AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Maineshops on February 26, 2021, 04:41:59 PM
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How do you stab in around sharp curves and what kind of tool would I use.. . I’ve watched a couple of tutorials and that is not clear to me. Thanks dan
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Dan, when you are cutting the lines you've drawn to make the initial cut into your design and you come to a sharp radius, it often better to push your blade straight down and make "stabs" into the wood to follow the radius rather than
Drag the blade through the radius, thus giving you better control to follow the drawn lines.
Here are the " traditional tools" i use to make my first cut in relief carving. I understand other folks use gouges of assorted radii to make clean cuts, but these are the tools i use.
(https://i.ibb.co/LzwPxpk/IMG-20210226-085656186.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3yXsphr)
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Here is a link to the little stabbing in chisels from Gary Brumfield's Flintriflesmith web page. http://www.flintriflesmith.com/ToolsandTechniques/shopmadechisels.htm These little guys work great. There is also another page on the tools Gary uses for carving. http://www.flintriflesmith.com/ToolsandTechniques/tools_carving_class.htm
David
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Several tutorials in our tutorial section. Here’s one. https://americanlongrifles.org/PDF/Gunstock_Carving_Technique_Called_Stabbing.pdf
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Thanks much for the information. I wasn’t sure how you avoided the “stepping”” but by rolling the tool rather than tapping straight down you pretty much eliminate that. Now I’ll see if I can apply that with old eyes and hands. ...still having fun though. Dan
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Huh... Just looked at the tutorial that rich posted, i guess i was way off base of what the op was after. Sorry.
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Just to pile on with what David and Rich pointed out with the tutorials, gouges of various sizes can also be used to address sharp curves. Also, the point about “rolling” or “chocking up” (taking a small bite at a time) when doing tight curves helps eliminate “steps”, or flat spots.
This is some carving I did last week around a tang. The design was done entirely by using the tools shown, with the exception of a really small gouge that was used for the tips of the “flowers”.
(https://i.ibb.co/3MgCHYX/ED009-F0-A-AA8-F-4600-BDCE-15-BD16-D69-DF0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F0RDtqv)
The background wood is relieved with flat chisels
(https://i.ibb.co/WcWMpfB/4-D7-E014-E-B2-C9-4-D72-A5-AF-10-F0-E92-FD825.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8jDf49P)
Next, the background is scraped, and if the rest of the stock is sanded, then sanded. Lastly, the carving is modeled.
(https://i.ibb.co/LR7J4V7/244-D4-EF9-0-CC9-4099-91-D6-1-DCC09-BCA1-F8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XLR3mcR)
My apologies if that was a little more than what you were looking for! Best,
Ed
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Very nice!
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Nice examples of professional carving should never be consider too much or more than we were looking for......
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Dan, It looks to me that a lot of people are using palm driven chisels. My preference is for longer handled chisels that I can drive with a rawhide mallet or chasing hammer. I can never get a palm chisel/graver to stop where I want it to. It seems like it's usually 1/2"+ later. I use a combination of veiners, gouges, and very narrow straight chisels to stab in. You would be surprised at how tight of a radius can be done with a 1/6" wide straight chisel. I do the relieving with a skew chisel followed by scraping and sanding. You'd be surprised what you can do with cheap emery boards that are trimmed to shape.
Dave
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Ed, thank you for sharing examples of your beautiful carving and the tools you use. It is very helpful to see the different tools that people use on their work.
Cheers Richard
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I think I’ll have to go with the palm tool type because with macular I need strong magnification that shortens my focal length. All advice and help is valuable to a novice. Dan
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Sharpening gouges to a nose profile can be advantageous in fitting small tight curves.
Jim
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When stabbing one challenge is keeping the depth even. A chisel stabbing cross grain and the same chisel stabbing parallel to the grain will cut to different depths with the same force. In stabbing it's easy to go deeper than needed. Just practice on scrap pieces.
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Where do/did you carvers get your patterns ??
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These are homemade tools that I push into the wood, and then roll along line of the design. make short advances, and because the tools are rounded, any 'faceting' disappears.
(https://i.ibb.co/52P7F6m/Cut-by-rolling.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CWfr2zg)
Larger tool for large radius cuts, down to small tip for tighter curves. A 'U' shaped gouge or two will do tiny radii better than these stab tools.
(https://i.ibb.co/0QHvLVH/DSC-2568.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6NjLSJj)
Here the tool with its corresponding stab marks.
(https://i.ibb.co/c8r0wXR/DSC-2571.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JpsVqF8)
I hope this helps.
Tom
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Where do/did you carvers get your patterns ??
Big pile of books!
Kindig’s “Golden Age”
Shumway’s Rifles in Colonial America volumes 1&2
Many others.
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I think I’ll have to go with the palm tool type because with macular I need strong magnification that shortens my focal length. All advice and help is valuable to a novice. Dan
Surgical loupes will get you good magnification with near arm length working distance.
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Where do/did you carvers get your patterns ??
The books Rich mentions are not 'pattern books' per se; you've got to look at the photos of the guns and make an interpretive drawing.
Many have been daunted by this process; but have worked their way through it successfully. Make a drawing, and post it back on the ALR. Others will see what you don't. It's very useful to have others look at what you're thinking about doing, and getting the feedback.
It's best to get the feedback BEFORE you cut the design. ;D
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Surgical loupes will get you good magnification with near arm length working distance.
Has anyone here used surgical loupes? If so, what’s your level of satisfaction and general assessment of them? Where did you get them and what did you have to pay?
Thanks
Jeff
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Jeff..., I’ve experimented with surgical loupes. I just couldn’t get comfortable with them. I started with Optivisor type magnification, and think that’s why the loupes didn’t really click with me. I found it awkward to work at basically arms length when I was so accustomed to working closer to the subject. I know at least a couple guys who really like them, so take what I say with a grain of salt. You can get them with various focal lengths, so I might have been more comfortable with a shorter length.
Loupes can get pricey, like upwards of $600 pricey, although you can certainly get them much cheaper. A quick search on Amazon, or the web in general will give you an idea. Obviously, if you could get your hands on a pair to try, you’d get an idea as to how they might work out for you. Like I said, I just didn’t get what I felt to be a decided advantage with Loupes, but that’s just me. Best,
Ed
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As Acer said the books are a reference and guide for your interpretation. On a carving I recently did I probably drew over fifty sketches of a shell before I was happy with the interpretation. I’ll pass on a few tips that really helped me. One is to use tracing paper...a lot. My carving was to be in the tang area so I taped the tracing paper so it cover part of the wrist, both side by the top of the lock/side plate and up to include about an inch of the barrel. Then drew a centerline from the center of the top bbl flat, though the center of the tang and down onto the wrist. After that I traced the outline of the tang, the end point of the bbl and the top edge of the lock/sideplate molding. This tracing establishes the area for the sketches to be drawn. I then copied the sketch at two times actual size and make my drawings on those 2x sheets of regular copy paper. I use my eraser...a lot. When you get a drawing that looks good to you, put a piece of tracing paper over the drawing and make an accurate tracing then copy that. What you will have is a clean drawing. At this time I usually walk away from the drawing for a day and then come back and look at it with fresh eyes and if I need to correct some lines I use the tracing paper and make the corrections on that. Basically I’m tracing the good parts of the drawing and redrawing the parts I want to correct. When you are happy with the drawing reduce it to normal size and transfer the drawing to the wood. It is very important to have the absolute best drawing that you can make before you transfer it to the wood, if the drawing is flawed the carving will reflect that and be flawed too.
Sorry to be long winded but hope this helps.
Richard
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Thanks Ed for the info on loupes.
Also, that’s some very fine tang carving.
Nice work,
Jeff
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The loupes are very awkward at first. It takes a few hours to get used to them. Once I got past that part they were great. I will never use a visor again.
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I’ve used loupes in doing micro-surgery decades ago. I think they may be overkill for most carving but helpful for some engraving. These were $2000 plus back then.
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The loupes are very awkward at first. It takes a few hours to get used to them. Once I got past that part they were great. I will never use a visor again.
Bill,
Can you tell us the particular model you have and where you got them ?
I sampled some cheap ones years ago that were unacceptable.
The price range I’m seeing now goes from ridiculously cheap to thousands of dollars like Rich stated.
I’m wondering at what price level they are actually usable?
Thanks
Jeff
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I got Chinese made loupes for a few hundred dollars. I would pass on the ridiculously cheap ones that you can get on Amazon. My thinking was to get cheap ones from a legitimate surgical tool company. I figured that would weed out the junk ones. I don't remember which company I got them from. I don't buy surgery stuff on a regular. Do a google search for surgical instrument supply. Most companies will sell them. Usually they are $1000+ but with a bit of searching around you can find them under $500. Even the cheap ones are rather expensive. You are not hunched over working on something only inches away. That is a big deal after a few hours of carving or engraving. I got the cheapest ones that I could find that you would actually use for surgery and the optical quality is much better than an optivisor. There is also much more depth of field. The field of view is fairly small. I can almost see the whole palm of my through it when it is in focus. It works for carving and engraving. You get larger field of view with the Ziess or Swarovski loupes but those are $4000+.
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Thanks Bill
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I carve by feel alone. No sight required.
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I carve by feel alone. No sight required.
I thought you played by sense of smell (Pinball Wizard reference).
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Made a stabbing tool. T handle gives me more control. If it works ok I’ll make a couple more with different radius’s
(https://i.ibb.co/jrfcpsL/B619-A5-ED-4-BBD-46-C3-91-E7-1-B35-FEC5-C6-D3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9rgFMSq)
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When you stab in a patch box do you screw it down and use it for a guide??
With macular degeneration magnification helps but doesn’t fix the problem . Part of what I’m looking at just isn’t there. When band sawing I cannot see the blade and the line I am following at the same time. But I have a sweet spot that I can tilt my head and see both . That spot is about half the size of a dime. So magnification pops that up a bit. Time consuming to work that way but not impossible
. .
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Don't use sense of feel in bandsaw work!
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Dan..., securing the patch box with screws and using it as a guide is a good method. Be sure to file a very slight bevel to the edges that will be inlet, and I like to use a sharp, slender scribe to outline the piece rather than a pencil. I find this works better for me, and cuts down on potential gaps. Best,
Ed
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Thanks Ed .... I find my biggest problem is that I don’t know what the heck I’m doing. I built one about 55yrs ago and have forgotten all the techniques. Hands don’t follow brain very good but I’m having fun with what I can do. I may just do patch boxes and forget the carving. Pretty nice wood and I might be trying to guild the Lilly . Dan
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You’re welcome, Dan. This is a good place do come for any questions, plenty of talented people to lend a hand. Have fun! Best,
Ed
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Dan, one of the advantages of doing it as Ed said is that with a sharp scribe or even a resharpened x-acto knife is that it leaves a physical line in the wood. I find this an advantage because i can actually hook/start the chisel in the scribed line. This might be helpful with macular degeneration.
Dave
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That is helpful Dave and I’m learning to use that a lot. One of my biggest issues is taking too big a bite in this hard old maple. Dan
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Inletting and carving, both relief and incised, is like surgery...tiny delicate precise and accurate cuts. A log cabin - not so much.