AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: rlm on May 19, 2021, 04:28:25 PM
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Some Kentucky Rifle prices from recent Morphys Auction. Early Bucks Co rifle 192k, J P Beck rifles 120k,78k, and 50.4K. Lafayette, Chief Tunis rifle 210k. I don’t have access to all the returns. These were listed on Facebook. I’m not sure if these prices include the buyers premium. If you are not a dealer you would also be subject to additional PA 6% sales tax. I really liked the untouched Beck and felt it may have been a little under the money.
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It's nice to see the prices bumping up again!
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Speaking of prices: this article describes the price (about $306,000) for which the rifle from the Rochester Museum sold as "a value that the auction house and serious collectors of such guns said obliterated the record amount paid for a Kentucky rifle at auction."
https://www.rochestercitynewspaper.com/rochester/rare-rochester-historical-society-kentucky-rifle-fetches-record-306000-at-auction/Content?oid=13188522&fbclid=IwAR0gbc15ha3IRj8Uu9gBeHvt04E31KhBBZYbpUzJslO40uqKSyqrQJH59YE
I had heard years ago (and have often repeated, perhaps wrongly, I now realize) that an Oerter rifle sold to a New York collector for considerably more than $300,000. Perhaps that story that I've been repeating vastly inflated the sale price?
Do we believe that, at $306,000, the sale price of this Rochester rifle has surpassed all previous sale prices?
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In a search of Morphy’s results it would be the auction record. I recall the Oerter was a private sale. At least the article is good exposure for the “hobby”. I think I recall another auction broke $306k. A Kuntz maybe. Memory fails. I’m glad my beloved western PA rifles don’t play in that park😁. I recall a Savage 99 going over 350k but that’s another topic. Congrats to the buyer!
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Things were strong over here in Rock Island last weekend as well. Prices realized are now online. The Resor "ghost rifle" brought $138,000, and the Running Deer Rifle brought $161,000.
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Yes, the Oerter rifle was a private sale, so won't count as an auction record.
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John -- Do you recall (roughly) what the Oerter rifle that sold privately sold for? I understand that, as a private sale, there was no public record. But what do folks think it sold for? -- Scott
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Well Scott, private sale means it also has to stay private, and I'm not at liberty to say.
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Well Scott, private sale means it also has to stay private, and I'm not at liberty to say.
Yes, if you are privy to the actual figures, you should keep it to yourself. It's not ethical to reveal privileged information.
But for others (not you), those who are not privy to privileged information, there is nothing unethical about saying "I heard it sold at a private sale for ...."
That said, I certainly understand if nobody wants to state here what they've heard. [And I've removed the specific figure I heard from my post above.]
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Just so ya know..! I decided not to bid.... Lol. Oldtravler
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8) 8)... ALL money is good money,... !!! .... money is no object,... I don't object to it at all,... !!!! ..... the signed Alfred Bearden Tennessee rifle sold recently to a member here for "good money", .... he got a bargain,... !!!... he would agree it was "good money" to him,... !!!
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My personal opinion on private sales after 45 years of collecting, is that they are just that, PRIVATE.
How ever there is nothing wrong with inquiring. Besides, it's always fun to ask the price and then try to figure out if the number they give you is high because they are bragging, or low because the purchaser is afraid to get the response, "Wow, you really paid way too much for that!".
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It never seems clear cut on some high dollar sales between individuals. When the Oerter rifle was sold some years ago for a huge sum, a number of KRA members apparently learned what the numbers were. It was a private sale between two members, worked out between them in confidence, so how did the numbers get out to others if the buyer and seller really wanted to keep it confidential?
I think private-sale values get "leaked" intentionally at times, to help support the future value of the gun when it comes up for sale the next time... as all of these great rifles eventually do.
Shelby Gallien
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My personal opinion on private sales after 45 years of collecting, is that they are just that, PRIVATE.
It was a private sale between two members, worked out between them in confidence, so how did the numbers get out to others if the buyer and seller really wanted to keep it confidential?
I think private-sale values get "leaked" intentionally at times, to help support the future value of the gun when it comes up for sale the next time... as all of these great rifles eventually do.
Excellent question.
The only thing it takes for a private sale to stay private is for both parties to not speak about the prices.
Some numbers certainly got out to others, since I heard them. I guess, given the possible motives involved in leaking, there's no way to know whether what I heard was accurate or high (or low).
Doesn't much matter, obviously. Just gossip!
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Scott,
That about wraps this up, perhaps one of the parties was either bragging or complaining.
Kent
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Knowing the two men involved, both class acts who handle and know the value of exceptional rifles, I strongly doubt either man was bragging or complaining.
I think a more fair assessment is that neither party was overly worried about the price getting out, close friends/associates asked about it, and it was divulged on a limited basis. Since future sales are often fueled by prior sale prices, letting "ball park" figures out helps support the rifle's value to potential future buyers. Will the Oerter rifle sell for the same amount in the future? No one knows, but knowing approximately what a highly experienced, knowledgeable collector was willing to pay for it in the past will help keep its market value up.
Shelby Gallien
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Shelby,
Thanks for the clarification, sounds reasonable.
I will not be in the market for the rifle, until I get my next Covid Relief check :)
Kent
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TANSELMAN'S and JTR'S observations I can echo as my own experience as well!
WABEEK
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Since Mikes name is brought up I will throw my opinion into the mix as well. Mike is a true gentleman and true to his word. I've never dealt with a finer person.
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I must echo the sentiments and comments of the last responses. Mike is sold gold and to have him brought into this discussion when the topic was clearly "Auction Guns" is not acceptable. Furthermore, I think that all comments relating to him should be stricken from this forum.
Dick
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... to have him brought into this discussion when the topic was clearly "Auction Guns" is not acceptable. Furthermore, I think that all comments relating to him should be stricken from this forum.
I defer entirely to what the moderators think is appropriate, of course. I had never heard the gentleman's name before somebody mentioned it on this forum.
It is important to note, however, that the topic was not "Auction Guns": it was (and is) "Good rifles bring good money."
Scott
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To Dick and others... The seller of the Oerter rifle was/is a known national dealer in antique arms, and I believe other arms dealers have been mentioned on this forum in the past. Therefore I did not think it inappropriate to mention him as a dealer. However, it is probably best to avoid names as Dick has suggested, so I have deleted references to him in my prior posts.
Shelby Gallien
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Nevertheless, Scott, this went a bit beyond the bounds of decorum. Thank you Shelby for your concern and action. I understand that these thing happen without giving full thought to what is written, but there are limits. Thank you to all who understand the 'ins and outs' of antique gun buying and selling. To those of you who do not, you have some things to learn.
Dick
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Well, so much for "Private Sale".
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Much of this “really, this is for insiders; those in the know and in the club” is discouraging for anyone considering becoming a serious collector. And maybe that’s the goal.
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And maybe that’s the goal.
Well, no offence, but a big problem with mentioning specifics on this forum is the fact that a certain group of members seem to think it their duty to criticize and deride most any nice gun that is mentioned or shown here.
I'll leave it at that....
John
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Well, no offence, but a big problem with mentioning specifics on this forum is the fact that a certain group of members seem to think it their duty to criticize and deride most any nice gun that is mentioned or shown here.
I'll leave it at that....
John
It is unfortunate that John does have a great point. I'm quite sure that some members of the forum would love to post some pictures of rifles in their collection, but are reluctant for fear of having them "raked over the coals".
I have a rifle I recently acquired from a friend and I am now researching, disassembling, and photographing. The problem I have is that I will probably not share the info I find, because this rifle was the topic of a post earlier this year in which it was ridiculed and derided.
Kent Johns
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John and Kent make very good points. I would love to show off some of my stuff, but don't too often because you know you can expect very unenlightening or rude comments.
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Well, no offence, but a big problem with mentioning specifics on this forum is the fact that a certain group of members seem to think it their duty to criticize and deride most any nice gun that is mentioned or shown here.
I'll leave it at that....
John
It is unfortunate that John does have a great point. I'm quite sure that some members of the forum would love to post some pictures of rifles in their collection, but are reluctant for fear of having them "raked over the coals".
I have a rifle I recently acquired from a friend and I am now researching, disassembling, and photographing. The problem I have is that I will probably not share the info I find, because this rifle was the topic of a post earlier this year in which it was ridiculed and derided.
Kent Johns
Exactly!
More than a few guys with some of the very best collections used to regularly post here, but no longer. Sadly, thanks to a few, this place has become known as Unfriendly to antique longrifles.
John
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I’m sorry guys but I must be looking at a different forum than y’all. Folks here seem to me to be a bit too polite. On more occasions than I can count a member will post a piece (both antique and contemporary) that is obviously a clunker and get glowing comments from the members. Maybe I’m not reading them correctly but most critical observations are done so tastefully with no intent of snobbery..... I believe that this bunch has the good taste to hold their negative comments to themselves.
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I for one will have to agree with JTR. I will ever again offer photos for the virtual library. In one past occasion I offered photos of an attributed G. Schreyer rifle thoroughly describing restorations etc.only to have comments made, taken out of context, suggesting that the rifle was probably a Koons, not Schreyer. I emailed the library staff, whom acknowledged the mistake but never corrected it. On another occasion it was stated as fact that a rifle submitted by me for the library was “shortened”; again not factual. There is a lot of good derived from this forum. However, sometimes things get called incorrectly with little recourse to set the record straight.
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Much of this “really, this is for insiders; those in the know and in the club” is discouraging for anyone considering becoming a serious collector. And maybe that’s the goal.
The above posts have no direct relevance to my comments. My point is that some collectors understandably want to have a strong market for originals and, at the same time, make statements that suggest that newbies need not participate. I don’t think that’s a strong marketing approach, but I have no experience marketing in this hobby.
Live long and prosper!
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I totally agree with you also Rich.
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This thread is devolving into misery
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I agree with you too Rob. See, I agree with everyone ;D