AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: smart dog on August 20, 2021, 01:55:47 AM
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Hi,
Next up in my queue is an early Peter Berry inspired by the gun below.
(https://i.ibb.co/9tLfVdR/3-Peter-Berry-Three-Quarter-Right-Side.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JQ4bySX)
(https://i.ibb.co/KG4fZGq/4-Peter-Berry-Detail-of-Patchbox.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6Z9ThZP)
(https://i.ibb.co/8nw76yP/8-Peter-Berry-Detail-of-Carving.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nqyLzXQ)
This has always been one of my favorite guns because it is dramatic and unusual. However, I have a love-hate relationship with Berry, or Berrys if you accept the father and son hypothesis, because they were immensely creative but the execution is sometimes disappointing. He or they were prolific carvers but definitely not of the caliber of Isaac Haines. Then again what other colonial or golden age makers were? I definitely will recreate the odd alignment of the patch box but I am not sure I will go as far as having the lower butt molding run right through the brass. I discussed this project with Allen Martin and he urged me to do all the funky stuff. I like funk and folk but not crude. We will see what happens. I would appreciate reading folks thoughts about that. One change I will make right off is I will beef up the wrist at the comb a little both in width and height. On the original pictured above, that point measure only 1 3/8" in height. There are 3 Berry's I've seen with this stock architecture and 2 have broken wrists. Not a good sign.
I am using a sugar maple stock with moderate curl cut and dried in Vermont. The barrel is a "C" weight Allentown profile by Rice in 54 caliber. The original rifle has a barrel about 1/2" longer and smaller caliber but a similar profile. However, the original gun weighs 12 lbs. Mine will be lighter and much better balanced. I have a sand cast butt plate that is close to the right style and size. The original is 5.5" tall. Mine is 5.375" tall. I still need to find a good trigger guard. The lock presents another problem. All of the commercially made round-faced English-style locks that I like are too large. It is critical the lock be scaled correctly to maintain the architecture. The only lock that fits is the L&R Queen Anne. So I am going to build a completely new lock using the L&R plate, frizzen, flintcock, top jaw, and feather spring, and Siler parts for everything else a la Chris Immel (aka Stophel). It will eventually be a very good lock.
The first job, while I am waiting for the Siler internal parts is to clean up and flatten the lock plate. I don't have a milling machine but I do have good files and I flatten lock plates very precisely. A few swipes of the mill file shows how uneven the inside of the lock plate is. There is always a depression where L&R stamps their logo.
(https://i.ibb.co/xY3Y16c/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nBRB7jV)
(https://i.ibb.co/Svm0cRT/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/12XKM8V)
(https://i.ibb.co/chd7Qt3/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KxH3W7h)
Fortunately, it is in a harmless location, however, on this lock the whole area where the upper portion of the bridle fits was in a depression. Careful filing cleaned that all up.
(https://i.ibb.co/DVQTQt3/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0DrvrcP)
Now it is ready to fit new internal parts. I am waiting for those so I fixed the stupid lug issue on the frizzen. L&R has this lug on the frizzen that fits down into the pan. They advertise that it is a waterproof measure. Actually, it draws water down into the pan as well as compresses the priming powder. Anyway, no locks of that style or time period having anything like that. I am fitting a new frizzen because it will be so much easier to do than fit the fitted frizzen that came with the lock after eliminating the lug. I ground the lug away and filed a proper notch that prevents powder at the vent hole from being compressed slowing ignition (ever thought why all those English locks have that notch?)
(https://i.ibb.co/fvy6sLH/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BNQW9FB)
(https://i.ibb.co/QfJMJ8b/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/s9nLP87/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zz5yJq9)
I am still waiting for the lock parts so I worked on the stock. Dave Keck inlet the barrel and ramrod groove and hole for me. He did a great job but I made a miscalculation where the breech of the barrel should be positioned. I am not sure how I screwed that up but the barrel needed to come back almost 5/8" inches. The dark marks on the stock show where the breech ended previously and how much I moved it back.
(https://i.ibb.co/sKfszSX/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rxj5NPX)
This is instructive because it shows that you can change the position of swamped barrels quite a bit without creating gaps in the barrel inlet. Certainly, a lot depends on the profile of the barrel but I was able to move this barrel back quite a ways with no trouble. It meant cutting out the breech further back and scraping the barrel inlet near the muzzle to accommodate the flare. It worked really well.
(https://i.ibb.co/sKfszSX/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rxj5NPX)
(https://i.ibb.co/3YN031g/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6JP4MYj)
(https://i.ibb.co/Xj40L3p/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pbPVwRZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/wNrGsf1/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SX7Yrzp)
I trimmed up the stock a bit and here is where I am.
(https://i.ibb.co/d4NtpdQ/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DfBYMx7)
(https://i.ibb.co/Cthv70R/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qnk9s1T)
dave
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Go Dog go! I have looked at this rifle many times and wondered why he installed the patchbox thus. But, if that was his style (at least in this case), it is distinctive and contrary to normal placement and that is why I looked at it so many times. As for the molding through the patchbox, F. Sell made a rifle where the molding goes through the escutcheon plates on the forearm, so it has precedence. My opinion is that no matter whether you follow the design of the rifle strictly or not, everything will be an improvement in terms of the quality because you do super work.
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Cool project. I’ve always found the Peter Berry rifles like this one very appealing but worried about the wrist. You’re picking fun projects.
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Smart Dog, that is a fine Berry you are going to copy .
Berry more than likely made that rifle early in his career. He worked in Dauphin county, Pa. at that time. If you check all Dauphin county patch boxes tend to be installed exactly like what’s on this rifle. The transition of the comb to the wrist I think adds grace to this rifle. The features that you find negative on this particular rifle are what adds identity to it.
This is a fine rifle, and I’m sure you will do it justice.
Bob
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Another thread to save to my phone. This is gonna be great to follow. I dont build but I learn a lot. Good idea for a slimmer/lighter barrel. 12#. Jeez. What do you think your copy will end up...about 9#?
Keith
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David,
Don't think Ive ever seen that original before. What a beauty!!
I know you'll do it justice!!
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Awesome build Dave.. look forward to following this.
Anthony
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I can't wait to see what you do with this one, I remember you posting about it when I was taking my stab at it. Whether you go dead on or add your own style I'm sure it will be impressive. I tend to take the things I like and suit it to my needs or tastes, but certainly appreciate bench copies.
I used a 38" Oct/Rnd .58 Colerain (D weight?) on mine, which got the weight down to just a hair over 6lbs. Same lock as you, although I didn't touch the internals. Shaped the plate a bit to match better, but that was all. The lock doesn't feel as snappy and tight as most I've tried, but never had a misfire or problem with it going off and it's my main hunting rifle, too. The patchbox is neat, not sure what I'd do there, but obviously I was in the mood for a wood box when I built it and thought this was a nice continuation of the theme. I took some measurements and my wrist is 1 3/8" tall and the buttplate I used is 5 3/8" tall (was the tallest I could find at the time, and I think I remember hammering the toe out to get a bit more out of the sand cast one I got from TOTW). I worried about the wrist too, but no problems. The original in the pic seems to me to stem more from grain orientation than thickness.
Has anyone noticed the funky panel ahead of the lock? Can't call it a beavertail! Quirkiest carving there of any rifle I can remember, but I like it. ;)
(https://i.ibb.co/tD9Pg1z/2016-12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bXkRTGF)
(https://i.ibb.co/DCD2GdQ/2016-11.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R0pwh8c)
(https://i.ibb.co/L6VYj4q/2016-02.jpg) (https://ibb.co/P4qFXBb)
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Dave listen to the wise words of Ragin Cagun. The little quirks that this rifle has is what draws our eyes to it. Fixing the quirks is not always the best idea. You are a talented builder and I am sure you will do a fabulous job regardless.
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Hi,
It has been a while since I could get back to this project. I was gone for a week and then had a lot of other work to do unrelated to making muzzleloaders. Thank you all for your thoughts and insights. Bama, I listen, particularly to folks who know what they are about. That is the great joy of this website because those folks participate. The patch boxes on these rifles were not added later but were a signature style for Berry (or Berrys) and to ignore that would miss the mark. However, there are 3 rifles of this early Berry style of which I am aware and at least one has the patch box interrupting the lower butt molding without running the molding line through the brass. That is what I will do. When I am done it should scream Berry but I am not going to risk a weak or poor handling rifle. I am a pretty good designer and I think I can pull this off.
I worked on the lock and installed all the new parts. The first step was to fill the old holes. I do that by deeply counter sinking both sides of the hole, threading in steel rod and clipping it off about 1/8" high on either side. I peen it down into the countersinks and then use my gas welder to melt it into the countersink and hole.
(https://i.ibb.co/8sRShZS/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xLcR4TR)
(https://i.ibb.co/HN4Vh3T/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7gCXkLt)
Then I file off the excess and old holes are gone.
(https://i.ibb.co/HnbN60F/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Yp1Dm6R)
Next I fitted a Siler tumbler, bridle, sear, mainspring, sear spring, and the flintcock.
(https://i.ibb.co/Fnt89jm/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CWFVqTm)
(https://i.ibb.co/NSvFm89/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bJ062Ss)
(https://i.ibb.co/NtcBMNP/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4KhrHSG)
(https://i.ibb.co/RhcG9TK/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WDfN6vX)
(https://i.ibb.co/7SRGX5X/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/51n56y6)
I have to polish up the springs and clean everything up. Then heat treat the works. I annealed the frizzen to clean it up and I will eventually case harden it and many of the parts. The frizzen required fitting to the pan after filing off the "waterproof lug" on the bottom of the pan cover. That lug really serves to hide the gap between the frizzen and pan, which I removed. Tomorrow, I will clean up the lock and get back to the stock. Oh, and the sear bar of the lock remains in the same position on the plate at rest, half, and full cock, yet to has a nice light release at full. I initially wanted to copy the original lock, which shows no screws behind the flint cock on the outside. However, the Siler tumbler does not permit a long sear spring tucked behind the flint cock and the L&R plate was too thin to hide the sear screw.
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I like funk and folk but not crude.
From your original post on this build. I think that fits many of us here and could be a big part of what draws us to the hand-made originals more than the assembly line products that came a few years later. Funk and Folk, has a ring to it. ;D
Looks like you've got it well in hand. I'll sit back and learn.
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Hi,
Got back to the Berry yesterday and today. Wonderful sunset yesterday!
(https://i.ibb.co/30TyVWX/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y8NnK5T)
I installed the barrel lugs, inlet the stock for them, and drilled the pin holes. I use 3/32" spring steel for the pins. I like the mortises to be nice and tidy.
(https://i.ibb.co/qC41f5r/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/68psxBW)
However, I made a mistake on one lug when drilling it. As you can see by the mortise, the lug bases stick up a little above the barrel flat. What occasionally happens to me is I measure the location of the pin hole too close to the bottom of the barrel and the drill hits the edge of the raised base and deflects upward a little. The result is the hole on one side of the stock is slightly higher than the other. When the stock is pared down, the difference essentially disappears and is no more than half the width of the pin.
I started inletting the lock. First, I pare down the side of the stock so there is not much extra thickness. It is a mistake to inlet a lock with too much wood in the way because you will create gaps along the edges of the mortise that you cannot see and you risk badly chipping the wood when you remove the plate. I inlet the bolster first so I can lay the lock plate flat against the wood.
(https://i.ibb.co/wzh65Lm/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pLjXYPF)
(https://i.ibb.co/sVXfmyh/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TgNfvmZ)
Then I trace the outline of the lock with a carving knife, stab the border in deeper, and back cut the edges.
(https://i.ibb.co/cgcqLQ5/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0Dj5trN)
(https://i.ibb.co/DCwjR5f/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/YRdGNTN/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
Using larger and smaller shallow sweeps, I cut away the bulk of the wood within the mortise.
(https://i.ibb.co/myjXBsn/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X5Q34Bn)
Then I smooth the bottom with a flat chisel and a flat dog leg chisel until the lock plate installs nicely in the mortise.
(https://i.ibb.co/XkW2zj6/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2YFnjWR)
(https://i.ibb.co/bbTgJqt/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9Z69tzP)
Next up, I inlet the lock internals and start shaping the stock. All the other hardware gets inlet after some shaping, not before. A nice feature of this lock is the pan fence is positioned such that it butts against the end of the barrel with the center of the pan sufficiently forward of the end of the breech plug. That is a nice touch.
dave
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Just my opinion, but I like the quirks as well. I am 100% on board with changes such as the wrist which will make the finished product more stable, but I think the little touches such as moldings and carvings are what give a rifle like this charm.
Jon
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Hi,
Thank all of you who responded with their opinions about Berry's guns. I appreciate and listen to all of you. I am going to create a Berry gun but it won't be a bench copy of any particular gun. I don't want to make a bench copy but I do want to make a gun that honors Peter Berry, and maybe Peter Berry senior. I will incorporate all of the funk but not the crude. Mine will be an amalgam of the 3 Berry rifles of this early style. When I am done, I hope there will be no question that the result is an early Berry that includes the best of what that implies. Again thank you all and keep commenting. I enjoy hearing from you.
dave
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Hi,
Well I got a bit more done. I finished inletting the lock. I like a nice and clean lock inlet. Many 18th and early 19th century long rifle lock mortises were hogged out without a lot of care. Not mine. I do it the piece meal way. I first inlet the plate, then using the plate as a template, mark the holes for the bridle, sear, and sear spring screws. I drill each screw to the appropriate depth and diameter of the screw head. Then I insert the screws in the holes, position the bridal on those screws and trace it. I inlet it shallowly with chisels and then use a Dremel with router bit to hog out the wood for the bridle. I then trace the outline and travel arc of the tumbler and rout that space out with the Dremel. Using the sear screw as a guide, I position the sear, drill its deep hole for the trigger bar and rout our clearance for its head with the Dremel. I do the same with the sear spring. Finally, I drill out wood to the depth of the mainspring and then use the Dremel to clean up the mortise.
(https://i.ibb.co/jG1nZY9/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6bfjJSc)
I worked over the butt plate. I bought a large early "Lancaster" sand cast butt plate that had enough excess brass to be shaped for the rifle. The toe of the plate had a mass of sprue, which allowed me to peen and stretch the toe almost to the length of the original rifle. I then cleaned up the plate giving it the more delicate shape of the original. Many folks seem to ignore the architecture of their butt plates. That is a big mistake because it defines the shape of the butt, a major feature of any gun. In this case, the sand cast plate had a lot of excess mass allowing me to shape it appropriately. I often see contemporary guns where the edges of the butt plate are way too thick. They should be very thin to look historically correct until you get into the mid-19th century. I reshaped the butt plate after a lot of filing. It looks good now. The bottom of the plate had a thickness from the casting sprue that enabled me to peen and stretch the bottom close to the original butt plate's heigth of 5.5". Mine is now just under that by about 1/32".
dave
(https://i.ibb.co/CVZXVsz/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/hZQJJpx/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/74QLFKB/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KwDSHWB)
(https://i.ibb.co/XkVFSrV/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KzmVFpm)
(https://i.ibb.co/MpJbj4Q/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d6HS3qx)
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Hi Folks,
I have a question about the patch box release on this rifle. Looking at the photos, the patch box lid has a center catch like many traditional boxes. The head of the catch spring release has a flat side toward the middle of the lid. My guess is the catch is pushed up (toward the comb) from that flat side to release the catch and it is a simple spring like one for a wooden lid but set up horizontally and fastened to the upper side of the patch box mortise. Do you think that is correct?
dave
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(https://i.ibb.co/hy4qqF3/B841-C10-F-1-F1-B-4532-810-B-7-D160-AA0-E8-D1.png) (https://ibb.co/wRPvvh5)
This is a patchbox from a Samuel Laudenslager rifle in Snyder County Penn. I think this is very close to what you are looking for. Hope this helps confirm your suspicions.
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Hi,
Thank you Flinchrocket!! That is very helpful.
dave
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Hi,
I got the butt plate installed. On those with very shallowly domed returns, I usually just cut the stock flat on top but this one has a pretty high dome so I preserved wood to fill that space.
(https://i.ibb.co/FsRBD5k/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
The installation came out nicely.
(https://i.ibb.co/ckpWJ27/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Bc7hLTS)
(https://i.ibb.co/vmS8brz/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/CnXWgqH/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
My favorite tool for fitting a butt plate is my fine cut Dragon rasp. It cuts fast but very cleanly and can match the profile of any arc in a butt plate. When I drill for the top screw, I make the hole in the butt plate and use it to lightly mark the wood with a heavy center punch that fills the hole. Then, I punch a deeper hole with an awl that is offset about 1/32" from the previous mark toward the front. Then install a screw, which pulls the plate tight against the comb.
(https://i.ibb.co/7gdWN2n/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
I partially countersunk the screw heads but will finish the job when I dress the heads.
I started whacking wood off the butt stock with my Japanese hand saws, chisels, gouges, and rasps. A really helpful tool is the "gunsmith" rasp by Liogier. It is half round and long so you can work on the cheek piece without the handle interfering with the stock. You can begin to see the Berry starting to emerge.
(https://i.ibb.co/9ZydFGQ/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g4tc56k)
(https://i.ibb.co/qC6330P/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
dave
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Nice Dave, really nice. Cant wait for more.
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I was glad to see your comments regarding the thickness of the buttplate. This has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time. People will inlay a nice patchbox or add some nice carving,just to have a thick buttplate draw your eye away.
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Hi,
Yes Flinchrocket, the butt plate makes a difference to the whole rifle. On this gun, it establishes major dimensions for the butt and because of its large size would look horrible if left thick. I was very fortunate to find it among TOW's selection because I could not find any others close to the shape but over 5" tall. The sand cast raw plate must have weighed 2 lbs all by itself before I whittled it down. But it was big enough to contain a good copy of the Berry plate.
I shaved a lot more wood off the stock. The cheek piece on the original sticks out quite far so I am leaving plenty of extra wood to work on. The top of the comb is too Reading like and needs more gently arc into the wrist but I won't touch it until I've peeled away more wood.
(https://i.ibb.co/WpbCdqr/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1JDcphC)
(https://i.ibb.co/kBX7Tzk/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bmX0VYq)
(https://i.ibb.co/BBhc5Mj/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vkNV6nm)
I am beginning to trim down the fore stock and forearm and need to establish the bottom line of the stock. For that, I want to fit the rear ramrod pipe. The rear pipe tang has a truncated taper and a fairly prominent bulge at the step. Ted Cash's octagonal rear pipe was just the ticket after modifying it. After annealing, I used my pipe forming mandrel to raise the step a little. I simply held the pipe in my vise, slipped the mandrel into it and hammered it downward.
(https://i.ibb.co/XsRVPsj/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G2SFD2n)
(https://i.ibb.co/0Cb0GVZ/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GWSZ53k)
Then I annealed the pipe again, and tapped it from the inside with a hickory dowel that had the end rounded. I used a maple form I have for rear pipes. That added a little more height and I finished the job with files.
I'll inlet it tomorrow. As you can see there is a big bark inclusion behind the cheek piece. It is very hard and tight so right now I am treating it like some folks treat any annoying whine coming from their car's engine by just turning up the radio and ignoring the sound until some idiot light comes on (hence, the name). I am ignoring it for now.
dave
(https://i.ibb.co/27LT4dd/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MDjm077)
(https://i.ibb.co/BLy07Kw/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/DMCsjsQ/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FYwNdNz)
(https://i.ibb.co/rc13GhV/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BrSGVJ9)
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Hi,
I inlet the rear pipe. In the process, I thought I would share a short cut I use in cases like this.
(https://i.ibb.co/b3LQwd8/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3sW46hL)
(https://i.ibb.co/fk4Kc72/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dPG3hyr)
The rear pipe was fashioned from a standard Ted Cash octagon rear pipe. I did not touch the actual pipe, just the tang. Because it is manufactured, the pipe portion is identical to the forward pipes he produces. So I inlet one of the forward pipes instead of the rear pipe, which simplifies the process a lot.
(https://i.ibb.co/xzGQ9dZ/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SV0pYGS)
(https://i.ibb.co/7QGHrr6/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PM5R11f)
I mark the position of the tab and then drill a series of holes the width of the tab. Then I just cut out wood between the holes using a broken piece of fret saw blade held by a scalpel handle. I also use a needle file I ground and honed into the shape of a skew chisel. This makes cutting the slot easy. I then inlet the pipe.
(https://i.ibb.co/gt4VQM4/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L9N5BzN)
I test alignment of the pipe with the ramrod hole, which is easy using the ramrod drill. Now I just have the step and tang to inlet without worrying about the actual pipe. I just gradually inlet it backward until the job is done.
(https://i.ibb.co/hBwbCxV/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZB75NRx)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZGHnPZN/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bQHSZf7)
(https://i.ibb.co/wSb4hJb/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CbXQKJX)
Now I can establish the bottom of the stock before inletting the trigger and trigger plate.
dave
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I might be a little late to the party here but you asked so here goes. It is not bench copy so yes re align the patch box. Guaranteed it will take on even more ooos and ahhs then if built with the off aligned patch box. We already know what the gun looks like with that alignment , let's see what it looks like with proper alignment. You have the ability's to pull it off. Steven V
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Hi Steven,
Thank you for your input. I was all set in my mind to do it just like Berry but now I will think about it again. You are right, I am not doing a bench copy but I do want it to say Peter Berry very clearly. I have time to mull it over before I have to decide. Thanks again. I appreciate your thoughts.
dave
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I don't have any problems with the way the original is built, regarding the alignment of the patchbox in the buttstock. It just screams Peter Berry - it's practically unique. If you decide to tip the box up so that it doesn't interfere with the lower butt molding, the angle of the box relative to the buttplate will also be changed. I think that Berry was concerned more about the patchbox coming off the butt plate at close to ninety degrees, than the box interfering with the molding. To my eye, if this is altered to accommodate some contemporary notion of how a 18th C rifle should be built, you'd be missing the point. What is it about the original that captures your interest?
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Is it possible that this gun previously had a wood box that was replaced with a brass box? That’s the only reason I have come up with to explain why he put it so low.
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Hi,
It was Berry's style. Here is the second rifle of that style and the third I am aware of is in Kindig's book.
(https://i.ibb.co/fFxLdND/original-berry-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3dCQmFR)
(https://i.ibb.co/7z0NhWV/original-berry-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CtSsL7v)
(https://i.ibb.co/7v10mCV/original-berry-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZdMbDXK)
(https://i.ibb.co/yYBXxH5/original-berry-4.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
The patch box on the gun above is likely what I will do. It will interrupt the butt molding but I won't run the molding lines through the brass. I also like the carving on this one more than the previous rifle. Berry (or Berrys) were just a bit different, which is why I like the guns. Look closely at the way Berry treats the step at the rear ramrod pipe:
(https://i.ibb.co/fSPSy6y/original-berry-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Sx9xMYM)
I really long for something different. Somehow I picture Berry as this dude wearing some really cool Ray-Bans smoking a pipe filled with hemp and saying "Hammer", "geil", and "du bist ein quatschkopf" a lot.
dave
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The only one I had seen was the one in Kindig’s book. Looks like you need to do as Allen Martin says.
I have some Ray-Bans from 1966 if you need to borrow a pair. 8)
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Hi Flinchrocket,
Yeah some funky 60s Ray-Bans with my new Hudson Bay Co clerk's hat and several stiff Manhattans and boy I will be ready to carve a BERRY! I'll need more than a couple stiff bourbons before I inlet the patch box. I think that will add authenticity to my work. ;D They did drink a lot of alcohol in the 18th century.
dave
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Hi,
Got more done but I am FUSSING! I may be trying too hard to get the architecture right. Anyway, I think I am on the right track and here is the stock so far.
(https://i.ibb.co/pbwdKZh/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sbRq1QW)
(https://i.ibb.co/7NqQM5C/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k6tJbfB)
I am mostly following the architecture of the gun shown in David Hansen's book. The other 2 differ a bit. However, I am going to borrow from what I consider the good features of those rifles as well. Again, I am not making a bench copy but I want it to be instantly recognizable as an early Berry. I finished assembling and heat treating the internals of the lock. I still need to polish the outside and case harden the plate and flint cock but the lock is functional and is very good. It will be an excellent and reliable lock.
(https://i.ibb.co/gthSxGT/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zPDXz1R)
(https://i.ibb.co/Jkxqtkv/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DKGYWK9)
(https://i.ibb.co/FwP5s8n/spark-test-1.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/3c88HR2/spark-test-2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/qWnzQ6v/spark-test-3.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
dave
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Dave, are you going to file those little steps in the tail of the lock?
You may be at the point in shaping to already tell, but it's a gun that shoulders beautifully and very comfortably, at least for my physical build.
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Hi Osprey,
I am going to file those lines. Yes it does shoulder very well. The long barrel is a little muzzle heavy but still balances pretty well. I am a bit spoiled by my "Star of Bethlehem" rifle with respect to handling. Nothing else I've built or handled quite measures up to that one for my build.
dave
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Great project. I really like Berry's work.I ran across this Peter Berry at auction some where acouple yrs ago. It seem he made a habbit of crouding the forestock wedge key at the entry pipe area.
(https://i.ibb.co/KqbP8np/20191210-201334.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C7mcSL3)
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Hi Dave,
Thank you for that image. Berry is so fascinating. He was very creative but you get a sense that he pumped out his guns often without a lot of care or discipline. That is part of the reason I love his work but also partly why I don't like it. This is the dilemma that I am threading and also why I love this project so much. I want to create a gun that has Berry's signature all over it but I have a hard time accepting some of his rough work and design oddities (I hesitate to call them mistakes but to my design eye, they are). That tension creates a challenge, and I love a challenge. To make a bench copy is a mindless task because I just do what he did. I don't have to think about design, just copy what he did. Doing that doesn't interest me because my objective is not a bench copy but one that honors Berry. So I will keep all those features of design and decoration that identify Berry but reject the crude aspects that may be evidence of his haste and short cuts.
dave
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Hi,
It was Berry's style. Here is the second rifle of that style and the third I am aware of is in Kindig's book.
(https://i.ibb.co/7v10mCV/original-berry-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZdMbDXK)
I really long for something different. Somehow I picture Berry as this dude wearing some really cool Ray-Bans smoking a pipe filled with hemp and saying "Hammer", "geil", and "du bist ein quatschkopf" a lot.
dave
Not meaning to discredit your posts, Dave, but for quick and dirty work, I find he must have spent considerable time on his relief and incised carving(maybe)?
I do see some lines with flat spots though, suggesting quick work, regardless. I do like those rifles, though.
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I have always thought that P Berry put his patch boxes at an "odd" angle to avoid having to radically bend the brass where the comb hollows out. jmho. One of the elusive things about really nice "roman nose" combs is that the comb is nearly parallel to the barrel where the line meets the wrist, no real drop below horizontal. You are very brave to emulate such a unique maker
CS Wright
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Hi Clint,
Thanks for the note. I noticed the same thing about the line at the comb yesterday and changed the profile on my stock accordingly. The line of the comb at the butt plate intersects the neck of the flint cock and the line at the nose is close to parallel with the bore. I think those parameters define the butt stocks of most Berrys pretty well. However, if you look at the gun I first showed at the beginning of this thread, you can see the angle of the nose drops below horizontal. I am not sure which I like better but I have enough excess wood to experiment a little although I am getting very close to where I have to decide.
dave
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Hi Daryl,
He was a profuse carver and it certainly took time to do but compare his work with Haines below. I show roughly the same location on the stock. Berry's is profuse but some of the curves are rough and details crudely cut, whereas Haines' work is a little sparser but smoother and more finely executed.
(https://i.ibb.co/1ZFFwxJ/Peter-Berry-Detail-of-Carving-cheek-piece.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LSVV2fh)
(https://i.ibb.co/CW2wJS0/1981-Isaac-Haines-Shot-6-Detail-of-Carving-2.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
dave
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Tks Dave. I see exactly what you mean.
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Berry sure wasn't afraid of adding carving of which Liberace would have been proud! ;-)
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Smart Dog
Here is a photo of another P Berry patchbox and carving for your information. This is probably a later rifle then the one you are modeling yours after. The carving is diminished due to the way the rifle was stored. Let me know if you need any other photos.
VP
(https://i.ibb.co/7C3Z2PD/P-Berry-Patchbox.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h9G4DbN)
(https://i.ibb.co/L584SJy/P-Berry-Carving.jpg) (https://ibb.co/M6sqnGH)
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Hi VP,
Thank you very much!!! That is a beautiful rifle and I love that patch box. What I badly need are photos of carving around the barrel tang and rear ramrod pips. In all the ones I have, the carving is either badly worn or obscured by the repair at the wrist. I just cannot see the designs clearly but am hoping to use other Berry rifles as models.
dave
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Dave,
I doubt my photos will give you much insight but here they are.
(https://i.ibb.co/6R2784G/IMG-0047.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hRkJcKr)
(https://i.ibb.co/h7CQD7k/IMG-0055.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1vby8v3)
VP
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Here is a few more shots of several photos I've collected of Peter Berry's entry pipe's, forend transitions as well as some tang carving just to keep the thread informative. These are all later with the brass plate on the cheak piece. If one can call that a later feature. Not up to speed on when he started doing that particular signature feature.
(https://i.ibb.co/MkpsQtN/DSC-0084.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WvF6jMK)
(https://i.ibb.co/3zkSzBL/DSC-0071.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pyn4yJ9)
(https://i.ibb.co/JRpzZvx/39759x13.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SXmKStQ)
(https://i.ibb.co/VH2w4mS/49419x6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xmJFTHj)
(https://i.ibb.co/Th474YX/4897h.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zfXBXQc)
(https://i.ibb.co/jWfZ8y0/DSC-0055.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vQqvc3y)
(https://i.ibb.co/nD69CWk/20191210-201632.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gDmNVng)
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Hi Dave,
Thank you so much. Those are incredibly helpful!!
dave
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Here is another photo of a Peter Berry Tang Carving from Hornberger's book on Lancaster Rifles. It's a photo out of a book so a big blurry. Similar to the ones that Dave sent you.
VP
(https://i.ibb.co/j3tqg3T/Peter-Berry-Tang-Carving.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0Y51hYc)
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Hi,
Thank you VP!! You and Dave B have been so generous taking the time to post those photos. They are exactly what I need to see. The Berry rifles I've had in hand were from long ago and I am working from photos. I probably won't get to see a Berry in hand before I finish this project so your photos are critical and I appreciate them very much.
dave
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From a P. Berry I saw at a show last week. Hope it’s helpful.
(https://i.ibb.co/9wYm2jw/226-B8695-FCD7-4084-9784-90208-EA97-D69.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yhsm5Jh)
(https://i.ibb.co/qM5216P/2713670-D-9-B72-43-A9-9069-B142-D6-D907-CB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/svHX37M)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZNhVqL6/80-F0-EF60-525-C-4618-A0-DA-9-D8-A6-C842-CA5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/V3vtfjW)
(https://i.ibb.co/KVFNyVw/378986-A0-85-FF-474-A-812-D-EC46-C088-D4-FD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L9nQp95)
(https://i.ibb.co/30jh7B8/18-E8-B021-09-A6-4-D8-D-A9-DE-17-ADFD730-F8-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jLQ4Tgx)
(https://i.ibb.co/HTCX8q4/88-ADC56-F-86-BE-412-F-81-CB-F7187724-E857.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d4t7YDM)
(https://i.ibb.co/80PzN8N/22-FB5-D14-F99-C-4-BDE-9-F50-34-C0-D2-CD4-F06.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1LRs727)
(https://i.ibb.co/kDfSrB0/9534-B934-12-D6-4139-A1-E9-C09074-B48-BF3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PWn6bj4)
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Just finding your thread again and really happy to see what and how you are moving along with this build! Amazing to see, actually :)
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Hi Everyone,
Thank you all for your input and comments!! I was offline this last week because my hard drive died. My computer repair folks fixed it but I was off line during the last week. I made a lot of progress on the Berry. Here is where I am.
(https://i.ibb.co/74c3QCt/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3zXxvdm)
(https://i.ibb.co/St7gwbt/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WkpXvZk)
(https://i.ibb.co/PgSWD3n/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Yhrd0YM)
(https://i.ibb.co/q1nkjRN/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h8MD9KB)
(https://i.ibb.co/jg5yrxs/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3BspC8Q)
(https://i.ibb.co/Y34sYZm/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L8D7b5m)
(https://i.ibb.co/syTZpjW/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qkHvLBJ)
I shaped the stock close to the finished form and it is very elegant. Not only that, it holds and points unbelievably well. I forged the trigger and trigger plate. I installed all the ramrod thimbles and found a perfect sand cast trigger guard that could be shaped for the rifle. I made the muzzle cap from sheet brass. I simply shape the wood into the form I want, bend the annealed brass sheet around the muzzle, and then solder on a front plate. The Berry rifle I am working from clearly has a cap made that way. The front is soldered on the end of the sheet brass and not shaped to be inserted within the brass shell and soldered. Of course that makes it easy to make the cap. I sawed out a side plate from sheet brass and am still in the process of refining its outline before inletting. I also shaped the lock panels and wrist area. I have stressed this many times but too many folks carve their lock panels prematurely and use the wrong tools. Let the lock panels evolve naturally as you round the wrist. Do not cut the borders in with gouges except the front rounding the front of he lock. That is the only place for gouges or rat tailed files. Here are photos showing how it should be done. Note, no gouged panel edges except for the front. Even there, the gouge and rat tailed file work is minimal. You can always create lock moldings with tighter cove moldings using the method I show but you cannot go the other way if you cut too much off to soon.
(https://i.ibb.co/MCKH5FV/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/pXDP52k/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7yczLv0)
(https://i.ibb.co/2YRZhWc/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BKvn3cT)
(https://i.ibb.co/br3vskj/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/L0r9Nfr/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
dave
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I knew you'd like the shoulder feel of this one! Berry did some strange stuff, but he had the profile and stock shape on target. Looking good, but that knot and stripe are scary looking on the cheek side.
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Great seeing the progress, I have a little different question, how do you keep the stock so clean? Any time I have worked with Maple it looks like I soot my hands before I touch it.
Thanks, Tim
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Hi Osprey,
Berry's rifles are sleek. However, as I progress with this gun and get deeper into the details of construction as much as I can, I find myself thinking there were 2 Berrys. The three I've seen with this tall butt plate and somewhat dramatic stock design all differ quite a bit from later (presumably) Berry guns. The cheek pieces are very tall, the patch box design is different, the shape of the barrel tang differs, the shape of the wrists are different, and many other details. Certainly, a single Berry could have had a long career and changed styles over that time but I am not yet convinced there was only one Berry gunsmith.
Hi Tim,
The stock in the last photos was freshly filed and scraped during shaping so all the inletting black color was wiped away. I use blacking very sparingly so don't get the stock really dirty from that. However, when I file metal parts flush to the wood, the metal dust gets things pretty dirty and I use a pencil eraser and then light scraping to remove it.
dave
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Some sources claim one Berry, early and late guns, some sources claim a Jr and Sr. The two styles are quite different, would be nice to know for certain which is true. The style here is definitely the one that speaks to me though. Just the right amount of funky. ;D
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Hi Osprey,
Making the issue more confused are some genealogy sites that list Peter Berry senior as a gunsmith despite no hard evidence except perhaps the guns. Hopefully, future work will uncover more details. Personally, I am not convinced that because Berry senior's inventory at death showed no gunsmithing tools he wasn't a gunsmith. Perhaps, he quit and his son inherited them all. The tax list data are perhaps more compelling but they are sparse. Maybe time and unbiased and objective research will clear things up.
dave
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Hi,
Got more done but not nearly as much as I would like. I have too many other tasks demanding my time this fall and I think it is time to completely abandon by old life as a scientist and let it go. I find I enjoy the work less and less. Nothing exciting but I think perhaps useful. I made and inlet the toe plate.
(https://i.ibb.co/2MzFC3B/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
The rear is attached by 2 screws and the front will use a brass nail. The original rifle has a screw there but I do not like it at all and it screws up any engraving. I have 2 little chips in the mortice to fix but it came out pretty well. When I inlet toe plates, I sharpen my tools and then sharpen them again. They have to be razor sharp to deal with the end grain you will run into.
I decided on the position of the patch box.
(https://i.ibb.co/fMNDQB3/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kKDmMkL)
(https://i.ibb.co/3kKpZMw/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HXZt8x0)
It will look funky but a little less that the original because my stock shape differs owing to the fact that I fit it to my build. If I angle it down more, it will be off the center line of the original rifle. Mine is actually on that line. The lower butt molding will just hit the brass and I will let the brass interrupt it rather than file the line through it.
It should be very "Peter Berry". In making the patch box, I decided to follow Dave Crisalli's method in which the hinges are made separate from the lid and front finial. Then they are riveted and/or soldered in place. I just soldered them with Hi-Force 44, which should be more than adequate. The method yields neat and precise hinges. It is always wise to listen to Dave Crisalli.
(https://i.ibb.co/kxv2Tbz/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/px5jTVN)
(https://i.ibb.co/MkTjt1V/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b5hyCvB)
Oh, and with respect to the piercing in the front finial closest to the hinge, I am considering carving the letters "BATMAN".
dave
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Oh, and with respect to the piercing in the front finial closest to the hinge, I am considering carving the letters "BATMAN".
LOL ;D
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Or you could engrave the spotlight shining toward it on the patchbox lid, the bat signal! ;D
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Dave, aside from the wonderful work on this rifle build that I am gawking at, I am also thinking about what you wrote about the challenges of your profession and thinking of a change. Big thing to consider but a good thing to consider.
I would say what was said to me; Follow Your Dreams.
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Hinges look very good done that way.
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Hinges done that way would appear to have lower knuckles which is a nice touch.
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Dave mentions: "I decided to follow Dave Crisalli's method in which the hinges are made separate from the lid and front finial."
Here is a link to that thread.
Tim C.
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=61759.msg668643#msg668643
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Hi,
More done. I finished the main finial, lid, and hinge for the patch box. Making the hinge separate from the lid and finial simplifies things a lot and makes for nice precise hinges.
(https://i.ibb.co/8NnVLBk/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0mp3RX5)
(https://i.ibb.co/JHBHz0y/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QMbM6zC)
Taylor commented about the low knuckles. That has more to do with the 5/64" wire hinge and 0.040" thick brass used for the hinges. The finial and lid are 1/16" thick brass and you can image how much bigger the knuckles would be if made from that thick sheet. After the hinge is formed, I insert the pin and then hammer it down into a narrow space between vise jaws such that the bottom flattens and the round hinge is pushed to the outside of the lid and finial, raising it somewhat on the surface. This makes it easier to inlet because the bottom is almost flat.
(https://i.ibb.co/28L5JN3/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cbpxqLh)
I added 2 brass rivets to strengthen the attachment of the hinge on the lid, which will undergo the most stress. It is probably over kill. The brass rivets are small brass flat headed wood screws. The counter sinking on the outside is nicely filled by the screw so the rivets will eventually disappear on the out side.
(https://i.ibb.co/T84sBzc/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z8B06yd)
(https://i.ibb.co/z53BXVk/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TTQ74MC)
The forward hinge doesn't need any rivets because the wood screws attaching the finial to the stock will reinforce it. Finally, I made paper patterns for the side plates and glued them on to sheet brass. Tomorrow I will cut them out and finish making the patch box.
(https://i.ibb.co/MM5bR0k/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vZvbJn4)
dave
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Hi,
The patch box is ready for inletting. I finished the side plates and cleaned up all the edges, ready to go. Tomorrow, I will start inletting it. I will leave the rivet "bumps" on the outside of the lid until I final file and polish the lid. I will also move the box forward a bit. There is excess length left on the lid and side plates to accommodate the fit. I think it is a really attractive patch box.
dave
(https://i.ibb.co/DgKDQdp/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cXTcQqL)
(https://i.ibb.co/FVdnpmQ/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PQVtkF2)
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Hi Dave....Interesting LR you've chosen to build..........no matter how many Berrys there were , his, "their" work is surely different, bordering on "weird". You actually work quite fast, but it doesn't reflect that...because it's of such high quality. Rarely is fast and quality work done by the same person. Although I no longer build LRs, I've learned a few things from your posts. Too bad that when I started building LRs somebody of your talents didn't come forth w/ posts such as yours....."secrets" were how it went.
I too make separate hinge plates for both styles of Pboxes....Lancaster and Bucks County. The large parts of both styles are made from .05 thick brass but the hinge plates from .04 which causes the knuckles to protrude less. The hinge plates are attached w/ soft solder and haven't had one loosen. Really like that Berry Pbox!
Keep the posts coming.....Fred
(https://i.ibb.co/q56Qr3v/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4dkrVnH)
(https://i.ibb.co/ykFH5tj/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SmwF0bC)
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My good friend Cody Tetachuck up in Northern Alberta has a saying that I really like and is applicable here: You can have it fast, well made or cheap. Pick two.
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How is Cody?? He used to be on the old MLML group if I'm not mistaken.. and used to be on here..
Nice guy.. always enjoyed messaging with him.
Tell him I say Hi
Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan
aka, Dagwood
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Hi guys,
Fred, I actually don't work that fast but what happens is I stare and plan the next task for a long time. make sure I know what I want and have everything ready and then dive in. When I dive in, it goes fast but up to that point, I am very slow.
dave
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Hi Guys,
Do you see what Berry did with this hinge?
(https://i.ibb.co/j3FPpJV/original-patch-box-hinge.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1RxtSzs)
I believe it is a hybrid using some soldering. I think the hinge attached to the lid was soldered on as a separate piece. On the front finial, I think the center knuckle is a separate piece but the end knuckles were formed from the finial. Most interesting, Berry punched lines along the both sides of the hinge to raise brass up and onto the knuckles. That creates a butt or stop hinge preventing the lid from opening past 90 degrees. Impressive work.
dave
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Nice project you got going there and you are doing a great job, I always did admire Peter Berry's work.
As far as the hinges on the patchbox it would appear to my eyes that the hinges are rolled upwards instead of the usual downwards, am I wrong???
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Hi Mountainman,
Thanks for the post. With respect to the knuckles, I don't know. You may be right, which would make them look like separate parts from the plates . If you look closely at the outside knuckles, they look to be made by bending down but I really cannot tell for sure.
dave
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Hi,
Got more done. It has been hard finding time to work in my shop this week. Too many competing tasks. Anyway, I finished inletting the patch box lid and finials. I haven't installed the catch and spring yet. It came out well but it doesn't look quite as radical as the 3 original Berry rifles I am using as models. A while ago someone posted the idea that Berry positioned the patch boxes so the front flower would be close to center of the round wrist and avoid the hollowed out areas where the comb is formed. After inletting the box, I think that is right. I used several guidelines for the centerline of the box that were based on the originals and chose the one that would give the most radical and funky look. However, the results don't look that radical and it took me a while to figure it out. It is simply because the LOP on my rifle is an inch longer than the originals and I have a little more drop at the heel. Those two parameters really influenced how it all looked even when using guidelines from one of the originals. Anyway, I like the result. The side panels will eventually be held in place by brass screws that will be peened over to look like nails and the 3 forward screws counter sunk and fitted. Note the end of the box lid fits inside the butt plate so no notch in the plate is required. I think it is a very attractive patch box.
(https://i.ibb.co/3sLB5Mq/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g7BzbPp)
(https://i.ibb.co/qCdt3X7/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jzTcPBb)
(https://i.ibb.co/2PQgyjr/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S08RPKg)
(https://i.ibb.co/k4tBJdN/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tq9KzdV)
(https://i.ibb.co/BVvYz9H/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/27RpnT0)
(https://i.ibb.co/yfGLLnD/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/98zRR9J)
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Dave, I looked back but did not find the length of the barrel you used. I found this:
"The original rifle has a barrel about 1/2" longer and smaller caliber but a similar profile. However, the original gun weighs 12 lbs. Mine will be lighter and much better balanced."
In the third Pic above the barrel looks really long, maybe just the Pic but how long is it? Beautiful piece of work.
Tim
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Hi Tim,
My barrel is 45" long and 54 caliber. It is a beaut.
dave
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That's nice work Dave. I think you are going to find that once you cut the molding lines along the bottom of the buttstock, the box will suddenly be correctly positioned.
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Hi Taylor,
Thanks, I think you may be right about the molding lines. And Taylor, those moldings extend past the trigger, all the way to the front of the guard and attach to carving in front of the guard. This is going to be really fun! We will see how it all works out. The rifle fits extremely well. Berry's stock pattern is sleek and really functional. It beats any of the Lancaster pattern guns I've built to my build for fit. It is going to be a good shooting rifle.
dave
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https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=68314.0
That profile shoots really well on stags! You're making me want to build another and do the brass box next time...
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David,
Fabulous work (as is always the case) ! However, on the 12th of October while you were talking about the hinge on the patch box you graciously said..." It is always wise to listen to Dave Crisalli."
Would you mind engraving that on a brass or steel plate and sending it to my wife ? :o ;) She often says I'm full of....well....she says "wisdom".... but the long pause between the "full of" and the "wisdom" parts lead me to suspect that she doesn't really mean "wisdom". ???
Thanks
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Hi Dave,
I've always noticed that wives struggle to tell the difference between wisdom and "wisdom". It is wisdom when it agrees with their aspirations and "wisdom" when it doesn't.
dave
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Hi,
The limited time I have right now for gun work is really frustrating me. I am definitely making adjustments for next year. I completed the patch box for now. I constructed the catch. latch, and lid spring. Flinchrocket posted a nice photo of the kind of catch probably used on the original Berry and I examined photos of another rifle with a similar system. I saw problems with each and also wanted to make sure I could remove the butt plate without having to remove the entire assembly with the plate. So I got to thinking "what would Dave Crisalli do?" ;D So I engineered this solution. I don't like whimpy patch box latches and releases. I want a solid click. I also did not want something that released when I snugged my shoulder into the stock. I assume there is a reason why few gun makers used this design and it appears Berry only used it once. So the latch spring is sturdy and I made a latch that locks solidly into the catch on the lid. The latch joins the spring with a threaded rod anchored by a nut. That way I can separate the latch from the spring to remove the butt plate. The knob on the outside of the butt plate is threaded onto the latch but also soldered in place. I can remove it if I need to to finish the gun, and then solder it back in place. The system snaps closed with a distinctive sound and I think I could hang a 20lb weight from the lid and it would not fail (I over engineered it). It releases crisply and easily when needed but is not going to open inadvertently when I shoulder the gun.
(https://i.ibb.co/7WhXTRy/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/9nwdL3Y/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R2hJm4H)
(https://i.ibb.co/GCTLDTd/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QYdRVdJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/MGFq8KP/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Tb9zKJP)
(https://i.ibb.co/DR6Nn50/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MCjbLMF)
When I cut the cavity, I broke into the inclusion and knot on the inside. I had to really sharpen my mortising chisels to cut that stuff away cleanly.
Finally, I cut the lock and side plate moldings. I used one of the Berrys as a model for the rear beaver tails but am hedging on the front aprons. I cut the larger funky apron seen on the early Berry shown in Kindig. However, I think I will cut it back to the shape of the one in Hansen's book (the same one I pictured originally). It is funky but I will wait on it a bit. The other Berry of this design has no forward apron.
(https://i.ibb.co/CW4cQK6/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BwvpB2G)
dave
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Beautiful. I look watch these guns come together.
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What about inletting a piece of wood in the patch box cavity to overlap and cover the inclusion area and glued in place to give it a better usability. I'd be worried the 7 dwarfs would get in there and start excavating for a mine ;D
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I like the 'inclusion' and wouldn't do anything to disguise it. Such imperfections add interest to the rifle, in my opinion, and reinforce the saying: good stock wood doesn't grow on trees. If I did anything to it, I'd just give it s shot of very thin CA, let it 'take up' and plasticize the soft wood.
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Hi all,
Thanks for commenting. I will eventually shorten the lid pop up spring to make more free space in the cavity. The inclusion is very hard and dense. I don't think it will need anything but thinned CA or Acra Glas if anything. Moreover, I am in no rush to "fix" it. I will wait until after staining and before applying finish. There is one tiny crumbly spot that may interfere with carving behind the cheek piece that might need attention before finish.
dave
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Hi,
I got a little more done. It will be a few days before I can get back to the Berry. I shaped the fore stock molding. It was fun. I believe Berry used a gouge to give it a concave surface. The unevenness of his molding suggests to me it was a gouge not some sort of molding plane.
(https://i.ibb.co/VBtNXcC/Peter-Berry-Detail-of-Forestock-Molding.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6smZ67t)
The first task was making sure my initial simple fore stock molding was even along the ramrod channel. Many folks use jigs and guides for this kind of task but just used a gouge like Berry. My photos are after the fact so they just show the tools. I often get the task done before remembering the camera. My gouge is razor sharp and sliced through the maple very evenly like cutting butter.
(https://i.ibb.co/FHczgJS/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z6CZGby)
I smoothed the cuts with a round scraper and then cut the parallel line with a Gunline 60 degree double checkering cutter.
(https://i.ibb.co/R7sjmBn/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KmfKkLZ)
Then I widened the border line with a 90 degree Dembart bordering file and I was done. It appears that Berry just let the molding peter out at the muzzle, which I did.
(https://i.ibb.co/qpLTbmF/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L1DV49h)
(https://i.ibb.co/s1jwqHN/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4SWTpdX)
The rifle looks very sleek and the fore stock is long and slim.
dave
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Starting to wonder if Dave has a side gig as Santa and has taken off from gun building until after Christmas. ;D
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Hi Osprey,
I had to put it aside for quite a while to complete a Brown Bess and take care of non gun related business. The Bess is taking more time because I am completely restocking an old Pedersoli rather just reworking it, which was the original plan. I've posted a thread on the Bess here:
https://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/threads/turning-a-pedersoli-bess-into-a-dublin-castle-short-land-musket.138872/
dave