AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Contemporary Accoutrements => Topic started by: DougS on March 07, 2021, 09:39:26 PM
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Hello,
As I continue my research into moccasins and shoe packs, I would like to inquire what others are using for frontier footwear?
I made the following pair of shoe packs out of bark tan deer, inspired by the original pair found at Fort Ligonier, PA.
I would enjoy seeing what others are using for footwear.
Thank you,
Regards,
Doug
(https://i.ibb.co/fHQS3WZ/SN856175.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cQxvW9R)
(https://i.ibb.co/xfWMLbj/SN856176.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s6nFR4w)
(https://i.ibb.co/1fgtsHn/SN856177.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fYgz8mS)
(https://i.ibb.co/Nn9D2DG/SN856178.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Fq5Z4Zd)
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Nice! --JB
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Good afternoon Sir; very handy craftsmanship. If I had a pair I would sport them for Sunday go to meeting. Again well done. Thanks for sharing. AJ.
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Currently Working on a pair of brain tan center seam mocs
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Basic pucker-toe center-seam made of bison split hide.
(https://i.ibb.co/QpSQCnW/Moccasins-fresh-made-greased-001.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VJn9QDF)
(https://i.ibb.co/XtpmdsN/Moccasins-fresh-made-greased-002.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6Fb6pPV)
(https://i.ibb.co/vkcmZjb/Moccasins-fresh-made-greased-005.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5L1vBRd)
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Awesome Brokkennock,
Do you use any grease on your mocs?
If so, what do you use?
Thanks,
Doug
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Awesome Brokkennock,
Do you use any grease on your mocs?
If so, what do you use?
Thanks,
Doug
Warmed them in the oven on lowest setting and applied neatsfoot oil.
Debatable if it is worth the time and effort. Maybe it buys you a few seconds/minutes before they soak through from wet leaves, wet grass, snow, etc.
These bison splits are rough on both sides which might make them soak through faster, don't know.
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Do you use any grease on your mocs?
Thanks,
I have made and worn moccasins most of my life, as far back as I can remember. Just about any type of soft leather that you use for making mocs will soak through within seconds of coming into contact with moisture: puddles, dew, rain, snow, creek, ocean, whatever. This is especially true for braintan deerskin. Grease will also darken your leather, and cause it to become "slick." (BTW, just about any mocs, greased or not, are going to be slick/slippery on grass, mud, and snow). Also, braintan buckskin is pretty durable when compared to to other leathers. This may or may not be news to some of you guys. Dunno. Many people make the mistake of thinking that elk and buffalo leather is stronger because the animal is bigger. Not true. The internal skin fibers on elk and buff are much "looser" --with a whole lot of "air" in between the fibers-- than is present in deer buckskin. So tanned elk and buffalo are not as durable as good old buckskin. I have had buffalo and elk mocs literally fall apart after wetting. (Rawhide is a different matter altogether when discussing durability. But you're probably not going to be making your mocs completely out of rawhide. My wife made a pair of "Lakota style" mocs a couple of years back: Braintan buckskin uppers with buffalo rawhide soles. They wore like iron. In fact the uppers wore out before the soles did. She wore them daily for months). I have a pair of commercial Dyer "Rendezvous Boots" purchased in CO in 1980 that have worn well. They are special English(?) cowhide leather that wears well, and is very thick. I call them my Hard Moccasins. They have been re-soled several times. I also have a pair of Kaibabs with rawhide soles that are more than 1/4" thick. I do not grease the soles on the Kaibabs, but I do use Huberd's Shoe Grease on the Kaibab uppers, and completely cover the whole surface of the Dyers. This is for leather preservation, not "waterproofing." You could also use mink oil, Dr. Jackson's, or Pecard Leather Dressing--anything to keep the leather "alive." I also have several pair of buckskin mocs that I have made, and a couple of beaded buckskin mocs that I got in various trades. (I prefer side seams over center seams, although the pattern is basically the same for both). Perhaps this is TMI.
I will post pics of my mocs a little later. --JB
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Great information guys.
Thanks,
Yes J.B. I would love to see your mocs.
Thanks again.
Doug
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made by the Wyandot Confederacy "Hunting Moccasins". These have been used for a couple of years now. Heavily coated in pure Neatsfoot oil to turn them dark, doesn't do a thing to keep out the water, yes all mocs get slippery when wet!
(https://i.ibb.co/ZVLZfhd/moccasins-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kxHdGhK)
(https://i.ibb.co/mBSqbdz/moccasins-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/H2XzBRg)
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made by the Wyandot Confederacy "Hunting Moccasins". These have been used for a couple of years now. Heavily coated in pure Neatsfoot oil to turn them dark, doesn't do a thing to keep out the water, yes all mocs get slippery when wet!
(https://i.ibb.co/ZVLZfhd/moccasins-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kxHdGhK)
(https://i.ibb.co/mBSqbdz/moccasins-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/H2XzBRg)
Mike--those look really nice. I think Crazy Crow sells them now, for anyone who is interested. --JB
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Here are *some* of my moccasins ; (the more photogenic pairs)
These are some that I bought in MI near Fort Michilimackinac about 30 yrs ago. Not worn very much.
(https://i.ibb.co/nRY7LwC/alra-mocs.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jHQyr8R)
I got these in a trade. Guy was selling them, and agreed to trade me for a knife sheath for his NW Coast dagger. They are brain tanned moose, fit me perfectly, and have Plains style beading. I don't wear them very much
(https://i.ibb.co/Q8KKynP/alra-mocs-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wJzz5CS)
These are brain tanned deer side seams. I made them a little while ago, and glued on outer soles to prolong their life. (With daily wear, soft soled mocs will last about a week, if I'm lucky. These last longer). Red Fox Braid for trim
(https://i.ibb.co/7K0jnsv/alra-mocs-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L1sYxVS)
Brain tanned side seam high tops. Made last year and never worn. (Wore my Kaibabs instead). They have wool blanket insoles, and fit perfectly.
(https://i.ibb.co/h9BQhKj/alra-mocs-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vq3ygJG)
Last we have these: Not moccasins, but some brain tanned Shoshone gloves. Made by Shoshones, and bought at Log Cabin many, many years ago (for $15. Dan tripled his $$. They still had the Fort Hall $5 price tag on them). :D
(https://i.ibb.co/VLcSs61/alra-mocs-gloves.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kGs8tZ7)
Not shown: several pair of pretty ragged center seams, Dyer Rendezvous "boots" (ankle highs), Kaibabs (again, ankle highs), my wife's buffalo mocs (really ragged, and stored in the shed somewhere).
Thanks for looking. --JB
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Very nice!
Thanks for all the information and pics guys.
Regards,
Doug
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Very nice Mr. Bigley! Exceptional work!
Just finished these. First pair I really put any effort in, in 20’years. Much more satisfied with fit and finish of left foot!
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0M0npsd/AFA7-EB9-E-A0-F7-4-DC7-A033-4-CE1448-B8-DB7.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xJpnpyyK)
Edit!!!! Just restitched right foot. Much better now!!
(https://i.postimg.cc/QdTqcM4G/0-BD1-FAE2-BFAB-4462-94-CE-2-F55-E8-B5333-E.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RWvfBvxX)
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Thanks for the kind words, Mr. Einseidler.
Your center seams look pretty cool,too! Your post makes a good point.
One of the "beauties" of making your own mocs, especially with brain tan, is that if they don't fit well at first, you merely adjust the fit by re-stitching til they do. Remember also, that mocs should fit pretty snug initially --even hard to get onto your feet at first. They will stretch and mold to fit in a very short period of time.
Since sewing mocs is tedious work, I want mine to last a while. I always glue an outer sole onto the bottoms, using a little thicker leather, and Barge cement. Not exactly HC, but worthwhile, and not very visible.
Thanks. --JB
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Thanks again Jbigley!!! I think these for now will be for more show/display. I did fit ‘em tight!!! I thought of attaching a harder sole to them too. May try that down the road.
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I made some kid (baby) mocs if that counts :D
(https://i.ibb.co/94cPs2j/IMG-20200601-135451.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R6Y8zPW)
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Those are great little mocs Hawkeye. The quillwork is really neat.
And how can this be used for shoes? If as a lining, the question is how it will affect the leather when wearing such material. It would chafe, wouldn't it? If you put it on over it, then what is the point. I would wear it around the room to show guests that I have something in deer hide. As an accomplishment. My air jordans 1 mid (https://www.forstepstyle.com/collections/jordans/air-jordan-1/) shoe probably wouldn't fit in it and I have no idea how to use it. There's pictures of people in the woods wearing it. Okay, what about stepping on rocks and small branches. That hurts the foot.
Mocs were the only shoes many, many people wore throughout history. Reverend Doddridge described wearing them as a decent way of going barefoot. Yes, they get wet, they are slippery, sticks and stones hut when you step on them. But they are what was worn back then, so that's what I wear when I reenact. You learn to walk a bit different when you wear mocs.
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This is a GREAT thread!
I have a couple pair of the Minnetonka moccasins... One pair is the ankle high "Peter Pan" style and the other the knee high boot with a crepe rubber sole. Neither is anything what I would call accurate within any period. But both are comfortable. However the ankle high pair being plain leather with no sole are deadly quiet when worn hunting. They aren't waterproof at all so wet feet are a fact of life... But I wear wool socks exclusively so that helps wet feet from chilling to a good extent.
I also have a pair similar to Muskrat Mike's that were a gift from my wife. Made by women from one of the tribes in Canada. Very nice but they too have a thin rubber sole so they aren't as quiet as the Peter Pan version. I don't remember the "brand" offhand but I'm sure that can be ascertained with a cursory search.
I have been looking at getting a pair of center seam mocs but have yet to settle on a pair. I may end up making some once a suitable material is settled on and purchased.
Mike
Edit: Link to mocassins my wife bought me... Moose hide if I remember correctly.
https://www.moccasinscanada.com/collections/mens-moccasin-boots/products/mens-moccasin-boots-crepe-sole
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Here's me stepping into a creek to set traps. Center seam mocs with double blanket liners. My feet were, um, comfortable, for the half hour I was in the water. Air temp was about 35, early December in Wisconsin. No amount of grease in the world would keep them from getting water inside, it would just make them take longer to dry out afterwards.
(https://i.ibb.co/G0N7GZx/moc-closeup.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
Mike, I have found deer skin to be best for moc's. Its very strong for being so thin. Avoid pavement and gravel. Step, don't shuffle. Center or side seam patterns are pretty easy to dial in. Once you have a pattern, it doesn't take long to make a pair. My center seams have two laces, one up the front, one up the back, and an upper that is sewn on, easy peezy.
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Lord A-Mighty I hate beadwork
(https://i.ibb.co/MBmt13n/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9Z714Cn)
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Lord A-Mighty I hate beadwork
(https://i.ibb.co/MBmt13n/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9Z714Cn)
Capgun--Do you hate DOING beadwork, or do you hate looking at it? HAR! I really like the beadwork on your right hand pair. Nice. Great dress mocs.
Also, I don't quite understand caplimilan's question; "How can this be used for shoes?"
Moccasins were/ are expedient foot coverings. Not ideal by any means. Remember, though, that frontiersmen (and maybe people in general) were not used to wearing "comfortable shoes" like we have today. We are mostly "tenderfeet." Literally. Their feet were a whole lot tougher. And they were much more acclimated to the elements than the average Joe is today. Rocks and sticks hurt the foot? Yep. the answer is to toughen your feet by going barefoot, wearing mocs, etc.
As far as waterproofing buckskin --or almost any leather, for that matter--Forget it.
I had forgotten about this thread until I saw a recent response. Glad to see it resurrected.
I'd also like to see more pictures of you moccasins. --JB
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Here's me stepping into a creek to set traps. Center seam mocs with double blanket liners. My feet were, um, comfortable, for the half hour I was in the water. Air temp was about 35, early December in Wisconsin. No amount of grease in the world would keep them from getting water inside, it would just make them take longer to dry out afterwards.
(https://i.ibb.co/G0N7GZx/moc-closeup.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
Mike, I have found deer skin to be best for moc's. Its very strong for being so thin. Avoid pavement and gravel. Step, don't shuffle. Center or side seam patterns are pretty easy to dial in. Once you have a pattern, it doesn't take long to make a pair. My center seams have two laces, one up the front, one up the back, and an upper that is sewn on, easy peezy.
Thank you for the info. I will look into getting some deer skin. I have laid off the leather work for a while in favor of getting more trigger time with all my guns, both flint and modern. But I'll get on it again one day.
Mike
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Here's my center seam, Eastern woodlands moccasins. Made of oil tanned buffalo. They are saturated with Sno-Seal, which has a lot of bees wax in it. I used the oven to get them hot and applied it until they wouldn't take any more. They have held up pretty well, but I only wear them at primitive events, and then only on grass or leaves.
(https://i.ibb.co/h8vKt5N/100-2293.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WK1cY9X)
(https://i.ibb.co/GtJ9KC8/100-2294.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MGhfYPt)
(https://i.ibb.co/b7yZh2b/100-2295.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FnfMv0H)
(https://i.ibb.co/H7LH1HJ/100-2296.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gybRHRn)
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These Senecas gave great years of service through the eighties and nineties
(https://i.ibb.co/k21b7WB/rendezvousmocs.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SwrYj9y)
Beyond a doubt, these guys are my best friends. Went on every trek and tactical in Lake George
(https://i.ibb.co/HTx4Mm0/trekkers.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yFYPMLD)
When the soles started to wear out and the feet aged beyond repair, I could not bear to part with them. So I swallowed hard and Contact Cemented a sole of 8-9 ounce cow. Then I brought them to the shoe repair guy and asked him to ..."McKay Stitych"...the hard sole. McKay stitches, similar to what is in Penny LOafers, are contained INSIDE a shoe as opposed to outside on the welt. You can barely see the stitches inside by the arch.
Then I asked him to hot glue a ..."PLANTATION CREPE"... sole on them so they would stay supple. Best move I ever made because they are great for a match or trail walk.
(https://i.ibb.co/KhWYVVB/trekkers-repaired.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZXx3ccv)
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Here are a couple of my moccasins . I made them with wrap around tops. Buckskin, with bear grease/beeswax treatment.
(https://i.ibb.co/dQRJRDS/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NLMnMKX)
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If you are gonna make a pair of mocassins without using the conventional retail packs, try to get your hands on this book;
(https://i.ibb.co/SPHh6Ym/bookcover.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rmqCQ8p)
any of you coyotes figure it'd be worthwhile for an Every-Man-A-Cobbler post on making mocassins? Or just blowing smoke?
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If you are gonna make a pair of mocassins without using the conventional retail packs, try to get your hands on this book;
(https://i.ibb.co/SPHh6Ym/bookcover.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rmqCQ8p)
any of you coyotes figure it'd be worthwhile for an Every-Man-A-Cobbler post on making mocassins? Or just blowing smoke?
I would certainly welcome a tutorial... and the chance to pester you with questions afterwards.
Mike
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Please do -- your post regarding butt seams inspired me to get White's book and sew a pair of center seams, currently working on a pair of hard sole Plains type. Not doing well posting photos. I've been hoping this thread would continue ---thank you for sharing --
Frank
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If you are gonna make a pair of mocassins without using the conventional retail packs, try to get your hands on this book;
(https://i.ibb.co/SPHh6Ym/bookcover.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rmqCQ8p)
any of you coyotes figure it'd be worthwhile for an Every-Man-A-Cobbler post on making mocassins? Or just blowing smoke?
Great book. My copy is pretty worn :)
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There is a new edition out, I have been meaning to order it to see if the updates are good or not. I don't really need the patterns as I am happy with the patterns I have from the old one. Some of the instructions are a bit vague, but overall it is a great book.
After I finish up the skunk fur tobacco bag I am working on I plan on a few pairs of mocs to replace my worn out ones. I'll try to post a quasi tutorial on how I do them.