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General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Bsharp on July 01, 2021, 08:04:32 PM

Title: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on July 01, 2021, 08:04:32 PM
For best accuracy, the bore likes to be clean.

Dirty barrel, the second or third shot will start to fly.

First shot clean bore, 4""s left.

Moved out to 50 yds. Used a front sight Hood!

With a light swabbing, the next shot, there is a 4 shot group at 1.1/2"s of first shots.

The second shot starts to move around.

Hard lead .610 ball and a .020 patch with Hoppe's, 125FF Goex.

A different lube may be completely different, but anyway, the barrel will shoot hard lead.

Rice .62, 104 twist, 32"

Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Hungry Horse on July 01, 2021, 08:50:16 PM
 My question is why use hard lead? I would think soft lead would be more accurate.

  Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Badenpowell on July 01, 2021, 09:13:44 PM
And I was just thinking what a neat way to use up range scrap ...
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on July 01, 2021, 10:00:37 PM
And I was just thinking what a neat way to use up range scrap ...

I have 400 pounds of reclaimed range lead! :)
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Hungry Horse on July 02, 2021, 02:28:05 AM
 Seems like that hard lead will put a bunch of unnecessary wear and tear on a Forsyth rifled barrel. After all one of the reasons these barrels aren’t more popular is because of the narrow lands, they wear out faster.

  Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on July 02, 2021, 03:12:38 AM
A .610 ball with a .020 patch, there is no wear on the rifling from the ball.

Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Hungry Horse on July 02, 2021, 03:35:41 AM
 Every time a shot is fire out of a rifle barrel there is wear. 125 grains of 2F is going to accentuate that wear. With hard lead there is going to be no give, which will make your patch the abrasive. Patch lubes help, but don’t eliminate the abrasion.

  Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on July 02, 2021, 04:43:27 AM
Good thing that I have back-up barrels.

I will look for wear as I shoot.

Any thoughts on how paper patched round balls will wear on the bore?

I am going to make up some Tapered Paper Cartridges and shoot some of the hard lead, to see how it groups.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Badenpowell on July 02, 2021, 03:06:28 PM
Just off the top of my noggin, I would think paper would be much more abrasive than, say, a linen patch.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on July 03, 2021, 01:05:13 AM
The paper cartridge is just for back-up shots. Not the main load.

With the paper cartridge you can easily reload in 8 seconds.

The most important part is getting the 'fit'.

Just a snug snap with the thumb, pushing the cartridge in.

Then check point of impact.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on July 04, 2021, 12:15:18 AM
3 shots at 50yds. 125FF, .610 Hard Lead, .022 patch.

1.1/8"

Mild load and patches look great.

(https://up.picr.de/41550358wc.jpg)

edit:

Going to try 100FF next, see how that load groups.

Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Badenpowell on July 04, 2021, 04:07:22 PM
Boy, not a thing wrong with that group. Just out of curiosity, do you know the actual hardness of the lead you are using to cast with? A post over on castboolits suggests that range scrap often falls in the 9-12 range on the Brinnell scale, but can of course be very inconsistent. I have not tested mine.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on July 04, 2021, 04:15:02 PM
This is scrap range lead of unknown harness. [should be mostly hard birdshot]
My thumb nail will not scratch it.
I need to buy a set of pencils for testing.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Hungry Horse on July 04, 2021, 07:09:39 PM
 Or you could swap it to a cartridge shooter for soft lead.

   Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on July 04, 2021, 08:14:49 PM
Tried 100FF and had two touching and two fliers!

The 104 twist doesn't seem to be stabilizing the ball.

HH, I like your idea!
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: hanshi on July 06, 2021, 12:36:12 AM
The hardest lead is exponentially softer than barrel steel.  And BP powder blast is the same in every bore.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it....lessin of course I git proved rong.  ::)
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on July 06, 2021, 03:18:34 AM
This is scrap range lead of unknown harness. [should be mostly hard birdshot]
My thumb nail will not scratch it.
I need to buy a set of pencils for testing.
I was mistaken about the lead, it is from the indoor range.
22 bullets and pistol lead.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Dobyns on July 06, 2021, 03:19:12 PM
It doesn't matter if its indoor or outdoor lead, if you can't scratch it with a thumbnail, its too hard.  According to my thumbnail, 15bhn is about as hard as I can scratch. 

I've shot "hardened lead" only because I had a quantity of cable sheathing that obviously had other stuff in it.  As it changed from solid to liquid, the "other than lead" would float to the top, and I would skim that off.  I had it analyzed and there was tin, antimony, and copper in it.  The residuals that I cast roundballs from shows 9-10 bhn on my tester.  Its not as soft as I would like, but works OK even in the 6 groove Colerain barrel with its wide lands.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: yulzari on July 11, 2021, 01:44:22 AM
As Forsyth himself noted; he used both hard and soft lead balls for different game. His peers equally so. Samuel Baker used a 10:1 lead/mercury to both harden and increase the weight.

Given that it is the patch which should be engaging the rifling and not the ball, hard lead should not be an issue.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Daryl on July 15, 2021, 03:12:25 AM
Seems like that hard lead will put a bunch of unnecessary wear and tear on a Forsyth rifled barrel. After all one of the reasons these barrels aren’t more popular is because of the narrow lands, they wear out faster.

  Hungry Horse

I think perhaps these barrels aren't popular (yet) is because most guys don't hunt large game or at ranges that requires heavier loads.
The slow rate of twist normal for true Forsyth-type rifling, usually shoot best with more powder than shooters today are willing to use.
The so-called Forsyth rifling of today is too deep in my opinion to truly benefit from the narrow lands and wide grooves & slow twist.
With a slow twist, the rifling need not be deeper than about .006" which will allow a substantial patch to take the 'heat' so to speak, coupled
with an easy loading ball 1 bore size smaller, maybe 2 bore sizes smaller in the 20 bore.
As for them being not as long lived as any other rate of twist, I don't believe that for a second. Who here has worn out a barrel? I mean really
worn out the barrel, not just shot one slick, as our late friend Roger Fisher did, with 45,000 shots in a Don Getz bl. Roger roughed the barrel a bit
and it was back to winning again.
I would think a true .620" with Forsyth rifling, might shoot well with a .595" (22bore) ball & a .024" canvas or 10 ounce denim at .021". That is, if the
rifling is .008" or shallower. It might even work with a barrier between powder and patched ball, with an 8 ounce denim patch.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: R.J.Bruce on July 15, 2021, 01:00:58 PM
Anyone here shot a .62 caliber Forsyth rifled barrel with a 1:72" twist extensively? Curious as to the amount of the powder charge necessary for the faster twist? I know from reading here that the slower 1:95" & 1:104" twist Forsyth barrels require some pretty hefty powder charges in order to achieve decent accuracy.

Been considering a 25"-27" long, Rice, .62 caliber, Forsyth rifle barrel, Jaeger-style, swamped octagon, but without the parallel waist. Just a straight taper to the waist where the barrel starts to flare out to the muzzle. Colerain calls it a T.W. Pistor profile. With a 1:72" twist. 1.312" breech diameter, 0.890" waist diameter, and a 1.050" muzzle diameter.

Would kinda like to be able to keep powder charges under 150 grains, and to be able to utilize wheel weight metal for the balls. In addition to pure lead.

Probably utilize an English Sporting Rifle stock design to minimize the recoil. Not sure what flintlock I like more, Chris Laubach's German flintlock; or Jim Kibler's round-faced English flintlock.

Since this will be a contemporary hunting rifle sporting a recoil pad for my osteoarthritis, I'm inclined to go with the 1740's German flintlock. I just like its looks more. Single trigger. Iron-mounted, rust blued, and then rubbed back to grey.

3/8" diameter ramrod pipes, and a 3/8" hickory ramrod with 10-32 brass tips on both ends so I can utilize one of Dave Crissalli's, Gunner's Mate 10-in-1 flintlock tools.

A Daryl Sapergia-style brass bead front sight coupled with a Lowell Haarer-style, tang-mounted, ghost ring rear sight. Haven't figured out what kind of rear sight to put on the barrel.

Sling swivels up front & in the rear. 2" wide sling.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Hungry Horse on July 15, 2021, 06:03:12 PM
 R.J. I think even a 1 in 72” twist is going to require a hundred grains of 2F. That being said, a barrel that short is likely to be too short to allow that size charge to burn completely. I think you are going to have to consider either a smaller caliber, or a faster twist, or a longer barrel, to get the optimum performance.
 The slow twist is used to increase the long range accuracy, which isn’t usually a factor at hunting range. .62 caliber is a massive bullet for the average deer, and really is only needed on elk, moose, and dangerous game. JMO, good luck.

  Hungry Horse
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Daryl on July 15, 2021, 06:33:52 PM
RJ Bruce - sounds rather short to me, but whatever you want & it will work.
1 in 72" is the same twist rate of the various Zouave and some other military .58's.
The Enfield 3 band rifle had a 78" twist - a .577.

72" is really not that slow and not much slower than the common 66" twist.

Val Forget's .58 that he took to Africa had a fairly short barrel on it, 28", I think, maybe 26"? and he used 175gr. 3F in it, with a 675gr. slug, IIRC.
He also had a 24" modified Zouave by Navy Arms called the Buffalo Hunter (again, taxing my memory) and in that one he also used a slug and 150gr. 3F.

My 31" bl. gave fairly evenly increased velocities up to 200gr. of 2F, with patched round balls.

The larger the bore, the more powder can be consumed in the shorter barrels. Forsyth himself thought that 24" to 26" was all the barrel
needed (for dangerous game powder charges) for 16 through 8 bores and that the larger bored guns could be made shorter yet, as short
as 22".
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on July 15, 2021, 07:22:06 PM
With lead .620s in the 32" barrel, I am getting 1500 fps with 125FF, and 1800 fps with 200FF.

The 125FF has hunting accuracy at 50 yards, have not moved to 75 or 100 yet.

Hoping that 75 yds will be the farthest shot!
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Daryl on July 15, 2021, 08:59:54 PM
My .682" pure lead balls got 1,300 fps with 110gr., 1,550fps with 165gr. & 1,700fps with 200gr.
330gr. (a loading error) produced a mere 1,770fps. All with 2F GOEX.
31" bl. 66" twist.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: hanshi on July 16, 2021, 12:15:46 AM
The .54 I shoot has a 32" or 33" (not sure) barrel with .006" grooves and a 1-66" twist.  In shooting it with charges from 60 grns 3F to 110 grns 3F it does around an inch at 60 yards; but I can no longer do it.  Prb is more accurate in this rifle than any conical I've tried.  I still have about 18 lbs of hard lead and will only use it as a backup source.  In the past WW ball did about as well as soft lead in a couple of rifles and one smoothbore.

The .45 Bobby Hoyt barrel I recently had re-bored has bound bottom rifling with, as far as I can calculate, a 1-56" twist.  The round grooves are easily 3 times the width of the lands.  While I wouldn't call it "Forsyth" rifling I'm sure some would.  This barrel starts to come into its own at 70 grains 3F but more work is planned.



Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: R.J.Bruce on July 16, 2021, 12:40:52 AM
R.J. I think even a 1 in 72” twist is going to require a hundred grains of 2F. That being said, a barrel that short is likely to be too short to allow that size charge to burn completely. I think you are going to have to consider either a smaller caliber, or a faster twist, or a longer barrel, to get the optimum performance.
 The slow twist is used to increase the long range accuracy, which isn’t usually a factor at hunting range. .62 caliber is a massive bullet for the average deer, and really is only needed on elk, moose, and dangerous game. JMO, good luck.

  Hungry Horse

Hungry Horse

I wish Rice offered a .58 caliber barrel with Forsyth-style rifling.

OTOH, my old (1990) Getz, 42" long × .62 caliber × 1:48" twist swamped octagon barrel shot silver dollar size groups at 100 yards from the bench (& occasionally offhand), all day long using only 75 grains of fffg Goex black powder. I had to talk Getz into the 1:48" twist when I ordered it, as he wanted to rifle it with a slower twist. It had round bottom grooves, and a coned muzzle.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Daryl on July 16, 2021, 12:43:51 AM
IF the rifling is very shallow and much slower, then you could call it Forsyth-type rifling.
The "Forsyth" grooves are very shallow and wide. The ROT was commonly 1/4 turn in the length of the barrels (24" to 26") making for
96" to 104" ROT. That is Forsyth rifling as he dictated in his book, 1st printed in 1862.
Forsyth stated (remember he was talking about bores of 16 and larger but mostly 14 - 12 bore) that 1 turn in 8 feet up to 1 turn in 12feet
also gave good accuracy to 150yards & than instead of the accuracy being injured by using even heavier powder charges, the accuracy
was improved. Of course, this make total sense. With most modern barrels and the loads many people use, there is a deterioration of accuracy
with the addition of larger powder charges. I found in my 66" twist, with my loads, the accuracy at 100 meters with from 165gr. to 200gr. 2F was
 not changed.
Forsyth is also not talking about making 1" or 2" groups at 50 or 100yards as the longest shots at game came from shooting deer (Sambar I assume).
The dangerous game being elephant, buffalo and tigers were shot at spitting distance usually & did not require pin-point accuracy, but did require power.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: R.J.Bruce on July 16, 2021, 12:51:44 AM
I might just ultimately decide to just purchase a .62 caliber gain twist barrel from either Bobby Hoyt, or Colerain. Probably go with a Bobby Hoyt .62 caliber gain twist barrel mostly because of what Hanshi stated above vis-a- vis the 3:1 ratio of groove width to land width.

Scott at Colerain told me that there is almost no call for a .62 caliber gain twist barrel in any length, compared to all the other calibers.

On another note, I think I read recently that Colerain just started offering a gain twist for the. 36 caliber, which would be brand new for them.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on July 16, 2021, 02:31:38 AM
For a slow twist .58 with narrow rifling , I went with a Charles Burton, [Alexander Henry?] 1-90 twist.

Bore is .584 across the grooves .620".

(https://up.picr.de/41629520vs.jpg)

Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Daryl on July 16, 2021, 06:18:11 AM
They don't look .018" deep, but that's the math.
Sharp corners too.
Seems to me, Alex Henry rifling was not that deep, nor that slow a twist and was meant for conical bullets.
It will likely shoot, though, given some load development.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on July 16, 2021, 05:26:20 PM
.018 is corner to corner, not sure what across the flats is.

It takes heavy canvas not to blow a patch using .570 balls.

3 thru one hole and two higher for the first group with 115FF. 50 yds.[barrel pressure?] or homemade lube? or??



Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Daryl on July 16, 2021, 05:51:23 PM
BSharp - If you want to get an idea on barrel pressure, refer to the old Lyman Black Powder Handbook. Although these pressures and velocities are not what you
will get with today's powders, they do show trends quite well.
It should be noted, that given the same grade of powder used in multiple calibres, ie: 3F or 2F GO(using same grade) pressures were quite close in all calibres when
 the velocities were the same.
This means that .58, .54, .50, .45 or even a .36 produces quite similar pressure at the same velovity, meaning at a given velocity, the pressure in each calibre will be very similar.
Thus, for example, in my .45 using 2F and a snug combination with LHV Lube, 65gr. 2F GOEX produced an actual 1,740fps (give or take 10fps).  The pressure generated
will/would be similar to your .58 cal. barrel's loading producing the same velocity.
Larger bores are shown to produce very low pressures with loads that today's shooters think are excessively large.  The more recoil sensitive the shooter happens to be,
the more "excessive" those loads are declared to be, it seems.
Some styles of rifle handle recoil much better than others.  Hooked butt plates do not work well in the "heavier" loads.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on July 16, 2021, 07:05:39 PM
" Lyman Black Powder Handbook."

I have that great old book!

Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on August 06, 2021, 05:23:36 AM
My latest test with the Rice .62.

So far I have shot 2 shots at 3 targets , 3 times.

First shot is a .620 lead ball with a.015 patch, followed by a .610 hard ball with a  paper tapered cartridge.

Just want to see how a follow up shot will shoot with the patched ball.

I combined all three targets into one.

(https://up.picr.de/41771504ar.jpg)

1-1,2-1,3-1 are the patched ball

1-2,2-2 and 3-2 are the hard paper cart.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Daryl on August 12, 2021, 08:23:59 AM
I am not surprised at the accuracy of the paper ctg. 2nd shot.
In my own tests, the accuracy of my paper ctg.s (tight and marked by the lands)
was identical and to the same POI as TIGHTLY patched round balls.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on August 12, 2021, 06:22:02 PM
Daryl, I have enlarged the wraps and still haven't got that tight thumb fit that I like.

So for being a bit loose, accuracy is OK.

I need a .615 ball to try. The .610 is at two full wraps and still loose. [printer paper .0035"]

The 7 groove must make a difference in fit.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Daryl on August 12, 2021, 06:59:50 PM
Tighter will give better results, has to.
Mine were tight enough, I had to choke up on the rod (or use a short starter) to get them started, then down they went.
Same accuracy and same poi to 100metres, as tightly patched round balls.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on August 12, 2021, 08:27:20 PM
Why is it so hard to get folks to believe this is possible?
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Daryl on August 20, 2021, 02:39:22 AM
Beats me. Those who have tried it, I mean really tried good tight paper ctg loads in say, .58 cal. rifles & larger as well as snug paper ctg. loads
in smoothbores, are now adherents to this process.
The paper ctgs. used by both the US Military and British Military, used such undersized balls, that accuracy was non-existent. They believed in
large group volley fire to hit into a large target area of standing troops, not precise accuracy.
Bobinthewoods has shown us what a 20 bore smoothbore can do out at 50 yards, with snug paper ctg. loads.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Dphariss on September 14, 2021, 05:11:09 AM
This is three shots with my 16 bore rifle (.662" one ounce ball in pure lead). The "flier" is pure lead, then a ball cast from wheel weight alloy and the last shot was a "dry" paper cartridge. All at 50 yards rest. Rifle has a Nock Breech and make 1600 fps with 140 gr of FF Swiss. 29 3/4" with the breech, 8 shallow grooves, 80" twist. I don't think a twist slower than this is needed unless the bore is VERY large. This based on Daryl's 69 caliber rifle.
The pure lead myth comes from people using barrels with wide lands which require compressing a lot of lead when starting the ball. I have shot quite a bit of somewhat hard scrap lead from my 50 cal GM barrels with great results but if shooting at soft steel targets these will do significant damage and will cut steel chain hangers etc with HV loads. So I tend to shoot pure lead at matches.


(https://i.ibb.co/C0LwZpH/DSC03691-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9YPpLmr)


Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Daryl on October 24, 2021, 08:46:19 PM
Good post, Dan, thanks. :D
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Dphariss on October 27, 2021, 05:49:44 AM
Here are a couple of more photos of the rifle mentioned previous with the photo of the target. As stated its an 80" twist. .008" +- grooves with very narrow lands. It shoots WW alloy or pure lead the same. However, hard lead needs a little thinner patch to start as easily.
For hard lead one is really behooved to follow Forsythe's instructions for very narrow lands. I think the 80" twist is slow enough. Forsythe was wrong in thinking the slower twist would increase velocity at least IMO. It does aid in getting the heavier ball rotating without tearing the patch. I have a 62 cal 48" twist I am about cut into pistol barrels and I could take it out and see how much powder it takes to "strip the patch" before I "shorten" it.
Flintlock with Nock Patent breech. .078" vent.  Recessed breech Manton lock from The Rifle Shoppe castings. Velocity as previously stated. 140 gr of FF Swiss seems to be the point of diminishing returns. Increasing the charge resulted in lower velocity gains. And taking Forsythes trajectories and doing some computer ballistic work shows he was getting about this velocity from his shorter barreled percussion rifles using "Halls #2" powder. Which might be around 2-3 F by the European grading system.

Dan


(https://i.ibb.co/WsvQV9x/39-E0-C7-D2-5-C31-469-A-82-E7-8-D2587-F2-F563-1-105-c.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JCjN3LB)

(https://i.ibb.co/GxC782W/3297-BC3-A-2623-4764-B0-D7-A5894-D3-CF369-1-105-c.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0DYq6MC)
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on October 27, 2021, 06:34:42 AM
Dan, I like your rifle, can you tell me more about it?
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Daryl on October 27, 2021, 07:41:45 PM
Dan, that's an Ed Rayle barrel, isn't it?  1,700fps is a good speed. It took 200gr. 2F GOEX (1987stuff) to get that speed in my 31" .69.
Taylor's 16 bore Lang has a 48" twist, with 12 lands/grooves, seems to me. He shoots 85gr., a .650" ball and .020" patch which actually
cuts on the lands (sharp muzzle), but no burnouts with that load & decent square accuracy at 100 meters - 2 1/2" square for 5 shots.
As far as stripping, not sure that can happen with a tight loads, but thinner patches, of course, would acerbate that problem.  My 66" twist
in the .69, showed no stripping & good accuracy with 200gr. (1,700fps) The accidental 330gr. charge produced 1,770fps & lifted me up off the
'chunk' I was sitting on.
As to stripping, my .004" deep 48" twist rifling in the TC I had, got really good accuracy with 110gr. 2F, back in the 70's - no stripping, but I was using
.495" balls and .022" denim.
As to higher velocity with a smooth bored barrel compared to a rifled one, same calibre, our tests were inconclusive. We used a pair of .62's & the velocities
were pretty much identical. Seems to me, IIRC, the rifled tube was slightly faster, but so much would depend on ball size and "tightness of the load" in the bore.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Dphariss on December 08, 2021, 07:39:47 PM
Dan, that's an Ed Rayle barrel, isn't it?  1,700fps is a good speed. It took 200gr. 2F GOEX (1987stuff) to get that speed in my 31" .69.
Taylor's 16 bore Lang has a 48" twist, with 12 lands/grooves, seems to me. He shoots 85gr., a .650" ball and .020" patch which actually
cuts on the lands (sharp muzzle), but no burnouts with that load & decent square accuracy at 100 meters - 2 1/2" square for 5 shots.
As far as stripping, not sure that can happen with a tight loads, but thinner patches, of course, would acerbate that problem.  My 66" twist
in the .69, showed no stripping & good accuracy with 200gr. (1,700fps) The accidental 330gr. charge produced 1,770fps & lifted me up off the
'chunk' I was sitting on.
As to stripping, my .004" deep 48" twist rifling in the TC I had, got really good accuracy with 110gr. 2F, back in the 70's - no stripping, but I was using
.495" balls and .022" denim.
As to higher velocity with a smooth bored barrel compared to a rifled one, same calibre, our tests were inconclusive. We used a pair of .62's & the velocities
were pretty much identical. Seems to me, IIRC, the rifled tube was slightly faster, but so much would depend on ball size and "tightness of the load" in the bore.

A little late here. Not paying enough attention to the site.
It has barrel from a man in Missouri that no longer makes barrels.
It has 8 lands, shallow and shows a little patch abrasion at the lands but no burning or blowing. I did find some heavy linen canvas at https://www.fabrics-store.com/ that is pretty heavy after a washing and drying. Might work better if not too thick. Its almost too heavy for my 50 cal GM barrels with .495 ball. But it was perfect in a Douglas 54 I freshed, someone had let it pit from the breech up about 12" and its a Don King Hawken and I did not want to rebarrel it. The heavy linen and a .535 load normal and seems to shoot great, I have not slugged it to be sure how large it is now but I sure got tired of walking back and forth, brushing off chips and then pulling/pushing it back through again.

 More thoughts, question about the rifle answered etc. Since we are on the subject. Have not read everything in the thread so I might be repeating something some has posted. And answer some other questions.
104" is too slow IMO, even for a 69, based on your experience and mine. My late English style flintlock, its actually a 15 bore I guess, it shoots a 16 to the pound ball, has an 80" twist and will shoot 140 gr of FF Swiss great. I have shot it with lighter loads but not that much. Its hunting gun so I shoot the hunting load and honestly I have not shot it in perhaps 5+ years. 140 ff Swiss gives 1600 fps with a 30" barrel. It is shallow grooved narrow grooved and will shoot W-W alloy and pure lead to the same point at 50 yards. It has a 1 1/4" breech and a 1 1/8" muzzle. Shop made breech, shop made 303 stainless vent, shop made under rib, shop made sights and patchbox lock is from the Rifle Shop the the recessed breech Manton rifle lock, shop made mainspring, link and tumbler. I don't recall where the buttplate came from but think it might be TRS too since it had cast in engraving. The entry pipe, trigger, trigger bar and TG are from TOW. American grown English Walnut from Dunlap. Once I faced the frizzen it is an extremely reliable lock and ignition is as fast I have shot a few deer with it and intended to shoot a Gbear in AK with it but I had to rebarrel it because of accuracy issues and by the time I got that done Dad, in his 80s, was getting too old to be a good backup so that never happened. Could not afford a guided hunt.
I will say this. The Nock breech is very consistent in ignition will not reliably work with a dirty burning powder that creates flakes of fouling in the bore. If one of these falls into the breech and blocks the passage to the antichamber the vent will have to be primed to get the rifle to fire. Never had a problem with Swiss powder. But I did try the same charge of some Schuetzen powder I had a can of  and it gave flakes and "problems". I had an "experience" back when I wore green uniforms that causes neck pain even though the x-rays are now "normal". This video shows one of the reasons i don't shoot this rifle anymore.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnUxXub5vPU
Back to twists.
IMO a great many modern ML barrels are twisted too slow. I think a 48" twist is ideal to at least 54 caliber. Note John Baird's Hawken Rifles.." pg 42-43. But people read Forsythe and went a little wild with both powder charges and twist rates especially in calibers under 65 or so IMO. This .67 FL with a Nock patent breech looses efficiency at charges over 140 gr of FF Swiss. Powder increases no longer give meaningful increases in velocity. The twist/stripping patches thing is that the larger balls have lot of rotational inertia due to weight and diameter. When the powder burns the initial acceleration is pretty extreme even compared to grey powder guns and the ball wants to not spin up so a slower lets the ball rotate a little slower. Someone with the inclination can calculate the RPM fora projectile at a given twist and velocity. The RB needs little to be fairly stabilized. But sometimes even a 70-72" 54 can take more powder than I like to use to shoot well. But this is almost a barrel by barrel thing.
Forsythe used 137 gr of "Halls #2" powder (which I think, given the European grading system may have been about like FFF) to give about 1600 fps from a short barreled percussion rifle. I did some work using his trajectory tables and a ballistic program and they gave about 1600 fps. He stated his 69 caliber (14 bore) rifle with a hardened 15 gauge ball would pass through an Indian Elephants head from side to side. I would point out that it seems that the smaller the bore the more powder, in relation to ball weight, needed to get to a velocity for  flat trajectory giving 120 yard "point blank" for deer sized game. But the larger balls, 62 cal and up,have a little better BC and will give a decent trajectory at 200 fps less velocity than a 50-54 will. These need about 1/2 ball weight of powder while my the .67  with a ball twice the weight of a .530 uses 1/3 ball weight.
Velocity, smooth vs rifled. I do not think that the smooth bore with "less friction" will give higher velocity than a rifled bore with "more friction".  Actually a little more friction may make the powder more efficient and give a little better velocity. So I think that Forsythe was a little off here, but many firearms ballistics ideas of the 19th c were. There are so many factors at play is such things that getting a REAL answer to this is very difficult if not impossible.
I was going to do some shooting today by the weather forecast was right. Wind in the 30s, gusting to around 50 mph.


Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: smylee grouch on December 09, 2021, 12:45:33 AM
Dan P. thanks for the info in your last post. This is encouraging to me as I was hoping my current build ( 66 cal 1-80 something twist ) would shoot well with from 3&1/2 dram to five dram loads of Swiss !&1/2 F   Now I just have to get it finished. 1/3 ball weight of my .648 ball should be right at 5dram.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Bsharp on December 09, 2021, 05:44:38 PM
After shooting the .69 in 90 twist, I think the next one will be an 80 twist. In an English style rifle, maybe German. 30-32" barrel. 1.1/4 flared.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Daryl on December 09, 2021, 07:35:41 PM
After talking with Dan on this subject, I've come to the conclusion that shallow, wide grooves and 80" to 85" is about as slow as you'd want to go.
Afterall, just look at the charges my .69 "likes".  I'm just glad it shoots well at 100 meters and past with our modern GOEX with as little as 140gr. 2F.
Back in '86, it needed 165gr. to shoot well and did that right up to 200gr. where it produced 1,700fps.
A twist rate at Forsyth's 102-106" approx. twist, could require a LOT more powder than I'd be willing to shoot, especially at my current age and fitness.
I'm just glad it shoots "reasonably" well out to 50yards or so, with as little as 85gr.  If I was hunting deer out of a tree stand that's about all the powder
I would use.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Badenpowell on December 09, 2021, 07:49:38 PM
Dan, that Youtube showing the recoil from your flintlock surprised me. Would not have thought it would be so heavy, but my only experience with "heavy" charges is shooting a Fosbury-style "cottonspool" from an NEI mold out of a Pedersoli Kodiak .72 with 150 grains FFg Goex. It was manageable, but only because of the weight of those two heavy barrels.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Daryl on December 10, 2021, 10:07:21 PM
That's a decent charge. I think perhaps I hold the gun a bit differently than Dan.
This is 140gr. 2F GOEX with a 482gr. ball in my .69 - the ALR 200yard postal match.
The last picture was taken at almost full recoil. The rifle did continue to rise another inch or two.

(https://i.ibb.co/nDx4xsp/aiming.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qRThTM6)

(https://i.ibb.co/9csPPS5/aiming-n-shooting-140gr.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PFwkk0H)
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Dphariss on December 21, 2021, 08:07:11 PM
Recoil and BP. In brass suppository guns using BP, something I have extensive experience with, BP will produce about 20% more recoil for a given bullet weight and velocity than will modern grey powder. This can be documented by shooting or by reading the page in Cartridges of The World  containing the old Winchester catalog chart with velocity and recoil of  Winchester  cartridges with most BP cartridges being shown with both BP and grey powder loads.
Yeah its about brass suppository stuff but thats where the data is. Can’t be helped.
Thus with almost 2500 ft lbs of energy my big game FL rifle will make more recoil than will a firearm of the same ME using grey powder. So yes you get more recoil impulse with BP than with smokeless. Also note that the modern stuff will not upset a lead bullet to fit the bore as BP will.
It would be interesting to find out if a percussion rifle, which would in theory at least make more velocity with the same charge weight would produce a little less recoil at the same velocity. Since, with BP  percentage of the charge at the time of ignition becomes part of the projectile weight and even after the charge is burned there is significant amount to the charge that never burns left over solids from the combustion (think ash in a wood stove) that is ejected with the projectile.
Just for comparison my Don King FL Hawken makes 1764 ft lbs at the muzzle with 90-100 gr of FFF, depending on powder quality.
I might also point out that ME is not a valid measure of effectiveness on a game animal. Its really just a number.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Dphariss on December 21, 2021, 08:17:42 PM
That's a decent charge. I think perhaps I hold the gun a bit differently than Dan.
This is 140gr. 2F GOEX with a 482gr. ball in my .69 - the ALR 200yard postal match.
The last picture was taken at almost full recoil. The rifle did continue to rise another inch or two.

(https://i.ibb.co/nDx4xsp/aiming.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qRThTM6)

(https://i.ibb.co/9csPPS5/aiming-n-shooting-140gr.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PFwkk0H)

According to the bathroom scale the 16 bore weighs 9.7 pounds.
Maybe I am gripping the forend harder. Who knows?
IIRC with 5 drams of “Halls #2” powder Forsyth was getting about 1600 fps from my running his trajectories through a  computer some years back. I think he had a 26” barrel IIRC
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Daryl on December 21, 2021, 08:31:21 PM
I don't grip the rifle hard at all. Just a relaxed hold, pretty much.
Title: Re: Hard Lead and Forsyth rifling!
Post by: Dphariss on December 24, 2021, 05:02:45 AM
I don't grip the rifle hard at all. Just a relaxed hold, pretty much.
I tend to just let it sit there but I might hold the 16 bore a little tighter but I don't shoot it much these days.
Dan