AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: RAT on August 30, 2021, 05:33:14 AM
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There was enough discussion on the other thread about Jim's comment about a Hawken kit that I thought I'd start a new topic.
What most people envision as a "Hawken" is typically a late period post Jacob, and even post Sam Hawken rifle. Rifles are stamped "S. Hawken" but that doesn't mean they were stocked by him. Most date to the 1860's. These are not fur trade era guns. But they tend to be the more common rifles that have survived. They are also pretty standardized in styling and parts. Therefore, this makes a good candidate for duplication as a modern kit.
Rifles stamped "J. & S. Hawken" still exist, but most exhibit post 1840 styling and parts. They would have been made before Jacob's death in 1849. These are also not fur trade era rifles. Both full stock and half stock rifles exist. One (half stock) was owned by Andrew Sublette when he moved to California. Another one (full stock) was taken to California by James Clyman. While both these men were involved in the fur trade, these rifles were not used by them during that time.
I'm only aware of 3 or 4 rifles that we can say were "probably" made in the 1830's (the fur trade era). We only know of one rifle that is authentically dated. At least, it's the only one I'm aware of. The "Atchison" rifle that used to reside on loan at the Buffalo Bill Center for the West in Cody, WY. It's dated 1836, which puts it in the fur trade era. This rifle should be familiar to people on this forum. It's mounted in fine silver and was made for a man in St. Louis who operated steam boats on the Mississippi. It can be copied for a fur trade era rifle, but not precisely. Certain assumptions would have to be made to make a normal person's rifle. Basically you'd be creating a "fantasy rifle".
And keep in mind all of these are percussion, no Hawken-made flintlock guns are known to exist today.
If someone suggested a kit for a short barreled 1760's Lancaster rifle mounted in iron hardware with a banana patchbox, I think it would be met with general disagreement with the occasional "you can make whatever you like, just don't call it historically correct".
This is the reason I'd advocate, and be interested in purchasing, a classic late period Hawken kit. People have other opinions, and I'm interested in keeping that conversation going to give Jim an idea of where the market might be.
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Here's information about the "Atchison" Hawken...
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/81/3290/silver-mounted-jacob-samuel-hawken-percussion-halfstock-rifle
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Who could resist buying a Kibler kit of the Carson Hawken is what I'd like to know. :
I re-enact the Fur Trade Era too, but that sure wouldn't stop me from buying one, or two, or three or ?
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Most don’t want a 9.5-11 pound rifle for general use. That’s the issue with developing a Hawken rifle kit that is authentic. The Kibler SMR is about 2 pounds or more lighter than the average original SMR from what I’ve handled and seen in books that share data. So, it’s a great offhand rifle most can handle and carry comfortably, and contributes to its popularity. When Hawken rifles are big bore to reduce weight I don’t find them comfortable. I’m not a wuss and I know how to hold them.
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Jim has said that a Hawken is on the short list. He wants to do a fowler first. It was answered in one of his Q/A youtube videos. I think he could corner the market on Hawken kits. I'd buy a Hawken as soon as I could. I will also buy a fowler.
Having built a late halfstock from a plank, I agree that an authentic Hawken is a beast of a rifle. I would not want to carry mine far or shoot it much. It was a bucket list rifle.
From what I can gather, the issue is that he is running full throttle as is. His is a very small shop. He does not have a big factory with a bunch of employees. He needs to make sound financial and strategic decisions. Sometimes over expanding a small business to fast goes very wrong.
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Most don’t want a 9.5-11 pound rifle for general use. That’s the issue with developing a Hawken rifle kit that is authentic. The Kibler SMR is about 2 pounds or more lighter than the average original SMR from what I’ve handled and seen in books that share data. So, it’s a great offhand rifle most can handle and carry comfortably, and contributes to its popularity. When Hawken rifles are big bore to reduce weight I don’t find them comfortable. I’m not a wuss and I know how to hold them.
Like you, I love the real Hawken for what it is. I know it's not a light weight rifle and I don't want one that sombody figured out how to take two or more pounds off of. Besides, the horse or mule was intended to bear the weight of the rifle 95% of the time. I think the problem with modern man is that you can't build upper body strength sitting in front of a computer all day. I think that's why your average "Harvey Milktoast" is satisfied with a Thompson center, but some of these guys even complain about the weight of one of those things. ::)
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Well, most fellers have never shot a real Hawken, so some THINK they want one as they like the history & nostalgia & looks of it. Heck I have always wanted one from day one in ML's. I still do want one, hanging on the wall. But to actually shoot that 11# beast, is like shouldering a boat oar with a boat anchor tied on the end of it. ;D
Few men can actually handle a real one with any accuracy, that I have seen. Most that have them are shooting 8-9# look-a-likes. That 11# rifle & the way it is ? not balanced ? Tremendous weight on your forearm & back if you shoot one very long, compared to other rifles. How many 11# Hawkens you see being shot in Territorial Matchs ? None. There is a reason for that.
It's a awesome looking rifle & I have no doubt that Jim would make a superb kit. But I think most of them will be closet ghosts if they are real Hawkens. I know this ol man could never handle one. 50 yrs ago, yes, but those are days long gone. I think Jim would find other styles would sell much better & be more appreciated. His kits are the most precise kits I have ever seen. Heck, even the shipping crate alone is awesome ! ;D
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Well personally, since you're asking, no, i have 0 interest in guns of that period.
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This one in the Smithsonian is what I would like to see in original flintlock form. It was obviously a flintlock that was converted. I saw it at the Smithsonian when I was there several years ago.
https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_414955
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I have absolutely no interest in a Kibler Hawken rifle.
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I made the very point that RAT is making here about the late period S. Hawken rifles over on the Muzzleoading Forum several days ago. As Doc White points out on his website, a properly executed Hawken rifle costs serious money to build. Herb, MtMeek, and others here that are capable of building accurate copies of any era Hawken rifle from the plank also know how much it costs to duplicate the hot charcoal bluing, the fire bluing, and especially the bone charcoal color case hardening of the parts that require it. Another issue is the time required to modify what current castings are still available into the correct shapes so that they look like accurate Hawken parts.
If Jim Kibler were to invest his time and resources into an accurate Hawken rifle kit then I agree that a fullstock percussion rifle makes the most sense for the current day hunter to own as regards to the finished weights of the rifles.
I grew up in the 1960's as a pre-teen LUSTING for a half stock Hawken rifle. Had purchased the Roubidoux plans by age 14. At age 23, while serving in the military, a fellow soldier showed me his original S. Hawken rifle that he had purchased in 1976. It was .52 caliber, and my FIRST THOUGHT upon picking it up was how heavy it was compared to my .45 caliber longrifle with a 13/16" × 40" long straight octagon barrel.
It was at that AH HA moment that I realized that a true copy of a Hawken rifle WAS NOT GOING TO SUIT my favored method of hunting. Which was still hunting the Eastern forests of the United States.
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The Hawken shop kit will work well for those who want such a rifle. I think a Kibler quality kit for an English Sporting or target
rifle would be well received
Bob Roller
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That original .52 caliber rifle weighed nearly 12 pounds.
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Zero interest on my part. Can't wait for the smoothbore, though ! :)
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I am sure if Jim made it, it would be first class in quality. But, I also agree with those posters who state later Hawkens are heavy, hard to handle and were not really fur trade era guns. More likely built for the California gold rush traveler or buffalo hunter who shot them off of cross sticks. I have built several over the years but don't like shooting them. I would have no interest, mainly as I don't enjoy building kits but also because a Hawken, while iconic, is not that useful of a gun. I know Jim has to build what the market demands to keep his business going but wouldn't it be cool if he could do limited runs of more esoteric guns? Jaegers, English Sporting guns, French fusils or, dare I say it, a Catalan miquelet?
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Zero interest on my part. Can't wait for the smoothbore, though ! :)
No more smoothbores for you Bob! Unless shooting many will cause you to lose focus or familiarity and shoot wild now and then. ;D
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Zero interest on my part. Can't wait for the smoothbore, though ! :)
My thoughts exactly, Bob.
Don Richards
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I don't see a big enough market for a Hawken kit. Several reasons. As stated earlier, it is a big heavy rifle. We are an aging demographic and most of us are selling or trading off our heavy large caliber rifles for smaller lighter guns. Second, the majority of muzzleloading interest lies in the mid to late 18th century and early 19th century flintlock era, not the percussion era. A Hawken rifle, like a Jaeger rifle, has a dedicated following. Unfortunately, this following is too small for a business to invest the time, money and tooling to make it a viable investment, just as making left handed locks is not a sound business investment.
David
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I agree with mr. Rase. also, even the people who would want a Hawken want something different flint,percussion,full stock,half stock,40cal.,58cal.gesso, which one you going to try and market?
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I always thought there was something wrong with me, but now I see I’m not alone. From day one I never had an interest in owning a Hawken replica. I used to listen to perfectly sane people moon over these incredibly plain, and obnoxiously heavy half stocked rifles with usually very plain wood, and some of the poorest finishes I’ve ever seen on an antique gun, and wonder what I was missing.
In my opinion they are (with a very few glaring exceptions) the sledgehammer of the muzzleloading world. Designed to take endless abuse, and continue to function long after they shouldn’t. But a thing of beauty they are not, at least to me.
Hungry Horse
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All right all right, Yes they are heavy, but I am 68 and still hunt the hills and timber here with my Hawken or the Dimick. Geeze some of you city softies need to get some exercise. A hollow rib, tapered barrel, 30" barrel or so should manageable for most "hunters", for target work...who cares about the weight?
kw
Montana
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Exactly HH,but they were made sturdy for a reason. Would anyone want to be 400 miles from civilization,surrounded by grizzly bears, mountain lions and Indians with a daisy BB gun with the wrist broke. No thanks
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Just so you all know, I am not anti-Hawken. My earlier comments are solely based from a business standpoint. Here is a photo of mine. I have owned this one for over 20 years.
(https://i.ibb.co/jyXGFg3/IMG-6356.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WkJF1gB)
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I like Hawken rifles to a point and have built several some were VERY heavy. I've also owned a couple by top makers of today. Here comes the "to a point" part. Every time someone offered me a nickel more than I paid for it I sold it.
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My Bergmann Plains rifle in .54 caliber with a tapered barrel made by B. Hoyt weighs 11+ pounds.
I love the gun but I would not commission another one.
I would be interested in one if it weighed about 9 pounds, definitely under 10 pounds. If Jim Kibler could do that, and I'm sure it is possible, I'm in. (Thinking a 30 - 31" barrel that is 1" at the breech tapered to 7/8" at the muzzle in .54 caliber 1:48" twist, maybe a .58 caliber.)
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Mine came out 11#, 54 cal.
(https://i.ibb.co/T2RFx0X/DSCN9990-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YQ8qFd9)
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I'm 75 and have no difficulty carrying either Hawken. I'd really like to see Jim make an early full stock Hawken flintlock. With the large bowed English style trigger guard instead of the flat to the wrist one. Dan
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Accurate copies of average, if there ever was such a thing, Hawken rifles, are not going to sell well. In my opinion. Because, just like Hungry Horse said, they are as plain as mud, in addition to being poorly balanced for offhand shooting.
Plain maple & walnut, with ZERO figure, stained dark, and with a durable varnish finish that many suspect was also stained dark. The absolute anthesis of fancy. Which is exactly what most modern shooters want to spend money on, not the fine industrial details that made the Hawken so sturdy. As well as being one of the first American rifles to be capable of shooting heavy powder charges that could reach out to 200 yards to kill a Blackfoot brave intent on taking your hair.
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What I would like to see Mr. Kibler make is a Lancaster style flintlock with a swamped 42 inch barrel in .50 caliber few pounds lighter than the Colonial.
Bob
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All right all right, Yes they are heavy, but I am 68 and still hunt the hills and timber here with my Hawken or the Dimick. Geeze some of you city softies need to get some exercise. A hollow rib, tapered barrel, 30" barrel or so should manageable for most "hunters", for target work...who cares about the weight?
kw
Montana
Amen Brother, I sure hope Jim isn't listening to all of these citified and sissified softies and self appointed marketing geniuses. To me it's an honor to carry and shoot something that both Bridger and Carson used. ;)
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To each his own, but I wouldn't be a buyer for a Hawken whether it be half or full stock.
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As long as we are brain storming, how about a John Armstrong? IF you want to do one right you need to make most of the lock. The correct nose caps can not be bought. He was among the very best. His rifle were beautiful and shootable. Having a correct Armstrong flintlock ca 1820 to carve and decorate would get me excited.
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To the day I die, I will always feel fondly towards the rifle's built by Sam & Jake Hawken. Pretty, elegant like a good longrifle? Absolutely not. But, there is an industrial kind of raw beauty to what the brothers achieved in an era prior to mass production.
But, at 67 years old, with serious osteoarthritis in both shoulders that is also starting to present itself in other joints; I have to be realistic. Spending money on any kind of heavy rifle, that has stout recoil, is not in my body's best long term interests.
So, as much as I still have a piece of that teenage lust for a Hawken (the devil on the left shoulder), my common sense (the angel on the right shoulder) says no.
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I'm also probably a "no" vote. I like the way that they look well enough and I like the romantic notion that these were the guns of the mountain men, but like many/most of you, I find them to be too heavy to wish to tout around very much and I just don't know that I'd keep one (I'd probably buy the kit, build it and sell it, just to say that I did).
I'm also a fan of the more slender and lighter Golden age rifles and would be OK with a late Lancaster, Lehigh, Reading, etc. etc. at around 7-7.5 pounds.
Someone else mentioned an English sporting rifle and I think that might be kind of neat too, although I greatly prefer flintlock to percussion and would hope that's the way it would go.
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If Jim Kibler decides to build a Hawken kit they will sell just because he built the kit his reputation is well known in the ML community. Some love them and many hate them, some say they are ugly some say classic but Hawken rifles brings with it a lot of attention. The Bug in my opinion is an ugly car but Volkswagen built and sold millions of them despite what I thought. Whatever Kibler decides to build he will have plenty of customers.
Rob
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A flintlock, halfstock, pistol grip, English Sporting Rifle kit with a tapered barrel that was caliber specific (not one size fits all), in calibers from .40 caliber up to .66 caliber would sell very well. Especially, if it could be ordered without the butt plate inletted for those that might be recoil sensitive. Who for any number of reasons might want to have a modern recoil pad installed that mimics the leather-covered pads of the past.
I would love to see a kit like that.
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To me a Hawkins has nothing to do with the American longrifle.
Which this site is named for.
But practical hunting guns they are without a doubt.
When I went out West hunting a few years ago. I was going to take my 54. Lancaster . With a 46 inch Getzs barrel. But the thought of having to smack a bear in the head of need be. I figured my make believe Hawkins was the better choise. Work well it did..
Oldtravler
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I too had the Hawken bug and always wanted one. Sold it 6 months after having it built. Didn't like the percussion or the patent breech. I would however be interested if he were to build something like a J Henry Lancaster pattern trade rifle in flintlock or something on that order. It might even be more appropriate for the fur trade era. I am sure whatever Mr. Kibler does will be high quality and historically correct.
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interesting thread. I built several Hawkens back in the mid-1970s. Solid shooting rifles. I think a Kibler Hawken might be tempting.
SMR bear rifles tend to be big and heavy. To those who think the Kibler Whitson-based SMR is too light, you need to look at an original Whitson.
And to those waiting on smoothbores, just look up at the forum title in the banner. I have the same opinion of smoothbores as Nathaniel Bumppo. But, to each his own.
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I too had the Hawken bug and always wanted one. Sold it 6 months after having it built. Didn't like the percussion or the patent breech. I would however be interested if he were to build something like a J Henry Lancaster pattern trade rifle in flintlock or something on that order. It might even be more appropriate for the fur trade era. I am sure whatever Mr. Kibler does will be high quality and historically correct.
You can put me down for a Hawken and a J. Henry. ;D
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Wow! Two pages of comments in one day! We're on a roll!
I too would be interested in an English sporting rifle, if that was the way he was going. I'm not sure it would have as much acceptance with the general public as some on here might believe, but that's Jim's call.
A kit for an English double percussion shotgun would get a lot of attention. But it seems a ton more difficult to pull off.
I wouldn't mind a good copy of an 1840's percussion full stock. These are around for study to make a good copy. With a 38" long barrel, 1", in .54 cal make's it a reasonable weight. It's still not a fur trade era gun, but most event authorities would probably let it pass.
Just to be clear, I've only owned 2 percussion rifles in the last 32 years. All the rest have been flint, so I'm not pushing percussion because I'm a percussion guy. I just want an authentic copy, and that means copying an original.
The "Smithsonian" Hawken is stamped "S. Hawken", which means it was made after Jacob's death in 1849. So, it's not a fur trade era gun. I've only seen photos, I never examined the rifle in person. Someone recently gave me a copy of the December 1977 article from The Buckskin Report about this rifle. The article raises questions about it being originally made as flint. Not having seen the gun, I won't debate that. In any case, it's not an 1820's era gun.
With North Star West now gone, I'd like to see a good NW trade gun kit. With both 42" and 36" barrel lengths offered.
Not ANOTHER Lancaster kit... please. 18th century stuff is everywhere... but not much 19th century stuff... the market needs a little variety.
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A J. J. Henry English pattern or new English pattern would be great! The Rifle Shoppe offers these as kits, but I'm still waiting on a tang I ordered from them in January.
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Don’t forget the J.J.Henry steel mounted rifle.
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Obviously the Montana contingency here has never hunted the Pacific coastal range. Jed Smith said it was the toughest most inhospitable range he had ever encountered. I would have to agree. Oh, and by the way California A zone season is in August, and September, when its likely to be a hundred degrees or better. And, the bucks won’t be stupefied with the rut.
Oh, I don’t hunt anymore, because I wore my knees out hiking this rugged country for the best part of sixty years.
So, I don’t need a twelve pound rifle, or a .54 caliber either, ya see I shoot em’ in the end with the head on it.
Hungry Horse
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There are lots of ways to go about getting a Hawken. As a couple of people mentioned a couple of replies above mine, one of the J.J. Henry's would be a nice option and those were fur trade era, as were some English imports, and no one, to my knowledge, even offers parts to make those unless you want to wait a few years to get them.
And I'm anxiously awaiting the Kibler fowler when it comes out. I rather like smoothbores AND rifles.
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Unfortunately there are no documented original J. J. Henry steel mounted rifles in existence. According to Hanson in Encyclopedia of the Fur Trade Vol 1-Firearms of the Fur Trade, The AFC ordered just 70 total. The AFC first order of 10 rifles was in 1831. He states that the one rifle in the Smithsonian thought to be an original is marked "ES" on the barrel. It's only supposition that this was in any way connected to J. J. Henry.
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The evolution of the more than 50 Hawken rifles I have built, and what I can still shoot at age 88 1/2, might be of interest.
In April 2004 this was a .54 Bridger-style being built from a barrel-inletted blank. It weighed 9 lbs 7 oz, and I shot it a few thousand times. It finally was too heavy for me.
(https://i.ibb.co/qd7TDq5/rsmith54.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vHV0cyY)
I engraved the lock after an original.
(https://i.ibb.co/2sv4F80/smithhaw.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z7Xvm8W)
Me with it in 2014.
(https://i.ibb.co/10z6Yxm/DSC02097.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BfnNHRC)
November 2007, a .58 fullstocked flint rifle. 9 pounds 6 ounces. Sold it to a friend.
(https://i.ibb.co/ZdHn60N/58-flint-Hawken-floor.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xhmpSN3)
November 2011. Another ,58 full stock flinter. Here I fell on a rock while elk hunting. Repaired it. Taylor bought it for Hatchet Jack, who by June of this year had put over 13,000 rounds through it. Nine pounds seven ounces.
(https://i.ibb.co/KzB668q/Broken-58-Toe.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6JGYYqP)
September 2014. A Hawken-inspired .58 flint Plains rifle. Good for hunting, but too heavy for shooting matches.
(https://i.ibb.co/x5VKNdC/Herb-Carl-MDeer.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5cqXPwM)
October 2015. Me at age 82 hunting elk with my first Bridger copy. .54 caliber. Too heavy now for match shooting , I gave it to a nephew.
(https://i.ibb.co/FgpkgVD/Herb-Hunt-Elk-Bridger.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Rz8GzyD)
I'll break this off and come back in a bit.
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At age 84 I wanted a lighter antelope rifle. This is a Hawken-inspired rifle, built with a .50 caliber 32" swamped Rice Jaeger barrel, seven pounds 12 ounces.
(https://i.ibb.co/Q8ZmR7x/Herb-Close.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0BkJSpz)
The evolution- A very close copy of the Bridger Hawken, 11 pounds 4 ounces. Next, my first Bridger copy with a 32 inch GRRW barrel, what I had. 10 pounds 14 ounces. I shot it a few thousand times, then gave it to a nephew. A Carson copy with a special order Pecatonica stock, 15/16 x 31 1/8" barrel, about 8 pounds 12 ounces. Last, a Carson copy with a 15/16 x 31 1/8" I built from a blank, eight pounds 14 ounces.
(https://i.ibb.co/2MG41Kt/Four-2-Bridgers-2-Carsons-GOOD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DM02HKC)
March 2021 Me shooting that Pecatonica stocked .54 Hawken at age 88. Won that shoot, too.
(https://i.ibb.co/6szKwSP/DSC07484.jpg) (https://ibb.co/88qysw5)
The Carson built from a blank with a 15/16 x 31 1/8" barrel. This is a really good hunting rifle, and a size and weight that I can shoot at age 88. I think most people could shoot this sized rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/g6MCY62/Gibbs-Carson-full.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PtZ8ktL)
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This one in the Smithsonian is what I would like to see in original flintlock form. It was obviously a flintlock that was converted. I saw it at the Smithsonian when I was there several years ago.
https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_414955
The Smithsonian Hawken has a flintlock converted to percussion, but other than the lock, there is zero evidence that the rifle was flint. The lock panel isn’t notched for the cock to stop on the lock plate. The breach is a percussion bolster. It’s much more likely Sam used an old flintlock converted to percussion on a built to be percussion full stock, than that the rifle was restocked, rebreached and the lock was reused.
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I would commit to a 12-bore fowler from Jim Kibler. Even pay up front right now if he makes it convertible to a cane. Hard to get around without my walking stick any more, and it would be lovely if a duck or turkey gun could be converted!
Going to be 76 in a bit more than 4 weeks, might as well treat myself to a nice present.
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Herb, great set of posts on the Hawken! Thanks!
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I built my first Hawken from a kit back in the late 70's and I didn't build another one for nearly 40 years. I was inspired to build my next Hawken by Herb. It was a full stock flint. The one I am finishing now is a full stock .54 percussion. My next build will be a Hawken too. Thanks Herb for all the detailed posts, pictures, and the great hunting pictures and stories.
Rob
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I have no need for a Hawken, but I would like to see the SMR offered in percussion like the Whitson shown on his website that Jim’s used for inspiration for his SMR.
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I'd be one of the first to sign up for a Kibler SMR with a percussion lock. Come on Jim, you can make a quality percussion lock to fit your SMR.
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I have seen and held a handful of “real Hawkens”. A couple full stocks and a few halfstocks. Only one was the “11# beast” described by some here. The rest were all around 8-9# and balanced wonderfully. I think a late halfstock percussion Hawken would be a great seller. People like these as hunting guns. The few custom Hawken builders out there seem to keep a long waiting list and places like track of the wolf are consistently sold out of Hawken componenets. I vote for a Kibler Hawken kit to recreate something like the Robideaux Hawken.
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Kibler's Colonial rifle isn't branded as any one makers work. A Hawken's needn't be an exact copy of one rifle, if he offered a rifle of this type I would buy it although my hiking over the mountains is VERY limited these days. I would still like to have a quality mountain rifle.
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No need for a Hawken, but I would like to see the SMR offered in percussion like the Whitson shown on his website that Jim’s used for inspiration for his SMR.
I'm sorry, but any bumpkin (or most bumpkins) could convert one of Jim's fine SMR's to percussion. So you're OK with cutting others out of having a halfstock Hawken just to have Mr. Kibler change out a lock for you? :o ??? :-\
Bumpkin? If it’s as simple as you say then adding it as an option shouldn’t interfere with a Hawken kit!
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Personally not interested in one. I find older guns more interesting and appealing. I do enjoy Herb's love for recreating authentic Hawken-style guns. He has taught me much about them, as did Mr. House's video on making them, but I don't plan to make or purchase any.
But because of their undying popularity I could see how Jim might do well to offer such.
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Hopefully one day I will get to meet Mr. Kibler. I have great admiration for his tooling prowess and his business acumen. However I doubt seriously that I would ever buy one of his kits. I have inspected a couple of his kits before they were assembled. They are really fantastic kits. They are so well engineered that a person would have to be a total dunce to screw them up.
That is the main reason I would never buy one. I like the challenge of building from a stock blank. I like to build guns not assemble them.
If there is a type of rifle I want I will just build it and not wait for some one to come up with a kit.
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If you want a Hawken go to Don Stith. He has the best Hawken kits out there. Doesn't the HAWKEN SHOP sell Hawken kits as well? I would assume so since they freakin call it THE HAWKEN SHOP..... ::)
I'll not assume to tell Kibler what to make, I'll leave that up to him.
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If you want a Hawken go to Don Stith. He has the best Hawken kits out there. Doesn't the HAWKEN SHOP sell Hawken kits as well? I would assume so since they freakin call it THE HAWKEN SHOP..... ::)
I'll not assume to tell Kibler what to make, I'll leave that up to him.
But Mike, if Jim does a Hawken kit, it would be another opportunity to hold classes on how to put one together and finish it.
Regarding the popularity of Kibler kits, with current interest outpacing fine kits by others, I think they may appeal to 2 main groups. One, someone who wants a high quality gun that will rival some custom guns at a fraction of the cost. Two, someone who wants to feel they built a gun but lacks experience and tools to tackle a fine, but not CNC’d kit, let alone a scratch build. Obviously there are going to be a lot more folks who don’t have the confidence or experience to do a scratch build for what they want or a more challenging kit. At ALR some of us “in the bubble of hobby builders” can start to think we are mainstream.
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Zero interest on my part. Can't wait for the smoothbore, though ! :)
Ditto.
Ez
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If I was building kits to sell to the public I would consider having a suitable number of percussion options.
Like it or not, there are more percussion shooters then flint. This forum is biased towards flintlocks, nothing wrong with that.
Look at the demand for the TC Hawken or GPR. Now who knows how many of those same people will spend more money for a higher quality rifle. Some will without a doubt.
It all depends on what they want as a business model.
In my company I made the choice to focus on a niche market. I could easily expand my offerings into a broader aspect and have more work. However I enjoy the niche that I operate in and I have plenty of work.
My first build was a Hawken kit from TOW. It is a heavy gun, and I enjoy shooting it and it shoots very well. It is going to F'ship with me in a couple of weeks.
Fleener
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No need for a Hawken, but I would like to see the SMR offered in percussion like the Whitson shown on his website that Jim’s used for inspiration for his SMR.
I'm sorry, but any bumpkin (or most bumpkins) could convert one of Jim's fine SMR's to percussion. So you're OK with cutting others out of having a halfstock Hawken just to have Mr. Kibler change out a lock for you? :o ??? :-\
Bumpkin? If it’s as simple as you say then adding it as an option shouldn’t interfere with a Hawken kit!
L,
I regret calling you a bumpkin. I get cranky and say stupid things when when I've had too much coffee. :o
No problem, we all have those moments. I realize most on here are builders, but some of us, like me, are not. I wish I had the skills to build a rifle from a blank, but I’m not kidding myself, I don’t. I guess it’s a matter of paying for what you want. For me that’s a percussion SMR, which seems reasonable from my standpoint, but then again may be totally unreasonable to Jim Kibler as it seems he is having no problem selling the SMR kit as it is. Guess what’s reasonable to one is unreasonable to another.
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It certainly sounds reasonable, maybe for some reason it's just not cost effective for him right now. "Too many irons in the fire" perhaps? :-\
Maybe he'll get on here and tell us why.
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If you want a Hawken go to Don Stith. He has the best Hawken kits out there. Doesn't the HAWKEN SHOP sell Hawken kits as well? I would assume so since they freakin call it THE HAWKEN SHOP..... ::)
I'll not assume to tell Kibler what to make, I'll leave that up to him.
But Mike, if Jim does a Hawken kit, it would be another opportunity to hold classes on how to put one together and finish it.
Regarding the popularity of Kibler kits, with current interest outpacing fine kits by others, I think they may appeal to 2 main groups. One, someone who wants a high quality gun that will rival some custom guns at a fraction of the cost. Two, someone who wants to feel they built a gun but lacks experience and tools to tackle a fine, but not CNC’d kit, let alone a scratch build. Obviously there are going to be a lot more folks who don’t have the confidence or experience to do a scratch build for what they want or a more challenging kit. At ALR some of us “in the bubble of hobby builders” can start to think we are mainstream.
Not me, maybe you could teach that one. ;)
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If I was building kits to sell to the public I would consider having a suitable number of percussion options.
Like it or not, there are more percussion shooters then flint. This forum is biased towards flintlocks, nothing wrong with that.
Look at the demand for the TC Hawken or GPR. Now who knows how many of those same people will spend more money for a higher quality rifle. Some will without a doubt.
It all depends on what they want as a business model.
In my company I made the choice to focus on a niche market. I could easily expand my offerings into a broader aspect and have more work. However I enjoy the niche that I operate in and I have plenty of work.
My first build was a Hawken kit from TOW. It is a heavy gun, and I enjoy shooting it and it shoots very well. It is going to F'ship with me in a couple of weeks.
Fleener
Two years ago I reduced my niche in muzzle loading when I stopped making any kind of locks.The triggers are all I will do now and do them only to have "something"to do and for the few dollars they bring.
I started with a caplock in 1951 and built my first muzzle loader in 1957.I was well aware of flint locks but nobody had one
and after several years I did try making locks.They were not a good quality lock but they would fire a cap and were copied from al lock made by P.I Spence in Marietta,Ohio.Mr.Spence was 97 and encouraged me to copy his design and later I was able to make locks of my own design with "V"springs.
My inspiration in print was Major Ned Roberts and the caplock rifles he wrote about in his book called "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle" and I have had it for decades and at one time it was owned by E.M.Farris,an original founder of the NMLRA in 1933.There was NO interest at all in flintlocks until Chet Shoults offers one that worked but at $35 it was expensive so few were sold.ONE local man,Toby Brown had an original flint lock and Bill Large rerifled it and it was used in competition.
There was a noticeable lag in ignition due to the lack of a proper vent which in this case was a hole thru the barrel with no
fast flash liner. The flash was there but lost at the vent and was close to fuse in performance or seemed like it.
My preference today is still the caplock rifle of the American Northeast and the even finer rifles from the British top makers and they were the inspiration to at least try to make upgraded lock mechanisms along the ideas of the Brits and the last Hawken lock I made in 2019 had an English style mechanism with the bridle on three posts and the sear on a precisely fit pin.
I admire Herb who is closer to 90 by 3 years than I am and still making complete rifles that are highly thought of for good reasons that need no explanation from me.
OK, My rant for 31 August 2021 is over.
Bob Roller
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Thanks, Heinz and Borderdogs and Bob. Here is a better picture of that antelope buck and rifle.
(https://i.ibb.co/6XQ40pz/50-Hawken-Buck-left-side.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XYHzxd1)
Here I am at age 85 with that 15/16" .54 H&H barreled Carson Hawken and a mule deer I shot off-hand at 93 yards (Lasered after the shot by a friend). Now I can hardly lift that 11 pound Bridger rifle onto my bench, but I can still shoot this rifle in matches.
(https://i.ibb.co/YtQhqfY/Diamond-Mtn-mule-deer-my-54-HH-Hawken.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p3wd94G)
The top rifle is the Mule Deer rifle. It is exact to all Carson Hawken dimensions except for the 15/16 barrel instead of 1 1/16 across the flats. The 13 1/4" length of pull on all three rifles is important. The middle is another Carson copy with a one-inch barrel. Bottom is my first Bridger copy, correct in all dimensions except for a two-inch shorter barrel.
(https://i.ibb.co/XW0JLXg/Carsons-Bridger-Hawkens.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x295Lh0)
My lighter Carson copy is the most useful hunting and target rifle for me of the maybe 100 or so I have built, including 6 or 10 eastern longrifle schools. LONG is the weight problem, or muscle. Did I mention I have a torn right rotator cuff? If you want to build a lighter Hawken see my description of this rifle here:
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=51055.msg506848#m
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We are all excited about the precision and quality of Jim's kits, and have visions in our heads of rifles we would like to own, made from his great kits. In the late 70's and early 80's, I built nearly 300 Hawken rifles for the late Don Robinson at his shop here in Prince George. Even with a Solstrom 12 spindle carver it took a week to build a Hawken rifle that sold in those days for about $700. There was not enough profit in this venture, and the shop, at least the muzzleloading rifle end, eventually closed.
The cost of tooling to build an authentic Hawken rifle of the quality of his other two offerings, would be staggering. Even so, I would welcome a Hawken rifle kit from Jim. The Hawken rifle is on even par with the Jaeger and the English Sporting rifle, as the finest hunting style rifle a person can carry. And they possess a charm, grace and utility that is hard to deny.
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If Mr. Kibler ends up making this style of rifle he should just call it a "Plains" rifle since he has a "Colonial" and the "Southern Mountain".
On another note my hat is off to Herb and Mr. Roller!
Bob
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This one in the Smithsonian is what I would like to see in original flintlock form. It was obviously a flintlock that was converted. I saw it at the Smithsonian when I was there several years ago.
https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_414955
The Smithsonian Hawken has a flintlock converted to percussion, but other than the lock, there is zero evidence that the rifle was flint. The lock panel isn’t notched for the cock to stop on the lock plate. The breach is a percussion bolster. It’s much more likely Sam used an old flintlock converted to percussion on a built to be percussion full stock, than that the rifle was restocked, rebreached and the lock was reused.
If Sam Hawken built that rifle as a percussion piece and converted the lock, he was definitely having an off day. It looks like the job was done by a drunken chimpanzee using a hacksaw and some dynamite. One thing to note is the lock says S. Hawken, and if it truly is an early rifle, it strikes me that it should be J &S Hawken. Just a thought....
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I'd be up for an SMR percussion, absolutely! Even one that looks like a flint conversion. That could be cool. But late Hawken or similar? Nope. I'd have no interest in shooting such a beast, so no interest in building one either. I've had such in my hands once. That's why I know I have no interest. Now if I needed a club...
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This one in the Smithsonian is what I would like to see in original flintlock form. It was obviously a flintlock that was converted. I saw it at the Smithsonian when I was there several years ago.
https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_414955
The Smithsonian Hawken has a flintlock converted to percussion, but other than the lock, there is zero evidence that the rifle was flint. The lock panel isn’t notched for the cock to stop on the lock plate. The breach is a percussion bolster. It’s much more likely Sam used an old flintlock converted to percussion on a built to be percussion full stock, than that the rifle was restocked, rebreached and the lock was reused.
If Sam Hawken built that rifle as a percussion piece and converted the lock, he was definitely having an off day. It looks like the job was done by a drunken chimpanzee using a hacksaw and some dynamite. One thing to note is the lock says S. Hawken, and if it truly is an early rifle, it strikes me that it should be J &S Hawken. Just a thought....
Sam built rifles before he went to St. Louis. The lock could have been a recycled lock from earlier, a well known practice in those days. During the height of the original Hawken shop days, they would use any locks they could get their hands on. Isn't there another Hawken besides that one that has a converted lock with the regular percussion bolster.
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Clark, I think there is a full stock at Center of the West museum with a flintlock plate and a percussion bolster.
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I examined that rifle in Cody this April. It's not a Hawken. The rifle was made by Jacob Fordney. The top barrel flat shows evidence of peening which was then overstamped with the Hawken stamp.
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This one in the Smithsonian is what I would like to see in original flintlock form. It was obviously a flintlock that was converted. I saw it at the Smithsonian when I was there several years ago.
https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_414955
The Smithsonian Hawken has a flintlock converted to percussion, but other than the lock, there is zero evidence that the rifle was flint. The lock panel isn’t notched for the cock to stop on the lock plate. The breach is a percussion bolster. It’s much more likely Sam used an old flintlock converted to percussion on a built to be percussion full stock, than that the rifle was restocked, rebreached and the lock was reused.
If Sam Hawken built that rifle as a percussion piece and converted the lock, he was definitely having an off day. It looks like the job was done by a drunken chimpanzee using a hacksaw and some dynamite. One thing to note is the lock says S. Hawken, and if it truly is an early rifle, it strikes me that it should be J &S Hawken. Just a thought....
Sam built rifles before he went to St. Louis. The lock could have been a recycled lock from earlier, a well known practice in those days. During the height of the original Hawken shop days, they would use any locks they could get their hands on. Isn't there another Hawken besides that one that has a converted lock with the regular percussion bolster.
Sam did build rifles before he partnered with Jake, but he didn't build what we think of as a Hawken rifle. And he didn't perform sloppy work like that.
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Well, this one has certainly generated some chatter. My thoughts on desirability of a half stock percussion later period Hawken kit. I think there are a few potential pluses in pursuing that, although some have said they have no desire for such a kit, or question the market for it. I think the market would not be limited to the hard-core flintlock shooter necessarily (although this is an iconic gun that I and many in this group would love to own). I think there is a secondary (and bigger) market among the in-line hunting crowd that wants to take a step back toward tradition, but doesn’t want to jump straight to a flintlock. This could be marketed as a hunters gun in that case.
If this gun could be made with the traditional Hawken look, but also with a mind toward weight reduction for hunters - with a tapered barrel, and possibly a hollow under rib, I think there would be an appeal there. Especially among muzzle loading hunters or those that currently only own an inline. This would also give Kibler a use for shorter pieces of wood that he probably has on hand from cutting up boards into stock blanks. My two cents.
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As much as I like Mr. Kibler's work, I have no use for a Hawken of any kind. Living out here in the Pacific NW you see all sorts of them and I have owned several. Now that I am older and hopefully smarter I have no use for these poorly balanced way too heavy clubs. I'll stick with the rifles I have but could be talked into the fowler.
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A poorly balanced Hawken is one that is not built correctly. Go back and review Herb's posts. Most modern Hawken repros have pulls that are 1/2 inch to an inch too long combined with a barrel that is too long. And remember they are horseback guns. Get up on a horse for two or three hundred miles with a well-balanced 44 inch barreled Kentucky rifle and you will be looking for a Hawken or a hacksaw.
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I examined that rifle in Cody this April. It's not a Hawken. The rifle was made by Jacob Fordney. The top barrel flat shows evidence of peening which was then overstamped with the Hawken stamp.
I can only go on what the display card said, it was in a case. Did you tell them it wasn’t a Hawken? What was their response to your discovery? Is it still displayed as a Hawken?
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Yes, the acting curator has my opinions on the rifle. The rifle was removed from the case and we were able to examine it, take photos, and take measurements. I don't have these yet. I was with a friend of mine, he still has this information and photos. I can't share any photos when I get them. There's a possibility they may be published in the future. Stay tuned.
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That’s strange, I couldn’t even get them to straighten out their pictures of the Hawken rifles when they were all mixed up online. How did you determine it was a Fordney?
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First, it simply doesn't LOOK like a Hawken product.
If you google Jacob Fordney rifle, you'll find several pictures of museum owned rifles. Compare them to the one at Cody. Especially the patchbox. It's pretty obvious. Other smaller details are also the same.
Also, Hanson published information about Fordney Indian trade rifles purchased by the government to distribute (1838), but never did. Later, they were converted to percussion by Henry Leman (in 1861). They were apparently given to pro-union Indians recruited in Missouri and Arkansas in 1862. See MFT Quarterly Winter 2010. I'm not saying this is one of those government purchased rifles (only 250 were purchased from Fordney).
Fordney also supplied rifles to the AFC, some with single triggers and some with double set triggers. See The Encyclopedia of the Fur Trade, Vol 1, Firearms of the Fur Trade.
I have more information, but I think we're getting a little too much off-topic, so I'll stop there.
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I don’t think we’re too far off subject. We wouldn’t want mr. Kibler to copy a J. Fordney when he was told it’s a Hawken.
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My first suggestion was about creating an easy-to-assemble kit that doesn't require a shop and all the tools required for non-CNC type kits. My first rifle build was just such a kit. I assembled it on my kitchen table in an apartment. It wasn't fun, and the result wasn't as good as I would have wanted. That experience, and feedback I've gotten from people who have built Kibler kits, tells me his kits fill a niche for these type of folks.
The more new people we can bring into muzzleloading the better off we'll all be. Otherwise it dies. Earlier this year I bought several Kibler locks. I was very impressed with their quality. When speaking with Katherine, she was telling me about all the new people that were ordering kits from them. These are people who have never fired a muzzleloader, are not reenactors, and in many cases have never fired a modern firearm. Let's make them feel welcome.
I was thinking of something that appeals to a wider audience. Can be assembled by new folks with less experience and with fewer tools. And would appeal to people who want to move into something traditional, but are not reenactors. Not everyone who buys a Sharps rifle dresses up like Matthew Quigley. Everything offered in kit form seems to be for folks east of the Mississippi. People on the west bank have more square miles of this country, but seem to always be forgotten.
Before you get your panties all twisted about that comment, think about this. I had a conversation with my niece last week. She lives in Connecticut. She was complaining about how small Rhode Island was. Really? Connecticut is so much bigger? Connecticut fits between Bozeman and Billings... the long way. God I LOVE the west. Just saying.
IF a kit was offered with the goal of satisfying those who reenact the west, and want to be authentic, I'd suggest a Lancaster trade rifle (the most common rendezvous rifle) or the J. J. Henry English or new English trade rifles (the 2nd most common rifles). These, of course, would be flint.
Once again, that doesn't add to the diversity of kit offerings. Most are already flint. Few are offered in percussion.
With that, I'll let this thread fade without any more comments from me. It had a lot of legs, more than I expected when I started it. And boy... do people really HATE Hawken rifles!
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Out of nearly 400 guns I have made I have shipped maybe 5 west of the Mississippi.
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RAT, nice explanation. I would agree. And I love good Hawkens
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I'm not going to add my 2 cents as to what Mr. Kibler should do, that is his business. My reply is in response to the last few posts from RAT and Mr. Brooks. I live on the west coast, and am both relatively young and relatively new to this hobby. I am 40 yrs old and got into this about 2 years ago. A Hawken rifle is what lured me into the world of black powder. Living in the Cascade mountains lured me to the "mountain man guns". Google led me to a "Hawken kit" that turns out was nothing like a Hawken rifle. That led me to a kit from the Hawken Shop which is about 30 minutes from my house. Building that kit made me learn a lot of skills and led to less finished kits, and ultimately to building from a plank. I suspect that those on the west coast, who do not have a connection to the earlier rifles as our history doesn't go back that far, are more inclined toward the mountain man and cowboy era. On the rare occasion anyone gets to go into my gun safe, the Henry and Winchester rifles are the main attraction not the front stuffers. Just an observation on my part that maybe a Hawken rifle draws more interest toward this hobby from the west side of the big river.
Jon
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One thing that might appeal to a larger audience is a percussion version of the SMR. It could be done without additional CNC programming by offering a conversion of the flint plate that used a drum. A new hammer would be needed of course. ....I know orders are backed up already. I'd buy one on general principle.
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As for the percussion SMR,I would rather see a new plate machined out that would use the flint internals instead of butchering a new flintlock.
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That is what I meant. Either lop of the pan of an existing plate or reprogram the mill to make it look like a conversion of a flintlock. Whatever is easier. The holes for the flint parts could remain. A hammer with a 1.6" swing fits.
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Its funny how geography shapes perspective. If you go to a shoot near me(west of big muddy)its 90% Hawken or Hawken wanna be guns, 5% trade rifle and 5% longrifle. If you ask 10 non muzzleloading gun people to name a famous period maker of muzzleloaders I bet you will get 8 people saying Hawken and two people saying Thompson Center. If I set a pretty average Hawken on a rack here next to a Herschel House poor boy nobody will even look at the longrifle. If you went to a western rendezvous of the American Mountain Men you will see a couple J Henrys and Lancasters amongst the old grey beards and a bunch of Hawkens. The complete opposite seemed to be true when I lived on the east coast. Vive la difference but I still want a Kibler hawken Kit...actually I want 5 of them from .45-.62cal.
Z
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Any one who has ever thrown up an original Hawken rifle to his/her shoulder knows how well they balance and feel !!!!!
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Someone mentioned the steel mounted J. Henry that Charles Hansen has noted in several publications as it being the missing steel mounted trade rifle . This rifle is NOT a J. Henry rifle . The only part on that rifle that is marked J. Henry is the lock . the rifle in my humble opinion is a North Carolina rifle and the rifle is maker marked on top of the barrel . It is also a small caliber rifle and not a large caliber rifle as we are led to believe. There is however the real steel mounted J. Henry rifle in a private collection . I'm not at liberty to say who has this rifle but one does exist !
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Any one who has ever thrown up an original Hawken rifle to his/her shoulder knows how well they balance and feel !!!!!
I have handled and fired the Hoffman&Campbell rifle credited to J&S Hawken and carried by Francis Parkman in 1847 and it had a 42"barrel and weighed 15 pounds and it wasn't hard to handle.I was about 35 then and now at 85 I don't think I could handle it to shoot standing.The accurate copies made by Tom Dawson of the later Hawken rifles handled well and I think even now I can shoot one.
Bob Roller
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One thing that might appeal to a larger audience is a percussion version of the SMR. It could be done without additional CNC programming by offering a conversion of the flint plate that used a drum. A new hammer would be needed of course. ....I know orders are backed up already. I'd buy one on general principle.
A Chamberfs or Kibler kit minus the cut out for the flint lock could easily be a caplock SMR and a Chambers or Davis lock could be used.I have made a LOT of caplocks for such simple rifles and at one time a number of good looking hammers were available but don't know about now.
Bob Roller
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I don’t think I would want a percussion gun with the shortage of percussion caps that shows no sign of letting up.
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I'm developing severe Hawken fatigue and Kibler isn't ever going to offer a Hawken kit..... ::)
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I'm developing severe Hawken fatigue and Kibler isn't ever going to offer a Hawken kit..... ::)
Agree
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Someone mentioned the steel mounted J. Henry that Charles Hansen has noted in several publications as it being the missing steel mounted trade rifle . This rifle is NOT a J. Henry rifle . The only part on that rifle that is marked J. Henry is the lock . the rifle in my humble opinion is a North Carolina rifle and the rifle is maker marked on top of the barrel . It is also a small caliber rifle and not a large caliber rifle as we are led to believe. There is however the real steel mounted J. Henry rifle in a private collection . I'm not at liberty to say who has this rifle but one does exist !
At least we can agree there was such a thing. Now you have me wondering what it looks like. Iron mounted rifles are my favorite.
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The owner of the rifle has probably the largest J.Henry rifle collection that there is between him and his brother but they are closet collectors and I dare not mention there names . It will probably end up on an auction some day .
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I'm developing severe Hawken fatigue and Kibler isn't ever going to offer a Hawken kit..... ::)
🙄🙄🙄
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A percussion SMR might require a chambered breech with that small barrel. Especially in the .45 version.
Bob
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YES, between the Mississippi and the Rocky Mountain. Canada and New Mexico. Y'all have a wonderful day. AJ.
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A percussion SMR might require a chambered breech with that small barrel. Especially in the .45 version.
Bob
You beat me to the key board. I was going to suggest that a drum and nipple in a 13/16 x45 caliber barrel is a REALLY
bad idea ;D.Also,how many antique SMR's have a small,thin barrel?
Bob Roller
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A percussion SMR might require a chambered breech with that small barrel. Especially in the .45 version.
Bob
You beat me to the key board. I was going to suggest that a drum and nipple in a 1/3/16 45 caliber barrel is a REALLY
bad idea ;D.Also,how many antique SMR's have a small,thin barrel?
Bob Roller
The barrel of a recent Kibler SMR is 0.925" AF at the vent liner. That is a hair under 15/16" AF.
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I d like to see an officers fusil kit
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A percussion SMR might require a chambered breech with that small barrel. Especially in the .45 version.
Bob
You beat me to the key board. I was going to suggest that a drum and nipple in a 1/3/16 45 caliber barrel is a REALLY
bad idea ;D.Also,how many antique SMR's have a small,thin barrel?
Bob Roller
The barrel of a recent Kibler SMR is 0.925" AF at the vent liner. That is a hair under 15/16" AF.
I would still want a chambered breech for my personal peace of mind.I have made who knows how many locks and triggers for the "Hawken"rifles but the same amount of S.E.A. work that goes into those guns can produce a nice English style
sporting or target rifle.The target rifle usually had no rib with rod attached and no set trigger needed and while many had some extra nice locks a good or even quality lock can be made*that will work.
Bob Roller
S.E.A.+ Sweat,Effort,Aggravation ;D
*A lock with a well made but common mechanism will do as well as the
fancier locks with the bridle on 3 or 4 posts.
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Built a LHed .54 cal Stith Hawken that had a 36" bbl and was 1" at the breech and 7/8" at the muzzle and the owner elk hunts the Rockies and it's an "all day gun". Never weighed it but it's quite manageable to carry and shoot.....Fred
(https://i.ibb.co/X3pkcSK/Hawken-Comb-L.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Gtk3zc8)
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If someone had asked me my opinion what the outcome would be to the original question, I would have completely misjudged the results. I’d still want one, though. This was an interesting thread.
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Fred, that is one of the best contemporary Hawken rifles I've seen...really nice work. Regarding weight and balance, I too built one of Don's parts sets but mine was a flint fullstock. My point here is that it too had a 1" to 7/8" x 36" tapered barrel in .62 cal. and the weight and balance were super. Sadly, it was lost in a trailer fire, started by kids playing with matches in long grass. The owner lost everything with zero compensation.
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Taylor.....thanks for the kind words...my .54 Hawken which is used for elk is a Pecatonica parts set and has a 1" straight bbl X 34" and have used it to kill a few elk in Colorado. It's a few lbs heavier than the Stith I built but still manageable. The last elk it killed was at a paced off 107 yds and it ran 40 yards to me before it dropped.
The reason I chose the Pecatonica parts set was the Bplate.....it doesn't have the extreme curvature that requires an upper arm hold. ....Fred
(https://i.ibb.co/5MxRScq/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FxqDy7G)
(https://i.ibb.co/ydsMzt9/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zQfL3pM)
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Nice rifle, Fred!
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Out of nearly 400 guns I have made I have shipped maybe 5 west of the Mississippi.
Could be that westerners don't care for the style of guns you make. Just saying.
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Out of nearly 400 guns I have made I have shipped maybe 5 west of the Mississippi.
I am proud to be in the one of five club.
David
(https://i.ibb.co/PW5PbyH/Shooting-the-Brooks-Flintlock-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bvrCyV9)
.58 caliber Brooks Game Creeper rifle. Deadly accurate at 100 yds.
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Fred, I just stumbled onto this old post and I really like your finish on both guns posted. Can you tell me your stain and topcoat finish schedule? I like how the grain pops and the overall color and sheen. Thanks, Martin
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I would respectfully suggest that a light weight Hawken Rocky Mountain Rifle (as opposed to their squirrel/local product) is not an authentic piece. They were made for carry on horse back & shooting at great big animals, some of which wood kill. That being said, I love them. If I were looking to produce a kit of a true Western fur trade rifle, I would go for a Leman, Henry, or Deringer which might be more authentic at a lighter weight. That probably would entail making a better/new contract style lock, but Mr. Killer can do that if it appears to possibly be profitable. I think that we have enough hi-grade Hawken kits as is. What we really need are some authentic Hawken breech plugs, especially in 1 1/8", & furniture.
Roger B.
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I would respectfully suggest that a light weight Hawken Rocky Mountain Rifle (as opposed to their squirrel/local product) is not an authentic piece. They were made for carry on horse back & shooting at great big animals, some of which wood kill. That being said, I love them. If I were looking to produce a kit of a true Western fur trade rifle, I would go for a Leman, Henry, or Deringer which might be more authentic at a lighter weight. That probably would entail making a better/new contract style lock, but Mr. Killer can do that if it appears to possibly be profitable. I think that we have enough hi-grade Hawken kits as is. What we really need are some authentic Hawken breech plugs, especially in 1 1/8", & furniture.
Roger B.
Totally agree. Full stock Leman Flintlock Trade Rifle would be my recommendation.
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Here we go again……..
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Ditto -- does not stop.
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I'm thinking a close copy of the 1950s turner Kirkland Pennsylvania rifle would sell like hotcakes.
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I'm thinking a close copy of the 1950s turner Kirkland Pennsylvania rifle would sell like hotcakes.
(https://i.ibb.co/Pgc5MXX/PXL-20220628-191445821-MP.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xt7zD00)
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I'm thinking a close copy of the 1950s turner Kirkland Pennsylvania rifle would sell like hotcakes.
(https://i.ibb.co/Pgc5MXX/PXL-20220628-191445821-MP.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xt7zD00)
Always wanted one of those when I started in the 80's.
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Jim's plate seems pretty full already. I do not see him having the time or a reason to offer any new models. IF he can sell them faster than he makes them already, why add more products? I see it like a restaurant with a menu that has too many choices. It is good to keep things simple if it pays the bills.
I would like to see in no particular order, a late, slim, 40" BBL, percussion long rifle, a Carson size Hawken, and an English percussion target pistol.
Instead of CNC machining a patent breech, why not do the drum like CVA? That would save making an intricate patent breech on a long rifle. Make the drum out of good steel, like 4140. I see no need to make the breech plug so tight as to make alignment of the drum a problem if the plug is ever pulled.
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I’d like to see GM re-issue the 1969 Pontiac Trans-Am too, but I can’t see that happening either.
That was a really cool car.
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I’d like to see GM re-issue the 1969 Pontiac Trans-Am too, but I can’t see that happening either.
That was a really cool car.
$#*! yeah!
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I’d like to see GM re-issue the 1969 Pontiac Trans-Am too, but I can’t see that happening either.
That was a really cool car.
With the 455 Super Duty? I'm in.
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1969 Z-28 .454 - track favourite in SW Ontario. Young lady cleaned up at the civilian-car drags.
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An actual Ford Bronco.
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Ok we have gone off topic. Time to move on.
Locking this topic.
Dennis