AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: OldMtnMan on May 17, 2021, 04:26:12 PM
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The heavy barrel on my Hawken is getting the best of me. I'm trying to adjust to it but it's not going well. I'm considering having Bobby Hoyt bore it to .58 to save some weight. I'm guessing i'd save almost a pound of weight. Does that sound right? Barrel is 32".
For those who hunt with a .58. How do you like it? What sort of load do you use for deer and bear? Maybe elk if I can get help with meat. Going from a 177gr ball to a 280gr ball is going to give me more recoil but that's better than holding up the heavy barrel offhand.
So, you .58 shooters. How do you like it? Good or bad.
Thanks
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Guessed 1” barrel. .61 lbs lighter but a lot of that comes from in front of the support hand.
http://www.gunneyg.info/html/BarrelWeights.htm
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58 is ok if barrel is thick enough, 1"ATF and rib screws dont go in too deep.
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I should have mentioned it's 1". No idea about the screws.
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Call Bobby Hoyt he's a great guy to talk to,I have had 2 barrels rebored and a .54 barrel made by him all great shooters
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Call Bobby Hoyt he's a great guy to talk to,I have had 2 barrels rebored and a .54 barrel made by him all great shooters
What was the cost of the rebore?
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I have a .58 and like it a lot. Mine is the old Marshall rifle model, swamped and 37-38” long. Great handling gun.
On Saturday I was at the range with my .58 rifle and .69 smoothbore. For fun I dragged a piece of deadfall log about 10” in diameter out and shot it. It was punky wood but not falling apart. Both shot clean through it no problem. I was shooting 90 grains of FFG in the .58. I shot a deer quartering more than I thought with it last fall. The deer was down a steep hill. The ball went in high behind the front shoulder, through a near rib and near lung, then diaphragm, liver, and stomach, exiting low on last rib on the far side. That’s a long wound channel. It is way over what’s needed for deer but I like how the gun handles.
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You might be cutting it close with those rib screws. It sounds like you’re planning on doing mostly hunting with this gun, so think about having it rifled with a gain twist. Then you can shoot balls or heavier bullets for critters that take more killin’.
Hungry Horse
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Thanks Rich. Your load sounds good for elk. I should be able to use a lighter one for deer. Especially, at my closer range due to vision and primitive sights. The .58 is a good size ball.
I just thought of something. Shouldn't I use a bigger diameter ramrod than the 3/8" i'm using for the .50? Might be a problem finding bigger thimbles. Maybe Bobby can work that out?
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You might be cutting it close with those rib screws. It sounds like you’re planning on doing mostly hunting with this gun, so think about having it rifled with a gain twist. Then you can shoot balls or heavier bullets for critters that take more killin’.
Hungry Horse
Good grief! What animal would that be? I always used a .54 for elk.
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For me and Montana elk I use a .58, it works fine. Have not had to trail one yet that ran onto someone else's property. Get close and do the job right.
kw
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Just a small wrinkle in the quest for the .58. Bob will be limited to the size of the breech plug. I sent him a .50 to bore to a .58 for the same reason as you...... weight. He would only bore to a .54, so there would remain a shoulder for the breech plug. I suppose he could have re-breeched the barrel, but that would change everything. Probably to include the refinish of an Allen Martin stock.......not going there!
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A 3/8th inch rod will work for a 58. I would prefer a Hickory rod. Choke up on it. ;)
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I use a 58 with 80 grains FFG and a roundball for hunting. Have taken several white tails and an elk Send it to Bobby and he will tell what is safe to do and the best twist. Should set you back around $150 shipped. Ramrod should be fine. Good luck,
Dave
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All good info guys. I knew there would be on this forum.
I'll leave it up to Bobby. If he can go to .58 good. Otherwise a .54 will be better than the .50.
Pedersoli claims a weight of 9.7lbs for the .50 and 9.4lbs for the .54. They don't offer a .58.
I hate to make the barrel shorter but if it can only go to a .54 I could take off a couple of inches to 30". The weight would come off exactly where I want it to.
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Bobby Hoyt took my 50 caliber Browning Mountain rifle to 58 with a 1:66 twist. Great job. I use this gun for deer hunting here in CT. I use 90 grains of 2f for 1" groups 1.5" high at 50 yards. Some will say that a 58 is overkill for deer, but where I hunt the mountain laurel is so thick that even a well hit deer that runs off 50 or more yards will require about 4 hours of crawling on hands and knees to follow the blood trail. Since using the .58, every deer I have shot with it has been DRT. I had Bobby re-bore my T/C Renegade flint lock to .58 with the same twist. It too is a shooter, and is my go to deer rifle for our late muzzle loader season.
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Bobby Hoyt took my 50 caliber Browning Mountain rifle to 58 with a 1:66 twist. Great job. I use this gun for deer hunting here in CT. I use 90 grains of 2f for 1" groups 1.5" high at 50 yards. Some will say that a 58 is overkill for deer, but where I hunt the mountain laurel is so thick that even a well hit deer that runs off 50 or more yards will require about 4 hours of crawling on hands and knees to follow the blood trail. Since using the .58, every deer I have shot with it has been DRT. I had Bobby re-bore my T/C Renegade flint lock to .58 with the same twist. It too is a shooter, and is my go to deer rifle for our late muzzle loader season.
I don't have the terrain problem you do but sometimes I do hunt near private land. If I shoot game on public land and it runs to private land the land owner can keep the animal or just say we can't come on his land. That's if we can even find the owner. They don't always live on the land.
So, I agree that knocking them down is a good thing. Hopefully my barrel can go to a .58.
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Some people claim that if some is good, more is better. A 58 will do more than a 50 which BTW includes recoil. ;) :)
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Yeah, i'm expecting to get punched in the face but that's better than trying to hold up that heavy barrel.
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My favourite offhand rifle is my Chambers/Mark Silver Virginia rifle in .50 cal. But lately I've been finding it tiring to shoot long strings of shots, at 10 pounds. Barbie warned me about that when I bought the barrel, as these rifles were designed around .58 and .62 cal bores.
So I bought a .60 cal barrel from her and fit it to my rifle. Yesterday was the first day I shot our trail with the new barrel, and I am overjoyed with it! I missed only two or three shots out of 35, and nailed all of the long ones,ie: around 100 yards. I did not have issues with tiring or heat waves and there were only Daryl and I shooting. My favourite load for .60 cal is from a horn measure I made for my .60 cal Jaeger rifle, and it throws 87 gr. FFg GOEX. I was using balls cast from a .595 Lyman mould that throws balls at .598", and a 10 oz. denim patch that measures .021" crushed. The starter I had on the bag I have always used with this rifle was for the .50 cal barrel. and I found it almost impossible to load that tight combination with my starter. So Daryl kindly obliged me letting me use his starter for his .69 cal rifle, the knob of which is from the end of an ash baseball bat. Even though I have 'improved' my muzzle and was using good slippery lube, you really had to want that ball to load. Once into the bore, even that tight combo was seated with short strokes of the 3/8" hickory rod which tapers to 5/16" on the inboard end.
I have a Rapine .590" mould and will cast up some rounds and give it another go, but as I said, I'm really pleased with the .60 cal barrel. I didn't find recoil to be any issue whatsoever.
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If the breechplug on a barrel to be re-bored to a bigger caliber is 5/8” then it may not be desirable from a safety perspective to go to .58 or larger. If it’s 3/4” then no issues up to 16 gauge, I’d imagine.
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I would leave the caliber choice to the professional barrel makers. I have always preferred a stout breech with the explosion going off next to my face. You might do better shortening the barrel vs. boring it out to lose weight. You won't lose that much velocity by cutting off a few inches. Bob Woodfill's new book on Hawken rifles has a chart on page 133 that compares a 36 inch barrel to a 24 inch barrel(54 caliber). The largest difference was 140 feet per second at 100 and 120 grains. If you like the way the barrel shoots, take off some metal, add some powder and you will have what you want. My 58 caliber Hawken beat me up pretty good while working up a hunting load (up to 140 grains) off of a bench. I don't even feel the recoil when hunting, never really have while focused on the "shot". Go to gun is my 50 caliber flinter for most hunting including elk if legal. The 58 is preferred for things that will hunt me back.
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For comparison,
http://www.thegunworks.com/custprodgun.cfm?ProductID=528&do=detail&Cat2Option=yes
Not sure how much a re-bore and a new plug would cost.
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I would leave the caliber choice to the professional barrel makers. I have always preferred a stout breech with the explosion going off next to my face. You might do better shortening the barrel vs. boring it out to lose weight. You won't lose that much velocity by cutting off a few inches. Bob Woodfill's new book on Hawken rifles has a chart on page 133 that compares a 36 inch barrel to a 24 inch barrel(54 caliber). The largest difference was 140 feet per second at 100 and 120 grains. If you like the way the barrel shoots, take off some metal, add some powder and you will have what you want. My 58 caliber Hawken beat me up pretty good while working up a hunting load (up to 140 grains) off of a bench. I don't even feel the recoil when hunting, never really have while focused on the "shot". Go to gun is my 50 caliber flinter for most hunting including elk if legal. The 58 is preferred for things that will hunt me back.
I'm not really concerned with velocity. I do want the longer sighting plane. I can see the front sight better on a longer barrel. Plus, a Hawken with a short barrel doesn't look right to me. I would only consider shortening the barrel if it can't be bored to .58.
I know it can be bored to .54. So, as a 2nd choice to the .58 I could do a .54 bore and 2" off the length.
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Well if you cut 2 inches of barrel off, you will need to drill and tap for new rib screws and reposition the ramrod thimbles plus dovetail for new front sight position.
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I assume Bobby can do all that.
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Many fellows can do that work, but, do they - I guess, if commissioned to do it at the time.
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I just talked to me Lakota friend and we're going to do a cow elk hunt. I've decided that i've gotten too old to do any hunt by myself. Knees and back won't let me get the game skinned and quartered. I tried to simulate it and I can't do it anymore. My friend said it's no problem, he'll do all the work of getting the elk out. I'll pay him if he'll take it which I doubt but he will take meat, so he'll get half the meat.
I just talked to Bobby and we decided a .54 will be the best choice for me. He thought the .58 would be too much recoil after I told him a few of my problems. The .54 will also be legal to use a PRB in Colorado. It won't be lightened as much as the .58 would be but it will be better than what I have now. I'm used to getting a sight picture fast and shooting. Been doing that all my life. So, a little weight off the barrel will help.
I forgot to ask him his address but I have one that I don't know if it's his new address. I know he moved. Is this right?
700 Fairfield Station Rd.
Fairfield, PA. 17320
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His new address is 2379 Mount Hope Road
Fairfield, PA 17320
I bought a barrel from him recently and still have the package.
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I'm glad I asked.
Thank you. :)
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My Hawken has a 36 inch barrel and I agree it looks better than a short one. Being old and skinny it does get heavy after a few hours in the woods. The Hawken shop did make short barreled rifles for hunters that wanted them easier to handle on horseback. Its good to have choices.
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I have a couple of spots I can hunt that are pretty flat. It has a pretty good herd of cow elk in mid Sept when i'll be hunting. So, carrying the gun shouldn't be as bad as hauling it up and down the mountain like I normally do.
I'm sure i'll still get tired but it's nice to know if I get a cow that I don't have to get it out alone.
It would have been easier if I could have found a .54 when I bought the gun but they were all gone at the time. Having Bobby bore it is a lot cheaper than selling the gun and buying another new .54. Plus, with Bobby I get deep rifling. Which I like better than the shallow rifling the gun comes with.
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I use a 570 ball with .022 patch and either 90 grains of swiss 2F or 105 grains of goex 2F. Both group well and hit the same point of impact at 50 yards. I have a Rice barrel and this rifle shoots much better when loaded with heavier charges. 58 is my favorite caliber. Mine doesn't kick at all, but it is an earlier style rifle. A Hawken but plate could be a little bit of an issue. The 54 might be a better choice for you. Bobby will do a great job. I think you would like his .54 caliber in a gain twist.
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Sometimes a half inch shorter length of trigger pull will change the balance so it won't feel as muzzle heavy.
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Hooked butt plates and recoil do not compute for me, any more.
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Sometimes a half inch shorter length of trigger pull will change the balance so it won't feel as muzzle heavy.
It's already too short at 14". I have long arms.
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Hooked butt plates and recoil do not compute for me, any more.
Explain?
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I have a friend who shoots a modern muzzleloader. I asked him for a conical I could try in my gun. It weighs 270gr. That will give me an idea of what the .58 280gr ball will feel like.
If the recoil isn't bad i'll stick with the original plan and have Bobby bore it to .58. He said my breech plug is 3/4" so boring to a .58 is no problem. If i'm not happy with the recoil of the 270gr conical i'll do the .54.
It's not the one shot taken when hunting that recoil would bother me but all the practice I like to do all year.
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Just an FYI - my 58 cal. Hawken has a Hoyt barrel with a gain twist. It shoots great groups with round ball and and decent ones with a mini. I am still working on the mini load due to recoil off of a bench. Moving has given me a great excuse to wimp out for a while. If you do decide to have Hoyt re-bore it you should get great results.
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In my 58 Hawken, using a modified #57789 Lyman mould at 675gr., I got sub 3" (mostly around 2") groups at 100 yards using 165gr. of GOEX 2F
for 1,375fps mv. The rifle weighed almost 12 pounds, but was NOT fun to shoot with those loads. Bill Large bl. 60" or 66" twist.
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In my 58 Hawken, using a modified #57789 Lyman mould at 675gr., I got sub 3" (mostly around 2") groups at 100 yards using 165gr. of GOEX 2F
for 1,375fps mv. The rifle weighed almost 12 pounds, but was NOT fun to shoot with those loads. Bill Large bl. 60" or 66" twist.
That hurt just reading it. I'm not sure how much money i'd have to be paid to shoot that load but it would be a lot.
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My hunting area. Of course i'm in the timber and not the open areas. Right at timberline about 11,500ft. Elk, mule deer, and bear.
https://www.facebook.com/keeptrailsopen/videos/691906391177058/
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Daryl, are you using mink oil as a lube on your mini round. I have been experimenting with SPG bullet lube and have yet to try mink oil on that load.
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The heavy barrel on my Hawken is getting the best of me. I'm trying to adjust to it but it's not going well. I'm considering having Bobby Hoyt bore it to .58 to save some weight. I'm guessing i'd save almost a pound of weight. Does that sound right? Barrel is 32".
For those who hunt with a .58. How do you like it? What sort of load do you use for deer and bear? Maybe elk if I can get help with meat. Going from a 177gr ball to a 280gr ball is going to give me more recoil but that's better than holding up the heavy barrel offhand.
So, you .58 shooters. How do you like it? Good or bad.
Thanks
There are round bar calculators on the WWW. Figure the 50 at .52 and the 58 at .60 to allow for the groove dimension of the barrel. See what you get and if it will be worth it. I think its a waste of money myself. You simply need a different rifle or a 28"-30" barrel.
If weight is an issue order one of Jim Kiblers SMR kits in 45.
Dan
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A .54 is the minimum I can use on elk. If i'm going to have it bored out I might as well go to a .58 and lose more weight.
No need to change guns. That would cost the most to do and I like the Hawken I have.
I like the .58 better for bear too in case I don't get the elk tag.
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Nobody likes my hunting area? I should say one of my hunting areas. I have about 20 of them.
I do like the one I showed. It has a few old crude log cabins or what's left of them. Probably built by a mountain man trapper. Lot's of beavers there.
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I have a couple of spots I can hunt that are pretty flat. It has a pretty good herd of cow elk in mid Sept when i'll be hunting. So, carrying the gun shouldn't be as bad as hauling it up and down the mountain like I normally do.
I'm sure i'll still get tired but it's nice to know if I get a cow that I don't have to get it out alone.
It would have been easier if I could have found a .54 when I bought the gun but they were all gone at the time. Having Bobby bore it is a lot cheaper than selling the gun and buying another new .54. Plus, with Bobby I get deep rifling. Which I like better than the shallow rifling the gun comes with.
Weight reduction going to 54 will be minimal. I would have it cut to a 48 twist (this was the twist originally used by Hawken) and have it cut to 30" or maybe 28". This will give you far greater decrease in weight than 50 to 54. A considerable number of surviving original Hawkens were shortened. The 54 is a better idea for elk and the 48 twist will likely shoot better and tolerate all the powder you can tolerate. 100+ grains anyway. I think that twists for rifles under 58 are too slow these days.
Bear? Remember the Black Bears in the East were pretty large, larger than the Western Blacks and few original Kentuckys were over 52 caliber. Both from surviving rifles and from descriptions from the colonial era.
A 58 with one inch barrel in a Hawken stock design would not be my first choice.
Dan
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We do have some good size bears. Not common but you never know when you'll run into one.
An example.
https://www.craigdailypress.com/news/craig-resident-nabs-703-pound-bear-possible-state-record/
Another
https://www.skyhinews.com/news/hunter-shoots-huge-bear-near-fraser/
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Dave,
I understand the gun I own is not practical for me. However, I love the Hawken rifle and have since 1980. I try to keep it as close to the original as possible. I can shoot and hunt with the gun as is. Any weight I can get off the barrel will help me keep it shouldered a bit longer. Going to a .54 is strictly to make it legal for elk in my state. It seems foolish to do that though. My main goal is the lighten up the barrel and add some more knock down power. It won't cost a penny more to go to a .58 instead of a .54. I believe taking 3/4 lb off the barrel is something I can feel. I don't want to shorten it because the longer sighting plane helps me see the front sight better.
So, after more thought on this. I believe going to a .58 is my best choice. I'm aware the original Hawken was a 1-48 twist and that's what the gun is now. I don't mind staying with 1-48 as long a s it's a deep groove. It's not right now and i'm not sure what Pedersoli was thinking by using a shallow groove? They make a hunter version with a faster twist for conicals. So, mine was made for a PRB. Why the shallow groove.
Anyway, I talked with Bobby about the .54. I'll see what he recommends for a .58 twist. I don't plan on using heavy powder loads, so a faster twist seems like the hot tip.
Thanks for your posts.
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I have a Lancaster with a 44”, .58 caliber barrel. I use ~90-100 grains of 3FFF and a patched round ball. As for use on deer, let’s just say, it’s quite sufficient. 8) Last mule deer buck I shot with it jumped, did a two step and dropped dead as a doornail within 10 feet of being hit in the frontal chest cavity. That .58 caliber ball is a big ol’ punkin’.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8111/WhTy61.jpg)
Ez
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I have a Lancaster with a 44”, .58 caliber barrel. I use ~90-100 grains of 3FFF and a patched round ball. As for use on deer, let’s just say, it’s quite sufficient. 8) Last buck I shot with it jumped, did a two step and dropped dead as a doornail within 10 feet of being hit in the frontal chest cavity. That .58 caliber ball is a big ol’ punkin’.
Ez
That's what I was thinking. That hunting area I show above has a few old mining claims in the area that are private property. If I shot and animal that dies on one of those claims i'd never get it back. I don't believe the owners of those mine claims even live in Colorado. A .58 ball should knock a muley off it's feet.
Plus, i'm thinking a heavy Hawken that's a .58 seems so right. If a grumpy bear wants to eat my deer it's going to eat some lead. The more lead the better.
Good job with the muley.
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Pete- a 48" twist will shoot just fine with about 85gr. of 2F. Taylor's 16 bore has a 48" rate of twist and it does just fine with 85gr. - 2 to 2 1/2" at 100 meters (109yds).
The vel. in that 30"or + inch .58 barrel will be about 1,350fps.
My 24" .58 did 1,308fps with a .575"ball, .021" patch and 75gr. 2F. Now, I realize you won't be loading that tight, but the ballistics should suffice.
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The barrel is 32" and will stay that way. I don't want to shorten it.
I only use a .015 patch now but could probably use an .018. Pedersoli makes tight bores. We'll have to wait to see how Bobby makes it. I'm not against thick patches if I can get it down.
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Don't know what your wood working abilities are. But if you change the under rib to a hickory under rib, and pin your pipes to it you'll cut about 8 ounces off the gun.
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Don't know what your wood working abilities are. But if you change the under rib to a hickory under rib, and pin your pipes to it you'll cut about 8 ounces off the gun.
I never heard of doing that before. That saves more weight than I would have guessed.
I couldn't do it myself though.
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Some under ribs are solid; a few are formed sheet metal and light. I’d guess most under ribs I’ve seen weigh a couple ounces.
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Rich.....As heavy as this barrel feels it's probably a solid rib.
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You could skeletonize that portion of the rib with a 1/4" drill bit. remove rib and drill a bunch of shallow holes part way through and then replace rib. Not much weight reduction but some. :-\
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I'll wait and see how it feels after I get Bobby to bore it to .58. Hopefully, that will be enough for it to feel comfortable to shoot.
I just talked to my Lakota friend and he said he's 100% sure he can help me on the elk hunt. He said don't worry about skinning, quartering, and hauling the meat out. He'd do it all. That's a big load off me. I know I can't do any of it anymore. Old age and medical problems have no sympathy for an old guy who still wants to hunt.
My problem now is getting an elk tag. I only put in for a deer and bear tag thinking I could do those alone. It turns out I can't and i'll turn them back in and let another hunter get them as left over tags. So, my only hope to hunt this year is to get an elk tag in the 2nd draw or as a leftover tag. Fingers and toes are crossed I get lucky. I do miss elk meat.
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I bought a .58 barrel so I could switch it with my .54 Hawken. Everything is the same on the barrel except the .54 is 37 inches long including the breech plug. I wanted to eliminate as much weight as possible.
I took the leftover under rib from the .54 and weighed it. I divided that the length to give me the weight in inches. I also weighed the thimbles. If I remember correctly the solid under rib came in a hair under 10 ounces by my calculation, since I did not want to remove the under rib and weigh it.
I made a hickory under rib and I pinned two thimbles I made. I screwed it to the barrel with 5-40 screws. I also epoxied it to keep moisture from getting under it. Long story short the hickory under rib with thimbles came in at two ounces.
All that and the difference in the weight of the barrel brought the .58 at just under nine pounds.
With the .54 barrel that Hawken weighs in at ten and a half pounds.
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I just talked to my Lakota friend and he said he's 100% sure he can help me on the elk hunt. He said don't worry about skinning, quartering, and hauling the meat out. He'd do it all.
All I can say is your Lakota buddy is one heck of a friend. I hope you are planning on letting him take home some of that elk he’s gonna labor over.
Ez
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I just talked to my Lakota friend and he said he's 100% sure he can help me on the elk hunt. He said don't worry about skinning, quartering, and hauling the meat out. He'd do it all.
All I can say is your Lakota buddy is one heck of a friend. I hope you are planning on letting him take home some of that elk he’s gonna labor over.
Ez
Yes, he gets half the meat. Right down the middle. We each get a loin, backstrap, rear quarter, front shoulder and neck and rib meat. He told me I don't have to do that but I feel it's not enough. I'd like to pay him too but he'd never take it. We're going to use his truck because my Jeep is too small for both of us. I'll buy all his gas and make sure he ends up with a full tank.
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I bought a .58 barrel so I could switch it with my .54 Hawken. Everything is the same on the barrel except the .54 is 37 inches long including the breech plug. I wanted to eliminate as much weight as possible.
I took the leftover under rib from the .54 and weighed it. I divided that the length to give me the weight in inches. I also weighed the thimbles. If I remember correctly the solid under rib came in a hair under 10 ounces by my calculation, since I did not want to remove the under rib and weigh it.
I made a hickory under rib and I pinned two thimbles I made. I screwed it to the barrel with 5-40 screws. I also epoxied it to keep moisture from getting under it. Long story short the hickory under rib with thimbles came in at two ounces.
All that and the difference in the weight of the barrel brought the .58 at just under nine pounds.
With the .54 barrel that Hawken weighs in at ten and a half pounds.
Your gun is light with that long barrel. Mine is 10 lbs with only a 32" barrel. Is yours 1"? How long is the .58 barrel?
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Sorry for putting you all through this but everything just changed.
I was looking in my closet for something and I found a back support I used to use years ago. I had forgot all about it. It's just for my lower back but when pulled tight it really helps my back.
So, I put it on and pulled it as tight as I could. My first thought was...this feels good. I look over at the Hawken and thought maybe the support will help me shoulder it. I grab the gun and shoulder it. No pain! I could hold it up about 4 seconds. More than enough to get a shot off. I was lucky to get 1 second without the support and it hurt to do that.
I had to go shoot the gun and see how it all worked out. I drew a small bullseye on a cardboard box to have something to shoot at.
First shot with 70 gr Goex 2F at 25 yds. Dead center. I couldn't stop smiling. Recoil was so soft it felt like a .22. A heavy gun does have some advantages. I then tried 80 gr. Still really soft shooting. Still dead center. I then tried 90 gr. Now I could feel some recoil but still easy to take. Still dead center. I'm sure the loads would be different elevations on the target if I was at a longer distance. Ok, I said to myself. Let's try 100 gr. Not a hard recoil at all but did poke my thumb in the nose a little bit. LOP is a bit short but not noticeable until I tried 100 gr. The shot wasn't dead center like the other loads. So, I shot 4 shot groups with each load at 50 yds.
Without question the 90 gr load was the sweet spot. I felt good enough about it to mark the ramrod for that load.
I believe at my max distance of 50 yds that 90 gr of 2F is enough for a cow elk which is all i'll be hunting from now on. I never was a trophy hunter but now for sure all I want is the experience of another elk hunt and some tasty elk meat.
This saves me some money too. I won't have to send the barrel to Bobby with the cost of having it bored, plus shipping both ways. No need to buy .58 shooting supplies either. I have everything I need already.
I'm impressed with Pedersoli. I'm shooting good groups and they're dead center. I haven't touched the sights since buying the gun new. The first gun i've ever bought that did that.
Whatcha think guys?
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Glad that the brace works for you!
But you still need a 58! ;D
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;D
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Oh man! What's the matter with me? I completely forgot that a .50 PRB isn't legal for elk in Colorado. Well, I would have used the .50 if Colorado didn't go stupid on us.
I guess i'll be sending the barrel to Bobby after all. Nuts!!
I'll just do a .54.
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I like sound of a .54 for elk much more than a .50, even for cows.
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I bought a .58 barrel so I could switch it with my .54 Hawken. Everything is the same on the barrel except the .54 is 37 inches long including the breech plug. I wanted to eliminate as much weight as possible.
I took the leftover under rib from the .54 and weighed it. I divided that the length to give me the weight in inches. I also weighed the thimbles. If I remember correctly the solid under rib came in a hair under 10 ounces by my calculation, since I did not want to remove the under rib and weigh it.
I made a hickory under rib and I pinned two thimbles I made. I screwed it to the barrel with 5-40 screws. I also epoxied it to keep moisture from getting under it. Long story short the hickory under rib with thimbles came in at two ounces.
All that and the difference in the weight of the barrel brought the .58 at just under nine pounds.
With the .54 barrel that Hawken weighs in at ten and a half pounds.
Your gun is light with that long barrel. Mine is 10 lbs with only a 32" barrel. Is yours 1"? How long is the .58 barrel?
I weigh my guns on a digital scale. Barrels are one inch across the flats. Both have Griffith breech plugs.
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Has anybody tried these? I've read a bunch of reviews and they seem positive. Lot's of guys use them in a 1-48 twist like my barrel has. 20gr heavier than a .54 PRB and a better BC. They should hit harder.
The best part is they're legal for elk in Colorado and $18 for 50 is a good price.
https://www.muzzle-loaders.com/hornady-pa-conical-bullet-50-caliber-240-grain-lead-h6617.html
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No - have not used those. Note the lack of decent lube grooves.
Likely a wax/wash of sorts. It will most likely not be loadable for a second shot
without "swabbing" the bore, but trying them is the only way to find out.
I thought the .50 was to heavy?
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It is but it will still be heavy bored to .54. It will cost me $200 with shipping to bore it out and I could be 2 months without the gun. The hunt is in 3 months. I'd like to be shooting it all summer.
These conicals could be an easy answer. I could also sell the gun and buy a lighter .54 but that's not my first choice.
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A .54 will, undoubtedly work for elk. I will just say, too much gun beats the heck out of the alternative. 8)
Ez
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That's true. I really should poke it out to a .58. I don't want to shoot anything but a PRB and some of the old bores (bears) get pretty grumpy. They've been known to stalk hunters. I'd feel better about shooting a .58 ball than a .54 or a tiny .50.
I remember Roundball used to say you need whompability or something like that.
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A quick question. Which barrel would be lighter?
30" .54 1"
32" .54 15/16"
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Tell me what you guys think of this gun? It weighs 8.5 lbs. Way better than the 10 lb Pedersoli.
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/halfstock-hawken-style-54-cal.132748/
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Well, I bought it. It was too good a deal to pass up.
No more talk about barrel weight. You all seem to have had enough of that. Me too.
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Good trade, now to find a good buy on a 58!
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With a Douglas barrel it should be a real good shooter. I’m sure it will handle well for you.
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Thanks, Rich.
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Looks like a beautiful rifle. You need to give us a range report after you get her to the range! ;D
Ez
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Here's some targets the seller shot over the years. I don't know what the story is or what the flyers are all about.
(https://i.ibb.co/HzDyZ1L/IMG-3718.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VSWG6r0)
(https://i.ibb.co/W0Ffsb9/IMG-3719.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FXJznSv)
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Ok, I found out the story. I can't read what the targets say on them with my vision. The targets were shot at 25, 75, and 100 yds. The shots that look like flyers aren't. he was working on where to hold and sight adjustments. Everytime he settle down to shoot a group yoou see the results. The blue target was 75 yds offhand.
I'd say he was a good shooter and so is the gun. I'm sure I can't do better, so take them as the targets for the gun. I'm happy with it by looking at the targets.
It should be a good hunting gun.
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Nice looking rifle, particularly for the price. Looks like the seller may have been shooting some lighter loads. You could probably tighten up the group with a little experimentation. Good luck on your hunt.
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Looking pretty good. Imho, none of his loads are very close to elk loads.
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No, he shot light loads. It was 70gr at 100yds. Ok, for small deer but that's twice as far as i'll shoot an elk. I'm thinking 90 gr with Goex 2F at 50 yds. Plus, it will be a cow.
I thought he shot good groups. All those shots not in the group was him making sight adjustments at different time. That's pretty much all he shot the gun.
It has a looser bore than the Pedersoli. He used a .535 ball and .018 patch. I have no idea how tight that feels. Maybe I can use a Daryl load if I can get it down. :)
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You could give the crown a good slick Finnish, that would help in starting a tight combo.
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I always do that. The last Pedersoli I just sold really needed it. It was cutting cleaning patches.
I'm thinking the Douglas barrel will be pretty good.
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Hate to cast doubt, but - I believe, due to the close group size of the tight groups, that all were set at a close range, whether 25 or 50yds orbsome other close range.. I do not for a minute believe the 25/50/75/100yd claim. Sorry, just cannot absorb that by what I am seeing. Does not compute.
90gr. should work just fine at the range specified and likely to 100yds as well. Best wishes.
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I was thinking the same thing but didn't want to insult him by saying I don't believe you shot at 100 yds. I would never say that to anybody though.
He could be an ex-military sniper for all I know.
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I believe Pete was just quoting what was written on the back of the targets, and/or quoting what the seller said about the targets.
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Yes, I was going by what he told me in a PM.
Even if the groups were shot at 25-50yds from a bench. It shows the potential of the gun and i'm happy.
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I understand you were just reiterating what was marked on the targets.
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Except, I can't read what's on the targets. I'm not sure what he told me and what's written on the targets are the same?
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Pete, my old Pedersoli .45 was one of the most accurate ML that I have had the pleasure of shooting. It had been a display gun for Pedersoli's American dealership, and I got it at at really nice price.
First time I took it to the range (old clay pit!), I loaded a .44 ball with some unknown patch material - didn't know at the time to mike the material. Used 75 gr Goex 3F. No bench there, so I took a prone position, and shot. The ball nicked the left side of the 1" bull. Two subsequent shots made a group just over 3/4". I put my "sight adjusting tool" (brass hammer) and left the sights where they were. Wish I still had it.
Building a .62 cal Jaeger now, 29 1/2" barrel, swamped, 1.25" ATF. Barrel is by Charlie, and he did a fine job. Got a lot of wood to remove from this chunk of pretty English Walnut, but it is coming along. Hope to inlet the lock later today, or at least get it started.
I have no problem holding it up, but really cannot walk very far before the hip joints start screaming at me. One of the VA orthopedic guys is going to check out my hip joints in two weeks, and we will find out if I get new ones. Hope not, as I live alone, and my trusty Service Dog, Sunny, refuses to even make coffee for me!
But, if and when they fix the hips, Iwould like to borrow your Lakota Sioux friend. He can have at least 75% of the meat. And like you I have been wondering about a short bullet for the Jaeger. The twist that Charlie put in is 1:57 - it may work or may not.
Been enjoying reading your posts, and want you to keep going with your .58 plan. My first ML was a .58 - 1863 Springfield! Good honest shooter, it was.
Take care, my friend.
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Craig..............The problem is I sold the Pedersoli. I wasn't sure boring it to a .58 was going to make it light enough. Maybe I made a mistake by thinking that. It's not too late to change my mind because the buyer is really dragging his feet on sending me a check. He's telling me Tues now. He should have sent it last Thur.
So, I have another gun that's being held for me but it may fall through if I don't pay him. Which I can't do until I get paid for the Pedersoli.
I asked a question earlier in this thread but nobody responded. I'm comparing the gun I sold to the one i'm buying.
Which would be lighter. Both are 1" barrels.
30" .54 or 32" .58
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Give me some guess's guys? Which is lighter? Both 1"
32" .58
30" .54
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Just wondering, but won’t a lighter rifle kick harder with a big game load. That might be worse than a little extra weight. Maybe cross sticks would help?
TCA
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I would guess that the 32" .58 is lighter.
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Just wondering, but won’t a lighter rifle kick harder with a big game load. That might be worse than a little extra weight. Maybe cross sticks would help?
TCA
It's so soft kicking now that losing some weight will still be ok. If the gun is too barrel heavy it can crack my spine. I have Osteoporosis. That's 1000 times worse than more recoil.
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I would guess that the 32" .58 is lighter.
Thanks. I just couldn't decide which one was lighter.
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1"x36"s
50cal 6.3#
54 5.9
58 5.6
from TOTW
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Good stuff.
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The .50 caliber is .175 pound per inch. The .54 is .164 pound per inch times 30 is 4.92 pounds or 4 pounds 14.72 ounces. The .58 is .156 pound per inch times 32 is 4 .99 pounds or 4 pounds 15.8 ounces, or 1.08 ounces heavier. But the .54 is loaded with a 230 grain ball which weighs .52 ounce. The .58 ball weighs 276 grains or .63 ounce. So the .58 is 1.71 grains heavier with an equal powder charge. A larger charge is likely but inconsequential. It is sixes.
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I just noted there are 5 pages of discussion here focused on how to get a lighter, bigger bore rifle for a factory gun price! ;D
Solutions offered have included shortening the barrel to lose weight, with its pros and cons, re-boring to a bigger caliber to lose weight, getting an entirely suitable rifle at a very low price from a fellow ALR member, and buying a rifle off an auction site. Darned if I can think of anything else.
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Only thing not discussed is perhaps shooting lighter projectiles and powder charges ;D
ie, switching to Swiss , would allow maybe a 10% by weight reduction over GOEX . Every little bit counts ! ;D
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Don't forget boring 7 or 8 1" holes through the stock or turning the butt into a skeleton stock.
Tim C.
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Good answers guys. Well, except boring holes in the stock. :)
Thanks.
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I still think a cross stick rest would negate most of the weight concerns, especially since recoil is no concern. TCA
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I still think a cross stick rest would negate most of the weight concerns, especially since recoil is no concern. TCA
Ok, for practice. Not so good for hunting my style.
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2 ounces is nothing.
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2 ounces is nothing.
Not what I meant but that seems too light for standing sticks.
You know I still hunt. I'm moving slow with the gun in both hands ready for a quick shot if needed. How do I get sticks to work in that situation? I only shoot standing offhand. Worn out knees force that.
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An Allen monopod adjusts up to 61 inches. Might double as a light walking pole.
Just a thought. Sorry if it’s a bad one.
TCA
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An Allen monopod adjusts up to 61 inches. Might double as a light walking pole.
Just a thought. Sorry if it’s a bad one.
TCA
I have one that I use for hiking. It's not practical for me to hunt with. If I sat and ambushed it would work good.
A lighter gun is my answer. I know that and have for years. It gets worse every year and what do I do? Buy the heaviest gun i've ever owned. I sure didn't get smarter as I got older.
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Pete I think you will like that Rifle you just bought. I think it is worth what the seller was asking for it. Should be a lot lighter than what you have now.
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There's lots of forked sticks that could be cut!!
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While i'm sneaking along moving slower than a snail and the gun in both hands.
What do I do with the stick?
My shots are done quick. Almost snap shots sometimes.
How do I do that if I use a stick?
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I'll be ok guys. I think the new gun with a .54 30" barrel will work for me. If the weight gets too bad I can change my hunting style to ambush. Then I can sit in a bush and use sticks.
A good thing about elk is I can call them in and ambush should work good. I've never ambushed or called, so it will be a new experience for me.
Thanks again all.
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I just noted there are 5 pages of discussion here focused on how to get a lighter, bigger bore rifle for a factory gun price! ;D
Solutions offered have included shortening the barrel to lose weight, with its pros and cons, re-boring to a bigger caliber to lose weight, getting an entirely suitable rifle at a very low price from a fellow ALR member, and buying a rifle off an auction site. Darned if I can think of anything else.
Here's one other idea, find somebody with a metal lathe and have them turn the last 2/3 of the barrel round instead of octagon. Biggest weight savings for the effort I can think of.
My main hunting rifle is a .58 and weight was a primary consideration when I built it. Colerain 38", swamped D profile, Oct/Round barrel. Nice piece of curly red maple, not the super dense and heavy sugar maple. Finished rifle was just over 6 pounds and carries like a dream. I shoot 90 grains FF with a patched .570 ball. Taken a bunch of deer with it, about half dropping on the spot (when I think to shoot high shoulder instead of lungs), and one 354lb black bear that also fell dead in its tracks (although that was at only 12 yards). Fall 2022 have plans to test it on elk, too. ;D
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That really came out light. I never would have guessed a 38" barrel could come out that light. You should have no problem with elk.
The Hawken I bought is 8.5 lbs. I'll have to accept it as light as i'm going to get. My problem is I don't want to spoil the looks of it being a Hawken. I plan on going to BP shoots and want to keep the gun as PC as possible.
I want to see how the gun shoulders when I get it. I always have the option to bore it to a .58 but prefer to not mess with a Douglas barrel.
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Re-boring a Douglas Bl. might be a problem. Bobby Hoyte would know.
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Whatever you decide to do I do not think you will regret going to a larger bore. I hardly shoot anything smaller than .54 now. Thats mostly because of the calibers of the guns I own, but I think I will be grateful for the size when I go hunting with one of them. .54 or .58 is good for anything up to elk. There is also just a fun factor of slinging a larger ball. Yes you go through more powder and lead, but I have noticed (at least in my experience) all forms of blackpowder shooting is significantly lower than that required to feed a habit of using unmentionables. If the rifle can be bored to .58 I think you will certainly be happy. However, if the biggest you can go is .54, I think you will still really notice the difference, and be happy with the performance. If you can do .58 I would do that and be very happy. But if the largest you can go is .54, I think you will still be happy.
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Well, I had to back out of deal on the Hawken with curly maple. Itbroke my heart but my buyer for the Pedersoli said shipping charges are too high and I was paying for half of it. It took him a whole week to decide that.
I've grown tired of trying to sell the Pedersoli and i'm not going to try anymore. I'll just keep it. It's a nice gun. I want to shoot the gun through the summer and be ready for the Sept hunt. I don't want to give up the barrel to Bobby for what could be 2 months. He's pretty busy.
I'll pay for the muley buck tag I got. I've been holding off doing that. Somehow i'll have to struggle through doing the whole hunt myself.
If i get lucky and get an elk tag from the 2nd drawing or leftover list i'll have my bud to help me. I'll use some sort of conical to to make a legal load.
Next winter I can send the barrel to Bobby if this fall didn't work out as a .50.
I'm glad that's over. I'm sure you all are too.
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I started snooping around for a new possible bag. I wanted it made from elk because I love elk.
I just bought this one. Does it fit into 1850 or so?
(https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thegunworks.com%2FPhotos%2FACF298.jpg&hash=1728eadee0026698651a717d0332618ea81b6430)
(https://i.ibb.co/74qkH2M/ACF298.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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I just noted there are 5 pages of discussion here focused on how to get a lighter, bigger bore rifle for a factory gun price! ;D
Solutions offered have included shortening the barrel to lose weight, with its pros and cons, re-boring to a bigger caliber to lose weight, getting an entirely suitable rifle at a very low price from a fellow ALR member, and buying a rifle off an auction site. Darned if I can think of anything else.
Here's one other idea, find somebody with a metal lathe and have them turn the last 2/3 of the barrel round instead of octagon. Biggest weight savings for the effort I can think of.
My main hunting rifle is a .58 and weight was a primary consideration when I built it. Colerain 38", swamped D profile, Oct/Round barrel. Nice piece of curly red maple, not the super dense and heavy sugar maple. Finished rifle was just over 6 pounds and carries like a dream. I shoot 90 grains FF with a patched .570 ball. Taken a bunch of deer with it, about half dropping on the spot (when I think to shoot high shoulder instead of lungs), and one 354lb black bear that also fell dead in its tracks (although that was at only 12 yards). Fall 2022 have plans to test it on elk, too. ;D
Did you purchase it from Colerain as octagon-round in .58 caliber? Was it the Early American pattern,? I know Scott will turn any of the swamped octagon barrels into octagon-round if you ask for it.
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Time for this one to end 5 pages and nothing resolved. Now into page 6 about guns that are knowingly against our rules. Page 6 has been removed.
If you want to discuss further do it via PM or emails
The topic is locked.
Dennis