AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Ezra on May 25, 2021, 01:01:18 AM
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Hey guys,
Mr. Don Richards (our own moleeyes36) has provided me a website to purchase black powder online. Such a convenience! For the past 20 years or so, the only brand of powder I’ve ever used has been GOEX which I have always bought at our Pacific Primitive Rendezvous by the single pound, very expensive and not always available. While I cannot say I’ve ever had an issue with GOEX, I was hoping to get some insight on some of the different brands, none of which I am familiar with. With my only frame of reference being GOEX, which I am very familiar, I would very much appreciate your opinions on the following brands of black powder as compared to GOEX. I always shoot live ammunition, no blank reenactment shooting. I strive for, but rarely achieve accuracy… 8)
Swiss black powder
Schuetzen black powder
Old Eynsford black powder
Skirmish black powder
Much appreciated,
Ez
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I have some Old Enysford 3F and I find it shoots about identically to GOEX 3F. I have not chronographed it, though & only used it in the .36.
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I have access to all the black powders and have tried them all and still use Goex.
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Mad Monk (Bill Knight) can provide you with many pages of reading on chemistry and making of BP's and the companies that produce them, past and present. His experience is extensive.
But it's about the chemistry and performance from the lab perspective, rather than field guide to various powders.
Personally I'm phasing out Goex in favor of Euro-powders because I don't care to support the company that still lies to the public about the corrosive nature of P-dex (Hodgdon). It has nothing at all to do with the performance of Goex.
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I only use Goex 3F tried others but now that's all I use. "Muskrat Mike" will be at the PPR this year. I will be one of the first-aid people. Look me up.
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Interesting thread. I have always used GOEX, but thought of advantages or dos advantages of using other powders. Shot 2f in my 20 ga fowler for years, but recently switched to 3fg. Sorry, if my comments are out of place here. Jerry
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"Muskrat Mike" will be at the PPR this year. I will be one of the first-aid people. Look me up.
I shall to, just ask around for “Fishkiller”.
Ez
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Goex has, for a long time, been the powder brand all the others were compared with; kind of like the 30/06. Goex is a very good "middle of the road" powder and there are powders considered some better and powders considered not as good. Swiss and Goex OE are usually considered to be on the "better" end of the spectrum. I've used Dupont, Elephant, a couple of proprietary powders mfg. by Goex and dabbled in some Swiss 3F. The Swiss 3F did very well in my .32; for almost everything else I use Goex 3F. Cost is the most critical factor for me, with availability and recommendation a very close #2. I can't shoot well enough to see much accuracy difference in any of them except with specific calibers and loads. Graf's is mfg. currently by Goex as I understand it; and so is Jack's Battle Powder. I've used all of these with great satisfaction as my needs are easily satisfied. Never tried OE but it comes highly recommended. Try out each powder and see what your gun likes best.
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Some of the most consistent results I have obtained in terms of velocity and standard deviation I got with Elephant. An equal measure of Elephant produced lower velocities by about 10% compared to GOEX. I stuck with GOEX due to availability as I can't out shoot either one. In the event you find yourself at a shoot and for some completely un-explainable reason your powder horn runs dry, GOEX is likely what you might find from your new best friend. This is of course completely hypothetical.
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Swiss has a premium equal to the gain in velocity per g and is cleaner to boot. Works for me.
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Have you checked weighed charges, Bob, or just comparing stricken charges. My findings are that Swiss is considerably more dense, ie: higher specific gravity
than GOEX. Thus, a stricken measure of GOEx contains less powder than the same measure of Swiss powder - as much as 10% greater for Swiss & that was
comparing 1 1/2F Swiss to 3F GOEX. The GOEX, due to the smaller, tighter packing granuals, should have weighed more to start with, yet there was a 9 1/2%
greater weight of Swiss in the same "Stricken" measure. That alone will produce higher velocities.
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Ezra,
What's your favorite powder is like asking what's your favorite patch lube or your favorite beer. It's something for which people have personal preferences (some quite strong) for reasons that are sometimes quite esoteric. When you ask that question you get a number of people each saying what their favorite powder is until all the powders are named. What powder works for each of them is what they choose to use because of how the powder performs for them in their shooting or sometimes based merely on price. I can only suggest that you buy a can of the different powders and try them out for yourself in your own shooting. You can't determine which powder is best for you unless you've tried it out for yourself. If you can't find a particular powder locally, you can probably find a fellow shooter that uses it and would be willing to sell or trade you a can to try. When you decide which one works best for you in your shooting, then buy it in quantity on-line and get the better price.
I've opined enough; it's five o'clock and time for a wee nip of Kentucky Sunshine.
Don Richards
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Well said Don. ;)
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Ezra,
What's your favorite powder is like asking what's your favorite patch lube or your favorite beer. It's something for which people have personal preferences (some quite strong) for reasons that are sometimes quite esoteric. When you ask that question you get a number of people each saying what their favorite powder is until all the powders are named. What powder works for each of them is what they choose to use because of how the powder performs for them in their shooting or sometimes based merely on price. I can only suggest that you buy a can of the different powders and try them out for yourself in your own shooting. You can't determine which powder is best for you unless you've tried it out for yourself. If you can't find a particular powder locally, you can probably find a fellow shooter that uses it and would be willing to sell or trade you a can to try. When you decide which one works best for you in your shooting, then buy it in quantity on-line and get the better price.
I've opined enough; it's five o'clock and time for a wee nip of Kentucky Sunshine.
Don Richards
Thank you Don, I agree 100% with your statement. There is however encyclopedic knowledge on this forum and I wanted to exercise that. So many guys, so much knowledge, some of it esoteric and almost always based on personal experience. I understand that I need to try each one to compare and contrast, and I shall. Oh, and enjoy that Kentucky “sunshine”. 8)
Ez
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I am presently using Old Eynsford and am well pleased with it. How much better than regular Goex? If I were a decent shot I could perhaps say.
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I agree with Black Jack, in that in order to show a superiority of one over the other, much testing under controlled conditions would have to be completed, and if it was a close result, the tests would have to be repeated more than once. If there was a glaring difference, it would of course be observable earlier.
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I have used Goex and Swiss. I haven't really noticed a difference between the two but I have also not done any sort of studying or chronographing of each powder side by side. Goex is generally cheaper than Swiss, sometimes by a significant amount.
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In the early 2000's I had a Pedersoli Blue Ridge flintlock in 50 caliber. I used 80 gr. of 3f and a .490 ball patched with greased pillow ticking. I chronographed 80 grains of 3f Goex against the same charge of 3f Swiss. I don't remember the exact numbers but the Goex chronographed 1700 and some FPS and the same charge of Swiss chronographed 1900 and some fps. I still use Goex in my guns although I do have Swiss in my magazine for that special gun that needs it that hasn't came along yet. Swiss definitely burns cleaner for sure and looks shinier and more consistent in the granules.
Bob
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I have always shot GOEX because it was available locally. When I started ordering powder I gave SWISS a try. For me the SWISS gave better accuracy and more velocity. Will continue to buy SWISS. Just my two cents.
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Over the years I have shot Goex, Swiss, Elephant, Wano, Schutzen, and Old Enysford. Elephant was very dirty, and shot with lower velocity than any of the others. Swiss & Old Enysford seem to be "hotter", and clean up somewhat easier though more expensive. Wano, Goex & Schutzen seem to be on par with each other in regards to velocity and clean up. Now a days I only shoot Goex, as I seem to have plenty of that on hand.
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YES!!!! Use it!!!! Not some phony balony replica stuff!!!!!!!! If your not shooting in international competition, you probably won’t notice the difference.
Hungry Horse
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FWIW, I've never shot with a powder that was "bad". A good friend uses Swiss almost exclusively and was kind enough to give me a can of 3F. I've chronographed Elephant and Goex a few times and they do differ in velocity; but it takes a better shot than I am to tell any significant difference in accuracy. Then again, Elephant especially, was said to have quality control issues. The Swiss was impressive in the .32 however, and I may end up chronographing it.
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Early in my life, I was a sailor....someone asked me one time what I thought the difference was between a "good" bottle of wine and a "bad" bottle. After a brief pause for contemplation I told him that, as a sailor, that was an easy question.....a "good" bottle is full and a "bad" bottle is empty !
Having never been a competitive shooter, I think the same thing about powder...a good can is full and a bad can is empty. Not a very sophisticated answer, but if it makes my rifle or pistol go BANG, I'm happy with it. ;)
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i have a lot of goex and goex Old eynsford. and a few pounds of swiss. i am a goex man. i have a 54 cal. that eats 2f goex Old eynsford like candy. my 40 gets regular 3f goex and my 62 cal. always got regular goex. i do not like the hard ring that develops 2in up from where the ball seats caused by swiss after about 5 shots,,,,,,,,,,,,
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i have a lot of goex and goex Old eynsford. and a few pounds of swiss. i am a goex man. i have a 54 cal. that eats 2f goex Old eynsford like candy. my 40 gets regular 3f goex and my 62 cal. always got regular goex. i do not like the hard ring that develops 2in up from where the ball seats caused by swiss after about 5 shots,,,,,,,,,,,,
You are right about the Swiss ring. An awfully lot of lubes that will pass muster with Goex are unusable with Swiss.
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Hmmm - Interesting - I tried 1 1/2F Swiss in my .69 for about 10 shots and found it no different than GOEX, however I was only shooting 85gr. of it.
No rings, fouling or otherwise, were to be found.
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I've used all powders mentioned here except Old Eynesford. I agree that Swiss is a somewhat more premium powder, but I use regular Goex. Works for me and have taken a lot of game with it over the years.
It feels good buying American!
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This thread has sort of "lapsed" but in shooting the Swiss 3F in the .32 I found no more or worse fouling than with any other powder.
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I have also shot a lot of standard Goex, Goex Olde Eynsford and Swiss. I have developed loads for all of my small bores using all three. I keep a few pounds of Standard Goex and Swiss on hand but shoot Olde Eynsford almost exclusively now as it burns a little hotter than Standard Goex but is much cheaper than Swiss.
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I have also shot a lot of standard Goex, Goex Olde Eynsford and Swiss. I have developed loads for all of my small bores using all three. I keep a few pounds of Standard Goex and Swiss on hand but shoot Olde Eynsford almost exclusively now as it burns a little hotter than Standard Goex but is much cheaper than Swiss.
That’s exactly what I’ve found.
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Here is a little heresy on Sunday morning. I gave my nephew a .45 cal Hawken I built. It was the first Hawken I had built from a plank. I had built it around 2000. I sent it to him in 2009. I had a to come to Florida. So I decided I would bring him some powder and caps. Well though I had packed the powder and caps in a small box. I managed in my senility not to put it in the truck.
I was determined to get him shooting so I went about looking for powder. I had limited time so I had to settle on 3f Hogdon Triple Seven. It had been 30 years since I had tried any BP substitute.
Well I thought this would be better than nothing. I wasn't going to go about it blind. I got on a forum of folks that actually swear by this stuff. Long story short I reduced the 50 grain load by 15 %, which would be about 40 grains.
We went to the range and put up a 25 yard slow fire pistol target. My nephew was able to get about 15 shots in the black, with the majority in the 10 ring. We were using a .440 ball with .018 pillow ticking and spit. I had him shooting standing, unsupported. After that we moved the target out to 50 yards, and he managed to keep most of his shots in the black.
All in all he shot about 25 shots. Never had to wipe between shots and the gun loaded as easy on the last load as it did on the first. He did have to use a short starter to load the rifle. As the ball & patch combo are tight the way i like it.
Went to the house I showed him how to clean it using cold water and it cleaned up quickly. used alcohol to dissipate the water followed by WD40, and followed by Hoppe's premier gun oil.
We did not have time to see how it shot from the bench, but seeing the groups he was getting standing I would say that it would be comparable to what I used to get with Goex 3f off of crossticks.
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Ive shot Goex, Wano,Elephant,Diamondback, and Schutzen, and I found all to be dirty being its made from charcoal. I found all of it to go bang. I had to clean the gun after shooting no matter the brand shot. I was buying the elephant for 4 dollars a pound back in the 80s and early 90s an was very happy with it cause it went bang an hit the target an put down the game therefor it was good powder. I have some diamondback which is elephant in cognito an it goes bang an puts the ball where I want it being all my flintlock shooting is close range. At the end of the day it washes right out same as goex which is lots higher. Someone who is a target shooter where the smallest groups get the marbles may be able to tell the difference but under short range offhand shooting I doubt that any difference can be told
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Hi Ezra,
Swiss 3f and 2f hands down my choices. I got to test the differences between Swiss and Goex powder of the same granulation firing my Ferguson rifle, which has a fixed volume powder chamber. Also, being a breechloader, I do not swab the barrel until I am done shooting. Swiss is hotter, more powerful, and cleaner, and made a big difference in performance of the Ferguson.
dave
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Thusly, much depends on what your requirements are as to which powder is most beneficial to you as a shooter or hunter.
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I've shot a ton of Swiss when the price was more reasonable. No doubt it has more power than Goex but it also has a much sharper recoil if that bothers you. I never found it to be any cleaner to clean up. Black powder is dirty no matter what brand.
I found OE to be cleaner than Swiss and almost the same power. A more friendly price too.
I'm old now and like the soft recoil of Goex 2F and it kills the game just as dead. The price is easier to take too. The boom is more pleasant too. Swiss sounded more like a crack like the subs.
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A stricken measure of 2F GOEX, 2F OE and 2F Swiss will likely contain different weights.
I'm not positive about OE but Swiss is heavier per volume than GOEX - ie: GOEX throws a lighter
weight in a measure, than does Swiss.
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That's true just like Pyrodex is much lighter than Goex but we still compare measure to measure.
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I like Swiss. And it's cheaper by the 5 lb sack....
(https://i.ibb.co/jfvrFw6/IMG-1049.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c3crd8g)
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How much was the sack?
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Finally got the photo of the .32 using 3F Swiss. Yes, it was a bit less than 25 yards but I
couldn't move the heavy target frame. My .32 is persnickety with most loads (unusual) and I only got to use the Swiss for this one group. Goex 3F in this rifle was, as in the past, somewhat uninspiring. So before I left the range I fired these 10 or 12 shots - didn't keep good count - to compare with the Goex targets. The charge was 20 grns of 3F Swiss, .311" ball and my usual canvas patch; lube was Hoppes.
My squirrel guns are normally sighted in at 25 to 30 yds; and as long as the accuracy is really good at this range I'm satisfied. Given these results I would expect this load to qualify at that modestly extended distance. I'm not even sure I've fired the .32 farther than 30 yards and I've had it for 5 or 6 years. I used a 20 grn measure so the actual weight of the charge was a bit more than the same volume Goex. More load testing is planned this summer.
(https://i.ibb.co/Jd6ZBky/DSC00492.jpg)
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Where are you getting it by the 5lb sack Bob? Like the coffee cup to.
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Where are you getting it by the 5lb sack Bob? Like the coffee cup to.
I got that sack at Friendship. ;)
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I'm new here but have been making smoke since the early 70s. My first can of black was bought from a local gun shop, and the can was a Coco can of who knows what. Heck back then I didn't even know there was different grain sizes. I used it to test the the first ML I built, a 45 H&A underhammer, I got my deer that first year. Bottom line is if you can get any brand to shoot use it. I learned a lot in the next few years and I basically only hunted except a trip to the range before deer season. At 74 I have to use a bench rest but the target is from 1973 as I always kept a target so I remember what worked in each rifle. Notice the powder brand
(https://i.ibb.co/Wtw5w6x/IMG-0026.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VmZ9Ztj)
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What did the 5 pounds cost you Bob?
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Swiss fffg is good stuff for a percussion revolver, and the ffffg is good pan powder for the rocklock. While its true that Swiss is stronger than the others, it also puts heat in the barrel more quickly, so causes the bore to dry more quickly and makes barrel mirage more quickly. My preference in roundball guns remains Goex fffg whether it be .45, .50, .54, .58, or .62.