AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Acer Saccharum on September 19, 2009, 04:57:34 PM
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I have a lock here, and I wonder if you can place its date of manufacture. Just roughly. It has a bridle on the frizzen, and fully bridled on the inside. No screws come thru the front, except the frizzen pivot screw. A class job.
I assume this to be a Germanic import lock, from an American built gun.
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That was hand made by Mike Brookes in 1986.
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1780/90, unless it's a nicely aged new one. See Taylors comment!
But oh lordy I need that lock! Wanna sell it??? :o
John
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It's new old stock. Hardly used. Very few scuffs on the frizzen. Screw slots are all crisp and clean. Hardly any serious rust. I assume it's casehardened. The closest lock is Davis' Colonial. But that has no frizzen bridle.
I am wondering WHEN frizzen bridles became popular in this country. When the f. bridle was invented is a different matter entirely.
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Acer,
That is a very cool lock. I remember Wallace G talking about how you can't date locks by the absence or presence of a frizzen bridle alone, being they were puting them on some flintlocks in the late 17th c. and were making bridleless locks into the early 18th c. This reminds me of the Germanic lock that Jack Brooks is reproducing. I like the feather spring file details.
I assume its off of one of your pieces? Have you shared pic's ?? ;)
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I'd date it but when I got home my wife would castrate me.
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I have a lock here, and I wonder if you can place its date of manufacture. Just roughly. It has a bridle on the frizzen, and fully bridled on the inside. No screws come thru the front, except the frizzen pivot screw. A class job.
I assume this to be a Germanic import lock, from an American built gun.
I would be interested to see a couple of the screws removed for inspection. IE what is the thread form and pitch.
Dan
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I'd date it but when I got home my wife would castrate me.
She doesn't strike me as that sort of gal.
This lock isn't mine. Small chance of getting screw thread pix. I'd like to know how the screw holes are drilled, tapped. They must have had bottoming taps as well as regular ones. We have modern taps that are called thread forming taps. They don't cut the thread, they deform the metal into threads. I wonder if the taps they used were along that kind of design. Or harden the screws and jam them into the soft plate to finish the threads at the bottom of the holes.
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Can't see in the photos, but are there any initials stamped on the inside of the lock plate?
If so, check Kindig.
Dick
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Style wise it appears to be from the 1750s or 1760s. Doesn't appear to be a repro. Germans & French loved blind holes. Beautiful lock. Stan
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This lock isn't mine. Small chance of getting screw thread pix. I'd like to know how the screw holes are drilled, tapped. They must have had bottoming taps as well as regular ones. We have modern taps that are called thread forming taps. They don't cut the thread, they deform the metal into threads. I wonder if the taps they used were along that kind of design. Or harden the screws and jam them into the soft plate to finish the threads at the bottom of the holes.
Acer,
The lock appears to be earlier than some have suggested. Germanic locks are harder for me to date than English locks but with that bit of curve to the plate I would think more like 1750-60. One of this quality was not the production of some area that was far behind the times and current fashion.
Bridles, or the lack thereof, is much more related to quality (and in the case of trade locks, cost) than period. An exception to this is seen in the case of high art French locks where it was also a matter of style--the French apparently preferred the cleaner lines of a lock with no external bridle even on the fine guns shown in the Master French Gunsmith's Design book.
Cheap trade locks were made without either internal or external bridles bridles until the second, and perhaps third quarter, of the19th century. Store records here in Virginia show locks listed and priced by the number of bridles before the Revolution. I have not studied the later period.
Bottoming taps were well know in the 17th and 18th centuries.
Stan posted while I was writing this but we agree so I'll post anyway.
Gary
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Thanks for the replies, gentlemen. The lock hain't no repro, fo' sho'. It's on a gun that was purchased over forty years ago. While graceful, it is built like a truck, beefy and strong. Great parts, but the stocking of the gun is mysteriously crude. Hardware looks later than 1750 or 60, more like 1780 or so.
fat, Dutch-Germanic almost Jaeger-like buttstock, original lid.
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Wide cheekpiece, long extension on buttplate
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No carving behind cheekpiece.
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Incredibly small bow on guard, flat simple trigger, deeeeep barrel stamping, a crown.
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Don't tease us. Show us the rest of it!!!
Dick
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Yes !! Some more pictures, cheekpiece side, lock & sideplate & entry pipe areas. Stan
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That's about all I have for pix. Ever see anything like this before? High grade wood, curly from front to rear. Butt has a piece spliced along the bottom edge. I believe it to be to save the piece of wood as the gun was being made, not from accident later. Buttplate shows no damage from a crash. The piece is very long and notched in near the end of the guard. Repair piece held in with square wooden pegs.
Tom
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Well then, Tom; thank you for showing us what you do have of it. Actually it's quite a bit and well worth looking at it. That is one pretty fine rifle and the owner is very fortunate.
There is so much about it that is nice and unique, it's hard to say much in a few sentences.
As you pointed out, it has a Dutchy look to it and a great piece of wood for what is an early rifle. Wonder if it might not be a Stone-Rabby or Palatinate made gun. It seems to me that as early as the Germans came into those settlement areas in New York they didn't come unarmed, nor were they incapable of repairing, or making guns. A wild thought, but I have often wondered if the American Rifle might not have originated up in those parts. There is no proof that it did not: at the least it had an early appearance in that region.
As to the use of a short plank for the stock; quite possible. I have later rifles with scabbed on wood to complete the stock and profile. Those old guys may have been Germans but they behaved like Scotchmen on occasion.
Thank you again for posting a great piece of Americana.
Regards-Dick
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Thanks for your thoughts, Dick. In regards to a NY rifle, that thought crossed my mind, and how I wish I could say it was a NY made gun. But I don't have much to go by, considering the few rifles that survive from early NY. As I understand it, most of the early NY rifles were PA made, or made by PA smiths moving up into NY. This gun, and it is a rifle, has little in the way of brothers or sisters in all my travels. The closest I can come is the Dutch/German styling.
I thought you all would enjoy looking at it.
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Tom shared pictures of this with me a couple years ago so I've had time to think about this rifle. I see a couple details found on rifles shown in Shumway's Rifles of Colonial America.
First is the sideplate which is identical to the sideplate on RCA 124, an early, walnut-stocked rifle that came out of Virginia. The guard is not dissimilar to the guard on RCA 124; also the guard on the Free Born rifle comes to mind for me.
Second is that the underside of the cheekpiece, in the way it tapers, is similar to the Brass Barreled Rifle (RCA 103) and the Germanic gun RCA 102.
Next, although it lacks a "step", the way the stock tapers to the buttplate is reminiscent of several early rifles or smooth rifles including RCA 102.
Last and perhaps least, the nose of the comb which I call "the dolphin" reminds me of the comb on RCA 120, a gun with English styling that may have come out of Johnstown NY.
To me the most telling features when we look for "kin" are the sideplate, which is of a rare form, the form of the cheekpiece, and the taper of the stock behind the cheekpiece to the buttplate. I think this rifle was probably stocked quickly and efficiently by a skilled hand, using mostly planes and spokeshave. Whether or not it is a restock or a "parts gun" assembled for the Revolutionary War using some parts from an earlier gun, is a question worthy of consideration. When I note the high quality lock and the rough and ready (but bold and skilled) stocking, my imagination leads me in that direction. The buttplate in its dimensions appears later in style (1770-1780) than the lock or stocking style. But in the early days I am sure there was a lot of recycling of parts, especially quality parts like that lock.
(I did some editing)
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Some anomalies on this gun, in that the wood shows considerable use, as in carry wear, but the lock and touch hole show little wear or erosion. Part of this is that the lock is very high quality, and probably is thoroughly case hardened. But the touch hole appears almost new. That the wood is so worn may be due that the stock is Red maple, rather than Sugar, and a softer grade. This is all speculation on my part, but it does lend credence to Rich's suggestion of a parts gun.
I also agree with a lot of Rich's architectural references to the guns in RCA.
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Endview of BP. Patchbox cover missing its plate. two old retainer nails protrude from the end of the cover.
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Patchbox and contents, waxy tallow substance.
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Tang carving. Note heavy wear on lockside of tang carving.
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Muzzle. approx .54, rifled. Note the partial enclosed end of the cap. Formed one piece, very thin brass.
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Touch hole. VEry small.
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Barrel stamp, a crown, with balls on the headband, and possibly a faint crucifix at the top center of the crown.
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Now that is in my opinion a real transitional rifle. The missing link between the Germanic and the PA-KY longrifle. Thanks Tom for posting these pictures!
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It is indeed interesting.. Looks like it was made for soldier who liked to buttstroke his enemies when he got into the hand-to-hand stuff!! :o :o :o
Is that what a snickers bar looks like in a patchbox after 250 years??
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Is that what a snickers bar looks like in a patchbox after 250 years??
Now that's funny! :D
John
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The carving around tang and hind thimble skirt remind me of attributed Berks county stuff. The but piece does also. I agree with Rich Pierce that the taper on the cheek piece is reminiscent of the brass barrel rifle and the similarity to RCA 124. Then again, I always thought that 124 had some relationship to the Berks/Reading area or visa versa. I know that others will disagree and freely admit most of my knowledge is based on pictures rather than actual rifles. Very cool lock and an even neater rifle stocking. I would like to see more
Bruce
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I see some Berks, too. That narrow toe of the buttplate, around 9/16, if I remember.
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The way the nosecap is folded back under itself on the side flats of the barrel.....isn't that more typical of one school/location than others??
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Tim, Lehigh style caps are often open ended, with the material wrapping around the wood, into the bbl channel overlapped and riveted, or paratially wrapped into the channel. I have also seen Lehighs with a two piece nosecap, end soldered closed with the second piece of metal.
I don't know this kind of cap, one piece, partially closing the end, the tails, wrapping into the bbl channel, wrapping only the two upright flats.
German caps are often cast, screwed to the barrel. Wood floats back and forth inside the cap.
This cap has NO rivets, relying on the crimp of the sides of the cap. Unusual. Again.
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Thinking about barrel channels, this gun has a round channel, only octagon at the muzzle. Note the thimble tab, which is the middle one, is marked with two notches, and those are toward the muzzle. Same way I do it, Taylor, too. This only means that there are certain natural ways of working for the human being. Thimble is sheet made, not cast, and not soldered together. Also note no finish or stain in the barrel channel.
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Note also the crooked drilling of the tenon pin. It does the job, tho'. That's what this whole gun is about......getting the job done. If a Rupp, Kuntz or Schuler is a Mercedes, this gun is a pickup truck.
Note just one more thing, the inlet for the barrel at the breech. Round. Staining from contact with the corners of the barrel evident. OOPS! the mainspring inlet broke into the bbl channel. Ramrod hole invades mainspring pocket.
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I guess I have more pictures than I remembered.
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Hmmm, dig deep into your subconscious and remember all of them. ;)
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Barrel surfaces, hidden in the channel, shows original grind marks. They didn't drawfile to clean it up or anything. Some spots are filed on the underside, I assume to work a high spot down.
Looking at it now, the tenon is broken on the corner. This means it is not malleable material. Could it be cast iron?
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Note the round barrel channel
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Sights, rear. Note the upset metal ahead of the sight.
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Front sight. Around the sight, you can se the original drawfile marks. This was never finished up to a high shine. A filed finish was A-OK.
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Tom,
That is a super cool gun with a heck of a lot of character. Thanks for showing this to us.
Sean
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Acer,
On that picture of the front sight, I would be concerned that the draw filing interupts the slight rust pitting on the surrounding barrel. Looks to me that the sight was added or reworked recently compared to the barrel surface.
Gary