AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Stoner creek on August 31, 2021, 10:54:17 PM
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I had a fellow stop by the shop today. He had a nice swamped barrel, “Silas” lock, butt plate, trigger guard, and a butter soft precarve stock. Not a kit, precarve. This stock was going to take some doing to get right. The guy asked me what I thought and I gave him an honest assessment. I told him that I charge $100.00 for a good honest days work and that I would likely take at least 10 days to assemble and finish (maybe too optimistic).
The guy acted like I had held him up at gun point. Needless to say he walked away with his parts. I wish that I could remember our entire conversation but there were too many comments wrought with ignorance that I found myself gobsmacked. I had asked him why he didn’t just assemble it himself. His answer; “I don’t have a welder to put them things on the barrel that holds it to the stock………You know everybody does that…..”
So, how do you put a value on your time? Please reply in dollars.
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I would have approached that a little different. I would have told him $1500 and not tell how long it would take. If he ask how long it would take, I would have to say it depends on how long it takes to find someone who can weld these lugs on. You don’t want just any nimrod welding on your barrel.
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Now there you go Stoner, confusing what your time is worth to you with what it's worth to someone else. ;)
From the paychecks I normally get I'd say mine is right about minimum wage, maybe less when building guns...
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For spec guns, as a hobby builder, I look at it like practicing guitar for a gig or two. I enjoy it and am honing my craft. If just counting build time - not shopping and planning time - I figure about $15 an hour. My projects involve a fair bit of fabrication. Might build a lock from castings, form a buttplate, modify a guard, make all the small parts. Trigger from mild steel and sideplate, thimbles, nosecap, patchbox from sheet brass. If it doesn’t sell easily, it’s a gun I wanted anyway.
For customer-ordered guns I need $20 an hour but I have to like the project. If they want custom parts they have to understand a buttplate is going to cost over $100 if it was formed from sheet brass and complicated. And so on. Making a Fainot box is $250 minimum. Getting it all fitted and riveted takes time.
For friends and family, I can be a sucker.
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Back in the early 70's when I was trying to sell locks I was told they were too high and my answer was and still is.Take a lock to a machine shop and see what the shop foreman says.Now that I have stopped making them it matters not and I have always had other options like high end import car repair(European only) and making one off parts in my shop for pre WW2 and earlier cars and last but not least reconditioning stator supports for GM350 transmissions.Thank you GM for the short cuts built into those pathetic units.Also I was lead machinist for Polan Industries here in Huntington that was an optics maker and helped another shop that sub contracted to the coal mining industry and also a cutter grinding shop that reconditioned end mills and other tools with a sharp edge and made form tools for a Federal-Mogul power steering system that earned me a personal thanks from their CEO. I worked at a Babbit bearing shop for a couple of months and was laid off supposedly for slow business conditions and later found that because of my outspoken opinions of low life people that stole from their employer when they were already being paid a good wage that I scared the top 3 thieves and they got sent to prison for theft and fraud.Makes me feel good to know those guys were guests in the Hotel Graybars for a couple of years and have felony conviction records ;D.To answer the hourl wage question I charged what I thought the job was worth and still do in the triggers I now make.My wife and I have retirement income so we will not go hungry and refuse to support the prices for cars and 7 years of payments is not in the future for anything.
Bob Roller
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I get $55.00 per hour and 1 hour minimum even if it's only 5 minutes work.
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Hi Wayne,
I usually charge for the entire piece or job not by the hour. However, my hourly wage varies probably from a low of $12/hr to a high of almost $20/hr. The higher end is usually for guns requiring extensive decoration and engraving. I also do a fair amount of pro bono gun making and repair work for needy folks, particularly reenactors and local Vermonters.
dave
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I found myself too often gobsmacked and stopped taking orders. I work for $35/hr if I agree to take the order. I'm sorry you had to endure that sort of thing, takes the fun right out of the hobby. My goal has always been to make as much per hour as the guy that comes out to unplug your toilet, I'm less than 1/2 way there. ::)
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Hi Mike,
You know that really is a reasonable but largely unattainable goal. :D People pay big money for toilets but really hate to pay us.
dave
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I am honestly completely shocked that you guys work for that cheap. My shop rate is $200 per hour. I absolutely will NOT give you an estimate on how many hours a job will take. I require 150 percent of parts up front and a card number I can charge every 2 weeks for the time I spend. EVERY job is time and materials. If paying cash, some concessions are made, but not much. I would guess that nearly 80 percent of potential customers go away in a huff then come back and agrees to my terms. I am generally booked about 2 years out at any given point. I used to work much cheaper and could never keep up, but a customer who makes tens of millions a year at his profession explained to me how he gauges an hourly rate. His method was this: raise your prices by 25 percent every month. When you get to your desired backlog rate stop, you have found your realistic value as a tradesman. I do know that labor pays much more on the west coast, but I pay my delivery guys more than $30 per hour! (no, I'm not in California!)
Jon
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BTW, if you want a huge laugh, go to youtube and search the song "it costs that much" you will want to play it on loop! Fair warning, there is some swearing in it.
Jon
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I build falcon hoods for a fairly well known vendor in the falconry furniture business here in WA. I get a set amount per piece. My average is probably about $20 - $25 per hour for my time invested. If it was any less I don't know if I would do it.
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I think your more than fair. Knowledge, training and tools add up to a lot that most don't consider.
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Years ago I let a guy buy all the parts for the rifle I was going to build him. Never again. Nothing was right, misc whatever & I’m supposed to Make It look like a Lancaster ? Never again.
As for your time, to most people, Your time is worth nothing. Now His time is very valuable 🤷🏻🤣
Bout 15 years ago I had a guy contact me to build him a rifle. I had about 5 backlogged & I told him no, I’m not takin any more til I get 2-3 if these built. He says you mean to tell me you are going to turn down $3000 profit ? I said how do you figure that. Cost me $1000 for the stock blank & all the parts. So that leaves $2000 for the build. He says but it doesn’t cost you anything, you are building it at home, so it is actually Free. I said it may appear Free to you, but it is My time 🤨. Well, he says all huffy, I’ll just find me another builder ! I said I think that’s a Great idea ! Goodbye. 🤣
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I had a fellow stop by the shop today. He had a nice swamped barrel, “Silas” lock, butt plate, trigger guard, and a butter soft precarve stock. Not a kit, precarve. This stock was going to take some doing to get right. The guy asked me what I thought and I gave him an honest assessment. I told him that I charge $100.00 for a good honest days work and that I would likely take at least 10 days to assemble and finish (maybe too optimistic).
The guy acted like I had held him up at gun point. Needless to say he walked away with his parts. I wish that I could remember our entire conversation but there were too many comments wrought with ignorance that I found myself gobsmacked. I had asked him why he didn’t just assemble it himself. His answer; “I don’t have a welder to put them things on the barrel that holds it to the stock………You know everybody does that…..”
So, how do you put a value on your time? Please reply in dollars.
$100 a day sound like a bargain to me. $25+ per hour seems reasonable to me. Probably a good thing that person left. People like that are rarely satisfied.
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Assuming I ever got to building "real quality" and I felt comfortable charging for a custom rifle, I don't think it's the game for me. I know just enough from my efforts since 1971 to know that most people have no idea what it takes to build a "real quality" gun. I will continue to play around for my own entertainment but please let's leave it to the experts to do expert work! :o :o
And when I gotta have one I'll hire the work out. It's no small wonder a lot of top builders no longer work with the public directly.
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I run across this kind of attitude once in a while when dealing with people re my instrument business. What's my time worth ? Too much to have to deal with idiots. I have told some in the past that yes...it can be repaired, yes...I can do it...but I won't . Goodbye .
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When I used to take commissions, I was often asked for a price quote. So I asked the prospective client how much he made an hour at his job. He often hesitated to tell me, obviously sensing a trap. Then I asked him if he thought having a half million tied up in tools and inventory, fifty years of building experience and skills, and a reputation for quality work and an overwhelming personality, wasn't worth at least the same amount? I sometimes added, "did you come to me for the best, or for the cheapest you could get?"
Another great old friend who no longer submits here but was instrumental in getting me to subscribe to the ALR, Cody Tetachuck, once told me he used to tell a prospective client, "You can have it fast, cheap, or good. Pick two." You can have it fast and cheap, but it won't be good...you get the idea.
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Hi,
My need is not to make a living solely from gun making but just enough to pay my taxes and utility bills, which it does in spades. I have other major income, however to make a real living at this, makers should get at least what plumbers and carpenter's charge. The problem is there is no license or qualification that makes you a muzzleloading gun builder. Anyone can market themselves as a "builder" even those who just made a few Kibler kits. Moreover, much of the buying public have no idea what a quality and well designed muzzleloading gun should be like so how can anyone expect them to appreciate good work.
dave
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I found myself too often gobsmacked and stopped taking orders. I work for $35/hr if I agree to take the order. I'm sorry you had to endure that sort of thing, takes the fun right out of the hobby. My goal has always been to make as much per hour as the guy that comes out to unplug your toilet, I'm less than 1/2 way there. ::)
I was the guy who unclogged toilets for 25 years. I never made more that $30 per hour doing it, The owner of the company made all the big bucks. That being said, I've happily paid what I made or more for a quality custom rifle. I've built a couple for the experience of it. When I want one built right, I pay the builder his asking price.
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Time? To provide expert witness services, $200/hour.
To work on a friends gun, free or a 6-pack, services provided while he waits. I do not work on strangers' guns. Having been around gunsmithing for 40 years I have observed that making any money at it is a problem. Any endeavor that takes decades to master and only demands a little over minimum wages is problematical. Like so many things we love to do, the wage is low. Artistic endeavors tend to be like that. And yes, the rube customer, are problem. Guns seem to attract a certain percentage of idiots. IF you have a specialty, that attracts rich people, say Doug Turnbull, you can make a go of it. You have to be as much businessman as craftsman.
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Looks like I have the lowest rates of anyone here. I charge nothing to build a gun. No custom work or working on someone else's project at any cost. Not going to do it. I build whatever I feel like building. If I decide to put it up for sale, they can buy it if they want to.
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Stoner your timing on this is perfect. Had a fellow the other day. He wanted someone to put together his Kibler SMR. Someone gave him my name.
( that person needs counseling ) Anyway he asked me about how long it would take. Plus how much an hour. He does lawn mowing for a business. He then stated that he gets $65.00 an hour.
So I told him that would work.
Figuring he would say NO WAY..!
Unfortunately he agreed... Stoner $100 bucks a day with your talent. He was getting a great deal. But maybe that's why a friend of mine builds but doesn't take orders. If you want it fine. If not that's fine too..
Oldtravler
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If you want to make money, get yourself a couple of those big fancy lawn mowers and open a "land scaping" business. The last flintlock rifle I sold was more than twenty years ago. "I can get a Thomson Center for $800" was the cry that I used to hear! I have owned a full time blacksmith shop since 1995 and pricing was always the thing I disliked the most. Over the years I have learned to look at a person's shoes to get me going with a price. I have also decided on what I will make and what I won't make. I never liked making nails and I told a high end contractor NO nails. After haggleing for a while I agreed to make nails for $8.80 each, then I delivered 7,000 nails. At the same time I made and installed a front step railing for someone who NEEDED it for $100. I make flintlocks because I enjoy it, all of my kids and and their spouses have flintlock rifles and I have a small stack of them in my shop. I am just about finished making two hand forged pistol size locks that I don't need and I will sell them here at a ridiculous price that should net me 5 or 6 dollars an hour and then I will make a couple more, mostly for the fun of it.
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In the aerospace testing business I am constantly writing proposals to give a potential customer first a ROM (rough order of magnitude) estimate, and then, after many more of the details are known, a FFP (firm fixed price) bid. With customers who know what they are actually asking for, a price that often amounts to high six and even seven figures seems reasonable. To those who have no idea what they are really asking for, the price often evokes significant negative comment and disbelief. My usual response is this; "Look, I can work really, really hard on your project and make little or nothing doing it.....or I can sit on my keister and make little or nothing. Guess which one I will do?"
The problem here is that everyone needs their toilet to work....and everyone needs their car to work. No one HAS to have a new flintlock rifle.....not since the end of the 18th century anyway. I have made several custom flintlock guns for $4500 and even much higher. But when I divided out the actual number of hours they took to build, carve, engrave, and finish, I don't think I was clearing $25 per hour for my time. Worth it (I guess) if I had nothing else to do, but no way for me personally to make a living....even if I really enjoy the work. ;)
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When I retired from my first career (LEO) I just wanted to get into the shop, clear a lot of things out of my head and proceed with life and enjoy it. By that time I had built 25-30 guns for friends. I had a passion for longrifles and art. I did not care what I made, as long as it was not costing me. I went to the very first CLA show and sat and talked to Jud Brennen. He told me that gun building was a fine way to "starve to death slowly." I began to build more and more guns. It did not take long to find the sweet spot where you make a reasonable profit and have enough orders to keep you busy. As the demand became greater, the prices increased. I like many others am now at the point where I no longer accept commissions. As soon as I finish out those on the order book, I will build what I want, when I want, at the pace I want. I have enjoyed the very interesting people that I meet, many from all parts of this great land. Each client has a story to tell, a reason to want the gun. They likely do not know as much as you about longrifles and history as you do. This is your opportunity to inform and help them, they are not idiots, just uninformed. I guess years of doing criminal investigations equipped me to get inside people, and get handle on their desires. The relationships that you build are important as well as the profit you make. If you are just looking for profit, there are many more profitable trades---likely not as satisfying.
All the best-----Ron
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I had a fellow stop by the shop today. He had a nice swamped barrel, “Silas” lock, butt plate, trigger guard, and a butter soft precarve stock. Not a kit, precarve. This stock was going to take some doing to get right. The guy asked me what I thought and I gave him an honest assessment. I told him that I charge $100.00 for a good honest days work and that I would likely take at least 10 days to assemble and finish (maybe too optimistic).
The guy acted like I had held him up at gun point. Needless to say he walked away with his parts. I wish that I could remember our entire conversation but there were too many comments wrought with ignorance that I found myself gobsmacked. I had asked him why he didn’t just assemble it himself. His answer; “I don’t have a welder to put them things on the barrel that holds it to the stock………You know everybody does that…..”
So, how do you put a value on your time? Please reply in dollars.
I don't have time for a job like that, not for a fellow so far out of touch-but obviously trying to save every penny. He's likely not going to be satisfied if he pays the "high" price because it all seems so exorbitant to him. He bought the pieces to save money and here you are trying to stick it to him. ::)
Otherwise, I don't feel bad when I can make 100 in a day doing work that I like. I just don't get the opportunity to do a lot of it.
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My Shop Rates
$25.00 per hour
$50.00 per hour if you want to watch
$75.00 per hour if you want to help
$100.00 per hour if you tried to do it yourself and screwed it up
Seriously, I build guns as a hobby so I don't keep track of the time spent. Building a gun takes as long as it takes. I like making as many of the components as I can ie barrels, breeches, locks, triggers, sights, etc. so I probably don't make $5.00 an hour.
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I am honestly completely shocked that you guys work for that cheap ... I used to work much cheaper and could never keep up, but a customer who makes tens of millions a year at his profession explained to me how he gauges an hourly rate. His method was this: raise your prices by 25 percent every month. When you get to your desired backlog rate stop, you have found your realistic value as a tradesman...
Jon
THIS is what the "businessman" inside me has tried a few times to tell guys who complained about their backlog of work. In the hand-made bike biz, many of the top guys had 3-5 year backlogs and mumbled about it a good bit. But raising prices to shorten the orders list never seemed to be popular or favored. One fellow adopted the practice of opening his order book in January, and closing it when he had all the orders he wanted for the year. Then if he completed those and wanted a few more, he'd just announce it and get more orders (the folks waiting for next Jan.).
A big backlog is "job security" on one hand, but it can get complicated and lots of things can happen in two or three years of time. And you don't know if you could have charged more, and you only get to work so many hours of this life. The more valuable those are the better we can spend those hours we don't work. I'm looking at a "dayjob" shift real soon maybe. I'm way more valuable than I'm getting paid right now.
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I build fairly plain rifles and fowlers so I typically use a formula recomended to me a while back- cost of parts X 2.5
For the guys at my local club and neighbors who need repairs or modifications - cost of parts and a pound or two of powder
Kevin
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First off, I think one of the absolute best skill sets a person can have in their pocket is being self-employed at some time in their life. It brings into sharp focus the meaning of overhead (in the sense of light bulbs, taxes, services, and time that gets wasted for whatever reason) as well as an understanding of one's own efficiency at the assigned task. That's at the professional level, and it embarrasses me what I have to charge for my real job.
For the hobby type stuff, mostly restocking breechloaders, maybe $10-15/hour, for the simple reason that I ain't fast.
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Stoner Creek, I think $1000 to put a questionable precarve together was dirt cheap. You could have told him to sell the parts, buy a Kibler kit and you would put that together for $500. You would have had fun making it special and he would have ended up with a great gun.
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The value of my time fluctuates depends on if I am building a gun, making a horn or working for the state.
Like Mr. Brooks I have quit taking custom orders, I have one that I need to finish.
Cory Joe Stewart
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I am not in the business, per se, but will build a gun for good friends. I recently sold a flintlock I built for myself to a fellow club member . I quoted a price that would cover my costs and give me beer money, and asked if it was agreeable, and he laughed and came back with a price that was $100 more. I liked that. For A previous job putting together a Charleville musket kit for a friend , I quoted a price of 2 fifths of really first class small batch bourbon. I kept track of my time . That worked out to be worth $2.38/hr. I am not a high quality builder, but can build a very presentable, safe, good quality gun, and hereafter will charge in a more equitable manner .
Mikeyfirelock
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It is not so much how much your time is worth, it how much is the finished product worth. An experienced person can get a great job done a lot faster than an inexperienced person. The person that is slow, should not get the same as the person that works harder. I can make a 3 hour job last all day, but the value is still only worth 3 hours pay.
If the person has specialized skills or tooling, he should get more per hour than the one without, simply because he can get the same finished product made faster. So he makes more per hour, but both make the same per finished product.
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One of the reasons I no longer take commissions, is customer attitude itself. I have grown weary of some folks attitude toward this industry.
Long after I had decided to 'retire', I got a call from an acquaintance a little further north of me, and he wanted to know if I would "kit bash" for him. He said it's really simple - I have a kit and I need you to "kit bash" for me. That was his way of asking me to assemble his rifle. But it speaks of his understanding of what is required to do the work, and consequently, what that work is worth. In the end, I told him he could do his own kit bashing.
On the other hand, I have enjoyed working for some clients in my past recent years, who understood the craftsmanship and talent that is required to do superlative work, and were most willing not only to pay for it, but to wait until it was done on my terms. Those are the memories I want to hold onto.
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Stoner Creek, I think $1000 to put a questionable precarve together was dirt cheap. You could have told him to sell the parts, buy a Kibler kit and you would put that together for $500. You would have had fun making it special and he would have ended up with a great gun.
That's an financially sound idea, but how much time/effort does Wayne have to put into selling that fellow on such a "deal".
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Stoner Creek, I think $1000 to put a questionable precarve together was dirt cheap. You could have told him to sell the parts, buy a Kibler kit and you would put that together for $500. You would have had fun making it special and he would have ended up with a great gun.
That's an financially sound idea, but how much time/effort does Wayne have to put into selling that fellow on such a "deal".
It didn’t take long for me to decide that building this thing would have been an unpleasant experience. He came across as one of those guys who would call on Fridays wondering how his gun was coming along and not quit calling until I would have been forced into being rude. Those of you who know me could easily imagine how bad things could get if I lost my cool with some idiot.
His helpful advice as to how fun, safe, and easy it was to make an aquafortis stain pretty much sealed his fate. Well that along with grabbing guns in the shop and swinging them around like GI Joe (without permission). My little voice was telling me to get him off of the property as soon as possible.
This gun making thing is my fun hobby. I made my living working for the man for 40 years. I’m not going to let a gun order take the fun out of it.
Adios Amigo🙋♂️
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Stoner Creek, I think $1000 to put a questionable precarve together was dirt cheap. You could have told him to sell the parts, buy a Kibler kit and you would put that together for $500. You would have had fun making it special and he would have ended up with a great gun.
That's an financially sound idea, but how much time/effort does Wayne have to put into selling that fellow on such a "deal".
It didn’t take long for me to decide that building this thing would have been an unpleasant experience. He came across as one of those guys who would call on Fridays wondering how his gun was coming along and not quit calling until I would have been forced into being rude. Those of you who know me could easily imagine how bad things could get if I lost my cool with some idiot.
His helpful advice as to how fun, safe, and easy it was to make an aquafortis stain pretty much sealed his fate. Well that along with grabbing guns in the shop and swinging them around like GI Joe (without permission). My little voice was telling me to get him off of the property as soon as possible.
This gun making thing is my fun hobby. I made my living working for the man for 40 years. I’m not going to let a gun order take the fun out of it.
Adios Amigo🙋♂️
Oh I can just imagine what my dearly departed mentor Jim Hash would have done with someone like that in his shop. For those that knew him, you have a pretty good idea how it would have gone down : )
Wayne, sorry you had to even endure a mess like that.
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... Those of you who know me could easily imagine how bad things could get if I lost my cool with some idiot.
His helpful advice as to how fun, safe, and easy it was to make an aquafortis stain pretty much sealed his fate. Well that along with grabbing guns in the shop and swinging them around like GI Joe (without permission). My little voice was telling me to get him off of the property as soon as possible.
...
It was this sort of behavior I saw in retail modern gunshops that turned me against the idea of ever opening such shop. Too many know-it-all and dangerous idiots out there for my nerves to bear.
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Stoner Creek, excellent philosophy!
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I've built about 10 guns now. They range from really hideous and poorly built to reasonably attractive and well-built. I've been asked by more than a few guys if I would build them a rifle and until now I've always said no. My skills have improved to the point where I really feel like I could provide a well-built gun, albeit a plain gun, but I still can't convince myself that I want to do it for money. Partly because I would always feel self-conscious about whether my work was good enough, partly because I don't think most people realize what the labor component should cost and partly because I simply wouldn't want to deal with the types of people that are being described here by some of the guys that do it for a living.
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Gangrene my sentiments exactly. Oldtravler
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I worked at the gunsmithing/restoration & engraving trade first as part time for 20yrs then as a full time for another 30.
At no time in there did I ever consider me working in my shop to be any thing of a spectator sport.
No hanging around, I liked to work alone. Call it Hermitism or what ever but my work got to be well respected and I never was without jobs waiting to be done.
I didn't ever advertise. Simple word of mouth and the work spoke for itself.
I would pick up and deliver most everything at gunshows and the shops of some of the dealers I did work for. Later when full time lots of the work came by the BigBrownTruck.
Since it was a real business, FFL, sales tax, business licenses, 1040C all that. I had to charge accordingly. No $3/hr stuff though when I first started as a part timer, that was probably a good wage for a lot of the jobs at the time.
I got to the point of just quoting /per the job. In my head figuring an hourly rate which changed over the yrs but ended in the $125/hr range.
I ended up w/a very small circle of very good customers that actually never really asked about prices. They just sent in work and I sent it back with a bill.
Some were 'on account' and I just debited off their account as I went along. They added to the account accordingly.
Nice set-up.
No haggling over work vs price. No $#@* jobs. No 'Is it done Yet' phone calls.
They knew me and my work and if they had a spec request for a due date I usually could accommodate.
It would be extra busy some times and I'd put in 14hr days and more for a few weeks at a time to keep things moving along.
But generally a 10hr day 6 days a week was normal. I never had a standard work day plan. Usually worked mostly late afternoon till early AM.
Other than to go to a gunshow,,I never took a real vacation in all that 30yr full time work. Didn't feel the need.
Self-employed has it's advantages but you have to really be able to work unsupervised. Not everyone can do that.
Self retired now, I still take the occasional gun in for repair but charge little to none for the work as they are for old friends or customers retired as well. Or fellow weekly shooters at our club.
Lots of time to work on projects that have accumulated over the many yrs and never gotten to.
When I finish one, sometimes I shoot it a bit and sell it. Make a few $$ and move on to another.
No more BigBrown Truck deliverys twice a day and phone calls,,hate the phone.
It was a good gig, enjoyed it. But am enjoying the path I'm on now too.
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If I make 15-20 hrly while at the forge I am pretty happy. This year I started raising the price on my work. Part of this is because of increasing cost for material, but in part because I just needed too.
I'll second what others say on commission/custom work....I dont take it. I forge what I want and folks can buy it or not. So far, I don't have any knives setting around, not even one for myself.
There are weeks when I just don't feel like forging knives or being in the shop. Some days and weeks at work take a lot out of me mentally and somedays I come home a veg out. Nothing worse than having a crappy week at work and coming home to a customer aggravating the $#@* out of you about their order.
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I think minimum wage is now $15/hr. That is for a largely untrained, unskilled kid who won't stop looking at his cell phone, and probably feels entitled to $30/hr. For our local mechanic, its $75/hr. I try to shoot for $20-25 for my shop time, so when a skilled craftsman charges $15/hr you are getting a HUGE bargain. I'm sure every time that fella opens his wallet to get out a dollar, you can hear the air brakes being released!
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This is an excellent question and conversation. I usually sell my items (Rifles, Horns, paintings, but primarily Mountain Dulcimers) at a final cost. I actually don't keep track of the hours I spent on one thing since I often bounce from one project to the other as glue dries on one or the finish is curing on another...
I should note here that I don't consider myself a 'rifle builder' and certainly not a 'gun smith' since I really just assemble component parts from Kibler or Pecatonica, though I add some carvings and inlays.
I am told by a good many people over the years that I sell my things too cheaply for the quality of the things I make, but I hate to think I may over-value my own stuff. One recent example from last week- Some shooting buddies encouraged me to raise the price I was going to ask (by a hundred dollars) for a rifle I just finished. I was hesitant to do so, but listened to them, and it sold at their suggested price the day after posting it. Another example was of a powder horn I made that I had planned to offer for sale for $100. My son suggested $140. I thought 'why not try?" and posted at that price and it sold the next day.
I seriously think need a marketing strategist.
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I did a lot for the German muzzle loading shooters and their attitude was "Good work has its own value'' when at that time the Americans howled about paying for anything that resembled skilled work like making a lock from bars of steel.The very definitions applied to CUSTOM work excludes a distressed market that really can't afford what a lot of us do.I no longer make locks and now only a few triggers each month and sell them on this forum only and only when they are READY to send out.Taking payment in advance can be a big mistake and it gives the person who pays the advantage of a taskmaster and I know of several gunmakers that took advance pay and spent the money but still have the job to do and NO pay for it in the future.One of them got in trouble with the Postal Inspector for fraud and those guys do not let up.Jail IS a wake up call.
Do what is best for you and anticipate a payday instead of having to make something that was paid for months ago and the money went for whatever was needed at the moment.
Bob Roller
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This is an excellent question and conversation... Some shooting buddies encouraged me to raise the price I was going to ask (by a hundred dollars) for a rifle I just finished. I was hesitant to do so, but listened to them, and it sold at their suggested price the day after posting it. Another example was of a powder horn I made that I had planned to offer for sale for $100. My son suggested $140. I thought 'why not try?" and posted at that price and it sold the next day.
I seriously think need a marketing strategist.
I see it like this: if it sells quickly enough it's priced right, if it takes too long, it's overpriced and could be adjusted downward by the maker. Which leads to the next thought below.
Another rule I follow as a buyer is that I do not quibble any craftsmans' prices for their own work (can be taken as an insult to his/her work), but then I always attempt negotiations on second-hand work, where very little, if any actual blood/sweat/tears of the seller are involved.
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If you are trying to make a living building longrifles, good luck. I stopped trying to make a living at it a while back. I have also gotten choosey about the projects I decide to do. I also will not work on parts that somebody has unless they are good parts, life is just to short. If they have started work on the parts I definitely won't work on them. Most of the time they have mangled the project to the point that they know they can't fix it and they want you to fix it for little or nothing. When somebody starts saying well if we don't do this or that can I get the price down I know it is a lost cause. If they really get me going about the price I ask them how much they make an hour. Then I ask them would they do their job for 1/3rd less gun but still give the same quality. I have yet to have somebody to say they would do their job for less much less at the same quality. There are many hobby builders that will work for the price of parts and there is nothing wrong with that. I have worked and studied building the Longrifle for over 40 years, I am no longer a hobby builder and I expect a fair wage for my efforts. If that is to much then so be it.
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Mr. Bob Gerard... you sound like a humble man. Keep it up. There are few around these days.
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Stoner Creek, you asked us to reply in dollars.
Several full time professional top contemporary gunstockers who also did high end restoration were charging $50 per hour plus materials and expenses in the 1980's - 90's. They joined the KRA and attended ASAC meetings, studied the old guns and moved with folks who could afford custom work. Many collectors wanted a shootable copy of a great old gun, which is how these guys got started. Several other fine builders tried to copy those prices, but without promotion and name recognition, they struggled to realize that rate. Once a few of us hobby builders learned a good deal from the pros, if someone wanted hourly work done, we would ask half of their rate, or $25 per hour - enough that the customer might still go to the pros we learned from, and did not give away our time. Now those same pros charge $100 per hour for restoration and new work, or might quote a price for new work based upon that rate. And they are as busy as they want to be. Us hobby guys mostly grew out of stocking work on order and now build what we like, then try to sell it.
Us hobby guys - like many others who have posted here, we started humble to help others and learn, and mostly still are. When parts cost $250, an in the white plain gun went for $350 and with finish at $400. Parts went to $400, itw $550 and $600 finished for a Hawken, Leman, plains rifles or simple longrifles. Enough to buy some parts for next rifle or for ourselves. Carving and fancy pboxes higher of course. A built from scratch JJ Henry trade rifle in 1990's with custom lock, barrel and mounts was $2,000, which was a lot of money in those days, but a few guys wanted something special. Nowadays from $2,000 something plain with correct lock and parts, to $3,500 for nice longrifle w box and carving, up to $5,000 or more for something special. The market slims out quickly above $3,500, but customers are there if they want something special and you know the old gun.
Like others have mentioned, I like trading an hour for an hour. A friend who was head attorney for a large banking system wanted me to assemble and shape a NW gun for him, and asked about cost. I asked him to draft a will for us, and we would trade hour for hour. At first he gasped, but then later said that was a great way to work, especially to keep respect between friends. Another guy wanted a flint Leman, and he ran a dozer for a living. He graded a lot and driveway for several other customers, hour for hour on his rifle. The word got around, and this has worked well, keeps all on an even level. They don't respect us until we ask.
Customers used to enjoy the relationship with the builder - that was what they were paying for. It was easier to sell a $3 - $5,000 rifle if they were involved in the process of building, than buying a completed rifle they had no role in. Some of that still applies with custom customers who want something special, but kit guns have really changed the lower half of the gunstocking business. Bob
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Stoner Creek, you asked us to reply in dollars.
Several full time professional top contemporary gunstockers who also did high end restoration were charging $50 per hour plus materials and expenses in the 1980's - 90's. They joined the KRA and attended ASAC meetings, studied the old guns and moved with folks who could afford custom work. Many collectors wanted a shootable copy of a great old gun, which is how these guys got started. Several other fine builders tried to copy those prices, but without promotion and name recognition, they struggled to realize that rate. Once a few of us hobby builders learned a good deal from the pros, if someone wanted hourly work done, we would ask half of their rate, or $25 per hour - enough that the customer might still go to the pros we learned from, and did not give away our time. Now those same pros charge $100 per hour for restoration and new work, or might quote a price for new work based upon that rate. And they are as busy as they want to be. Us hobby guys mostly grew out of stocking work on order and now build what we like, then try to sell it.
Us hobby guys - like many others who have posted here, we started humble to help others and learn, and mostly still are. When parts cost $250, an in the white plain gun went for $350 and with finish at $400. Parts went to $400, itw $550 and $600 finished for a Hawken, Leman, plains rifles or simple longrifles. Enough to buy some parts for next rifle or for ourselves. Carving and fancy pboxes higher of course. A built from scratch JJ Henry trade rifle in 1990's with custom lock, barrel and mounts was $2,000, which was a lot of money in those days, but a few guys wanted something special. Nowadays from $2,000 something plain with correct lock and parts, to $3,500 for nice longrifle w box and carving, up to $5,000 or more for something special. The market slims out quickly above $3,500, but customers are there if they want something special and you know the old gun.
Like others have mentioned, I like trading an hour for an hour. A friend who was head attorney for a large banking system wanted me to assemble and shape a NW gun for him, and asked about cost. I asked him to draft a will for us, and we would trade hour for hour. At first he gasped, but then later said that was a great way to work, especially to keep respect between friends. Another guy wanted a flint Leman, and he ran a dozer for a living. He graded a lot and driveway for several other customers, hour for hour on his rifle. The word got around, and this has worked well, keeps all on an even level. They don't respect us until we ask.
Customers used to enjoy the relationship with the builder - that was what they were paying for. It was easier to sell a $3 - $5,000 rifle if they were involved in the process of building, than buying a completed rifle they had no role in. Some of that still applies with custom customers who want something special, but kit guns have really changed the lower half of the gunstocking business. Bob
Bob
The best (and my absolute favorite part of your reply) is “The don’t respect us until we ask”.
The potential customer that sparked this original post works in the HVAC trades. It was impossible for him to compare the rate of his skilled hourly compensation to mine and I can assure you that I have more years of experience! Bottom line in my opinion, assess your own value and that’s the cost. It seems that everyone else out there is proud of their time!
Yes, $100.00 per day is cheapo!
Thanks to all of you in the craft for your thoughtful input. It is truly appreciated from my end!!!!
Wayne
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Hey Wayne, By the time I factor in leather, lining cloth, thread, finishes, etc. and then my time, I'd be lucky to get $3.00 per hour at most. I do not work fast, but I enjoy trying to make a really nice product. Clearly I am in this for the hobby aspect (after my paying engineering job), and not for making money. I also tend to re-make anything that isn't up to my standards, so that factors in too.
That guy who came to your shop needs to keep walking.
God Bless, Marc
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When you consider what $100 will NOT buy today it is an ominous sign.I have a $100 bill in under my drivers license and seldom think about it unless my wife asks if I still have it.At the ripe old age of 14 I did something really stupid.I rode a Brahma bull at a fair and won a new $100 bill.A 14 year old in Appalachia in 1950 was a sight and a wonder and unheard of here in this end of town or maybe even on the "well off" South Side.Printing pretty paper and calling it "money" has debased the value to the point that barter may be the next medium of exchange.We will see....maybe.
Bob Roller
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No, really stupid is the same stunt only not at the fair and not getting a$100 bill.
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Notwithstanding the fact I am a misanthrope at heart, the only way I would ever build a longrifle for anyone would be as an unexpected gift to a loved one. Period.
Ez
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I’m not a builder but I have to say that $100/day to have parts assembled by a good craftsman seems like a bargain. I can’t imagine what price he was expecting.
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In the end, most work like this:
(Price it can be sold for - cost of parts and supplies)/hours spent = hourly rate.
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I had a client for many years who had me build, for him and for his wife, a number of really special rifles. In what seemed to me to be no time at all, he lost interest in the guns, or found he couldn't shoot them to his expectations, and he sold them, always at a profit to him. Not once did he come to me and offer me first refusal, 'cause he knew he could get more than he paid for the guns. This came to me as a kind of kick to the naughty bits, so I stopped building guns for him, and increased my prices so that I wouldn't feel cheated if they sold within months to someone else. Truthfully, I'm happy to be clear of all that now...fully retired and building for myself only.
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I had a client for many years who had me build, for him and for his wife, a number of really special rifles. In what seemed to me to be no time at all, he lost interest in the guns, or found he couldn't shoot them to his expectations, and he sold them, always at a profit to him. Not once did he come to me and offer me first refusal, 'cause he knew he could get more than he paid for the guns. This came to me as a kind of kick to the naughty bits, so I stopped building guns for him, and increased my prices so that I wouldn't feel cheated if they sold within months to someone else. Truthfully, I'm happy to be clear of all that now...fully retired and building for myself only.
When I started out I built for all of my shooting buddies dirt cheap so everybody could afford a good gun. One by one they went on to other things and sold off their guns. Nearly all of them bragged and laughed about making 3 to 4X more than what they paid originally. I have very few buddies anymore. ;)
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Sounds familiar………but to my knowledge, no ones sold anything ( probably because they can’t find them in those cluttered closets……..I doubt they’ve been shot since the that first time in the 70’s)
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I think minimum wage is now $15/hr. That is for a largely untrained, unskilled kid who won't stop looking at his cell phone, and probably feels entitled to $30/hr. For our local mechanic, its $75/hr. I try to shoot for $20-25 for my shop time, so when a skilled craftsman charges $15/hr you are getting a HUGE bargain. I'm sure every time that fella opens his wallet to get out a dollar, you can hear the air brakes being released!
I'm reading the entire thread at the moment but had to stop and remark on your description of that customer opening their wallet. That's funny and you made a grumpy guy smile, thank you.
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Looking back over the last 6 decades I remember no specific wages by the hour except the $20 an hour I quoted a man in Canada in the early 90's and he need all the nuts and bolts duplicated and detailed for a Duesenberg he was restoring and these were,with the exception of the shackle bolts and nuts made from different sizes of hexagon stainless steel and were acorn heads .There were also 4 finned aluminum plates on the motor block that covered water passages around the cylinder walls and these were fillister head and 1/4x24 which was the old U.S.National Fine thread.
The triggers are charged by the job and and think the $60 and $70 i get for them is fair today.In the early 1970's there were quite a few that were getting into muzzle loaders and I got tired of these folks and the offers of beads,hides and other non negotiable things in exchange for the time and material it took to make a lock.I told more than one of these bozos to call an industrial supply house and make them the same offer to them for end mills,0-1 steel,taps and dies and threading fluids and that stopped the conversation cold in its tracks. At that point in time anything associated with a muzzle loader HAD to be first class and CHEEEEEP >:(.I hope all of these people are now involved with something they can afford to do.
I haven't noticed any of these junkyard attitudes on this forum and doubt if I ever will.
Bob Roller
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What is the average time needed to construct a rifle ? That would be from stock blank with purchased parts. There could be either a wooden patch box cover, or a brass patch box.
I am curious.
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Plain Jane, no patchbox, straight barrel probably around 65 hours. Add 4-6 hours for the wood box with no decoration. Ad 30 hours for a simple metal box with no piercings and all of those hours are dependent on my being cocked and locked with no distractions. Which will take me back to my original question: What’s your time worth? Plain gun @ $1000.00 labor @ 65 hours = $15.38 per hour. I could make more being that “go to” guy at my local hardware store!
You do this because you love to do this.
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What is the average time needed to construct a rifle ? That would be from stock blank with purchased parts. There could be either a wooden patch box cover, or a brass patch box.
I am curious.
Barrel inlet and ram rod hole drilled I used to be able to do a gun like that in 25 hrs. Probably something like 35-40 now. Full dresser 60-80 hrs. went 120 once...never again.
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When all is said and done, the fact is: Your time is only worth what someone else will pay for it.
Percy
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I think most folks are calculating building from a blank as actually starting with the barrel inlet and the ramrod groove and hole done. If I made no parts and had a pre-made patchbox (hinges and catch provided) then 60 hours for a rifle with some carving.
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When all is said and done, the fact is: Your time is only worth what someone else will pay for it.
Percy
I just got a 4-dollar raise by changing jobs. Then the old place offered me +2$ when I gave them notice-so I'm still working there some. Plus I rented a property I manage. Three raises in a week, should help out a lot. Keeps me busy too. :P
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The work executed by some of you is absolutely fantastic. To not think that a man (or woman's) time is worth $100 per day, much less considering the level of artistic prowess that I've seen in this group, is criminal.
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When all is said and done, the fact is: Your time is only worth what someone else will pay for it.
Percy
Really? Tell that to a surgeon that just saved YOUR life or that of a loved one.
Bob Roller
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Yes, really! Kind of simple, the surgeon is selling his service and you agree to his price or go elsewhere. Your locks have a great reputation and are in great demand, you could probably double or triple the price and still sell them because someone is willing to pay the price.
As WadePatton just posted, he found out he was worth more than he was getting because his employer was willing to pay the price.
I'll stand by my statement: Your time is only worth what someone else will pay for it.
Percy
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I’m a hobby builder and a hobby basket weaver. For my baskets I don’t everything by the job ,but it breaks down to about 10-25 and hour it depends on the baskets . For my guns I have sold some for around 1500.00 but that is around 3 months of work .
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Really surprised by the figures you pro's are giving because, in a business sense, they seem to be a little low. This, especially because you coyotes bring so much value to the beholder of your art and craft.
I won't do bespoke work on a gun because I am not good enough, but Greg Dixon told me that my gun pricing meets a niche of the guy who wants something individual but can't yet afford the four figure pieces. We have also found that that same guy will eventually progress toward the higher quality rifle and a higher price. My guns are reliable and safe, but not in the perfectly crafted zone. I have the deficiencies of the old masters.
I usually have charged something like around $650 for the components and an add on of about a $100 in food donations to the poor.
As far as my shoes and leather work over there in Contemporary Accoutrements, I suppose there is some moral deficiency on my part because I end up giving the ladies what they want.
Once I had some guy in a blue coat as me how much I charged to repair the pair of wretched shoes he presented to me
"$450"
"WOW...you are really arrogant and that's a lot of money. How the H---much do you charge for your new shoes?"
"$65 and a donation to the poor of $25"
I guess value is all relative.
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When I first started building LRs, I amassed 2 racks full and one day realized that those that weren't my personal hunting MLers were never shot and that I just wasn't a collector. So, TOW sold 3 and I did have an idea of their selling prices minus TOW's 33% which was high but seeing their website receives 1000s of hits a week, it was good advertising for my guns and me.....and it worked because all my subsequent LRs were sold by me based on the prices TOW sold them for.
Seeing my gunbuilding is a hobby, I don't keep track of the hours for a particular LR but do use methods which are the least time consuming. Was a toolmaker and all the new jobs had completion hours which had to be met or one didn't get new jobs in the future or no longer was employed by that company.
Also the great majority of my builds were spec LRs and I mostly refused taking commissions from individuals. Had one individual call TOW and inquired as to what builders were "fussy" and my name was one of those mentioned....this guy "hounded" me for close to a year before finally giving up......Fred
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Plain Jane, no patchbox, straight barrel probably around 65 hours. Add 4-6 hours for the wood box with no decoration. Ad 30 hours for a simple metal box with no piercings and all of those hours are dependent on my being cocked and locked with no distractions. Which will take me back to my original question: What’s your time worth? Plain gun @ $1000.00 labor @ 65 hours = $15.38 per hour. I could make more being that “go to” guy at my local hardware store!
You do this because you love to do this.
But not here. The local Ace won't pay that. Location/economics of lifestyle are huge in this regard (and big corporations only pay the local labor rates and -not- anything more). 15 sounds pretty good to me. My "big" raise and job change didn't get me there. Folks think I'm fooling when I don't have money for this or that. I'm not. But I'm working on it.
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When I started out I built for all of my shooting buddies dirt cheap so everybody could afford a good gun. One by one they went on to other things and sold off their guns. Nearly all of them bragged and laughed about making 3 to 4X more than what they paid originally. I have very few buddies anymore. ;)
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Awwwww - Mikeee, you still have me! And maybe Stoner....
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When I started out I built for all of my shooting buddies dirt cheap so everybody could afford a good gun. One by one they went on to other things and sold off their guns. Nearly all of them bragged and laughed about making 3 to 4X more than what they paid originally. I have very few buddies anymore. ;)
Awwwww - Mikeee, you still have me! And maybe Stoner....
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Stoner aka Devil Spawn >:
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I just put a rifle up for sale the other day. It was a Kibler SMR that perhaps 35-40 hours of work.
I asked for what I thought was a fair price (it really did come out beautifully).
It sold in ten minutes.
I Think I could have gone higher!
I guess that what is conflicting for me is the joy I get in building these and happiness knowing that with these sales I can continue to build more. With some profits I have even been able to make one for myself and pay a bunch of bills :)
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It,s not what your time is worth, its what your skill level worth.
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Good point, little joe. So true.
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"What's your time worth?"
Simple answer...
Whatever the market will bear.
Whether you think that amount is beneath you is an entirely different thing.
Sorry... it had to be said.
Some people have a higher opinion of themselves... and others don't. I tend to be on the humble side. I'm a product of my upbringing.
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In the early 1970's the makers of guns and components time was of no value according to those who
i dealt with.Too many people with a taste for fine wines but only a beer pocket book.
Bob Roller
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….more and more each day….this I can tell you.