AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: Scota4570 on August 16, 2021, 12:14:37 AM
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I stocked up with Goex in 2012. I have also recently tried Graff.
With all granulations, in all of my guns, with all of my lubes, I get a crud ring and progressive fouling build up. The ring gets larger and longer as I shoot. It is difficult to clean out, requiring a nylon brush and/or sopping wet patches. Even when swabbing between shots it builds up. The crud will eventually cause ignition problems.
In addition to the ring I get build up in the bore that makes loading difficult and accuracy drop off by about five shots.
I shoot in a warm dry climate. I have never had any other experience than described above since I started shooting MLs in the 1970s.
I have not found loose loads with thick wet patches, that load easily over the fouling, to shoot accuracy.
Am I alone in these observations?
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I would suspect its a lube problem. Powder rarely cause crud at the breech.
Hungry Horse
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Welcome to my world!
Humidity must play a part of it.
Have you tried Swiss powder?
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Tight fitting patch and ball, liquid lube.
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I shot in Arizona for several years, all year around. Used Windex to swab between shots and Hoppes #9+ for lube. Never had a problem. On trail walk type shoots, the hard ring would make loading more difficult if I did not swab. The residue at the bottom of the barrel is harder with zero humidity and high temps. It is safer to keep your barrel clean (or slippery) enough to seat your ball firmly on the powder charge.
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I have tried many wet lubes, moose milk, GI bore cleaner for chlorate primers, Leigh Valley, #9 for BP, Murphies oil soap, spit, Windex, I'm sure I forgot some. Wiping between shots does not stop it completely. I need to get the cleaning patches sloppy wet and that is bad for ignition.
I wish I could buy one can of Swiss to try. All my powder is a mail order deal.
I seem to remember read, Mad Monk maybe, that Goex was making junk during 2002 timeframe.
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I live in your neck of the woods and my .36 caliber rifle does the crud ring thing. It's the only rifle that does it. I use the same powder (3F GOEX) for all my rifles up to 54 caliber and 2F for anything over .54 caliber. The lube is the same for all rifles. I'm guessing for me it's a combination of caliber and weather.
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You might find the answer if you go back and read some of Bill Knight's ("Mad Monk" on the ALR Forums) writings from 2019 and 2020 in this forum category. Lots of different things about powder decomposition due to storage, crud rings caused by burn rate and temperature and other interesting things.
Even if that doesn't help you understand exactly what is going on with your particular situation, you will be entertained and gain a wealth of knowledge. Bill is a walking encyclopedia.
-Joe Stein
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I found in the south that Swiss leaves less fouling than Goex, but that the fouling was harder compared to Goex. This is just a sample of one person, so make of that what you will. The Swiss "crud ring" was hard enough to cause me to move away from that powder. I am wet lubing Mr Flintlock, with a tight patch/ball combo. The same with Hoppe's slippery BP Lube and Cleaner as patch lube. With Goex the crud ring is infrequently a problem under most weather situations. I did not find a significant change in accuracy between Swiss and Goex. Reducing the charge 10% when using Swiss approximates Goex velocities, but I still notice that Swiss charges step back on the shoulder faster.
Again, sample of one. God Bless, Marc
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Not to start a powder war, but I've tried various powders and lubes, but have always preferred Goex because the fouling was easier to deal with. I've been working with a .45 flintlock as of late, and it definitely prefers ffg over fffg Goex. I can shoot numerous shots without needing to wipe (mink oil or avocado oil), or all day with LVL/SVL/MF. Switching to Elephant, Diamondback, or Swiss requires wiping between shots. Loose ball & patch just makes things worse as it fouls more quickly.
In my .50 flintlock, the preferred load is 80gr Goex fffg, but I've found that if I duplex 15gr Goex fffg under 65gr Diamondback ffg, it works very similarly. I prefer to spend my time loading and shooting rather than extra cleaning.
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I do not wipe between shots or during shooting sessions and do get minor crud rings from time to time depending on the rifle. I use Goex as a rule with limited experience burning Swiss. I do not use any load I can't safely seat with the wood ramrod. The lube is TOW mink oil in the bush and Hoppes (mostly) at the range. So far the best way I've found for lessening the frequency of crud rings is a thick patch for a very snug load. It doesn't always eliminate them entirely but does noticeably reduce their frequency and size.
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Ever since about 1974, I've been using balls that are usually .005" smaller than the bore and .020" to .022" denim patches, with spit
or other "wet" lubes for target work, including LHV, Mr. Flintolock's Lube, WWWF+NFOil as well as Taylor's Water-Soluble-Oil 10:1 with tap water.
For hunting, I've used Neetsfoot Oil or Track's Mink Oil.
I've been shooting GOEX since it's invention/change from G/O (Georheart/Owen) powder as well as Curtis and Harvey & Scottish made Meteor. I
have never experienced a crud ring & only wipe the bore while I'm cleaning it after all the day's shooting is done.
When target shooting I use "wet" patches, not dripping wet, but close.
For hunting, my patches are saturated with either of the oils, Track's or Neets.
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i am in SC, our humidity is awful all summer. on my range i use dawn dish soap and water mix 50/50 in a spray bottle. i can shoot till the cows come home and never swab between shots, and accuracy is superb. clean up is fast and easy also,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Heat and humidity her in central VA has been awful for over a week and next week looks to be the same.
It's usually very bad in summer but really bad now! Forget using 4F priming, turns to black mud!
Dennis
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Wet, or humid weather won’t create this problem. Moisture is the cure, not the cause. Very dry weather, and excessive heat will occasionally make dry crust at the bottom of the bore. But burned black powder is hygroscopic, and almost immediately after burning, begins to absorb moisture from the air, softening the crud. Patch lubes, exotic oils, household cleaners, and who knows what else, often contain components that have a low flash point, allowing them to polymerize at the breech where the charge is the hottest, and the pressure is the highest. The cure is a lube with a high flash point, that isn’t adulterated with a bunch of stuff that can’t take the heat and pressure. Bear grease, or oil, venison tallow, mutton tallow, all work well.
Hungry Horse
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Scota4570: please describe your loads. Ball diameter and alloy, patch thickness, and quantity of lube. I follow Daryl's philosophy: 005" - -010" undersized pure lead ball, cotton (denim) patch .018 - .024" thick depending on barrel and rifling style, and a starter to introduce this tight combo into the muzzle. I lay the soaked patch over the muzzle, place a ball sprue up on it and smack it into the muzzle with the short (5/16" long) peg of my starter. The lube sprays laterally in all directions. But the patch is pulled so tightly over the surface of the ball that the weave of the fabric imprints into the lead, and there is no dripping lube left on that part of the patch, so it doesn't contaminate the charge. I use all of the lubes you describe, and more, and never get a crud ring. I suspect your combo is too loose and you aren't using enough liquid lube.
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Maybe try a wad over the powder and a wet tight patch?
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"Scota4570: please describe your loads. "
My last outing was with a rice 45 cal square rifled barrel. The most accurate loads used a 440 ball and 0.018 patch soaked in moose milk. I wring out the patches so they are not dripping all over the bench and rifle. The crud builds up under the ball seating position. As I shoot it get larger. I was wiping every 5-shots. After five, the ring of fouling was large enough that it could not be removed with wet patches. It required a wet nylon brush.
As the fouling ring builds up, the ball is seated more foreword with each shot. The ball is then seating against the the fouling. I like the idea of seating on the powder with consistent pressure.
Maybe this is normal? I read about guys who shot many shots and do not have fouling problems. I guess if used a smaller ball and a super thick patch it might be possible. I do not get good accuracy that way.
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The problem with “Moose Milk” is that every scissor bill with a muzzleloader has his own recipe. And some of the key ingredients in the original recipe may very well had had major changes as well. The original recipe I got many years ago was a cup of water soluble oil, a half cup of formula 409 cleaning liquid, to a gallon of water. Now there is a good chance that the oil, and the household cleaner, have had formula changes over the years. And, even if the formulas haven’t changed it could be that the secret recipe for moose milk got changed over the forty some odd years.
Oh, to grease patches, put a shoe polish tin full of venison tallow over the chimney hole of a candle lantern (with a SHORT candle) and give each pre-cut patch a quick dip. Spread them out on a couple of layers of paper towels and let them dry, and harden up. Oh, and if you want to live, don’t do it in the house.
Hungry Horse
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Daryl and Taylor gave some great suggestions. My favorite .45 has square cut rifling. I use a .440" or .445" ball (they load the same) and a canvas patch of around .023" compressed. No swabbing is necessary regardless of number of rounds fired. On occasion there is a "crud ring" but I don't normally notice until I preclean at the range when I leave. You shouldn't have to go to a smaller ball when you go to a thicker patch. Wet lubes are my go-to at the range and TOW mink oil out in the bush. Preventing "blow-by", IMHO, is key to reducing fouling.
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Shoot continuously and you're gonna get a crud ring no matter what powder! Nature of the beast!!
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Shoot continuously and you're gonna get a crud ring no matter what powder! Nature of the beast!!
I respectfully strongly disagree.
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What does continuously constitute? I have shot 40 continuous shots with no crud ring. Tight load with bear oil lube.
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The crud ring means you’re doing something wrong.
Hungry Horse
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I wont say this is your issue, but it's one more thing to check off your list... What are you using to oil/protect the bore after cleaning?
I had an issue with a crud ring a while back. I had failed to completely remove the oil from my bore prior to shooting, even after swabbing the bore out with numerous alchohol-soaked patches. The ring got so bad it became nearly impossible to seat a load... I had to spend a while with some serious elbow grease cleaning to resolve the issue.
I started using extra virgin olive oil to oil my bore after cleaning. I would probably be happier with an animal product but the EVOO was in the kitchen and works. If I dont get every trace out of the bore it doesnt cause issues.
Mike
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I live in Kentucky and have had the same experience as Mark when it comes to Swiss powder. It causes less fouling but the fouling is really hard and I can get only two shots before I have to wipe the fouling. Goex I can shoot longer because the fouling is softer. I've never lived where the humidity is low so I can't give much advice on powders or lube for such conditions.
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Scota4570,
I generally follow Daryl's shooting program with my rifles, but considering your problem, try the below....
Not sure why the crud ring has started forming, but try this for a remedy - the English method for target shooting. Fire the rifle, then pour the powder in the barrel, follow with a over powder wad or your best facsimile. Swab the bore with a damp patch, then load patch and ball. The grime gets forced onto the wad and does not contaminate your powder or touch hole, yet allows you to clean the bore.
You can make wads from milk cartons etc if you don't have any in your rifle caliber. Try it and let us know your results.
Curtis
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Curtis, Thank You!
I had forgotten the card over powder, then swabbing.
I will have to try that.
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In humid weather I've never seen a hint of crud rings near the breech. The few occasions when I've found one was during low humidity days. While I can't, of course, remember every shooting session no crud ring has ever hindered the seating of prb even in dryer weather. And they've always wiped out easily at the end of a shooting session.
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I use a mix of Ballistol and water, about 1:3 or 1:4 (ballistol:water). I have found this to be a HUGE help in preventing the fouling from turning into a crunchy coating. I used to use straight Ballistol, but adding water has made it work tremendously well (for me). This is NC, where we get hot, humid summers.
I don't swab between shots. I use a very wet patch. I think the patch coats the bore well while driving the ball down, both cleaning and softening the fouling. All I know is that it has made loading much easier. It used to be a very crunchy, difficult thing to load after 10 shots. Now, it's as easy on the 20th shot as the first.
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Another factor could be if you have ever used a black powder substitute in your gun. If so you may have a rough section just ahead of the powder charge. This will grow a crud ring in no notes.
Hungry Horse
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Another factor could be if you have ever used a black powder substitute in your gun. If so you may have a rough section just ahead of the powder charge. This will grow a crud ring in no notes.
Hungry Horse
Good suggestion, HH - I hadn't think of that, but yes, that would make for a continual accumulation of fouling, ie: crud ring, no matter what loading combination was used - most likely.
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Not to start a powder war, but I've tried various powders and lubes, but have always preferred Goex because the fouling was easier to deal with. I've been working with a .45 flintlock as of late, and it definitely prefers ffg over fffg Goex. I can shoot numerous shots without needing to wipe (mink oil or avocado oil), or all day with LVL/SVL/MF. Switching to Elephant, Diamondback, or Swiss requires wiping between shots. Loose ball & patch just makes things worse as it fouls more quickly.
In my .50 flintlock, the preferred load is 80gr Goex fffg, but I've found that if I duplex 15gr Goex fffg under 65gr Diamondback ffg, it works very similarly. I prefer to spend my time loading and shooting rather than extra cleaning.
Is Elephant powder still available? I have a can or maybe 75% of a can I have had for years.Also old DuPont,Cutis&Harvey and one full can of Swiss.I have never had the fouling problems described here
but used some swiss 3rg in a bullet gun and the fouling was harder but the performance was very good.
I used some Elephant in 45 Colt pistols when I shot BPCR at Ralph Marcum's in the 1990's.THAT is one
event I really miss.I told everyone I did not come to shoot but only to eat at a local diner because I found I
had an artery that wasn't clogged and wanted to help it a bit. ;D.RIP Ralph,I miss you and Bud Garret,Don Mills,Joe Baldwin,Bart Mantia,Marcy Campbell and John Hardesty.
Bob Roller
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Bob,
Elephant is long gone. The plant in Brazil closed in about 2001 after being flooded for 6 months. Once the water went down all of the machinery was sold to some young rich guy down there who built a new plant about 50 miles down the coast to a city built specifically to handle "dangerous materials". We then see that plant's powder show up here under the Diamondback Powder trade name. This Diamondback company being owned by Copperhead Chemical Company in Canada. I got a sample can of the 3Fg Diamondback out of Dixon's when they tried to get him to handle it. This Diamondback Chemical company was operating out of the old Atlas Powder dynamite plant at Tamaqua, PA. ICI was running the plant making medical nitro tablets at the time this Diamondback Powder showed up. And the Diamondback Powder was no better than the old Elephant powder at a time when GOEX had made very good improvements in their powder and Schuetzen and Swiss were on the U.S. market. And Diamondback priced their powder up there with GOEX and later wondered why it was such a big flop. After awhile this Diamondback tried to get me to go up to Tamaqua since I am not far from that plant. I did some serious ducking and hiding on that one. The old Atlas dynamite plant was known for frequent explosions. The truck loads of dynamite on steep narrow coal regions roads. Who needs working brakes on trucks full of dynamite ???
Bill K.
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Trucks full of weeping/leaking dynamite?
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Trucks full of weeping/leaking dynamite?
No Daryl. These were truck loads of freshly made dynamite. I have often read that dynamite could only be set off by a special igniter. But when those trucks missed a certain curve in the road and ran into trees the stuff would often go up with a bang. If the load started to burn the sticks of dynamite would be heated to a temperature where the nitroglycerene would take over the event. There have been a number of "events" around the world where dynamite stored at too high of a temperature auto exploded. There was even one event where a bunker full of black powder actually detonated when the storage temperature got too high and it was all heated to an ignition temperature at the same time. In that event the uniform heating of the sulfur contained in the powder. Once the sulfur turned from a solid to a vapor the whole lot of it went up in one quick blast. Sulfur vapors in the powder are highly reactive. If the powder has access to open flowing air the sulfur vapors are released and just drift away in the air. But when confined in the containers and a building you can get this mass deflagration which is almost the same as pure detonation. There was a lengthy Bureau Of Mines paper published on that in the early 1900s.
Bill K.
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Tks Bill.