AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Antique Accoutrements => Topic started by: Shreckmeister on June 28, 2021, 08:58:20 PM

Title: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: Shreckmeister on June 28, 2021, 08:58:20 PM
I thought Iíd share some photos of an interesting bag. It appears that the arrowheads were put on the bag when the bag was made due to the wear and coloration. the cap Badge was added much later. Thought it was a cool piece.  I liked the old measure as well.


(https://i.ibb.co/zbrCgwq/EAF75-C18-78-BE-4664-8731-0-DBE80-D6-FFD7.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gw3Q8Ck)

(https://i.ibb.co/jLXBsW6/ED10-D704-BB25-43-F5-82-C2-38862208-A759.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YtsYwyR)

Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on June 28, 2021, 09:05:27 PM
That's an interesting bag for sure.  A point of interest, if I may...those are not arrow points.  At the least they are atlatl points, and at best, lance points.  Arrow points are tiny.
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: mr. no gold on June 28, 2021, 10:10:03 PM
And they could just as easily be knife blades. The larger biface appears to have considerable age given the patination on the surface. Nice material! Glad that you found it. And thank you for letting us see it. I agree that the measure is a dandy and likely Worth the price of admission alone.
Dick
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: Shreckmeister on June 29, 2021, 03:06:32 AM
That's an interesting bag for sure.  A point of interest, if I may...those are not arrow points.  At the least they are atlatl points, and at best, lance points.  Arrow points are tiny.
   I apologize for using the generic term. What material do you think the black point is made of?
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: mr. no gold on June 29, 2021, 07:46:56 AM
Just conjecture here, but it looks like Ohio black chert. That state was a treasure trove of materials useful to the American Indians. From high quality chalcedony, cherts of all colors to possibly even silver. The Adena and Hopewell made great use of all of these and even went so far as to import quartz in crystalline form out of Arkansas, to obsidian from Obsidian Mountain in Wyoming.
Also, the Folsom point is the quintessential atlatl point and they are quite small, as these things go. The Clovis people made somewhat larger points that are considered to have been used with the spear thrower, and there is evidence for that use in the fossil record. Most large blades however seem to have been knives. Not as romantic as we might like, but a heavy point on a heavy spear doesn't travel as far and may not have the penetration that a smaller point has
on impact.
Dick
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: Shreckmeister on June 29, 2021, 03:09:24 PM
Thanks Dick. The cap badge is bothering me. Itís part of its history but...should it stay?
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on June 30, 2021, 07:43:48 PM
The black point has very greasy looking flake scars which says to me that it is very fine grained, and possibly heat treated flint/chert.  Being black, it resembles very fine grained basalt which is the favoured projectile point material from around here.  But I concede to Dick's assessment and recognize that Ohio is rich in perfect raw material for this kind of work.  In any case, having these two relics attached as they are to a relic of their own, is remarkable.  Unique, I'd say.  there's nothing new under the sun, it's said.  I often attach an obsidian point to my leather arrow quivers, and carry a couple of prepared arrow shafts with my arrows when I'm hunting, in case I ever run into a situation where I have to provide for myself...so far so good.
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: Shreckmeister on June 30, 2021, 08:10:28 PM
So....the question that comes to my mind is...who carried it?  Native or Settler.  Anything lead one way or another.
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: T.C.Albert on June 30, 2021, 08:40:13 PM
Settler. They likely plowed up the points with a mule.
Just a guess. The points are ancient. Literally. Itís farmers
That usually turn them up in the fields.
TCA
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: jbigley on July 02, 2021, 03:38:24 AM
The cap device *looks* like the ones worn by army officers in WW2. --JB
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: Shreckmeister on July 03, 2021, 02:46:17 PM
The cap device *looks* like the ones worn by army officers in WW2. --JB
  I believe it is with wreath removed.
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: Shreckmeister on July 05, 2021, 12:16:53 AM
I was told the leather is Beavertail?
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: Dan Herda on July 19, 2021, 08:16:34 AM
Isnít that the WW2 Army Air Corps , less a cluster of stars above the eagles head? Officers cap badge?
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: Shreckmeister on July 19, 2021, 02:07:54 PM
Isnít that the WW2 Army Air Corps , less a cluster of stars above the eagles head? Officers cap badge?
   Yes it is
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: Sequatchie Rifle on July 21, 2021, 02:42:22 AM
Itís a standard pre-WWI Officers Cap device.
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: Shreckmeister on July 21, 2021, 08:30:10 PM
Itís a standard pre-WWI Officers Cap device.

   The only eagle I could find that looked like the one on the bag was the WWII cap device with the wreath removed. 
I spent alot of time looking.  Where can I see one of the pre WWI you've described?  Thank you.  I wondered why someone
would have embellished this pouch after 1940.  The man I bought it from who is a very well known in collecting circles said
he thought it was 1840.  I cannot find one where all the details are the same even with a wreath.
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: Clark Badgett on July 22, 2021, 01:30:18 AM
That insignia could literally be anywhere from 1900ish-current, depending on size. It does have the cluster of stars removed.
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: mr. no gold on July 22, 2021, 09:10:34 AM
Just remembered, but years ago I bought a country 'crudie cutie' powder horn which had an equally crude powder measure tied on with string and a very fine Indian chert stemmed knife blade. The over all length of the blade was about four inches. Now with your find Rob, I am wondering if there is some odd significance/connection between the two. Just can't figure what it might be. An ancient hunting talisman?
Dick
Title: Re: Possibles bag and accoutrements
Post by: Shreckmeister on July 22, 2021, 03:03:15 PM
Iíd certainly love to know the story behind this ornamentation Dick. Bringing hunting luck is a probability in my mind.