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General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: bob in the woods on March 22, 2021, 07:41:40 PM

Title: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: bob in the woods on March 22, 2021, 07:41:40 PM
.54 cal. Hawken rifle, flintlock, in the hands of a relatively new to flintlock shooting hunter.
My advice to date is 100% focused on pouring water on his burning enthusiasm, with a wait until you are more familiar /comfortable with the rifle and it's operation directive. 
I have read about the experiences of the L& C expedition re grizzlies and .54 cal rifles.
Is there anyone here who can contribute a perspective based on experience ? 
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: 577SXS on March 22, 2021, 08:27:14 PM
Bears are very easy to kill if you shoot them through the lungs or in the ear. NEVER EVER shoot a bear in the shoulders!!
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: bob in the woods on March 22, 2021, 10:32:27 PM
Dan, I have taken many many black bears with a flintlock. Some with the .54 , but most of them with the 10 bore.  Bears are totally unpredictable, and my own findings have lead me in the " bigger is better " direction.  I can, through practice, reload quickly and without thinking too much about it.
I've never shot or even encountered a grizzly bear, but I know I'd want at minimum a .60+ rifle or preferably, my trusty 10 bore.  I'm going to do my best to dissuade this fellow.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Don Steele on March 23, 2021, 01:47:44 AM
I’m going to offer some perspective based upon my experiences hunting dangerous game in Africa.
There’s a famous piece of wisdom regarding the choice of firearms when hunting. Goes something like:
“You shouldn’t rely on a rifle that is adequate when everything goes right, you should choose one that will be adequate when everything goes wrong.”
If a tourist Hunter wants to try to take dangerous game with a marginal firearm he needs to be prepared to come home empty handed if he never gets that “ perfect set-up” for a well aimed shot.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: smylee grouch on March 23, 2021, 02:57:02 AM
Back to the original question Bob, Its been several years ago but there was a story printed in one of the hunting/shooting magazines about a resident Alaskan hunter who took a Grizzly ( inland or coastal I don't recall ) with his 54 Hawken style gun. IIRC he shot it and it ran off and he did follow it up for a second shot. I'm sure there are other examples but for me I would want a bigger ball with some percentage of wheel weight or other hardener. I'm building a 66 now but with my age getting close to the Interstates speed limit I will probably have to stik with Black Bears.  ;D  :)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on March 23, 2021, 03:06:31 AM
Bob- Lewis and Clark's bunch would have been using issue ctgs. in the .54's - in my honest opinion,
not enough ball and certainly not enough powder in their 60 or 70gr. ctgs.
A grizzly can take a LOT of stopping shots, without stopping. They are a LOT tougher than black bears.
I would not even consider shooting one with a single shot rifle. Now, a SxS .69, I might do it - properly
loaded, of course. No 3 dram loads need apply.  A 12 or 10 bore SxS would be even better.  You want as
 much smash and penetration as possible. An alloyed ball would also be requisite to obtain as deep penetration
as possible.

Ticked off Brown Bear

(https://i.ibb.co/84K3TJF/He-looks-angry.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yBfTGDL)

Alberta Grizzly

(https://i.ibb.co/0t7wJjH/Alberta-Griz.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

(https://i.ibb.co/brDXC0K/Alberta-Griz-2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on March 23, 2021, 03:13:58 AM
What may be interesting, is that African Guides who have hunted the big bears in Alaska and many have on
traded hunts, categorically state that the inland grizzly & coastal grizzly (brown bear) are the MOST dangerous
game in the world.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: shifty on March 23, 2021, 02:22:38 PM
Back to the original question Bob, Its been several years ago but there was a story printed in one of the hunting/shooting magazines about a resident Alaskan hunter who took a Grizzly ( inland or coastal I don't recall ) with his 54 Hawken style gun. IIRC he shot it and it ran off and he did follow it up for a second shot. I'm sure there are other examples but for me I would want a bigger ball with some percentage of wheel weight or other hardener. I'm building a 66 now but with my age getting close to the Interstates speed limit I will probably have to stik with Black Bears.  ;D  :)

   If that is the same story that I read  the hunter had about 4 quick loads hanging from his neck and had practiced quick loading for several weeks before the hunt . I talked to a well know Long Bow hunter years ago who killed one with his bow that he  and his guide had just came upon as they rounded a bend in a stream , the experience rattled him . The said guide would not go after the wounded  bear until 4 hrs had passed ,and it was found dead a short distance away to both persons relief.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Robby on March 23, 2021, 02:27:32 PM
And then, there is this.
https://www.alloutdoor.com/2019/10/30/watch-fred-bear-hunt-kodiak-bear-recurve-bow/
If you watch the tape the actual shot is at about 21 minutes in.
Robby
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: alacran on March 23, 2021, 02:43:31 PM
4 bore and depends.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: elkhart on March 23, 2021, 05:19:56 PM
4 bore and depends.

Ha! That's funny right there! I'd go for the magnum depends as well as the magnum caliber.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: smylee grouch on March 23, 2021, 06:34:21 PM
There is that idea fostered by the modern gun press that you need x amount of energy with the right bullet to kill dangerous game, some what true but also s with all game shooting, shot placement is the first key element. What a lot of people who don't have the background do is discount the round ball as a good hunting projectile if a proper size is used. A 54 IMHO is not up to the job for Grizzly. This is one of those cash esp where bigger is better. A 62 would be a bare minimum Gor me and something with a 400 gr. Bullet or more would be better. Faint of heart need not apply.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: MuskratMike on March 23, 2021, 06:47:08 PM
In the words of Elmer Keith: "The weight of the bullet should approximate the weight of the game being sought, and travel just short of the speed of light". This might not be the exact quote but is very, very close. Use enough gun remember sometimes you eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats you!
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: kudu on March 23, 2021, 06:50:31 PM
I got alot of old VHS tapes on archery hunting. one company specialized in coastal Browns from tree stands.
They hunted in Tri pod stands (old one,s) just above the willows and brush along the small rivers. And they killed some Giant,s with old compound Bows from the late 70's early 80's.

I never saw one gun (It was CLOSE by im sure) in any of the scene's and a few Bears died right on Camera.

Silent death from above I guess A Bow don't make too much noise- though I had a Jennings Compound  that sounded like you slammed a Chevett car Door every time you shot it. Oh the old days...
Seems those stands were not too high and could easily be Knocked over by a Bear in my opinion.

 I heard the guide on camera tell one guy "Don't move" he's Right beside you "Dont Move" Dont Move !!!

Talk about Brass B#??s. Those Guys were crazy.

Oh By the way if anyone wants to give it a try I got lots of Linotype for some real hard Balls/Bullets I work in the Printing Industry so did my Dad. Got Lot's of it.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on March 23, 2021, 08:27:14 PM
This is the lodge at Grizzly Skin's Alaska, with guide and writer, Phil Shoomaker, a 6 foot tall man, on the ladder.
A few years back, he had to shoot a bear in camp with a smallish calibre handgun, a .356 calibre. It worked.

(https://i.ibb.co/ZGMFPJ3/DSCN0385w-zpskvikxkhg.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: smylee grouch on March 23, 2021, 09:05:25 PM
Wow and double wow. Just wouldn't be a good Bear hunt if it wasn't exciting. ;D :) And that would have been.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: fishdfly on March 23, 2021, 10:00:29 PM
"Is there anyone here who can contribute a perspective based on experience ?"

To get the above, the best way to get the information would be to contact those who are listed in the "Longhunter Muzzleloading Big Game Record Book" from the NMLRA.  In the Second Book, Lloyd T. Smith Jr. in 1990, Dennis Steffy in 1992 and Jim Shockey in 1994.  Has to be more since, but it would be a good place to start to get honest information and first hand experience.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: smylee grouch on March 23, 2021, 10:44:32 PM
Checking the record book might work if you can sort out those shot with in lines or other non flint lock rifles. Out of 27 grizzly\brown bears listed in the. 7th edition, only one was shot with a flint lock, A 58 cal. Out of 194 black bears listed only about nine or so were taken with flint locks. Interestingly, one was taken with a 73 cal match lock.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: fishdfly on March 23, 2021, 11:17:02 PM
Thanks, something that I had not considered.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Ezra on March 24, 2021, 12:13:09 AM

Ticked off Brown Bear

(https://i.ibb.co/84K3TJF/He-looks-angry.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yBfTGDL)


If he is this close and intent on killing you, and all you have is a .54 caliber flintlock, odds are you are a dead man walking.  No freaking way in answer to your question.  They move remarkably fast and are alot of things, but a nice still target like that beautiful photo, they are not.  I am betting a telephoto lens was used on that photograph.

Ez
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: shifty on March 24, 2021, 01:10:29 PM


   Collector, Can you pm me a link to the  Large Bore forum?
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: varsity07840 on March 25, 2021, 12:24:16 AM
.72 cal, Forsythe rifling, still, no way. I don't know why it loads upside down. Not the gun, the photo.

(https://i.ibb.co/QXfd2Pt/901248-C3-365-D-4-A14-B03-A-1-EEAADDDE5-B7-1-201-a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FnKVS5C)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: RVAH-7 on March 25, 2021, 06:24:22 AM
I prefer flintlocks too. But for your friend, its not only caliber, its the WEATHER. My brother guided brown bear hunts for years and IF you're dealt a bad hand of weather, they sometimes averaged one out of three days the weather cooperated to leave camp and glass for hours. The rain & snow goes by the tents horizontally. If you pay 25,000 for a 10 to 16 day hunt, do the math. This is NOT an endorsement for AAA Alaskan Outfitters but if he checks their web site he could then visit with Brent Jones. Also have him click on their photo gallery of bears and scroll down to the picture of Brent H. size 13 hip boot track.
If your friend can load his flinter, prime it and seal the pan with tallow, beeswax, chapstick or whatever, lash on his best cow's knee and point it down at the drain while he showers, then when done toweling off, if it still fires, I guess he's good to go.
My son will be guiding out at Cold Bay in May. I can't remember if it was Wide Bay or Cold Bay where the wind blew the remote weather station & diesel generator off the pad into the surf.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: smylee grouch on March 25, 2021, 06:38:14 AM
That would be a job just keeping powder in the pan when you try to take a shot in that kind of wind.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Robby on March 25, 2021, 09:05:40 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/vdSd8YW/901248-C3-365-D-4-A14-B03-A-1-EEAADDDE5-B7-1-201-a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M1m1L6H)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on March 25, 2021, 09:30:56 PM
That would be a job just keeping powder in the pan when you try to take a shot in that kind of wind.

There is a notation in "Firearms of the American West" which spoke of just that happening in the prairies of the US West
of the wind "taking the prime" before it could be ignited.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Jeff Murray on March 25, 2021, 10:33:22 PM
I was planning a Yukon hunt that got derailed by Covid.  When I told the outfitter I planned to use a muzzleloader he assume it would be an inline.  When I mentioned my 58 caliber Hawken, he said that would limit my chances of success and suggested a scoped inline or centerfire.  He was more than willing to book the hunt, just wanted to manage expectations.  We also discussed round ball versus bullet.  He liked the 500 grain bullet idea a lot more.  I told him to think of me as a bowhunter with a muzzleloader - hunt up close and personal.  Depending on the twist in his rifle, he may want to consider a bullet if he can get good groups with a stout load.  The other advantage is that he can brag about the bruise on his shoulder after sighting in.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on March 25, 2021, 10:37:32 PM
With a little .58 would seriously be considering using a .562" ball of harder lead than pure for big bear. For moose, pure lead is fine on broadside shots, but old WW gives
better penetration on bones, whether ribs or legs.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: bob in the woods on March 26, 2021, 01:57:26 AM
I would , from experience, rather use my wheel weight ball load than a bullet.  35 years ago, I tried the " bullet " thing and was disappointed more than once .  Since I switched over to round balls, I haven't lost one animal I've shot.  Those balls go right on through where they are supposed to.
When hunting black bears I usually will load my .62 or 10 bore with w.w. balls.
My 10 bore , with a 140 gr FFg load is an awesome hunting gun.  I can load it blindfolded, through lots and lots of practice, and the lock is superb. I have complete faith in it.
An important point I made was that anyone who hunts big game needs to practice enough that they are familiar and confident in their firelock.  Especially true if the game can bite back !
This is something that often gets neglected today, what with the relative ease of use of modern firearms.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Jeff Murray on March 26, 2021, 09:52:20 PM
I think everyone would agree that bigger is better when hunting something that will hunt you back.  Don't know how likely BITW's friend is to buy another rifle to realize his dream, or how determined he is to go with his 54.  The early comment about practice is critical.  Shot placement under field conditions requires practice.  Reloading efficiently requires practice.  Reloading in the field after your first shot on game is way different than doing so at a range, particularly when dealing with the hesitation that  often comes from the desire to see the result of your first shot.  A little adrenaline can screw up that effort even more.  Then there is always the possibility that a PO'd grizzly will be in your lap before you can reload.  Maybe a suggestion he would be more receptive to would be a tune up hunt on buffalo or moose - something big (but less likely to eat him)  to cut his teeth on.  Might end up being a winner for him and his new 54.   
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Ezra on March 26, 2021, 10:41:23 PM
Consider the following, and credit to our own Don Steele,

When hunting dangerous game (ie Grizzly/Alaskan Brown, African Big 5 et al) “You shouldn’t rely on a rifle that is adequate when everything goes right, you should choose one that will be adequate when everything goes wrong.”

IMO, regarding Grizzly or Alaskan Brownies, a .54 caliber flintlock isn’t even adequate for when everything goes right.  Let alone if everything goes wrong.  Remember, none of us want anything less than as humane a kill as possible.  we do not talk about cartridge guns on ALR

GS
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daniel Coats on March 26, 2021, 11:18:04 PM
Has anyone here besides me killed a B&C Alaskan Brown bear? Whatever gun you choose be sure and save the last round for yourself. You'll scream less while he's eating you.

(https://i.ibb.co/1GjZdDy/PXL-20210326-200541702.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KxS6LM4)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Frank on March 27, 2021, 02:01:59 AM
I never hunt anything that can eat me.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: hanshi on March 28, 2021, 12:02:37 AM
That is a sho-nuff awesome photo!
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Sharpsman on March 28, 2021, 12:36:44 AM
Any bear can be kilt!

The object when hunting grizz ain't killing it.....but STOPPING IT is the objective!!
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on March 28, 2021, 02:56:45 AM
Any bear can be kilt!

The object when hunting grizz ain't killing it.....but STOPPING IT is the objective!!


I would suggest this is very true as the first & primary objective and in my honest opinion, the .54 is somewhat lacking.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: alacran on March 28, 2021, 04:00:33 PM
Daniel, when I was stationed at Fort Rich, some 48 years ago I carried a large caliber wheel gun. Was never sure what it was for.
We used to go low bush blue berry picking above the tree line always on the lookout for bears. First time we saw a female with two cubs about 600 yards away, we packed up what we had and left the area.
As far as what is adequate goes...
(https://i.ibb.co/mDSN1Wh/25465.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M29BW0P)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daniel Coats on March 28, 2021, 04:34:36 PM
My first Brown Bear hunt in Alaska I carried a wheel gun for protection but knew better the second trip and left it at home. On the first trip my guide and I were making our way up a salmon stream with the slight breeze in our face. We had checked wind direction before starting up the stream with a Bic lighter. We encountered a sow with a cub the size of the polar bear in the picture and hid and waited. The wind shifted and we felt it on the backs of our necks. You could see when the sow picked up our scent because she stiffened immediately and rose to full height staring in our direction. Then she calmly moved her cub up the side of the hill on the far side of the stream to safety. What she did next is forever burned into my memory. Without further notice she charged roaring horribly back down the mountain and attacked a small tree between us and ripped it to pieces. Then she rose up and looked in our direction once more before going back to her cub and leaving the area. Her message was crystal clear.

I greatly admire the courage of the Inuit in the photo but all three arrows are likely postmortem.

Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daniel Coats on March 28, 2021, 05:55:58 PM
According to my daily diary kept on that first trip in 1991 our encounter with the sow and cub I estimated at 50 yards.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on March 28, 2021, 06:12:33 PM
Fishing in BC is fun.

(https://i.ibb.co/BncgTyQ/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bbQrNsC)

(https://i.ibb.co/rHLs2R4/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3c8zm9B)

(https://i.ibb.co/Mc3nhDf/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jy1h5vz)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: hanshi on March 29, 2021, 10:38:21 PM
Just make sure your rifle is in good order so that this never happens.
(https://i.ibb.co/YQLQXhJ/117872859-10218019934235823-7045023488429478773-n.jpg)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daniel Coats on March 29, 2021, 11:13:49 PM
Hopefully this isn't me!  8)

(https://i.ibb.co/rMj28f3/image.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: hanshi on March 29, 2021, 11:24:48 PM
....or this!
(https://i.ibb.co/QcZvZxX/animals-hunter-hunted-hunting-poacher-poaching-smb050225-low.jpg)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on March 30, 2021, 01:12:50 AM
....or this!
(https://i.ibb.co/QcZvZxX/animals-hunter-hunted-hunting-poacher-poaching-smb050225-low.jpg)


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - that was good.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: alacran on March 30, 2021, 04:28:26 PM
After finding the photo of the Inuit hunter, I was interested in the way they actually hunted before the rifle.
They mostly hunted them when they were in their dens.  They also hunted them in the open Ice and typically used dogs to keep the bears distracted while they stuck it with a spear . Really didn't find any mention of them using a bow.
 The preferred method was to find a den with a bear in it , cut a hole in the top of the den big enough for the bear to stick its head out of it. The hunter then waited for the bear to stick out its head and the hunter would kill it with a spear. Occasionally the den's roof was a bit thin and the hunter would present himself as a meal for the bear.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on March 30, 2021, 08:19:00 PM
Book 3 or 4 of the Bowyer's bibles mentions the Inui bows, made from drift-wood and caribou antlers, with the antler being lashed onto the wooden core with sinew, IIRC. It's been 30years
since I read the book, so might be wrong, but seems that is what I read. Thus, they would likely have used bows. Seems to me, the wood to make a spear haft, would made a couple or more
short draw composite bows.
I suspect some used spears, though.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: hanshi on March 30, 2021, 11:59:43 PM
A rather famous hunter, Dan Quillian, had an archery shop near my buisness down in Georgia.  He'd been written up in hunting magazines off and on for a very long time.  I knew him and his daughter and was thrilled every time I visited the shop.  He even had a zen-archery practioner from Japan demonstrate for us.  But the most amazing thing was the various animals he'd bagged during his hunting days.  His shop had mounted polar & brown bear he's killed with a bow; I'd read the polar bear story years before in one of the hunting publications.  To see them in the (mounted) flesh was an eye opener.  It takes nerve to face off with these hairy "godzillas".
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on March 31, 2021, 12:40:41 AM
IIRC - in the Anchorage museum, there are two bears mounted standing on their hind legs, a Polar Bear and a Brown Bear, both of which are 15 feet from floor to top of their leveled heads.
They are standing on pedestals about 8" to 12" high, so both bears are a good 14' tall.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Craig Wilcox on April 02, 2021, 08:45:33 AM
I think I will stick to hunting jackalopes.  They make very nice trophies, and are herbivores.

Were I to go after one of those big bears, I might try my .62 Jaeger, but would rather wait until my double 10 bore was finished being restocked.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Blacktail on April 02, 2021, 05:29:29 PM
I've killed 20+ brown bears, all with modern rifles.  I've taken all of them apart, plus ones not shot by me. All of which is to say I've seen a number of them killed and how they're constructed. I've also investigated multiple brown bear maulings and one predatory attack where the victim was consumed. 

While it could be possible to kill a brown bear with a .54 prb, I wouldn't recommend trying it at all. It was Bob Hagel who said in essence "Don't use a gun that will kill things under perfect conditions......" and such is sound advice in this sort of idea scenario. Brown/grizzly bears are not especially stout through the ribs, and if you could shoot a calm, unexcited animal perfectly broadside and can get penetration on both lungs, he'll certainly die.

The problem with this idea is it takes alot of far ranging possibilities and mixes them up into an exercise brimming with much more optimism than likelihood of success. While light in the ribs, any angle other than broadside must deal with some heavy, dense muscles. That's asking alot from a .54 PRB. These animals, once motivated, have a rather incredible ability to sustain multiple mortal wounds and keep fighting long enough to make a person look as though they've jumped into a wood chipper. Just like humans, every individual bear has a unique disposition and varying levels of aggressiveness. They do not enjoy being startled and when that stimulus happens in PRB range they respond with either immediate attack or flight. Basically what I'm saying to the OP's friend is that he's wanting to take on an incredibly dangerous animal with a completely substandard weapon option and put himself and anyone with him in danger. The only way this idea should be attempted is with a guide carrying a proper backup rifle. If that's the case, our hunter should accept from the get go that he's likely to pay alot of money to shoot a bear that will likely end up with a number of extra big caliber modern gun holes in it.   
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: bob in the woods on April 02, 2021, 05:56:24 PM
I might , if necessary only, use my 4 bore swivel gun. Mounted on the bow of a canoe, the recoil would have the advantage of propelling you backwards with the shot, which would be a good thing  ;D
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on April 02, 2021, 09:23:25 PM
"Blacktail" - well put.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Dphariss on April 21, 2021, 10:52:15 PM
I would shoot a Gbear with my 16 bore FL rifle. But I would use a hardened ball. And I owuld want a reliable backup. The problem with the Gbear is the first shot thing. If the first shot is a killer they likleyhood of a problem is lessened. But....In 10 seconds or 20 a bear can cover a lot of ground and do damage. I have been told by people with experience that they are fast beyond belief.  So I would not HUNT Gbear/Brown Bear with a bore smaller than 16 bore (one ounce ball). Though I routinely hunt is "occupied Gbear habitat" with smaller guns. I do know that a well placed 12 gauge slug is not sure to stop even a MT black bear. Based on a friend's experience. Nobody go bit since there was a backup with a 45-70 but it appeared the bear was trying. When you hunt dangerous game there is a level of risk. Define dangerous? A Mule deer Buck can gore you after being wounded. Coyotes have killed humans in modern times. Wolves, Mtn Lions.... Almost carnivore wil eat you if the play comes right.


Dan
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Stoner creek on April 21, 2021, 11:02:16 PM
Hunting an animal like that with a muzzle loader makes as much sense as the carnival guy who used to catch .22 rounds with his teeth. Outcome could be bad.  Leave that beast alone, didn’t you learn anything from watching The Revanant??? I can’t believe that this ignorant thread has lasted this long.
 Stupid and unnecessary.........
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Bsharp on April 21, 2021, 11:08:45 PM
Even with my 7 Bore, I would feel under gunned.

Picture recovered from an Elm tree at point blank range. 1000 grain ball at 1100 fps.

You can see where the ball nearly turned inside out. The small center ring is the back of the ball.

(https://up.picr.de/41028463xc.jpg)

I will have to find the ball for measurements and weight.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: bptactical on April 21, 2021, 11:14:18 PM
If I had a choice of weapons to face a Grizzly with I would choose belt fed.


Just sayin.....
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: bob in the woods on April 21, 2021, 11:33:59 PM
Hunting an animal like that with a muzzle loader makes as much sense as the carnival guy who used to catch .22 rounds with his teeth. Outcome could be bad.  Leave that beast alone, didn’t you learn anything from watching The Revanant??? I can’t believe that this ignorant thread has lasted this long.
 Stupid and unnecessary.........
If you read my original post, you will see that I was and continue to be on the side of not attempting this. Persuading an enthusiastic acquaintance was the impetus for the thread, and I asked for comments based on experience.  Didn't get much of that, but there was a plentitude of opinions.
That may or may not be helpful in curbing the fellow's enthusiasm .  " Stupid and unnecessary" ?   Not if I can stop him from going ahead with his plan
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: rich pierce on April 21, 2021, 11:54:28 PM
Bob, once a topic gets into page 3, all original context is lost! ;D
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: OldMtnMan on April 22, 2021, 12:00:17 AM
For Griz i'd use what Alaska guides use and it isn't a muzzleloader. It takes some power to stop a charging Griz.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: bob in the woods on April 22, 2021, 01:25:53 AM
Bob, once a topic gets into page 3, all original context is lost! ;D

Yes....time to end this  ;D
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on April 22, 2021, 01:46:39 AM
"Can ya skin griz, Pilgrim?"
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Stoner creek on April 22, 2021, 02:24:43 AM
Hunting an animal like that with a muzzle loader makes as much sense as the carnival guy who used to catch .22 rounds with his teeth. Outcome could be bad.  Leave that beast alone, didn’t you learn anything from watching The Revanant??? I can’t believe that this ignorant thread has lasted this long.
 Stupid and unnecessary.........
If you read my original post, you will see that I was and continue to be on the side of not attempting this. Persuading an enthusiastic acquaintance was the impetus for the thread, and I asked for comments based on experience.  Didn't get much of that, but there was a plentitude of opinions.
That may or may not be helpful in curbing the fellow's enthusiasm .  " Stupid and unnecessary" ?   Not if I can stop him from going ahead with his plan

I would agree that we are on the same page.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Dphariss on April 22, 2021, 06:05:38 PM
Even with my 7 Bore, I would feel under gunned.

Picture recovered from an Elm tree at point blank range. 1000 grain ball at 1100 fps.

You can see where the ball nearly turned inside out. The small center ring is the back of the ball.

(https://up.picr.de/41028463xc.jpg)

I will have to find the ball for measurements and weight.
This is why to this day they do not shoot really large game with soft lead balls. If you read John Taylor's "Pondoro" in the Elephant section you will find at the end of a chapter his relating killing African Elephant and Rhino with a percussion 10 bore with 167 gr of powder and hardened round balls. All one shot kills it seems but Taylor knew what he was about and used lung shots.
(https://i.ibb.co/Kwgg33s/3-BD10-F88-A553-4191-BD2-C-9-CBFB9-C155-F7-1-105-c.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pyTT99K)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: OldMtnMan on April 22, 2021, 06:43:52 PM
I'll be hunting for black bear this year with a .50 PRB but that's a far cry from a grizzly.

I'd prefer a .54 for a blacky but I don't have one.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daniel Coats on April 22, 2021, 06:57:32 PM
Pete, good luck on your black bear hunt. Are you going to be doing a combo hunt of some type or just black bear?
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: OldMtnMan on April 22, 2021, 07:23:12 PM
Pete, good luck on your black bear hunt. Are you going to be doing a combo hunt of some type or just black bear?

Thanks. Our deer herds are hurting, so i'm going to stick with bear hunting from now on. One of the perks is the bear season is 30 days and the deer was only 9 days. More days more fun. :)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Bsharp on April 22, 2021, 08:15:33 PM
Even with my 7 Bore, I would feel under gunned.

Picture recovered from an Elm tree at point blank range. 1000 grain ball at 1100 fps.

You can see where the ball nearly turned inside out. The small center ring is the back of the ball.

(https://up.picr.de/41028463xc.jpg)

I will have to find the ball for measurements and weight.
This is why to this day they do not shoot really large game with soft lead balls. If you read John Taylor's "Pondoro" in the Elephant section you will find at the end of a chapter his relating killing African Elephant and Rhino with a percussion 10 bore with 167 gr of powder and hardened round balls. All one shot kills it seems but Taylor knew what he was about and used lung shots.
(https://i.ibb.co/Kwgg33s/3-BD10-F88-A553-4191-BD2-C-9-CBFB9-C155-F7-1-105-c.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pyTT99K)

I think there was 7-9"s of penetration on an elm tree.

It will shoot length ways thru a deer.

I have some hardened balls to test in a oak tree.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on April 22, 2021, 08:25:41 PM
(https://up.picr.de/41028463xc.jpg)
I think there was 7-9"s of penetration on an elm tree.
I have some hardened balls to test in a oak tree.

The ability to use hardened balls in a muzzleloading gun, as opposed to having to use dead soft conicals in a muzzleloading
rifle, was the reason conicals were not the preferred projectile for large and dangerous game, until large bored and strong
enough breech loaders were invented that could use hardened conicals. The soft lead conicals lacked penetration on the largest
game, just as soft round balls did. Balls could be hardened, but not so the conicals and still provide the requisite accuracy.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daniel Coats on April 22, 2021, 08:26:29 PM
Pete, good luck on your black bear hunt. Are you going to be doing a combo hunt of some type or just black bear?

Thanks. Our deer herds are hurting, so i'm going to stick with bear hunting from now on. One of the perks is the bear season is 30 days and the deer was only 9 days. More days more fun. :)

Sounds great and you'll have enough time to find out where they're feeding. My mistake last time was not going low enough in elevation. I did have a large bear come into my camp the first night and leave me a present in front of my tent flap. Did see two other bear that week but no chance for a shot. This was Douglas Pass country if you know where that is on the western slope.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: OldMtnMan on April 22, 2021, 08:57:34 PM
Pete, good luck on your black bear hunt. Are you going to be doing a combo hunt of some type or just black bear?

Thanks. Our deer herds are hurting, so i'm going to stick with bear hunting from now on. One of the perks is the bear season is 30 days and the deer was only 9 days. More days more fun. :)

Sounds great and you'll have enough time to find out where they're feeding. My mistake last time was not going low enough in elevation. I did have a large bear come into my camp the first night and leave me a present in front of my tent flap. Did see two other bear that week but no chance for a shot. This was Douglas Pass country if you know where that is on the western slope.

My units are tough bear hunting. Not a lot of natural food. No matter i'll still have fun trying. My favorite terrain is dark timber and bears like it too. So, maybe we'll meet.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: flinchrocket on April 22, 2021, 10:47:36 PM
Uncle Everett hunted griz with a switch. :D
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: hanshi on April 22, 2021, 11:07:31 PM
Grizzlies are much too easily irritated and prone to always take offense.  This gives me a good reason not to even dream about going out looking for them.  I won't even shoot a black bear simply because I like bears so much and it would make me feel like a jerk to kill one.  But for those who enjoy the hunt I say go for it and good luck. 
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: RVAH-7 on April 24, 2022, 04:46:07 AM
...just to stir the pot",    If you're NRA and receive the American Hunter magazine, check out page 67 of the new May 2022 issue.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: smylee grouch on April 24, 2022, 04:55:42 AM
Yep, read that article. Makes me think my 66 should do the job if put in the right spot. ;)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Nessmuck on April 24, 2022, 05:48:10 AM
I’d need a .405 Gov.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on April 25, 2022, 08:40:15 PM
Yep, read that article. Makes me think my 66 should do the job if put in the right spot. ;)

I have read that amongst dangerous game critics, grizzlies are included in the list of African and Indian dangerous game as exactly that, dangerous game - by the PH's themselves.
Yes, I-too would suggest the .66 (16 bore) is about minimum, just as Forsyth noted in his book of 1862. He was talking about SxS's as well, having 2 shots, not just a single shot.
I would also want to have someone with me, with a modern thumper as a back up.
IIRC, Lewis and Clark wrote that their .54's only made the big bears angry.  They would likely have been using issue ctg.s in them, with a mere 70 or 80gr. of powder. However, the
were also shooting them multiple times.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Mule Brain on April 25, 2022, 11:21:44 PM
I would only hunt one of these with nothing less than a .62 rifle, backed up with powerful handgun.

Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: varsity07840 on April 25, 2022, 11:46:05 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/vdSd8YW/901248-C3-365-D-4-A14-B03-A-1-EEAADDDE5-B7-1-201-a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M1m1L6H)

That's my old .72 I sold it earlier this year.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Bob Roller on April 26, 2022, 03:25:04 AM
I read John Taylor's Book "Pondoro" years ago,borrowed from Tom Dawson and I was  underwhelmd by the first two word which were
"I poached" and then it goes on from there. >:(
Bob Roller
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: tecum-tha on April 28, 2022, 02:06:36 AM
Not Grizzlys, but hunting elk with longbows and recurved we now buy the additional bear tags again. They lowered the non-resident tags considerably becasue they are overrun by black bears. I generally buy the rifle tag and can hunt with modern, muzzleloader or bow. Generally it is either spot and stalk for bear alone, or more successfull is killing an elk or put a treestand on another hunter's elk carcass and wait with your bow. Our elk camp killed more black bear the last few years than elk. Odd times.
Jaeger or Hawken depending on the hunt (stationary or stalking).
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Stoner creek on April 28, 2022, 02:46:14 AM
Hunting grizzly bears with a muzzle loading gun is just plain stupid. I’m not a peta kinda guy but playing Russian roulette with a creature that can kill you with one swipe and hasn’t bothered you just don’t make sense. My folks told me to leave the hornets nest just where it was and don’t mess with it.
 Adrenaline junkies I recon.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Chocktaw Brave on April 28, 2022, 03:09:29 AM
I’ve been on many hunts for bears in AK, saw a black bear shot with a .50 cal percussion, nice clean kill. I’ve shot one grizzly, but with a modern 416 Taylor. But lots of black bears by Archery. Every shot and every situation is different. I’ve seen black bears drop within 5 feet from an arrow, and then I had one that I put a 12 gauge slug in his chest at about a foot away, it ran 30 yards before it died. Found a .44 mag slug in a black bears shoulder while skinning, it never even penetrated, but my friend shot one point blank in the Forehead with a 9mm pistol, it rolled over and died quickly. (Would I ever attempt that? NO WAY!)
If I ever went after a grizzly with a muzzleloader, it would be the biggest one I could shoot accurately. I would also have a back up!
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: smylee grouch on April 28, 2022, 04:42:50 AM
Wow, before I lost my leg I was entertaining going to the bank and making a loan to go on a Grizzly hunt with my 66 Flinter. Lucky I lost my leg!  ;)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: DavidC on April 28, 2022, 07:22:58 PM
Hey smylee,

That bear could have balanced you out and you could be twice the pirate with two pegs!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SJvesjGissE

I think that 10 bore rifle is about what suits a grizzly bear. I think your powder charge had best be at least 3 digits.

Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: smylee grouch on April 28, 2022, 07:53:27 PM
When I get around to working up loads for my 16 bore I anticipate some thing in the 4 dram range of 1&1/2 Swiss for the gun as it has an 85 inch twist IIRC. This will be for Black Bear and deer, my Grizzly plans kinda went south along with my leg.  ;)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on April 28, 2022, 08:42:27 PM
Dphar's 16 had an 85" twist rate seems to me and uses 140gr. Swiss = 5.1drams.
That is about equal to my 6 dram load GOEX in my 14 bore, power-wise, not fpe wise.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: LynnC on April 29, 2022, 05:25:44 AM
Thanks for sparking a fond memory alacran.

 “The preferred method was to find a den with a bear in it , cut a hole in the top of the den big enough for the bear to stick its head out of it. The hunter then waited for the bear to stick out its head and the hunter would kill it with a spear. Occasionally the den's roof was a bit thin and the hunter would present himself as a meal for the bear.”

In the mid 1920’s my grandfather was a forward surveyor for Canadian Pacific RR. A crew of several men with double bit axes spent their days slashing thru the bush so that the surveyors could site thru. It came my grands turn to feed the crew. He and his sight man found the den. Gramps was the man on top poking the bear with a pole as the other fellow waited for the bear to come out for shooting. I have no recollection of the gun nor caliber being mentioned. The crew ate well that evening.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Dphariss on May 02, 2022, 05:53:13 PM
When I get around to working up loads for my 16 bore I anticipate some thing in the 4 dram range of 1&1/2 Swiss for the gun as it has an 85 inch twist IIRC. This will be for Black Bear and deer, my Grizzly plans kinda went south along with my leg.  ;)


My 16 bore (well actually the barrel is 15 bore I suppose) shoots very well and gives good velocity, 1600 fps, with 140 gr of FF Swiss. I found in testing that there was little gain in velocity going higher. The fps gain for grain of powder used fell off. It has a Nock Breech and with the breech the barrel is  29 inches and change.
This velocity is near identical to the velocity Forsythe was getting with what I believe was a shorter 14 bore (69 caliber) percussion rifle with a (IIRC) a 96” twist using 5 grams of powder, 137.5 gr. He was using “Halls #2” which I think would have been about like our 3f. Swiss #2 is our 3f.
I calculated his tested trajectories and he was getting very close to 1600 fps.
With a hardened RB he stated it would shoot through an Indian Elephants head from side to side.
I read of people shooting modern “Forsythe” rifles in 62 caliber with 200 grains of powder and wonder why?  Its a waste of powder.
If we read John Taylor’s  “Other Elephant Stories” chapter in “Pondoro”  we learn that when his ammo shipment was misdirected he fwll back to using a borrowed 10 bore smooth percussion gun, apparently meant for the RB. It was regulated for 6 drams (167 gr) of powder. He used it to kill “13 good bulls” and I think 6-8 Rhino from ambush near a waterhole. He stopped using it when he ran out of hardened round balls. All were heart/lung shots often in the dark or low light. He was an ivory hunter and is he did not hunt he did not eat very well.
This said most ran 100-150 yards before dropping. He stated that he would not have wanted to face a charge with it.
I also remember the account of a guy on the Knik River RR bridge west of Palmer AK. A Brown Bear come up at the headwall of the bridge and the fool (?) shot him in the heart or lungs with a medium caliber magnum revolver. Fortunately the  bear ran away down the tracks about 150 yards before dying. I was living in Anchorage at the time. When I was fishing on the Kenai River at Soldotna some years back when a guy from Anchorage shot a sow Grizzly with his medium caliber “carry” handgun when the bear got too close. Head shot I am sure. The locals seemed to think it was a bad shoot. But a Gbear at close range is not something I would want .
I also have a story told to me by a friend of one of the participants that resulted in the shooter with a modern magnum getting a lot of stitches after shooting a Brown Bear twice with a pretty powerful mid caliber suppository gun both good hits I was told. Then having to do a followup which ended badly. The guy that told my co-worker the story shot the bear something over 6 times with a rifle while the bear was mauling the other hunter. They never could determine if the man’s heel was bitten off by the bear or shot off in the melee. Anyway the bear left and was still making a lot of noise as the injured hunter was being taken back to the river. The heathy one went for the boat, had to swim around a sow and cubs on the way…. But everyone survived except the bear that was recovered the next day….. He said this was the smaller of the two they started stalking on the Mtn side above the river…. The bigger one was gone when they got there.
You just never know.
Where I hunt the Gbears are smaller. So I take my chances and often hunt with a suppository gun depending on my attitude that day.  And remember in many places Gbears/Brown Bears think a gunshot is a dinner bell and they come to it. So in some places if you shoot a deer or  elk you get it out ASAP. Like immediately. Or you may have to shoot you way out. One hunter killed 2 gbears in one year about 10 years back. Once when he killed his Elk and another when hunting with a friend.
We had a hiker or horn hunter killed by a Gbear about 40-50 miles south of here last month. Leaving a wife and young kids…. Like I said you just never know. The bears here are a LOT smaller than the coastal bears in AK.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Waksupi on May 02, 2022, 06:01:20 PM

I read of people shooting modern “Forsythe” rifles in 62 caliber with 200 grains of powder and wonder why?  Its a waste of powder.


I had Jerry Cunningham cut me a Forsythe 1-120 barrel many years ago, in .62. It took 180 gr. 3FFF to get the best accuracy from it.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Bill Raby on May 02, 2022, 06:22:33 PM
I built a 4 bore rifle because I need something to hunt elephants, rhino, and grizzly. I am never actually going to hunt elephant, rhino, or grizzly but I need a rifle for it anyway.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Dphariss on May 02, 2022, 06:35:58 PM
I read John Taylor's Book "Pondoro" years ago,borrowed from Tom Dawson and I was  underwhelmd by the first two word which were
"I poached" and then it goes on from there. >:(
Bob Roller

This was very common in Africa at the time.
And just like judging people in our past one must be careful judging people in the past.
In many cases he shot on license. He also guided hunters in the later years.
John Taylor was many things I do not agree with but his knowledge of firearms is one thing that is unquestioned even by people that knew him to be something of a story teller. One stated that one could not believe everything he said but stated that when he spoke of firearms one had better listen.
I take knowledge where I find it.
I would also point out that one of the reasons he was not popular with many Europeans in Africa was that he treated the Africans as people, as humans not some sub standard thing the be used, insulted or abused as the European might chose to do at any given time.
And lots of people I know or have known were poachers at some level. But it was usually to eat. Its pretty hard to condemn someone who shoots a deer to put meat on the table. I know people, in their youth, shot numbers of Mule Deer just to keep them off the haystacks, dragged them into a coolee to rot.
I doubt that anyone who hunted Elephant in Africa before WW-II and killed 1000 Elephant or more was not at some level a poacher. Be it Taylor or Bell or who ever.  One always must consider the world they lived in at the time.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Dphariss on May 02, 2022, 06:59:35 PM

I read of people shooting modern “Forsythe” rifles in 62 caliber with 200 grains of powder and wonder why?  Its a waste of powder.


I had Jerry Cunningham cut me a Forsythe 1-120 barrel many years ago, in .62. It took 180 gr. 3FFF to get the best accuracy from it.

I think that Forsythe’s ideas on twist were far too slow. I think that Daryl’s 66 twist 69 bears this out. The twist only need be slow enough to prevent stripping the patch. The slower twist does not give better  velocity for the given powder charge. Now this is largely opinion and would require making some barrels with various twists to confirm, but I think its sound. Forsythe mistakenly thought that friction in the bore was the problem. Actually friction in the bore increases load inertia and will give a better burn of the powder and more consistent shot to shot velocities. I think that the 180 gr charge may be doing the same thing. Since the powder charge during initial stages of ball movement becomes part of the projectile, increasing its initial weight and thus the inertia. This is not something that is much worried about by RB shooters. But people shooting bullets at long range know that the velocity variation is a major cause of vertical stringing.
If we look to an old Winchester catalog that lists the various recoils associated with the calibers they offered we find that velocity to velocity the BP loads make about 20% more recoil than other powders. It can be found in “Cartridges of The World”. I think its related to the difference in charge weights.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: smylee grouch on May 02, 2022, 07:27:11 PM
A friend's wife had bought him an African Safari at a benefit banquet but before he could go he had a heart attack while working the Camp Perry Matches. He did heal up to the point that he could go and used his 62 flinter to take a variety of plains game IIRC. I was thinking that he used a semi hard ball with 4 & 1/2 dram load. He has since passed which reinforces my thoughts that if you have that kind of " Dream " go for it while your still able.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on May 02, 2022, 07:31:55 PM
I am totally in agreement with Dan on Forsyth's writings about ROT. I also think they were too slow, however, Forsyth's intent was to be able to use a fairly loose combination
yet still have it follow the rifling.  There may be "something" to that, I don't know, as I do not have such a slow twist barrel as he suggested. He was interested in hunting
accuracy on large dangerous game at close range - mostly. He also spoke of shooting a Sambar stag at 200yards with a 3 dram load in a 14 bore rifle (15bore ball) and the ball
passed through the deer.
As Dan noted, my .69, with .008" undersized ball and .030" patches, shot with the best & identical accuracy with 165gr. through 200gr. of powder.  165gr. gave me the 1,550fps, while
200gr. produced 1,700fps. Is 35gr. more powder worth the 150fps produced?  Due to a mistake in loading, I found out that a double charge of powder, 330gr. 2F GOEX only produced 1,770fps. - Not very efficient.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on May 02, 2022, 07:39:51 PM
A friend's wife had bought him an African Safari at a benefit banquet but before he could go he had a heart attack while working the Camp Perry Matches. He did heal up to the point that he could go and used his 62 flinter to take a variety of plains game IIRC. I was thinking that he used a semi hard ball with 4 & 1/2 dram load. He has since passed which reinforces my thoughts that if you have that kind of " Dream " go for it while your still able.

Total agreement, smylee grouch.
Back in the 70's I had a BURN to go to Africa - elephant, cape buffalo, most of the antelope + kudu and eland.
Raising a family got in the way of that, but I no longer have the same burn.
Over 40 years later, with my hunting buddy gone to his reward, I am content to fish ALL SUMMER, hunt some grouse in the fall & just shoot at the range.
The monthly postal matches have been a blast.
Times change, but if you have a burn, do it if you can.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Bob Roller on May 03, 2022, 03:45:33 PM
I built a 4 bore rifle because I need something to hunt elephants, rhino, and grizzly. I am never actually going to hunt elephant, rhino, or grizzly but I need a rifle for it anyway.

You never know when something will escape from the zoo or a circus.About 65 years ago there was a low end carnival set up near here and a big cat got loose that created some uneasiness in our neighborhood.Nobody got hurt and the "kitty" was recaptured uninjured.
A 4 bore that was ready to go could be a comfort in an odd situation like this one. ;D.Nothing like a big boom elephant gun ready to go.
   Years ago,the late Don Brown told me he had various barrels made with round ball twists that gave velocities close to modern small bore rifles.He was using a 58 caliber as the choice for these experiments.All the loads he mentioned were well over 100 grains of black powder and he did mention Swiss 3fg as the "star" of the show and the twists of rifling sounded more like splines that an actual twist.I think he said velocities of about 2100FPS were attained with the round ball that weighed about 280 grains.Rod England now owns all the Alex Henry items that Don had and maybe there are notes that say more about this.I am relying on a memory from a  long phone conversation with Don about a year before he passed away.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on May 03, 2022, 07:49:01 PM
Both my .40 and .45 longrifle barrels of 42" length produced accuracy loads in their 48" and 60" twists, of 2,240fps when using LHV lubricant & both 3F GOEX and 2F GOEX.

Achieving over 2,000fps with a .58 'took' some doing.

My own 34"(IIRC) .58 Large barrel produced 1,951fps with a 285gr. RB with 2F GO or GOEX back in the late 1970's.

At least that is what my OEHLER M12 called it. The first chronograph with "Sky Screens".
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Hungry Horse on May 04, 2022, 08:59:09 PM
Before you jump on a griz with a .54 you better make sure you have a huntin’ buddy that can sew your scalp back on.

Hungry Horse
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: rich pierce on May 04, 2022, 09:18:30 PM
A little levity. If drawing away from this discussion please PM me and I’ll remove it.
(https://i.ibb.co/MsTtpdy/7-DCDE2-C4-E469-46-F7-9643-C408-FA9369-EC.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zrcBbdW)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on May 05, 2022, 02:17:35 AM
Sounds legitimate to me. ;)

Appears all you really need is a duck.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: smylee grouch on May 05, 2022, 03:49:27 AM
 ;D Good one Rich!  ;D Thats a " lame duck " for sure. :)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Jeff Murray on May 05, 2022, 07:31:56 AM
Fun cartoon.  Reminds me of Larson's cartoons that often featured animals in human situations.  One I recall showed a bunch of bears in a campground throwing people at each other with on person smacked across the bears face.  Caption was "Food Fight".  Laughter is good.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on May 05, 2022, 08:50:50 PM
Here's one I found funny.

(https://i.ibb.co/CBNJSPm/Chuck-Norris.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Robby on May 05, 2022, 10:57:56 PM
I guess the guy's that failed at this endevour aren't talking.
Robby
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: oldtravler61 on May 11, 2022, 12:03:19 AM
  After reading all these comments. I'd like to make two points.
 Number one is when you hunt something that is VERY Dangerous. Plus you choose to use a weapon that is marginally
 adequate for the job. Just so it supports your ego. YOU are putting your guides life in the balance. Something to consider.!!
 Last but not least. Why kill something that you are not going to eat.?
 Just so you can have a trophy to brag to your friends about or your name in a record book ?

 I like hunting as much as anyone else. But the game I hunt I eat and use everything on that animal that's possible. JMHO
  Oldtravler
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Chocktaw Brave on May 11, 2022, 02:03:07 AM
I have eaten all the black bears that I have shot over the years. But not the grizzly bear, but taking out grizzlies in overpopulated areas helps the moose population! And I love to eat moose!
Nothing like a grizzly to get your adrenaline pumping! I’ve walked up on several while doing other hunting, luckily no sows with cubs.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on May 11, 2022, 10:15:46 PM
My wife roasted a grizzly haunch roast for the Smithers Wild Game Banquet in about 1978. It was quite excellent and every bit as good as moose.
One of the guides, Ray Collingwood, I think was one of the first in line and removed the 'Grizzly' sign and put it under the large plate of slices. That
roast was one of the first serving plates emptied.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: MJBush on May 11, 2022, 10:25:59 PM
Daryl, that Chuck Norris pic is very funny. Made me laugh out loud. Thanks.
Michael
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: oldtravler61 on May 12, 2022, 04:11:43 PM
  Mountain lion is also very good..  Know that for a fact..
  Don't see why grizzly would be any different from black bear. They all eat the same things. If yeah kill it. Grill it...!  Oldtravler
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: snapper on May 12, 2022, 04:37:37 PM
In 2009 I shot a grizzly.   Took a hunk of loin that night for supper.   I  dredged it in flour, fried in butter.   Tasted terrible.   You know how just about anything taste great after a long day of hunting and you are in the middle of the wilderness?   Not that night.   Had to get the water boiling for freeze dried again.

Fleener
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on May 12, 2022, 08:46:00 PM
Fleener:  grizzly meat is just like any other large game animal, in that the meat requires proper handling both in the field and in the kitchen.  All large game animal meat benefits from aging.
Many times, I've dined on moose tenderloin on the same day as the kill, and it is good, but nothing when compared to meat that has aged for the right length of time and at the right temperature.
Recently, at a big game feast sponsored by our local wildlife federation, I had the occasion to try both grizzly and elk, roasted in similar fashion, and the grizzly was by far the better meat.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daniel Coats on May 12, 2022, 08:51:25 PM
Both of my Alaska guides on two separate trips said that grizzly was not edible and that it was too full of parasites to be considered safe to eat.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: hanshi on May 12, 2022, 10:24:40 PM
Both of my Alaska guides on two separate trips said that grizzly was not edible and that it was too full of parasites to be considered safe to eat.


Actually it's likely true.  But hogs have parasites and they are eaten and enjoyed.  Proper handling & cooking takes care of any parasites either one may be carrying.  The only thing I know that cooking can't kill are the prions.  That's because prions aren't "organisms" but rather dangerous proteins.  They aren't "alive" in this sense just deadly.  Think mad cow disease, chronic wasting disease, etc.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: snapper on May 13, 2022, 12:59:33 AM
Bears are very likely to have trichinosis. The only thing that kills the trichinosis and makes the meat safe to eat is high temperature cooking.

Fleener
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Chocktaw Brave on May 13, 2022, 02:05:12 AM
The best way I found to cook black bear is to pressure cook it and  can the meat. Comes out really super tender and taste like roast beef :) :
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: DavidC on May 13, 2022, 03:32:26 AM
Both of my Alaska guides on two separate trips said that grizzly was not edible and that it was too full of parasites to be considered safe to eat.


Actually it's likely true.  But hogs have parasites and they are eaten and enjoyed.  Proper handling & cooking takes care of any parasites either one may be carrying.  The only thing I know that cooking can't kill are the prions.  That's because prions aren't "organisms" but rather dangerous proteins.  They aren't "alive" in this sense just deadly.  Think mad cow disease, chronic wasting disease, etc.

On trichinosis in bears: http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=682

Abstract for a study from Canada: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21719845/

In wild pork game compared to farmed: https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/trichinellosis/epi.html

Awareness and better food preparation practices have diminished trichinellosis in general but it is farming practices that have improved the safety of pork for consumption, though few eat it raw or rare.

It's all personal preference but it's not an apples-to-apples comparison with pork and bear and their respective risks. Also if you get trichinellosis at an advanced age it will probably be a contributing factor to the decline of activity that will eventually lead to your death. Is it really worth the risk?
http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/index.cfm?adfg=wildlifenews.view_article&articles_id=682
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on May 13, 2022, 05:25:38 AM
Garbage dump bears as well as hogs fed on garbage will have tricosolis.
Bears shot in the WILD will rarely, VERY rarely have the tric.
This info from a Dr. and big game guide who eats ALL his wild game rare to med. rare at the most. He's 80 now and can out bush walk most anyone on this forum no matter the age. His bloody stride is almost 1 1/2 yards. 6.5" still.
Daryl
Daryl

Bears are very likely to have trichinosis. The only thing that kills the trichinosis and makes the meat safe to eat is high temperature cooking.

Fleener
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: oldtravler61 on May 13, 2022, 03:31:17 PM
  Daryl more than likely the guides want to get out of the area
 as fast as possible. Before any more bears show up..
  Oldtravler
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: DavidC on May 13, 2022, 07:12:36 PM
Garbage dump bears as well as hogs fed on garbage will have tricosolis.
Bears shot in the WILD will rarely, VERY rarely have the tric.
This info from a Dr. and big game guide who eats ALL his wild game rare to med.

Information from a man who made a decision before he looked at any information. He's completely and utterly wrong. The prevalence is GREATER in wild bears because they eat a more carnivorous diet. Polar bears, unfortunately notorious cannibals, are 100% infected.

My first link above has more information from Alaskan and Canadian studies but this has been known for a long time.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Bob Roller on May 14, 2022, 07:08:05 PM
IF I were prone to stroll in the woods where such a fearsome creature belonged I would want the gun I had a few decades ago made by Rigby and it had 2 barrels.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daniel Coats on May 14, 2022, 09:29:23 PM
You can kill a grizzly with a stick just ask Fred Bear. Odds are though unless conditions are perfect either your guide will have to finish it off for you or a wounded bear will get away. Most and Fred Bear would agree aren't found strolling down the beach and run in the same direction they're pointed until they run out of gas and die in plain view.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: oldtravler61 on May 14, 2022, 09:51:59 PM
  To add to this foolishness. I had a Sheriff's deputy stop by yeasterday.  Seems he is taking his family to Montana for a wilderness camping trip.
 He wanted my opinion on which handgun he should carry in case they had bear trouble. I tried to advise him not to but carry a rifle or shotgun. He was adamant that his choice of handgun was good enough.
 So I advised him to file off his front sight. He asked why..?
 I told him it wouldn't hurt that much when the bear  shoved it someplace....   Oldtravler
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Chocktaw Brave on May 15, 2022, 07:27:10 AM
You can kill a grizzly with a stick just ask Fred Bear. Odds are though unless conditions are perfect either your guide will have to finish it off for you or a wounded bear will get away. Most and Fred Bear would agree aren't found strolling down the beach and run in the same direction they're pointed until they run out of gas and die in plain view.
Tracking a wounded bear is no fun. I helped track a black bear that was Poorly stuck. Along the  way there was evidence that the bear had turned and stopped, waiting on us. We tracked for over a half mile, Down on hands and knees finding tiny specs of blood, never did find him, Blood trail Just ran out. And he was heading uphill.
IF I was to hunt Grizzly with a BP muzzleloader, it would be a double barrel, and the larger caliber, the better.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Tacitus on May 15, 2022, 07:49:03 AM

(https://i.ibb.co/HHMKXsb/bear-meme.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qr4Dxfc)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Austin on May 17, 2022, 02:57:09 AM

(https://i.ibb.co/4W0JwVX/94-CBF5-B4-6-D7-E-4-C1-D-827-D-C42536-D764-F3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nrKRqLY)
NRA May issue of the American Hunter says all you need is a 50 and some pyrodex…. Where can I get one of those odd looking guns and some pyrodex?
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Stoner creek on May 17, 2022, 04:17:36 AM

(https://i.ibb.co/4W0JwVX/94-CBF5-B4-6-D7-E-4-C1-D-827-D-C42536-D764-F3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nrKRqLY)
NRA May issue of the American Hunter says all you need is a 50 and some pyrodex…. Where can I get one of those odd looking guns and some pyrodex?

 Continue on with the article, it was a trophy class koala bear 🐻!
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: smylee grouch on May 17, 2022, 05:32:22 AM
I would surly love to hunt the G. Bear with a Muzzleloader and if I still had both legs I would even if I had to borrow the money to go. For all those who think a Muzzle loader is not up to the job please read Dan's post about the great African hunters using proper sized and hardend balls. Risky, maybe but we all take risks every day and some of them are more risky than any hunting. Ask a cop on todays mean streets
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daniel Coats on May 17, 2022, 05:55:36 AM
The risk hunting grizzly bears isn't about the bear getting you it's about the bear getting away! Why wound a grizzly bear with a muzzleloader so that the guide has to kill it for you. Something to think about.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: smylee grouch on May 17, 2022, 06:08:31 AM
Thats a good point Mr. Coats and thats why you should use a proper sized and hardend ball. And I might add that regardless of what you use proper shot placement. Thats where Hunt comes into play. G. Bear hunting should be a serious undertaking for sure and the hunter should be prepared for it.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: WadePatton on May 17, 2022, 01:11:36 PM
A "DIY" 50 cal at that.  Wonder how many bears the writer has indeed taken.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on May 18, 2022, 12:22:51 AM
I suspect hunting koala bears is not very difficult  nor rewarding.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on May 18, 2022, 05:07:36 AM
I would also suggest some form of a club, rather than a rifle  that is, if you felt the need or desire to kill one of the adorable little beasts.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: oldtravler61 on May 19, 2022, 03:05:20 AM
 Daryl you know they are the scourge of eucalyptus leaves.
Thus they should be shot on sight. Far more dangerous than a 1000 lb grizzly ever was...!  Only a four bore for them critters...
   Oldtravler
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on May 21, 2022, 07:07:27 PM
Dangerous indeed. Apparently, well known as Jump-Bears.
Don't walk under the gum trees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwf9yQhYVrA&ab_channel=DWNews
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Jakob on May 21, 2022, 07:54:14 PM
Ah, but what about the Australian Drop Bear. Far more dangerous.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: hanshi on May 21, 2022, 09:09:11 PM
I read somewhere about a guy that tangled with a koala bear and ended up smelling like a cough drop for nearly a week.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on May 21, 2022, 10:43:27 PM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Bob Roller on May 22, 2022, 05:00:44 PM
The reason for killing this little critter IS????? Getting back to real bears that view us as a delicacy,I want NO part of any rifle that takes way too long to reload.Double rifles are ideal IMHO and I did own a Rigby that was considered as a big game rifle  and widh I had not sold it.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Rusticbob on May 22, 2022, 10:14:14 PM
How did we get off the subject.
I have seen a lot of stupid stunts done in my day, but shooting a real live grizzly bear with a muzzleloader kind of tops the list. Show some respect for your prey!
(https://i.ibb.co/6X3LtrY/C8-BF6-D0-B-C503-4-F07-A1-EB-D8-F5-B4-D971-EB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jJcswbh)
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on May 23, 2022, 02:01:21 AM
LOL - no judgements made here. ;)
But truth be known, for some people it just might be so.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: smylee grouch on May 23, 2022, 02:28:13 AM
I wonder if all those old time African hunters that used Muzzle Loaders thought it was a stunt.  :-\
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Ezra on May 23, 2022, 11:08:57 PM
I wonder if all those old time African hunters that used Muzzle Loaders thought it was a stunt.  :-\


Well, it’s all relative to today and the tools we now have.  Personally, I’m not killing anything that’s not threatening my survival or that I cannot eat.  But hey, that’s just me.

Ez
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on May 24, 2022, 01:58:11 AM
Exactly!
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: bob in the woods on May 25, 2022, 01:18:13 AM
Aside from the critters that are after my chickens , the things I shoot are all made of meat  ;D
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Duane Harshaw on May 25, 2022, 03:04:59 AM
  I have been within five feet of a wild grizzly, sorry but no muzzleloader for me...
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on May 25, 2022, 04:19:09 AM
Haven't been that close, Duane.  15' was the closest. 6 within 30yards while fishing. They were too, so NP, even though it was a couple
sows with 3, 2year old  cubs. All were fishing and very successful. I let mine run downstream and broke it off to not raise a fuss. They were
on one side of the river and I & a number of other fishers were on the other.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: smylee grouch on May 25, 2022, 04:47:42 AM
Five feet would probably raise the Pucker factor to some upper limits.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daniel Coats on May 25, 2022, 05:14:22 AM
I've had them walk by a few feet away when standing on the bank of a salmon stream in SE AK. During times of plentiful food these bears will tolerate others. The trick is not to make direct eye contact and they do the same.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on May 25, 2022, 08:30:30 AM
That is a good point, Dan. Can be some trick, though. Although that goes with all game. Eye contact means you see them - with all game.  Once you see & acknowledge them & they you, then it's the fight or flight reaction.
If you are the king well, maybe flight - likely fight.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Dphariss on May 25, 2022, 04:43:34 PM
The risk hunting grizzly bears isn't about the bear getting you it's about the bear getting away! Why wound a grizzly bear with a muzzleloader so that the guide has to kill it for you. Something to think about.
If the shot is placed properly the ML is just as deadly as any modern rifle. So long as the ball is properly sized for the game.  Part of the problem, like Turner Kirkland’s Elephant hunt with a 4 bore, is in using soft lead balls on large game. While we read of John Taylor killing a number of African Elephant and Rhino with a 10 bore and hardened balls. Kirkland shot an Elephant twice with soft lead from the 4 bore and the PH had to finish it off due to  insufficient penetration. Poor bullet/cartridge selection is a problem with brass suppository guns as well and bad shot placement certainly is.
The average American hunter going to the Western Mountains in 1835 would likely take a 54. Its not all that great but it works for almost everything so long as shot placement is good. And moist American in the East saw little reason to shoot. A ball size larger than 38-40 to the pound. Larger boires were to expensice to shoot. But like Taylor stated, facing a charge with something a little too small, and a 10 bore was pretty small for a ML in Africa, with only one shot,  was not something he would have wanted to do.
Shot placement.  With a proper caliber I would not worry about a shoulder shot on a bear. According to reports it works and a medium high shoulder shot will anchor just about anything you would find in NA if penetration is adequate. I can’t go on without getting too far into brass suppository territory. But remember that Lewis and Clark were shooting pretty light loads in the short rifles, based on Lewis being shot with one. So the effectiveness on Gbears may have been poor penetration if the penetration in Lewis’ butt was any indication.
I am supposed to be doing something in the shop now….
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: oldtravler61 on May 25, 2022, 09:14:54 PM
  Me thinks we've beat this subject to death more than the bears.   Oldtravler
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Panzerschwein on May 27, 2022, 01:53:31 AM
The old timers got many bears with .54s.

Still, I’d prefer a hot loaded .62 as a minimum, with a .66 being better.
Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: WadePatton on May 27, 2022, 03:38:39 AM
Come on now let's pick the bones like buzzards on some tasty carcass across the trail:

I'd want backup no matter the bore. No backup and I'm out. Got to this age taking risks (and lots of close calls), so I'm about over all that now-as much as I can be,
maybe.

Title: Re: .54 cal vs grizzly bears
Post by: Daryl on May 29, 2022, 01:53:38 AM
LOL- I assume the bottom line summary, is that if properly loaded, the .54 might be just fine, however a larger bore, properly
loaded is better. Of course we are reminded of the Indigenous Woman in BC who killed the grizzly in the 60's with a .22LR. Let's
just say she was quite "lucky".