AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: bob in the woods on April 25, 2021, 07:16:03 PM
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I thought it best to start a new thread in which the discussion is "centred " [ pardon the pun] on accuracy. As I've mentioned before, smoothbores need to be tested with various combinations, much like rifles, in order to find the sweet spot and achieve their accuracy potential.
Many years ago, I made the decision to hunt exclusively with a flintlock firearm. That was a learning process, what with the inclement weather we face here during the hunting seasons.
Today, most of the time I carry a smoothbore, and it took a lot of testing to get to the point where I was happy with the results I was getting.
I just went through my Muzzleloader magazines and found an article in the July August 2015 issue which was an eye opener for me. It is written by Mike Beliveau and titled " Old School Smoothbore Loading - Round Ball "
I won't go through the article, but in the end his Fusil 20 bore , using .610 balls and a 90 gr powder charge had a group size of just under 8 inches at 50 yards. When he bumped up the charge to 110 gr, the group at 50 yards shrank to 3 inches.
5 more groups verified that this load was consistently within 3 to 4 inches .
It may take a lot of work at the range to find out what your gun prefers, but it's worth the effort.
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This should be a good topic and I'm looking forward to some actual results and not some "good enuff " comments. A lot of this has for sure been covered here before but real results such as targets shot would be nice. I say all this because I don't own one at the time but a smooth bore is on my list.
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Hi jerry, wht was your load combo and hold on the target? And how does that load do at 50 yards?
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Here's an old target I shot with my 20 bore, at 28yards, from a bench-rest.
No rear sight.
This load barely will keep 5 shots on a standard 11" x 8" sheet of paper, but I try.
More powder does shoot better, though.
(https://i.ibb.co/Q8f7trN/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JxKWg57)
(https://i.ibb.co/NTdDtb6/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kmsb5vg)
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Hi jerry, wht was your load combo and hold on the target? And how does that load do at 50 yards?
65 gr of 3fg, .012 cotton patching, and .595 round ball. I haven’t tried that load at 50 yards yet. I always use a center hold. Thanks, Jerry
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Hi again Jerry, I'm curious what your shot patches looked like and if you had much fouling with that load.
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Fowling was very light. Tomorrow I’m trying ox-yoke liquid Wonder Lube. Anxious to see how it works.
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This is the accuracy of a Pedersoli 20 gauge Trade gun using a .600 ball and .015 patch lubed with TOW mink oil loaded over 80 gr. of 3f Goex. The target was shot offhand at 75 yards if I remember correctly.
(https://i.ibb.co/31mgcQq/Indian-Trade-musket-jpg-x3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7vtsKL5)
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Here are some targets fired on various dates with a variety of loads all at 50 yards. Mostly these all are good for deer within 50 yards or "possibly" a little farther.
(https://i.ibb.co/3BH7M6d/DSC00462.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Cn0phyc/DSC00453.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/xJNGFN5/DSC00455.jpg)
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Interesting targets indeed, Hanshi. How do you load your bare-ball loads? Wad/wads? - where?
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20 gauge Chief's Gun. .610 ball, ticking patch, water/ballistol lube, 80 grains Goex 2-f.
25 yards off hand.
I can't predict what load a smoothbore is going to shoot well. You just have to try everything until the gun shows you what it likes to shoot.
(https://i.ibb.co/GTnxWYZ/IMG-2848.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jRb6y0C)
At one time I ran a flintlock only, smoothbore event which consisted of gongs with round ball, clays with shot, and a buck shot target. I don't recall any two shooters who loaded their guns exactly alike.
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Daryl, if memory serves me I believe I put (usually) a wad of paper, card wad or felt wad, most anything works, over the powder. Then I place the ball on top of a lubed wad or maybe two or even a 1/2" lubed fiber wad and seat it all down as one unit. I think this helps hold the ball mostly centered since seating tends to push the ball slightly into the wad. A card wad is then placed over the ball. On average the accuracy is a bit less than using a patched ball but the difference in the field is negligible. Powder charge is kinda open to change. But 75 grains of 3F or 90 to 100 grains of 2F keeps the accuracy rather consistent. Another interesting thing is that increasing or decreasing the powder charge a modest amount (both prb and bare ball) doesn't materially affect accuracy; although poi can be moved. So far no 3F charge below 60 grns or 2F above 100 has been tried.
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Tks, Hanshi. I loaded the 12 bore in a similar fashion wit a cupped wad that held the ball in the middle of the bore.
I found this to be quite accurate. I think this is why a snug fitting paper ctg. also seems to work well.
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Here is a target from yesterday. 80 FFG Tow .610 ball Tow.
I am trying to get a good load from patched balls as well but not having good luck. tried .570 .580, .595 with .10 .15. .18 and .20 patches and so far the tow is winning. I will keep trying with different wadding and see what happens. I did try up to 110 with the bare ball tow load but point of impact was the same and recoil was a bit sharp. I may try another 110 grouping at sometime.
Smoothbore is .62 with 44 inch colerain barrel.
Mwal
(https://i.ibb.co/BnpyQ4f/target-4-28-21.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cYB6Zby)
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That's impressive, mwal!
Bob in the woods, I tried Mike Beliveau's method and did get smaller groups from my GRF 20ga. trade gun with a .600" RB, but they were at least 8" to the right of my point of aim. However, 90gr. FFg with large, hand rolled tow wads atop the powder and atop the .618" RB were promising and worth another try. Here's a pic that I've posted before of those results (50 yd., bench rest)*. Btw, those are the best 50 yd. grouping I ever got with that smoothbore.
(https://i.ibb.co/JpNcDjr/39025-181b431f9171d1b49347c3f829da3a04.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
upload pic (https://imgbb.com/)
*Foulers ! & 2 and shot no. 4 are essentially flyers as is shot 9. The tow wad technique, at least in my gun, requires tow wads large enough to need effort to seat and thus the wads need to be consistent. Also, a damp patched bore after every shot may help accuracy as well.
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Here is a target from yesterday. 80 FFG Tow .610 ball Tow.
I am trying to get a good load from patched balls as well but not having good luck. tried .570 .580, .595 with .10 .15. .18 and .20 patches and so far the tow is winning. I will keep trying with different wadding and see what happens. I did try up to 110 with the bare ball tow load but point of impact was the same and recoil was a bit sharp. I may try another 110 grouping at sometime.
Smoothbore is .62 with 44 inch colerain barrel.
Mwal
(https://i.ibb.co/BnpyQ4f/target-4-28-21.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cYB6Zby)
I am quite intrigued with this. IT is a lot better than my 20 bore will do rested, at 50 yards.
Mwl- welcome to the forum. BTW- you didn't say what range this was shot at.
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50 yards on a bench.
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Tks! I was hoping that was the case.
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Looks like we have a lot of potential entries for the next smoothbore match .
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My rifle is a smooth rifle with a rear site. The matches are for fowlers with no rear sight?
Mwal
(https://i.ibb.co/VW5w5Qz/IMG-20200416-100641305.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MDQBQGt)
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My rifle is a smooth rifle with a rear site. The matches are for fowlers with no rear sight?
Mwal
(https://i.ibb.co/VW5w5Qz/IMG-20200416-100641305.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MDQBQGt)
Normally smoothbore matches allow no rear sight above the plane of the barrel. Use a graver to mark both sight and dovetail with a nick and knock the sight out. Return it for deer hunting. When I make a smoothbore for a customer and they want a rear sight I also include a slug that fits the dovetail and is even with the barrel flat.
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That's a great idea, Rich. Another is having a groove at the breech, or a tang screw that has the slot running North/South for an indicator of the middle of the flat.
With the eye-ball above the breech sighting the front bead, blade or post in the middle, can mean the difference between a miss and a hit, that is, if the gun shoots
centre.
With a groove, running soap-stone in the groove, then wiping it off sideways can highlight the groove in the bottom of your peripheral vision & gives an indication of the centre of
the gun's bl. Is it a sight? No, it does not stick up above the plane of the barrel.
Trouble is, I keep forgetting my stick of soap stone.
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Daryl, like this? Not shy with the file.
(https://i.ibb.co/jTz319C/2102-F0-D3-60-F9-4-EF7-9626-A39-CBDBF5-D15.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VtxMP0F)
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Exactly.
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Unfortunately my rear sight is pinned or dimpled in 4 spots so removing would require grinding sight . And recreating dovetail.
Mwal
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Maybe the winner of a monthly smoothbore event, will allow sights?
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I have to see a section of the octagon plane of the barrel in order to hit the mark with my smoothbore.
I have always wondered if a mark on the barrel made with paint in a strategic location to use as a reference point in order to consistently get the same sight picture would be legal in NMLRA competition?
Would that 1-1/2 thousandths of an inch paint mark be considered as "above the plane of the barrel"?
Bob
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Have a friend that had a groove milled much like Rich's. He had a machinist do it and he cut a groove 1/8 by i/8 tapering to zero in 8 inches. He was deadly accurate with that gun.
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I think that that type of sighting groove would be considered legal and accepted as it is not above the plane of the barrel. My smoothbore has a centre line engraved at the junction of the breech and tang. However, before you do this to your own gun, I must warn that it is so close to your eye that it is out of focus, and thus adds very little to the establishing of a reference mark. I am much better off to try to focus on the wedding band junction on the barrel, and place my front sight in the centre of that.
Regarding using a full round barrel, such as on a Brown Bess musket, I had good results with my Long Land Pattern 1st Model of 1728, simply placing the front sight at top dead centre of the breech. You're better off to let your eye adjust your sighting hold than to rely on some gimmick.