AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: louieparker on March 06, 2021, 06:29:16 PM

Title: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: louieparker on March 06, 2021, 06:29:16 PM
This gun is by Wheeler.. I may have posted this before ?? If so here it is again..  Now lets see yours... LP
(https://i.ibb.co/z2QVQJB/IMG-1771.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7pjtj4Z)

(https://i.ibb.co/1Q0Frns/63.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nmwx703)

(https://i.ibb.co/YyNk8QR/wheeler-74.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3MTNWdr)

(https://i.ibb.co/3hn7KDq/wheeler65.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5cP6ZNy)

(https://i.ibb.co/YyNk8QR/wheeler-74.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3MTNWdr)

(https://i.ibb.co/QvKzs2Z/IMG-1769.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nMLZhHT)
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: WESTbury on March 06, 2021, 06:56:05 PM
A beautiful NW Trade Gun, thanks for letting us admire and enjoy it.

Kent
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: cshirsch on March 07, 2021, 06:16:55 PM
1855 Belgian trade musket found in a cave in northern New Mexico.

(https://i.ibb.co/jbkxk1d/1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/34m8mLw)

(https://i.ibb.co/4fFCNWY/2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GJdGP7t)

(https://i.ibb.co/JmddYpj/3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pbPPHKj)

(https://i.ibb.co/YZcg3N9/4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GTWm0dw)

(https://i.ibb.co/cwgG9Sw/5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bFWSVMF)
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: louieparker on March 07, 2021, 06:43:30 PM
Chris thanks for posting this gun.. I sure like it..  Hard to imagine how it was left in that condition.  I would thing the damage was done in the cave and then left there....But who knows..  LP
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: cshirsch on March 07, 2021, 07:08:11 PM
Quote from: louieparker on March 07, 2021, 06:43:30 PM
Chris thanks for posting this gun.. I sure like it..  Hard to imagine how it was left in that condition.  I would thing the damage was done in the cave and then left there....But who knows..  LP

The broken cock is probably why it wasn't used much.  I needed to have a good trade gun lock to make molds from for my parts business so I cleaned up the 1855.  It turned out to be in excellent condition.  A friend had the exact same lock so he let me use the cock on his.  It dropped right on the tumbler like it was made for it.  The castings turned out great.  It is a very nice lock.  www.texasguntrade.com 
(https://i.ibb.co/GCkggJd/A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QYnsscJ)

(https://i.ibb.co/KFHyx1z/B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0h3JywV)

(https://i.ibb.co/RY2f8cs/C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gmyNYJf)

(https://i.ibb.co/mT4VBtY/lock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7CKdzVT)
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Notchy Bob on March 07, 2021, 07:42:17 PM
Outstanding!

I don't own an original, but I have two reproductions.  One by North Star West and the other by Caywood.  However, I never tire of seeing the old ones.

Louie, I don't think I've ever seen an original in that nice condition.  Thanks for showing it!

Chris, I have looked at the Belgian gun and lock on your website.  It's great to see these additional detail photos, including the original rear sight.  Do you sell those locks assembled and tuned, or can you recommend a lock builder who can do a first-class job with your parts set?

Thanks to both of you fellows for posting!

Notchy Bob
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: cshirsch on March 07, 2021, 09:47:11 PM
Quote from: Notchy Bob on March 07, 2021, 07:42:17 PM
Outstanding!

I don't own an original, but I have two reproductions.  One by North Star West and the other by Caywood.  However, I never tire of seeing the old ones.

Louie, I don't think I've ever seen an original in that nice condition.  Thanks for showing it!

Chris, I have looked at the Belgian gun and lock on your website.  It's great to see these additional detail photos, including the original rear sight.  Do you sell those locks assembled and tuned, or can you recommend a lock builder who can do a first-class job with your parts set?

Thanks to both of you fellows for posting!

Notchy Bob
So sorry but I just don't have time to assemble locks.  I do not have anyone to recommend at this time either.  So sorry.
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: jdm on March 08, 2021, 03:26:03 AM
This one has been on here before but one more time won't hurt . Maybe some missed it '

This an early Wheeler and sons. War of 1812 period. It looks like it may have had some Native American use.The but is cut out at the comb.

(https://i.ibb.co/DWKHFfM/IMG-0272.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GpP4DQM)




(https://i.ibb.co/G3ZPwjQ/IMG-0276.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TqQhX5M)

(https://i.ibb.co/4Z0FW63/IMG-0277.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QFxJ92t)

(https://i.ibb.co/980pSJf/IMG-0284.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZLrf73w)
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Robert Wolfe on March 08, 2021, 03:32:32 AM
Love that percussion hammer and the decoration on it.
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: lexington1 on March 08, 2021, 03:48:28 AM
Here is mine. I have no idea who made it but it has Birmingham proofs. Also has a sitting fox on the barrel
(https://i.ibb.co/BqGrN8C/152840648-835292560536278-8984609943192323638-o.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nzBnChL)


(https://i.ibb.co/Zh4THbr/152859017-835292710536263-9014952230720031351-o.jpg) (https://ibb.co/19y2s4N)  Sorry for the terrible pictures
 

Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: lexington1 on March 08, 2021, 05:24:14 AM
Here is what is left of a Leman trade gun.
(https://i.ibb.co/RP4wZ9f/154196283-835833723815495-7899292733225222729-o.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BjKMdtb)
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: louieparker on March 09, 2021, 12:57:38 AM
JDM and Lexington thanks for posting your trade guns.. I see both of them have smith made hammers.. Some collectors call that a frontier conversion. I don't know if that is true or not, but I like the sound..  I like the Leman parts also.....LP
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Hudnut on March 09, 2021, 04:50:07 AM
Quote from: jdm on March 08, 2021, 03:26:03 AM
This one has been on here before but one more time won't hurt . Maybe some missed it '

This an early Wheeler and sons. War of 1812 period. It looks like it may have had some Native American use.The but is cut out at the comb.

(https://i.ibb.co/DWKHFfM/IMG-0272.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GpP4DQM)




(https://i.ibb.co/G3ZPwjQ/IMG-0276.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TqQhX5M)

(https://i.ibb.co/4Z0FW63/IMG-0277.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QFxJ92t)

(https://i.ibb.co/980pSJf/IMG-0284.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZLrf73w)

It most definitely had Native American use.  The I/l\D mark is that of the Indian Department of the British Army.  The musket would have been supplied to one of HM Allies during the 1812 War period.
I have one so branded, which came out of Brant County, Ontario, so had probably been issued to one of Joseph Brant's Mohawks.
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Rajin cajun on March 09, 2021, 05:14:30 AM
Louie, this one belongs to my son-in-law Charlie Bourgeois. It has a 3 bolt lock, country type hammer conversion, circle fox on lock and barrel. A couple of mine will be posted tomorrow.

Bob
(https://i.ibb.co/Rg5RWHh/8-DA977-CF-863-B-4-C92-B20-C-79-D549810-D3-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/grnkCgv)

(https://i.ibb.co/wp05pgX/1-AB617-F0-FB17-477-B-A97-D-E9-D6-F4-B0-B97-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SVsFVy8)

(https://i.ibb.co/609Hprs/36-F43821-8-E5-D-4376-8-F92-D017-B3-B15-A08.jpg) (https://ibb.co/whGSbB6)

(https://i.ibb.co/bX3qDhN/2-BCA583-C-65-D0-4-F54-BD62-E51-A83-B7-CC18.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5L9twDs)

(https://i.ibb.co/xMcygL9/4-D91-FCF0-7-BD0-44-EF-8468-AAD851156-F2-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sFDh1Rx)

(https://i.ibb.co/fpvQg91/06-FDFB90-8301-42-F8-BD72-FA609-FB94-FD4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SnrJjcs)

(https://i.ibb.co/zr8yyJq/A9763519-E560-4-E9-F-A95-D-2-DA0-B54-A7-AF1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vHs77Y0)

(https://i.ibb.co/F8v7CsN/956822-BB-30-B5-4-CA2-9-FE9-03-E911-CA016-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/P1pC0T3)

(https://i.ibb.co/JpMCd1G/A7044704-D79-F-4827-89-C2-AC62-FD10-CABB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qgPxnSc)

(https://i.ibb.co/jv1CN2K/75005-B72-5657-4923-801-A-8-A25-C8-D858-A2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vxKNFG5)

(https://i.ibb.co/Y36G7h9/DF098553-E451-477-D-8-B98-0-A7531-A747-E4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DtNnDQX)
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: utseabee on March 09, 2021, 05:27:33 AM
I like these more and more every time I see them. I hope to add one to my collection some day.
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: jrb on March 09, 2021, 04:59:03 PM
Great thread, Thanks everyone, who posted photos.
In Hanson's "Encyclopedia of the fur trade-Firearms", he shows a surprising number of northwest guns that have the stock comb cut like the one JDM shows in his post above. My first thought was, they did it to tuck the stock up under their armpit to more easily carry the gun while they were on horseback ???  ?
JDM's gun even has the right side of the stock beveled at the cutout area, so it seems that it was not done to stop cheek slap when the gun was fired.?
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Mike Brooks on March 09, 2021, 05:58:00 PM
NOT a NW gun, but I believe a trade gun all the same. Definitely  made to a particular pattern, take a look at Hamilton's trade gun book and have a look at the 'Duncan" gun. Exactly the same except for some very minor variations in the engraving. You'd think by the mounts this is a 1760's gun, but it isn't. With the Ketland & Co lock it dates probably around 1790-1815, probably for the war of 1812...or not ??? 48" 20 bore barrel. The lock is bridle-less inside and out. probably weighs 5 1/2 lbs or so.
(https://i.ibb.co/DVZdZ9C/duncan1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0Dx5xCM)

(https://i.ibb.co/gd7g35L/duncan2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BGPstX5)

(https://i.ibb.co/gJvvb6g/duncan3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kX33VMc)

(https://i.ibb.co/zx8vTs9/duncan4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JtxJwn6)

(https://i.ibb.co/wCSQFLm/duncan5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y56kcRj)

(https://i.ibb.co/PCVdrHM/duncan6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VBksL4x)

(https://i.ibb.co/ckSK5V3/duncan7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xXtKvdL)
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: louieparker on March 09, 2021, 07:17:24 PM
Bob ..thanks for posting Charlie's gun.. You are fortunate to have a son in law who shares your interest.
Mike, the butt plate on your gun is very similiar to the grade one guns that Johnson order in the seventeen fifties.. But they had the bow and arrow engraved on them.. A friend is bringing one of those to Princeton.  LP
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Rajin cajun on March 09, 2021, 10:00:59 PM
Quote from: jrb on March 09, 2021, 04:59:03 PM
Great thread, Thanks everyone, who posted photos.
In Hanson's "Encyclopedia of the fur trade-Firearms", he shows a surprising number of northwest guns that have the stock comb cut like the one JDM shows in his post above. My first thought was, they did it to tuck the stock up under their armpit to more easily carry the gun while they were on horseback ???  ?
JDM's gun even has the right side of the stock beveled at the cutout area, so it seems that it was not done to stop cheek slap when the gun was fired.?
JrB, the Native  Americans complained about some Northwest trade guns “didn’t have enough crook to the stock”...! What they were talking about was not enough drop to the butt stock. Some rifles from the
Astor contract  of 1829-1835 manufactured at Liege with false British name and proofs were the most complained about. Enclosed are examples in my collection of a model 1833 marked Barnett , and a Tryon chiefs grade. You can see the Tryon has over twice the drop as the Liege gun.

Bob
(https://i.ibb.co/r76Swfm/C8-E7-BA75-896-B-422-B-AFEE-888-D8120-C7-F0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xCj078D)

(https://i.ibb.co/09xjBzM/998325-B8-5894-43-DD-B102-EFB53-B2-FA390.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kDtg3P8)
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Rajin cajun on March 09, 2021, 10:06:47 PM
Sorry should have said trade gun not rifle....!
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Mike Brooks on March 09, 2021, 11:17:33 PM
Quote from: louieparker on March 09, 2021, 07:17:24 PM
Bob ..thanks for posting Charlie's gun.. You are fortunate to have a son in law who shares your interest.
Mike, the butt plate on your gun is very similiar to the grade one guns that Johnson order in the seventeen fifties.. But they had the bow and arrow engraved on them.. A friend is bringing one of those to Princeton.  LP
Well shucks. I wasn't planning on going but I will to see the Johnson gun.
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Rajin cajun on March 10, 2021, 12:37:10 AM
Quote from: louieparker on March 09, 2021, 07:17:24 PM
Bob ..thanks for posting Charlie's gun.. You are fortunate to have a son in law who shares your interest.
Mike, the butt plate on your gun is very similiar to the grade one guns that Johnson order in the seventeen fifties.. But they had the bow and arrow engraved on them.. A friend is bringing one of those to Princeton.  LP
Louie, I’m right proud of my son in law, he a great friend. He would introduce me to friends by the Indian name he gave me.
“ He who loads gun with sticks.”,   now the bug has bit him ....!
Bob
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Einsiedler on March 10, 2021, 06:01:13 AM
Thank you gentlemen!  I have enjoyed this thread and the photos!
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Rajin cajun on March 10, 2021, 03:24:05 PM
Let’s look at another one, this one a Barnett dated 1833 . It is from the 1829 contract by John Jacob Astor. This contract ran between 1829 - 1835. He had 500 a year made marked Barnett with English proofs . The Native Americans insisted they be marked that way. He had these made at a cheaper price in Belgium, English manufacture would have been more costly .
(https://i.ibb.co/vwJzJ98/5591-F89-A-00-B7-49-EB-996-E-897-F5-D3-D31-EB.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/brxC0Fh/B5-E21-ED5-7-A96-48-C0-9-A8-F-F4-D15-C207-D1-C.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/s5L2rWf/283-A3468-CF84-43-C5-942-A-17-D337-F3-D487.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/4V8vD6h/515-F2827-2-F22-4-BF6-A8-EA-DA68-C073-B4-CE.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/K7zMJy4/67-CA287-A-9416-44-B2-BCE3-1-E8602676439.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/rtYGhJ1/90-D315-F8-0-BE2-4-C0-B-953-D-84-AE1721-B558.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/dgYXpws/F4-B9-C47-D-6-C36-440-E-8-D3-D-3-F5213-EDF1-BA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/MR8jsKT/7-D3452-EF-8-AF3-4-FEC-9-D74-04-DB4-B93-BCE0.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/Hz330SX/CED7-B0-B1-795-C-4146-AFBE-A3-ADAF54-E19-F.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/h9GkhKR/D6-BEC636-40-FC-4951-8822-54581952-AFE6.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/mJnQHYX/AE33-C633-7-A86-453-C-9-CE1-7373-D0-B1-DF99.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/CwjKpyh/E02-D19-FF-1-FB0-42-EA-994-E-F3-BC849766-E8.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/TLnDsK0/8-EDD3734-6479-4-E2-B-8-A67-D60775-F736-A7.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/PZctXjR/A791-E74-C-16-D4-4-ECA-A5-A0-3190-DD84-F6-F9.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/9ZGDc2p/EB183-CC8-BE48-4-FC9-A9-C5-418812-F060-B9.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/VxYwn8m/CD2-A5-EEF-0-C87-4166-893-A-CFDC0-DF66-F0-A.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/3vGwMvy/F1-B5-CED4-C036-413-F-9-DC1-E565-B8908630.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Steve Collward on March 10, 2021, 03:32:35 PM
Here are some photos of a Wheeler & Son trade gun I posted a few years ago.  A similar example is shown in Ryan Gale's "For Trade and Treaty", pages 73-78.
(https://i.ibb.co/9tqSn4y/DSCN1240.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NSLbxNW)

(https://i.ibb.co/jTv17h8/DSCN1242.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nbs5hrw)

(https://i.ibb.co/SvTCL68/DSCN1234.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vz5ntcG)

(https://i.ibb.co/w76ddwb/DSCN1236.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C60wwMX)

(https://i.ibb.co/L1DnwhG/DSCN1235.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x6KJv84)

(https://i.ibb.co/6t8ZzM2/DSCN1239.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bvF3T0x)

(https://i.ibb.co/fD54wK6/DSCN1237.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kmfQCrb)

instagram photo full size download (https://500pxdownload.com/)
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Rajin cajun on March 10, 2021, 06:38:08 PM
American manufactured circa 1845 Chiefs grade by Tryon. Very light and well balanced, a pleasure to carry, shoulder and point. This one had the medallion of  running deer tacked on the cheek side, the ghost of the shape and 4 pin holes are still visible .  If anyone knows of one available please let me know. There were two versions a long tail, and a short tail version.  These were used by Tryon and Derringer.

Bob
(https://i.ibb.co/Tr1Fpnm/D52-E2749-863-A-4-F15-9270-923-F3022-A903.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N7rHQkZ)

(https://i.ibb.co/djR599s/8342-B035-2-F96-4665-8185-8003-C582-F14-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YPxL994)

(https://i.ibb.co/cQwwHyF/066-A6201-8-CB6-4-F44-A98-C-08-A829832523.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4p22GFT)

(https://i.ibb.co/hFV4qY4/8-D5-C6-A30-E4-A5-4121-80-EC-594-D3-D50-E741.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4RpXQ1X)

(https://i.ibb.co/FBZCkNy/A12-EFB08-69-FD-4129-9890-061475-E76-D6-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wc8jNqM)

(https://i.ibb.co/TP06HNZ/5471-DBC9-A23-B-4-F97-8193-AF4-D2133-B239.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JrpVzSN)

(https://i.ibb.co/Zxpnyqb/6-BA078-E3-64-E4-4-E06-9-B45-3544548978-A4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Wf4bSmR)

(https://i.ibb.co/Yyd2MsG/93544398-A19-E-4-EBC-8-AC5-3-C5-C94600532.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jWwh2XF)

(https://i.ibb.co/xY5mYqh/67-B88-A6-B-4063-4-CA1-B041-FDFCCCC561-D9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VxBHxYV)

(https://i.ibb.co/6FtyvXR/48-BD2136-E48-A-4-EE1-8748-F4-DCC1775595.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4pSFs1Z)

(https://i.ibb.co/ysgqBwf/DFDF0789-111-D-4-C5-C-B512-E6335-E558-F4-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3hScYDr)

(https://i.ibb.co/6FP0PnQ/F66-F0443-935-D-40-E0-9-CF1-15337-B25-A348.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BBZ2Zzk)

(https://i.ibb.co/zb6Dqfp/72-D5634-B-BE3-A-4-B54-86-DE-B9-A0475-D9827.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ctYV4T0)

(https://i.ibb.co/c6fSB04/82-B5-D50-B-6128-431-B-A731-C59-D7747-BF5-D.png) (https://ibb.co/F5ZLr2R)

(https://i.ibb.co/7Xt725h/4-AA8-E66-B-437-B-4-EF4-A5-C8-BEDB3-D6460-EE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Y3BvpMg)

(https://i.ibb.co/cXKwMpd/4-DCD550-E-BDD0-4040-8-C5-B-4-DAF84-F6346-A.png) (https://ibb.co/PzsM3b8)

(https://i.ibb.co/5rrpD1S/732-AF7-B6-ED7-C-4-E8-D-830-E-3-D7395939488.png) (https://ibb.co/8rrv3mf)

(https://i.ibb.co/JQTXRNd/C28-C6-F19-BE53-4835-B312-33600-DFE6-E41.png) (https://ibb.co/9t0R9Jv)
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: rich pierce on March 10, 2021, 06:43:47 PM
Thanks to everyone who is sharing these guns!
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: louieparker on March 10, 2021, 07:24:16 PM
Bob sorry we bombed out on the inlay. Those Tryons are not easy to find......LP
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Rajin cajun on March 10, 2021, 08:53:41 PM
Quote from: louieparker on March 10, 2021, 07:24:16 PM
Bob sorry we bombed out on the inlay. Those Tryons are not easy to find......LP
Thanks Louie,  we came close on the last one.

Bob
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: bama on March 11, 2021, 01:32:22 AM
Thanks for sharing these fine guns guys. Seeing these really helps those of us that do not have a background in this types of gun.
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: lexington1 on March 11, 2021, 03:28:59 AM
While we are talking about the deer inlay on Deringers, do you know if the inlay was just used on trade guns? I have this Deringer percussion rifle, but it looks to be too fancy to be a trade rifle. I will admit, though, I am not very knowledgeable about Deringers.

(https://i.ibb.co/h2KTv9w/20210310-172251.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wpK21gj)


(https://i.ibb.co/cYQBCYQ/aas-419-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RjcFBjc)
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Rajin cajun on March 11, 2021, 03:47:28 AM
I have seen this on other Derringer weapons, I’ve seen it on a fine highly decorated North Carolina rifle. I would imagine this medallion was sold by someone like Tryon who supplied such items to gunmakers , and gun repair shops. They are usually seen on items made for the trade. By the way nice rifle you have there.....👍

Bob
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: lexington1 on March 11, 2021, 04:01:04 AM
Thanks Bob. This rifle would be in fine condition, except someone hacked about a foot of barrel off sometime in it's lifetime. It's a shame because everything else is in super nice condition. Why, why did people do things like this?
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: jdm on March 11, 2021, 04:11:38 AM
I have seen this on fine Derringer rifles that were not trade guns. I friend has one similar to the one I've pictured  with that running deer inlay . I think his has Derringer  signed  in script under it.
(https://i.ibb.co/v3yjfTq/IMG-0342.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CbCH4Y8)
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Rajin cajun on March 11, 2021, 04:57:34 AM
Jim , nice rifle. I have a buddy in New Orleans that has a Derringer musket that has the medallion tacked on . This item is associated with both Derringer and Tryon , and seen most often on their trade weapons..
Again nice rifle you have there. Would like to see a photo of your buddy’s rifle. Was the running deer inlayed or was it tacked on as on the trade guns.

Bob
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: jdm on March 11, 2021, 05:14:30 AM
My friends gun is a city gun like this one.  The inlay looks like it was pressed from behind.

Bob after the Princeton show I would like to send you some pictures of a horn I have. It may have some connections to your neck of the woods.
 I would like your thoughts on it.
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Rajin cajun on March 11, 2021, 05:26:59 AM
Quote from: jdm on March 11, 2021, 05:14:30 AM
My friends gun is a city gun like this one.  The inlay looks like it was pressed from behind.

Bob after the Princeton show I would like to send you some pictures of a horn I have. It may have some connections to your neck of the woods.
 I would like your thoughts on it.
Thanks Jim 👍🇺🇸👍
Bob
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Rajin cajun on March 11, 2021, 03:16:43 PM
Quote from: lexington1 on March 11, 2021, 04:01:04 AM
Thanks Bob. This rifle would be in fine condition, except someone hacked about a foot of barrel off sometime in it's lifetime. It's a shame because everything else is in super nice condition. Why, why did people do things like this?
Lexington, That rifle of yours speaks, here is what it tells me ... The work that has been done on it was not 20 or 21st century work done to enhance value. This was a rifle made by a very good maker, in really nice condition with several modifications by a talented gunsmith. The barrel was shortened to accommodate use on horseback or wagon.  A very nice conversion from flint to cap lock not by nipple and drum as most but by bolster for added strength in the breach area. The rifle was modified for the task ahead of it and its owner back in the 1800’s . It has been in this configuration a lot longer than in its original form. It’s a very nice rifle just the way it is, with a lot of very good reasons of why it is in the present condition. Just remember this, some bell collectors would say ,” Oh , t’s a nice bell , but I wish it wasn’t cracked “, when speaking of the Liberty Bell. All the history lost.
Enjoy your rifle ,let it talk to you....
Bob
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: James Wilson Everett on March 11, 2021, 07:21:53 PM
Here is an English trade gun.

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Guns/English%20Trade/100_5908a.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/c9698ac6-8b99-4c27-af5b-1e3854a29901/p/e62a3a34-b39a-4863-a8ee-656e9095084e)

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Guns/English%20Trade/100_5905a.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/c9698ac6-8b99-4c27-af5b-1e3854a29901/p/16b9a6e1-0d99-40f2-9cd8-2a8f14e8712d)

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Guns/English%20Trade/100_5901a.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/c9698ac6-8b99-4c27-af5b-1e3854a29901/p/3cb5cd75-ebb5-4421-a4da-9950068933a3)

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Guns/English%20Trade/100_5900a.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/c9698ac6-8b99-4c27-af5b-1e3854a29901/p/0dd84631-7e1e-4687-9c23-5ff050c3a103)

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Guns/English%20Trade/100_5889a.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/c9698ac6-8b99-4c27-af5b-1e3854a29901/p/60e9a66e-31d6-4184-81a6-c32db2d5afe7)

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Guns/English%20Trade/100_5898a.jpg) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/c9698ac6-8b99-4c27-af5b-1e3854a29901/p/53a8d16e-c32b-4b19-b489-c273fc27587d)

English Trade Gun
LOA 52.25   LOP 13.25
Barrel LOA 37.18  Breech 1.22  Muzzle 0.72  Bore 0.56  Marked LONDON plus English proofs
Buttplate  H 4.75  W 1.75
Lockplate  H 1.18  L 6.25
Rear ramrod pipe to middle ramrod pipe  11.25 (this is the length of visible ramrod)
Middle ramrod pipe to front ramrod pipe  7.25  (this is the length of visible ramrod)

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/n514/JamesEverett/Guns/English%20Trade/100_5903a.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/JamesEverett/a/c9698ac6-8b99-4c27-af5b-1e3854a29901/p/ccaf5564-aedd-4b50-b708-692e1c7f823c)

Just a thought: The name "London" on the barrel almost guarantees that it was made elsewhere.

Jim

Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: rich pierce on March 11, 2021, 07:25:46 PM
Tell us more, Jim!
Any makers marks or proof marks? Bore and barrel length?
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Mtn Meek on March 12, 2021, 05:32:39 AM
Quote from: rich pierce on March 11, 2021, 07:25:46 PM
Tell us more, Jim!
Any makers marks or proof marks? Bore and barrel length?

Rich, it's another one of those Ketland fowlers we were discussing on the other forum with the flat floral sideplate that may be an abstract dragon or just acanthus leaves.

If you "click" on the photo [notice that "click" is lower case and not proper name], it will take you to Photobucket where Mr. Everett has more photos.  I can see the "crown" over "V" view mark of the pre-1813 Birmingham proof marks in one of the photos.

The marks on the lock have been mostly corroded away by the fulminate when it was a percussion, but one can still make out a couple letters like the "D" at the end and what looks like "% Co.". 
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Rajin cajun on March 12, 2021, 08:22:45 PM
This is an English trade piece like Jim’s. It has been shortened and converted. As they say “it been rode hard and put up wet”. Louie this is another of my son in laws Charlie’s collection..
Nice old trade gun, it has seen the buffalo!!!!
Bob
(https://i.ibb.co/kKCK9rJ/12-F35-B0-F-C4-D0-4373-8-DA6-ECBF3-A9-D6034.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0qbqFWK)

(https://i.ibb.co/FhRMd5J/25-EE41-CD-A6-E3-4-AAA-9-F23-5-A3885-B201-BA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GdzLrWk)

(https://i.ibb.co/swFWp28/CAE7-A9-ED-F39-F-4-E4-F-BB60-DED44803-F91-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z8h2RVq)

(https://i.ibb.co/w7dh11B/354-DCFA3-070-C-4-D95-84-D7-9-F598803149-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lr0dffY)

(https://i.ibb.co/KsqC7vs/A644-F6-DE-9-A8-F-4-C64-8-A49-BC9167-DC7051.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ykyL5jk)

(https://i.ibb.co/BGr7nmw/6-F5-DCD22-5-B34-43-F1-AC21-645-DB5-C5-D74-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kJ9rmpM)

(https://i.ibb.co/Ltbh7Yh/16-C4-DB7-E-BFA1-4-F23-B5-F1-35-A73-F88-D1-D4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yyGBjdB)

(https://i.ibb.co/tH3rK8x/75-E4-B388-79-ED-4612-82-AB-91-DDD0-C125-DF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7SbmC2R)

(https://i.ibb.co/3ymGfms/986628-A8-B502-4260-B182-96-A5-DB317-D93.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C5KNJKt)

(https://i.ibb.co/MDp3GXd/642-CCDC7-AC09-4283-8600-9-F4-FD4-D9860-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/992CVMP)

(https://i.ibb.co/pwxRxnd/D0-FBEA4-C-874-C-45-D4-9-EF3-96-A0-EF57-D507.jpg) (https://ibb.co/B3trtwB)

(https://i.ibb.co/f8Fkn0t/AA5-C32-BA-CBD5-4970-94-E6-A90-EF1-A0-A59-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tZKqxCc)

image hosting website (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: louieparker on March 14, 2021, 05:29:52 PM
Thanks to everyone for your post.  I have enjoyed this thread and seen some very interesting guns.. Hopefully there will be more to come.  When I look at some of the trade guns it's hard to keep my imagination from running a bit wild. Thinking about the original owner, the conditions of his life at that time and how he felt when he first acquired this gun. 
On Friday and Saturday I was at the Princeton Show.. There were some very nice trade guns there. Some going back to the French and Indian war period.  With their long 48 inch barrels they were quite impressive. Also a fine untouched Wheeler & Son .. All a pleasure to look at ..Louie
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: jruff5585 on November 11, 2022, 06:25:05 PM
Better late then never. Well she's been rode hard and put away wet, she's been converted. But I do believe she is an early Wilson. I have always wanted to have her lock fixed and reconverted. I don't want the gun restored but I want it done right. Has anyone used Munford Restoration? Or can somebody recommend someone

(https://i.ibb.co/NjkzNVC/image2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fpK7N1F)

(https://i.ibb.co/zNyp8Jj/image3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x3pWmHP)

(https://i.ibb.co/Byh9QPs/image1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F5QFyW7)

(https://i.ibb.co/FxxJM6G/image6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GxxkL7g)

(https://i.ibb.co/5Wy99gY/image0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TBSTTxK)

(https://i.ibb.co/VgpGKKc/image4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LxhyGGX)
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Bill Paton on November 11, 2022, 09:02:17 PM
jruff,
I was personally thrilled when I saw your images of this veteran still in percussion! I thought, “Hurray, she’s left as used! Her history is still intact.”
Your gun honorably shows her well-used background, giving me immediate and clear mental images of her life in the wilderness. I love her as she is.

My 88 year old mother-in-law (whom I love dearly) doesn’t look right in pancake makeup!

Respectfully, Bill Paton
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: mr. no gold on November 11, 2022, 09:29:29 PM
JR, please think long and hard before you touch your grand old trade gun. A reconversion on a tangible piece of frontier history such as this one is a minus on the value; a take away. As the physician says 'Do no harm' and returning it to flint will not really improve the look of it. Aside from that bit of unsolicited advice, thank you for posting the excellent photos. Much appreciated.
Dick
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: Rajin cajun on November 11, 2022, 10:13:36 PM
The saying is ,” If it ain’t broken don’t fix it”!
Sir don’t do a thing to that piece.

Bob
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: jruff5585 on November 12, 2022, 02:32:31 AM
Ok Done, she will stay as she is. no more needs to be said about reconverting. Thanks for your input.
Title: Re: Lets see your original Northwest Trade Gun
Post by: jdm on November 12, 2022, 02:59:56 AM
[quote author=jruff5585 l
Ok Done, she will stay as she is. no more needs to be said about reconverting. Thanks for your input.

Good decision !It's a nice old frontier conversion.  Buy the way that's a cool old gun.