/IMG-20210221-105709428.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S0jQGNX)
(https://i.ibb.co/xqCY7Rk/IMG-20210221-110624429.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PGmM6fL)
(https://i.ibb.co/b58JDRG/IMG-20210221-110839700.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zV0JDHt)
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More pics please! This one is a beauty
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I'm going to start tearing down my walls today to see what's in them.
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Mike just go build one. Might be a tad easier for you.
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Awesome , thanks for sharing.
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More pics please! This one is a beauty
Awesome! Thanks!
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Interesting New England fowler stocked in curly maple. Massachusetts?
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I'm going to start tearing down my walls today to see what's in them.
Yeah, would be worth knocking a wall or two down for something like that, LOL.
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:o :o... is the date on the thumb piece, ANO 1775,...???
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Interesting New England fowler stocked in curly maple. Massachusetts?
From what I've found came from Shrewsbury Mass. Belonged to Asa Rice
Who was part of Artemas Wards regiment
Thumbpiece is engraved "A. Rice 1775"
Kevin
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A few more pictures and measurments.
Kevin
(https://i.ibb.co/C55H2Mh/IMG-20210221-110923736.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jvvrRWg)
(https://i.ibb.co/p6TfL9d/IMG-20210221-111015301-MP.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9m0brCW)
(https://i.ibb.co/gvBSkzD/IMG-20210221-145025384.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vsK30ZJ)
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Just beautiful! Some walls really do TALK! :)
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fantastic find. i think i would tear my house down for that piece ;)
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Thanks for great photos and measurements!
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Appears to be a restocked Fusil de Trait. Nifty.
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I looked pretty close I never saw anything aside from curley.maple that made me think re-stock.
I'm going back with a better camera to take better pics, what do you think I should look for to confirm re-stock or original?
Kevin
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Great fowler.
The Hills family from Goshen Connecticut used curly maple.
Kent
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I looked pretty close I never saw anything aside from curley.maple that made me think re-stock.
I'm going back with a better camera to take better pics, what do you think I should look for to confirm re-stock or original?
Kevin
Not at all. Curly maple vs cherry could help sort out where it’s from. As noted the Hills family used curly maple but this is not their usual style. It appears to have all French furniture. I’d be amazed if it’s a restock of a NE fowler. It’s unknown to me whether NE fowlers like this are made with recycled or never used French parts like the furniture here. Excellent gun.
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All of a sudden, it's fowler season! Where are all these great, early, colonial smooth guns coming from? Wow, we go years without seeing any and now they are coming out of the walls. The wear patterns on this gun are superb. It is a real diamond and very glad to know that it was retrieved rather than demolished as could have happened. Great history for the gun and may have been used in the War, but since there is no provision for a bayonet, that is not a foregone conclusion. Hope that you will post some more photos, full length, and detail photos of the furniture. Thank you for posting these photos. It is a real joy too see this one!
Dick
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I live about 10 miles from Shrewsbury. Too bad my house isn't old enough to contain a hidden fowler.
Here's his listing from Find a Grave:
Served as a colonel in Massachusetts during the American Revolution.
(46th-55th Annual Reports DAR. Senate documents (United States Congress, Senate). Government Printing Office: Washington, DC)
From the American Federalist Columbian Centinel, Boston, MA,
08-16-1823, Issue: 4106 Page 2:
"DIED
In Shrewsbury, 4th inst. COL. ASA RICE, a patriot of the revolution, aged 82. He was found in his bed where he apparently died without a struggle. He has entered his rest after a long and laborious life spent in well-doing." (This information contributed by Findagrave member #47536758.)
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Thanks satwel for posting Asa Rices obituary. It really makes us appreciate that the people who owned these old guns were real and contributed to our nation's history.
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I think I would fall over dead if I found something like that.
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I think I would fall over dead if I found something like that.
Keith,
How about I give you my contact info just in case you do find something this nice and drop dead! ;D
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I have had a number of "offers to buy".
Sorry but it is a family heirloom and at this point definitely not for sale.
The owner is extremely excited to see interest in this guns history and origins.
I have the owners blessing to return and thoroughly examine and photograph this gem with my "good" camera.
If he will approve I will remove the lock and barrel for an inside look.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Kevin
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All the mounts are iron and French in origin. The donor gun was undoubtedly A french Fusil De Trait. New England gunmakers weren't making this quality of iron mounts. This isn't a bad thing. A huge number of the NE fowling guns were stocked up using french parts. My old NE fowling gun is stocked up from an old French trade gun....with a craptastic back action lock!
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Wonderful gun to find indeed, what a thrill that would be. It appears to be well taken care of while in use, just look at the screw slots.
I look forward to seeing better pictures of this gun, and thanks for sharing it.
It would be really worth it to even hire a photographer, to take a very detailed pictures of it.
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If he will approve I will remove the lock and barrel for an inside look.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Kevin
Kevin,
If you are asking how to safely remove the lock,
My method for removing locks:
1.) Loosen the tang screw one or two turns.
2.) Backout each of the lock bolts while firmly holding the lock in place.
3.) If the lock will not budge, gently tap each lockbolt alternately using the plastic screw driver handle, until the lock comes out of it's mortice.
You may or may not already know that removing a pin retained barrel barrel is tricky.
Some of the experienced rifle guys on the forum can help with that if needed.
Kent
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If he will approve I will remove the lock and barrel for an inside look.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Kevin
Kevin,
If you are asking how to safely remove the lock,
My method for removing locks:
1.) Loosen the tang screw one or two turns.
2.) Backout each of the lock bolts while firmly holding the lock in place.
3.) If the lock will not budge, gently tap each lockbolt alternately using the plastic screw driver handle, until the lock comes out of it's mortice.
You may or may not already know that removing a pin retained barrel barrel is tricky.
Some of the experienced rifle guys on the forum can help with that if needed.
Kent
I think Kevin has been building guns for around 40 years or so.
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I think Kevin has been building guns for around 40 years or so.
Mike,
That's nice. I really have no idea who Kevin is as I do not get involved with reproduction firearms.
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Never ceases to amaze me what people find in walls, I could not imagine finding something like it.
Does that paper laying next to it with the picture on it have a write up about it?
Tim
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Kevin I wouldn't take that gun apart, it's perfect as it is. I'm sure as is Mike that the mounts are French and really the only way you may or may not be able to determine prior use would be the guard or the pipes, but I can tell you now anyone with experience can hit an existing guard mount hole from one side. It doesn't really matter if some parts were imported as loose and used new or remounted. The gun looks to be clearly American to my eye and the gunstocker was clearly very accomplished. The gun is too nice and too largely untouched (I'm sure it's been waxed at least!) to risk chipping out more wood.
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Kevin I wouldn't take that gun apart, it's perfect as it is. I'm sure as is Mike that the mounts are French and really the only way you may or may not be able to determine prior use would be the guard or the pipes, but I can tell you now anyone with experience can hit an existing guard mount hole from one side. It doesn't really matter if some parts were imported as loose and used new or remounted. The gun looks to be clearly American to my eye and the gunstocker was clearly very accomplished. The gun is too nice and too largely untouched (I'm sure it's been waxed at least!) to risk chipping out more wood.
Excellent advise
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Advice accepted! Thanks.
I'll take a lot.of pictures.
The picture next to the Fowler is of the woman that owned the house where the gun was found in the thirties.
The paper next to it is miscl. information on Asa Rice.
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Just wondering if the family that has it today is from the original Rice family. If not, don't see how the fowler could be a 'family heirloom' as its chain of ownership does not extend that far back. I do hope that the people in whose hands it now resides are indeed descendent of the original folks. We had heirloom guns in my family but due to kin who were either pacifists and didn't allow guns, or were people who saw no reason to keep an old gun around, they have long since gone. Gee, wish I knew what they were and where they are.
Dick
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Just because it is stocked in curly maple it is automatically a restock? I believe I remember reading several early documents indicating wood being one of the items often returned in the holds of ships returning to Europe from the American continent. Could not some of this wood be returning as finished products?
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Just because it is stocked in curly maple it is automatically a restock? I believe I remember reading several early documents indicating wood being one of the items often returned in the holds of ships returning to Europe from the American continent. Could not some of this wood be returning as finished products?
Often hypothesized. As we used to say in science, it’s formally possible. But there are a great many New England fowlers with what appear to be recycled parts. And a good many stocked in curly maple. It had been proposed that a lot of French guns were captured at Louisbourg in 1758. If so, how parts made it into the hands of New England gunsmiths is unknown. But, those New Englanders were known to be frugal and ingenious.
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Waste not, want not......!
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I've noticed on this forum, and I'm quite positive that others have as well, that any longarm that does not meet the "accepted norm" for the type which it is perceived to be, is automatically branded as "a restock". It seems to be a kneejerk reaction that is annoying at best.
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It seems that many New England fowlers of the 1760s through the Revolutionary War era utilized recycled parts, so were composite guns (made from parts from more than one gun, or a combination of recycled and new parts), or restocked guns using all the parts from French guns presumably with broken stocks.
This is different in my view from a gun stocked in the colonies or states then broken and restocked at a later date. Example; finding a Dickert signed barrel and daisy patchbox on a late percussion rifle.
“Restocked from a French fusil” is not a disparaging assessment when applied to a New England fowling piece.
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I understand the point and I believe that in the case of this piece particularly, "restock" is likely a poor descriptive, or at least a somewhat misleading one. Rich's note above about a "composite gun" is right on imho - "composite" I think is a much more applicable here. The term 'restock' seems to have attracted some negative baggage, although not really sure why.
As we all know, prior to the Federal period, the idea of a lone gunsmith or shop making all of the components of a rifle or fowler is somewhat of a romantic fallacy most of the time. Purchased parts were easily available, recycled parts were easily available. The majority of the components here appear to be pretty straightforward French. Whether they were on another arm previously or if they somehow were 'purchased new' (not sure if that would be possible in NE) doesn't reflect negatively on the piece in any way, to my mind.
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It seems some here don't understand New England fowling guns. Please purchase Grinslade's book and get up to speed.
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I understand the point and I believe that in the case of this piece particularly, "restock" is likely a poor descriptive, or at least a somewhat misleading one. Rich's note above about a "composite gun" is right on imho - "composite" I think is a much more applicable here. The term 'restock' seems to have attracted some negative baggage, although not really sure why.
As we all know, prior to the Federal period, the idea of a lone gunsmith or shop making all of the components of a rifle or fowler is somewhat of a romantic fallacy most of the time. Purchased parts were easily available, recycled parts were easily available. The majority of the components here appear to be pretty straightforward French. Whether they were on another arm previously or if they somehow were 'purchased new' (not sure if that would be possible in NE) doesn't reflect negatively on the piece in any way, to my mind.
I think Eric has a very cogent point concerning New England Fowlers. One only has to look at the Hills fowlers presented on pages 69 to 77 of Grinslade's book to see the wide variety of locks & barrels, European and English. The stocks are, very obviously, New England made. Although Grinslade states that a few of the locks used by The Hills were probably made in North America, perhaps by one of the Hills themselves. The furniture, who knows definitively.
Perhaps we need to come up with a new term, rather than "restock", to catagorize rifles and fowlers stocked in North America. There are more than a few very experienced collectors of early American built longarms on the ALR Forum, I'm not one of them, who may want to consider this subject.
To Mike Brooks' excellent point, which I believe he has given more than once, Tom Grinslade's book is essential to understanding fowlers.
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I understand the point and I believe that in the case of this piece particularly, "restock" is likely a poor descriptive, or at least a somewhat misleading one. Rich's note above about a "composite gun" is right on imho - "composite" I think is a much more applicable here. The term 'restock' seems to have attracted some negative baggage, although not really sure why.
As we all know, prior to the Federal period, the idea of a lone gunsmith or shop making all of the components of a rifle or fowler is somewhat of a romantic fallacy most of the time. Purchased parts were easily available, recycled parts were easily available. The majority of the components here appear to be pretty straightforward French. Whether they were on another arm previously or if they somehow were 'purchased new' (not sure if that would be possible in NE) doesn't reflect negatively on the piece in any way, to my mind.
I think Eric has a very cogent point concerning New England Fowlers. One only has to look at the Hills fowlers presented on pages 69 to 77 of Grinslade's book to see the wide variety of locks & barrels, European and English. The stocks are, very obviously, New England made. Although Grinslade states that a few of the locks used by The Hills were probably made in North America, perhaps by one of the Hills themselves. The furniture, who knows definitively.
Perhaps we need to come up with a new term, rather than "restock", to catagorize rifles and fowlers stocked in North America. There are more than a few very experienced collectors of early American built longarms on the ALR Forum, I'm not one of them, who may want to consider this subject.
To Mike Brooks' excellent point, which I believe he has given more than once, Tom Grinslade's book is essential to understanding fowlers.
I only called the gun a restock because ALL the parts on it are from ONE earlier french gun. This is not a bad thing, in fact I find the gun more interesting because of it. MANY NE guns used pre used parts, but FEW are made from parts all from the same donor gun. I'd love to repop this gun one day.
Now, if you find a 1770 Dickert rifle that was restocked in 1840 it would be a far less desirable collector piece. Sort of an apples and oranges thing.
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I only called the gun a restock because ALL the parts on it are from ONE earlier french gun.
I suspect you may be correct although without seeing it or dismantling it (not a good idea imho, noted above) I don't know if I could say that for certain. But don't get me wrong I agree with you in every other way. I'm just musing on the term "restock" because it's a term that seems to have negative connotations attached in the eyes of many - probably due to the preponderance of the Dickert scenario guns and the like that you noted - and it's a term that usually requires explanation.
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Now, if you find a 1770 Dickert rifle that was restocked in 1840 it would be a far less desirable collector piece. Sort of an apples and oranges thing.
Particularly if it has a black plastic stock and detachable box magazine. Old Kindig would be rolling in his grave.
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One thing I noticed initially, the wood around the breech is in good shape, hardley scorched but the frizzen has a half sole that I would assume is from extensive use.
Kevin
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It was likely soled at the time that the lock was... er, restocked... um, 'composited...' oh I give up.
But seriously, given that everything on it appears French and it all very well may have come from a single arm, you'd then assume that the lock had seen use prior to being used for this piece. If the frizzen had worn fairly well at the time of re-use, it would be natural to sole it to renew function.
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If I had to make a guess I'd say the lock doesn't even have a tumbler bridle. Tumbler bridles are highly over rated. :P
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If I had to make a guess I'd say the lock doesn't even have a tumbler bridle. Tumbler bridles are highly over rated. :P
Blasphemer! ;D
I don’t disagree. I see plenty of bridled old locks in just awful shape. Not sure how locks get so wallowed out in the tumbler axle holes in the lock plate and bridle. One has to go to TRS to get castings for licks without tumbler bridles, if one wants such a thing.
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Nice looking fowler. It looks to me like the parts probably all came from the same French gun. I think it's unlikely that New Englanders had access to French parts in any market. I agree with Mr. Pierce that the French influence probably came about because of Louisburg, but it was in 45', during King Georges War, and then maybe again in 1755. That was the catalyst for the French style in New England guns. I do think there were smiths in N.E. that were capable of making parts as fine as that, but only when they were "forced" or paid to. It is definitely not a Hills gun, and was most likely made close by, as it seems to be a Worcester County gun, maybe an Earle. It would be interesting to see the muzzle end, and the possibility that it was longer at one time. 42" is very short for a Rev. or earlier New England fowler. Being made for a bayonet in 1775 is also a real possibility.
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It is definitely not a Hills gun, and was most likely made close by, as it seems to be a Worcester County gun, maybe an Earle. It would be interesting to see the muzzle end, and the possibility that it was longer at one time. 42" is very short for a Rev. or earlier New England fowler. Being made for a bayonet in 1775 is also a real possibility.
Yes, it very definitely is not a Hill's fowler. The stock is not Hill's "like" at all. As you pointed out, a central Mass. fowler or possibly Rhode Island. Most New England gunsmiths lived within a radius of 50 miles of each other. New England is so small in area that it is possible, on a good day, for people in Connecticut to hear their neighbors in Mass & R.I. breathe.
Possible Hills fowler shown below.
(https://i.ibb.co/HP5HYQk/Hills-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C9RHvFT)
(https://i.ibb.co/bdshJdw/Hills-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h8B5f8Q)
(https://i.ibb.co/2SkcScp/Hills-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/f9xr9rT)
(https://i.ibb.co/3WVZDTv/Hills-6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Cv4Gkw6)
(https://i.ibb.co/vvSZNNL/Hills-10.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/WWV1s2h/Hills-11.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/qB2RwSj/Hills-12.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Yep, sure looks like a Hills animal, but it is unusual to see a return scroll in the rear of their guards. Do you think the nose band is original to it? That's a nifty looking one.
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Yep, sure looks like a Hills animal, but it is unusual to see a return scroll in the rear of their guards. Do you think the nose band is original to it? That's a nifty looking one.
It has been pretty well established, and demonstrated in the photos in Grinslade's book, that the Hills apparently used whatever components were available. For instance, a Hills dual purpose fowler #NE37 in Grinslades book, has a triggerguard bow with a "return". Additionally, the arm is signed on the buttplate tang, "MEDAD HILLS". I'm hoping you have Tom's book to see what I'm referencing.
Hills fowler NE40 also has a return in its triggerguard bow.
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Grinslade NE 34 (pg 68) has a lock that looks very much like the one on the found fowler.
There is a small rivet below the pan that corresponds with a hole.in the plate on the found gun.
Any idea what that is for?
Kevin
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I have Tom's book, and a few of my Hills guns are in it. I was not inferring that it was not correct, I was stating that it is uncommon to see that scroll on the back of their guards, that's all. It does not show up on their F&I guns, it is a later detail in their case. I am still curious about the muzzle band.
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The rivet/hole below the pan is most likely for a mainspring screw. A lot of English locks have a notch that holds them in place under the pan, most continental locks have a screw that goes though the plate.
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I have Tom's book, and a few of my Hills guns are in it. I was not inferring that it was not correct, I was stating that it is uncommon to see that scroll on the back of their guards, that's all. It does not show up on their F&I guns, it is a later detail in their case. I am still curious about the muzzle band.
Your are fortunate to have some Hills longarms, wish I could say the same.
I used to live south of Goshen about 15 miles or so. Went up to Goshen many, many times for the fall fair and the Scottish Festival. Caught quite a few native brookies in the West Branch of the Bantam river which was south of town and hung out at a Goshen firearms store, Autumn Gunworks. I used to ask some of the locals about the Hills and where they lived in Goshen. I received many blank stares.
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I hesitated to jump in on this conversation regarding the stocking originality. However, in my experience examining similar fowlers here in New England, this one is 100%. There is an original fowler, dater 1757 on the thumb piece, that I examined closely about two years ago. It, and it’s maker, had been unidentified. However, I conclusively found its maker, Barnabus Mathis from Marlborough, Mass. (central Massachusetts, where many in this "Frencvh style were made), and added it to several other fowlers made by him (1750s-1760s). He was dead by the early 1770s. So, this newly-seen fowler on this website, while somewhat similar to the example from 1757, is different in some details. This newly found one on the website is also dated 1775 on the thumb piece.
You’ll immediately see similar lines, curly maple stock, etc. The recycled iron stock furniture is similarly French. The iron butt plate, lock (replaced on the 1757 example with a later lock), iron side plate, & trigger guard are similar in form, too. And the stock form is the same. I'd love to see more of this gun "in the flesh" and see or create more photos.
Also, fine curly maple stocks are seen on numbers of New England fowlers by the 1750’s onward. In fact, we New Englanders were putting such fine-grained maple into our long guns a full generation before it is seen on PA long rifles! It may just be that the riflemen who served in the 1775-76 Siege of Boston army, seeing the appearance of such New England fowlers, desired similar treatment on future PA rifles. Now wouldn’t that idea raise the eye brows of many PA long rifle collectors??!!
I am, your humble servant, Rich C
(https://i.ibb.co/QCFgfxR/IMG-4642.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s6vf2XG)
(https://i.ibb.co/9TPjzc4/IMG-4647.jpg) (https://ibb.co/85kVTNx)
(https://i.ibb.co/SKpLt01/IMG-4650.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K9H127Q)
(https://i.ibb.co/84qrq99/IMG-4684.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Kzd2dWW)
(https://i.ibb.co/rkRjNvL/Barnabas-Mathis-fowler-1757-breech-top-V.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BL5pFw7)
(https://i.ibb.co/ryx99w6/Barnabas-Mathis-fowler-1757-escucheon-III.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DK9ddRC)
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Superb! Thanks for sharing.
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Thanks Rich, great photos and a great observation on your part about those New England Fowlers .
Bob
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Rich,
Wonderful fowler, thanks for letting us see it. I'm assuming you've researched the heck out of whomever "J STOW" was.
Also, never hesitate jumping in here. The more input we get the better for all of us.
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I suspect the "J. Stow" is Josiah Stow, of Marlborough, Massachusetts. That's the same town that Banabus Mathis, the gunsmith who made the fowler, was living in. Stow would have been 27 years old in 1757 when the fowler was made. This was in the middle of the French and Indian War in which Massachusetts Bay Colony was heavily engaged.
Josiah Stow (abt. 1730 - 1818)
Born about 1730 [location unknown]
Son of Thomas Stow and Hannah (Johnson) Stow
Husband of Ruth (Howe) Stow — married 19 Feb 1760 in Marlborough, Middlesex, Massachusetts Bay Colony
Died 28 Mar 1818 in Marlborough, Middlesex, Massachusetts, United States
[From: https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Stow-1393 ]
Regards,
Rich C
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I suspect the "J. Stow" is Josiah Stow, of Marlborough, Massachusetts. That's the same town that Banabus Mathis, the gunsmith who made the fowler, was living in. Stow would have been 27 years old in 1757 when the fowler was made. This was in the middle of the French and Indian War in which Massachusetts Bay Colony was heavily engaged.
Regards,
Rich C
Excellent!
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Very nice wall find. I've heard of guns being found in southern state house walls from around the civil war period. It's said they were hiding them from the northern troops that occupied after the war. Wonder why they were hiding guns in the walls that far north. Thanks for sharing it with us.
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A superb W PA rifle with silver wire and silver inlays was found several decades ago in the wall of a house in Sacramento, CA. Gun was from period of early to mid gold rush period. Why it was sealed up in the wall is not known nor is the owner at that time. Moral of the story keep on tearing those walls out, I guess.
Dick
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Growing up I heard several stories of folks hiding a gun in the attic or wall in an attempt to safeguard it when they left their home. I can think of two specific instances where someone returned in search of their gun. My grandfather put his childhood rifle in the attic of his parents house for safekeeping. It was a log home. It remained there until after his parents moved. His cousins lived in the house after that. I went with him to retrieve the gun. It was a rusted mess. Conclusion was that oak shingles aren’t very waterproof. I was 10 and he gave it to me. I played with it for years. I still have the rusted mess.
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I'd take that 1757 date with a grain of salt. There were alot of spurious names and dates added in the New England area to these guns in the 1920's to drive up the prices. I wouldn't even assume the thumbpiece on that gun is original work. You have to be very cautious with guns found in the New England area.
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Wonder if Jim might be interested in this for his upcoming project?
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I'd take that 1757 date with a grain of salt. There were alot of spurious names and dates added in the New England area to these guns in the 1920's to drive up the prices. I wouldn't even assume the thumbpiece on that gun is original work. You have to be very cautious with guns found in the New England area.
A usual Mike is spot on.
This sore subject was well documented in a presentation to the ASAC by F. Allen Thompson, Bulletin #44 Spring 1981, available online. I would imagine that this type of activity extended to Kentucky rifles as well.
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Growing up I heard several stories of folks hiding a gun in the attic or wall in an attempt to safeguard it when they left their home. I can think of two specific instances where someone returned in search of their gun. My grandfather put his childhood rifle in the attic of his parents house for safekeeping. It was a log home. It remained there until after his parents moved. His cousins lived in the house after that. I went with him to retrieve the gun. It was a rusted mess. Conclusion was that oak shingles aren’t very waterproof. I was 10 and he gave it to me. I played with it for years. I still have the rusted mess.
Bill please get photos of that “ rusted wreck “ posted here . Would love to see it!
Bob
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Guns "found in walls" seems to be a long-standing theme. It doesn't detract in any way from the origins, quality, and history of any of these guns but what's the deal with people supposedly sealing up guns in such a way in decades or centuries gone by? Or, is "found in a wall" a myth that has somehow grown over time? Has anyone on this forum actually found a gun in a wall or are all of these finds second-, third-, or more-hands removed accounts? Just curious - not trying to denigrate anyone or anything but I find guns being tossed into rafters, attics, basements, barns, etc. a lot more plausible.
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Old,old houses that are balloon framed have studs running from sill.to even with no firestops or horzontal framing, inside backs of closet may or.May not be sheathed. Put a gun in the back of the closet core safekeeping and it may disappear into the void.
Kevin
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what a wonderful piece. Thanks for sharing.
Bob
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Guns "found in walls" seems to be a long-standing theme. It doesn't detract in any way from the origins, quality, and history of any of these guns but what's the deal with people supposedly sealing up guns in such a way in decades or centuries gone by? Or, is "found in a wall" a myth that has somehow grown over time? Has anyone on this forum actually found a gun in a wall or are all of these finds second-, third-, or more-hands removed accounts? Just curious - not trying to denigrate anyone or anything but I find guns being tossed into rafters, attics, basements, barns, etc. a lot more plausible.
Not trying to steal the thread, but yes, the tales are true .. ..*. My late buddy was cleaning out a relative's house after the 93 year old gentleman died in 1982 and found several old muskets up in the basement ceiling rafters.
*. I was the executor of my buddy's estate when he died in 2018. He had an EXTENSIVE collection and had expertly hidden parts of it within various walls where nobody would ever have found them without tearing down his old farm house. Fortunately I knew where to look .......
(https://i.ibb.co/zP4xQj8/Screen-Shot-2021-03-01-at-8-49-10-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/kqSB5k3)
share image on whatsapp from website (https://imgbb.com/)
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It’s not just house walls that often hold a secret. One of our county museums got a new ADA bathroom during the lockdown. When they chopped into the walls, they found a collection of food cans, cereal boxes,wine bottles, articles of clothing, and general debris of human occupation. The old museum used to be the city library, which obviously had a tenant nobody knew about.
Hungry Horse
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Guns "found in walls" seems to be a long-standing theme. It doesn't detract in any way from the origins, quality, and history of any of these guns but what's the deal with people supposedly sealing up guns in such a way in decades or centuries gone by? Or, is "found in a wall" a myth that has somehow grown over time? Has anyone on this forum actually found a gun in a wall or are all of these finds second-, third-, or more-hands removed accounts? Just curious - not trying to denigrate anyone or anything but I find guns being tossed into rafters, attics, basements, barns, etc. a lot more plausible.
Not trying to steal the thread, but yes, the tales are true .. ..*. My late buddy was cleaning out a relative's house after the 93 year old gentleman died in 1982 and found several old muskets up in the basement ceiling rafters.
*. I was the executor of my buddy's estate when he died in 2018. He had an EXTENSIVE collection and had expertly hidden parts of it within various walls where nobody would ever have found them without tearing down his old farm house. Fortunately I knew where to look .......
(https://i.ibb.co/zP4xQj8/Screen-Shot-2021-03-01-at-8-49-10-AM.png) (https://ibb.co/kqSB5k3)
share image on whatsapp from website (https://imgbb.com/)
Shazam! Jackpot!!
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Consruction on our current house started in 1903 and it was on the tax records as a residence in 1905.
When my grandfather removed a section of wall to enlarge the living room we found a high water mark
at the level of the light switch.No guns or skeletons.Huntington has been flooded twice in the 20th century
and the years were 1913 and 1937 so I know this house once had high water in it but don't know if
the high water mark was from 1913 or 1937.
Bob Roller
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Nope...the thread has not been "stolen" at all. To the contrary, that's exactly the kind of input I'm interested in. It has no bearing on the rifles/guns necessarily but we're all very familiar with family stories and attributions, and general legend and lore. We see it on Antiques Roadshow all the time and being a career archaeologist/historian, I see it all the time in my line of work. For example, a tremendous number of houses in the east are supposed to have been stops on the Underground Railroad. Comparably, an awful lot of old houses out here on the Left Coast end up with Pony Express associations. If all of them actually were stops, the mail never would have made it through! Far more often than not they're romantic stories passed down through multiple generations lending them an air of authenticity.
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There is a story around town, Florence Al, that some folk were remodeling an antebellum house down town, tore down a wall and found a complete mummified union solder in the wall, in uniform with his rifle.
Don't know if it is true, if so he messed with the wrong folk when the union army occupied the town.
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There is a story around town, Florence Al, that some folk were remodeling an antebellum house down town, tore down a wall and found a complete mummified union solder in the wall, in uniform with his rifle.
Don't know if it is true, if so he messed with the wrong folk when the union army occupied the town.
That did, in fact, happen in a downtown B&B across from my home in Savannah, GA, except is was a fully outfitted Union cavalryman, sword and all.
We humans are indeed an odd lot. Best way to find a hand tool that you've lost, is to go out and buy a new one to replace it. You'll find that 'lost' tool, in short order. Who amongst us, has this not happened to?
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I have a rifle that was found in a wall in a house here in Alabama. I feel certain the rifle was hidden during the time of the civil war. The rifle was found during a renovation of the old home to turn it into part of a Christian Academy. There was a article written up in the local newspaper about the rifle being found in the wall. I acquired the rifle from the gentleman that had been given the rifle by the renovator. So finding a gun in the walls of old homes is a real thing. I also had a NE Fowler that was made by Lemual Leland and it was stocked up in Cherry using French parts. Were these parts from an earlier gun, I don't know and could really care less, it is a great Fowler, nothing can take away from that. This Fowler also had the owners initials on a thumb piece, sorry I cannot recall the initials, I sold the Fowler to a fellow collector. I did give him the research that I did on the owner. One interesting thing I found out about the original owner was that his occupation was listed as being a "Gentleman". Anyway the Fowler in this thread is a great gun. If it was stocked using earlier French parts so be it, that does not take anything away from the piece. There were many guns being built during this time frame using earlier parts, especially militia guns. I would be proud to be the owner of any of them. So any of you guys wanting to get rid of them junky old restocks, just send them my way.
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I have a rifle that was found in a wall in a house here in Alabama. I feel certain the rifle was hidden during the time of the civil war. The rifle was found during a renovation of the old home to turn it into part of a Christian Academy. There was a article written up in the local newspaper about the rifle being found in the wall. I acquired the rifle from the gentleman that had been given the rifle by the renovator. So finding a gun in the walls of old homes is a real thing. I also had a NE Fowler that was made by Lemual Leland and it was stocked up in Cherry using French parts. Were these parts from an earlier gun, I don't know and could really care less, it is a great Fowler, nothing can take away from that. This Fowler also had the owners initials on a thumb piece, sorry I cannot recall the initials, I sold the Fowler to a fellow collector. I did give him the research that I did on the owner. One interesting thing I found out about the original owner was that his occupation was listed as being a "Gentleman". Anyway the Fowler in this thread is a great gun. If it was stocked using earlier French parts so be it, that does not take anything away from the piece. There were many guns being built during this time frame using earlier parts, especially militia guns. I would be proud to be the owner of any of them. So any of you guys wanting to get rid of them junky old restocks, just send them my way.
It is rather common for NE fowling guns to be made from old parts from French guns, be they one old French gun or several. It isn't meant to be a disparaging thing to point this type of thing out.
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It's a lovely fowler but I often wonder about these "found in a wall" stories, especially here in New England. My experience with 18th century houses (mine was built in 1703) is that they do not have hollow walls. You'd have to assume that they were walled up when they were already old and, for the most part obsolete.
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I lived in New England for 55 years where stories abound about "thrifty yankees" being very frugal, most of which are true. My personal opinion is that no New Englander would hide a firearm in a wall. They would either have it repaired, sell, or trade it for as much as they could get.
It makes a nice story but, that's probably all it is.
The fowler in question is a great piece and does not need a story to enhance it. Would that it were mine.
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The fowler was found in an old family farmhouse in upstate NY. Balloon framing was popular and practical and an opening in floor at the back of a closet allowed the "old fashion" rifle to drop and stay until a decades later renovation.
Luckily, for us it wasn't messed with but wrapped up and put back in a closet in the thirties where it stayed until the current owner got back from Vietnam and inherited it from his family and he put it in a gun sock and put it back in a closet.
Like most of us he is aging and looking at his stuff and appreciating it's history and wanting to know more about this bit of family history.
Kevin
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It's funny you mention balloon framing because from the time I was probably 9 or 10 all through high school and into my early 20s, I worked with my dad and uncle who were 3rd gen house builders. We did a lot of renovation work on ballon frame houses but pretty much all we ever found in walls were a LOT of empty liquor bottles, we assume from guys hiding it from their wives, and also a few times, some weird 1930s through 1950s 'dirty' paperbacks - also assumed to be ditched there by guys hiding it from their wives ;D ;D
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The fowler was found in an old family farmhouse in upstate NY. Balloon framing was popular and practical and an opening in floor at the back of a closet allowed the "old fashion" rifle to drop and stay until a decades later renovation.
Luckily, for us it wasn't messed with but wrapped up and put back in a closet in the thirties where it stayed until the current owner got back from Vietnam and inherited it from his family and he put it in a gun sock and put it back in a closet.
Like most of us he is aging and looking at his stuff and appreciating it's history and wanting to know more about this bit of family history.
Kevin
That makes a lot more sense, it was not intentionally hidden in a wall rather it "slipped through the cracks". Your friend has a great deal to appreciate with this fowler.
When I returned home in 1970, I could not find the baseball I caught at a spring 1959 Pirates-Milwaukee Braves game. I should return to that apartment to see if its still there! The ball was hit by Roberto Clemente, wish I still had it.
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(https://i.ibb.co/Y0y0QWS/E8181-C8-D-C976-4090-989-C-4-BF8-F463-E8-F4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Sfdfyxg)
(https://i.ibb.co/VtKjGTK/2-A52-AB7-D-8008-4-B21-8743-89503-B3-F9352.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xbw2Ptw)
(https://i.ibb.co/1d4qXZy/3-D120-EF7-3-BA8-4-E3-A-B34-E-8380-F0079-AC7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BrYZ6LW)
(https://i.ibb.co/JsG9WbX/3-F326-AC4-6-CB6-4849-8025-59-A8091-D5-B9-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QKT47qs)
(https://i.ibb.co/Rv438QM/5-C0-D4-E98-2-A20-46-EF-8459-A304041464-D6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LkhxK9q)
(https://i.ibb.co/8MkVrj4/CDC80837-D261-4-F93-9979-FE238-BE7743-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6YQ5H4J)
(https://i.ibb.co/3BWT3xD/C15-A92-CA-0143-4406-94-B0-4326-ECBEE1-BE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FgJhrQS)
(https://i.ibb.co/bQDM6X1/58996-E24-2847-40-A0-A49-C-C9-AD97-A64869.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NtbdFKx)
(https://i.ibb.co/Mn8FXcR/A2643659-5-FC1-454-A-8-FA9-AEF155-D36428.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y0hH368)
(https://i.ibb.co/DMdcJBc/D804-D7-FB-A09-F-465-A-A52-B-B631-A3-C4-D954.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hd0Q6GQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/3k4vQgd/150-F25-DA-9-FDB-445-A-BFB4-D8-B7-E99-A1-E71.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cxkwV43)
(https://i.ibb.co/pjbbdGD/EFFD4343-C781-4316-B4-A8-40-E7488-D8-E00.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CKmmQNd)
(https://i.ibb.co/Sc5T3ZR/D805-A63-B-9773-42-DA-90-D8-977-AB2-DB6995.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cwk5rsD)
(https://i.ibb.co/G9D4thH/65-F6-EE2-C-0-A68-47-C0-AA58-20662154973-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bFVM2fb)
(https://i.ibb.co/dfChYBR/62-DF22-A3-32-B3-4-A6-C-BB8-F-FF11-F1-AD6748.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tHjdrB9)
(https://i.ibb.co/wcSst67/E06953-BC-6-E55-424-E-87-D7-CA10-B96-E3-D5-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BnyNksG)
(https://i.ibb.co/c8WvhdX/CB8-E29-CF-5-BDB-42-C9-BD01-F779-C44-A96-A5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rpBt2Jf)
(https://i.ibb.co/3pzhkZs/3-AAFF35-A-7759-46-E5-B9-CF-D6-AD93-EF65-F5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PcQCtHY)
typewriter font copy paste (https://usefulwebtool.com/)
Pick this up a couple weeks ago its had a few repairs done too the stock, and it has a replacement lock on it (would love to find a original to complete this piece of history ) if you all could Help me find more information on it ,there is not much online that i could see . It has one small makers mark on barrel with a crown over top of AM i think, 44 1/4 “ barrel ,octagon to round .62 caliber , no rifling . Thank you all ahead of time ! Looking forward to all the insight !!
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Great looking looking
pool cue fowler. Do you have a full-on photo of the current lock, barrel markings, and spec's on the fowler?
Thanks for letting us share the gun.
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(https://i.ibb.co/0qh0GF1/08-FD37-DE-9-C75-4-F3-E-9-F00-3-D292570222-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NxZ0ymf)
(https://i.ibb.co/25qBpSV/D90-C7-D59-91-F4-4-A6-D-B663-A8832-D6569-C8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R72WJNr)
It has one small makers mark on barrel with a crown over top of AM , Thats the only makers mark on the entire rifle . 44 1/4 “ long barrel ,octagon to round .62 caliber . Its 100 percent reproduction lock . Thanks !!!
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(https://i.ibb.co/gS0J3zt/D92-BD42-D-2-F95-4378-A3-EF-5-FC260-F5168-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jyCDTg3)
(https://i.ibb.co/8KKM9ZH/1-A2549-E6-2752-4472-B7-AD-1991-B4-D661-E1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Fxx6zTF)
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Check out New England Fowler NE 34, page 68 of Grinslades Flintlock Fowlers book having an original French lock, for an idea of what may be appropriate.
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What do you think the date on this rifle is ? And im having trouble finding that ?
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Could you send me a link ?
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Tom Grinslade's book is available on Amazon Books.
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Thanks for your time sir !
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This is a higher end sporting gun in my view. It likely had a round faced lock, mirrored on the sideplate. It would be difficult and very expensive to find an original lock that’s appropriate. Plates 95-98 in Torsten Link’s “the Flintlock: It’s Origin, Development, and Use” show guns very much in this style. Photography is abysmal but the research is to high standards. The guns shown are dated 1750s to 1770s.
The closest lock castings I see are from a Poser Jaeger #653 from The Rifle Shoppe. That lock seems very much of French styling. The bottom edge of the lock plate is pretty straight.
TRS #703 French Flintlock Fowler lock has a slight belly on the lockplate where the frizzen spring attaches. If you’d mortise is like that, this would be an excellent choice.
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Thanks!
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Thanks!
If you want me to take pictures out of catalogues etc let me know and we can PM to get them to you.
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Yeah those books are pricey 😂
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(https://i.ibb.co/mHDc1k8/C98-D2-F0-F-EA17-4013-8-BBE-DBECF2-A3-C689.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tbmJkgX)
(https://i.ibb.co/fFpvfXC/B53-AFC97-4-B0-F-40-BC-9-B81-2234-DAB26253.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LRt5m0C)
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Under lock on barrel ?
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You know, it sure looks like some form of checkering on the wrist of the latter Drake fowler. Don't know how to account for the odd pattern if not checkering. Nice gun and makes a great centerpiece to any collection. Thank you for posting the photos.
Dick
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When you say later drake fowler like 1770 to 1790
Ish ?
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(https://i.ibb.co/J2xb24q/D19-B1-C18-6467-41-F1-90-A2-567-E2-C68-B933.png) (https://ibb.co/Mp8jp4f)
(https://i.ibb.co/PN6FYv4/F29737-E0-F7-AB-4-FEA-84-CD-1-EA1-FEE9-E099.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/yXZc0b3/60-D34-DDA-144-F-42-E7-A36-A-1-B18-A3-D84-B0-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W6M4nYT)
(https://i.ibb.co/DMDxJVh/2-AA6-DC0-E-88-B5-4-FF2-88-B8-932-DAF414-CB6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hdRP67b)
(https://i.ibb.co/jr9zYKf/6-A912-BB1-BF33-4875-8487-D0-BECBC06-DE9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/crKw953)
(https://i.ibb.co/XbrbLj2/8299445-E-B7-DE-4625-9150-B1889-C39974-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0cRc2mD)
Found these online
(https://i.ibb.co/qnbhXXZ/9646-E005-DFDE-42-C8-BA00-5-F1-EB32-FA321.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sPLckkB)
(https://i.ibb.co/2ZHRZLw/7-E72-A734-5-F72-4-A78-A2-B6-0053-EDF708-B9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wcj8cbT)
(https://i.ibb.co/fHtW8xh/161-BCB1-D-5142-488-B-8-BA0-64-DB2-CAFF466.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bXLVHKS)
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Seems a bit small for a wall gun.
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Louisburg was one chapter of early history, but the northeast was a skirmish zone for a long time prior to 1750. The french were providing Native Americans with weapons and encouraging them to harass english settlers since the earliest settlements. Given the fact that all of the period firearms were single shot, combat was invariably hand to hand and a lot of guns were probably broken and un-useable. Broken stocks were thrown away, but a lot of New England guns were fitted with French locks and furniture. After the French and Indian war, English parts and ,to a degree, American parts became more prevalent.
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I noticed that the barrel was 42 inches. Did it show signs of being shortened? As a fowler, I might guess the barrel would have been longer.
Al
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Good question Al. To that I would like to ask if there is a bayonet lug near the muzzle? I looked at the photos again and I can't tell if it is set to take a bayonet, or not
Dick
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If your talking about the original posted fowler it appears to have.been cut down and based.on thimble spacing measurements possibly an original barrel length of 48"
Kevin