AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: Srkmarine1101 on September 08, 2021, 03:10:57 AM
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So I'm finally taking the plunge and would like to do my first build. I have narrowed my choices down to the Jeager rifle kit from Pecatonica. I know Kibler is always everyone's first recommendation (their great!) but I am just not interested in their current offerings.
I'd have the folks at Pecatonica install the beach plug, cut the site dovetails and ruff fit the butt plate. I'm under no illusions that these "kits" are easy and quick to go together. I know there will be a good bit of fitting and wood removal.
Just wondering your guys's thoughts on if this will be inappropriate kit for beginner? Or any other recommendations. I'm interested in a Jeager or early transitional style rifle.
I have basic woodworking skills, and I'm meticulous by nature...I feel like if I took my time with this, it just might turn out ok.
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That kit would be fine for a first one. Building guns is not nearly so hard as everyone seems to think it is. There is no need to have Pecatonia do that extra work. It is not hard to do.
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Ask lots of questions before you spend your money. My experience has been that some of these precarve stocks can be more work and frustration than building from a blank. If I were in your shoes I would consider a Chambers kit or a Kibler kit. You're going to learn a lot of why's and wheres with both. The Chambers kit will better hone your inletting and stock shaping skills. You will be happy with either.
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That kit would be fine for a first one. Building guns is not nearly so hard as everyone seems to think it is. There is no need to have Pecatonia do that extra work. It is not hard to do.
Thanks. My biggest concern is actually shaping the stock to look like a rifle...instead of a block.
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Ask lots of questions before you spend your money. My experience has been that some of these precarve stocks can be more work and frustration than building from a blank. If I were in your shoes I would consider a Chambers kit or a Kibler kit. You're going to learn a lot of why's and wheres with both. The Chambers kit will better hone your inletting and stock shaping skills. You will be happy with either.
Great advice. I'll look at those too. I was also considering the Edward Marshal rifle from Track as well.
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I realize that a lot of museums are closed right now, but if there was someplace where you could see some original rifles it would help quite a bit. Also, Recreating the American Longrifle by William Buchele is a excellent book for first timers. I would get the Marshal kit from Chambers or Dunlap Woodcrafts.
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I realize that a lot of museums are closed right now, but if there was someplace where you could see some original rifles it would help quite a bit. Also, Recreating the American Longrifle by William Buchele is a excellent book for first timers. I would get the Marshal kit from Chambers or Dunlap Woodcrafts.
Didn't know about Dunlap Woodcrafts. Thanks for the heads up on them.
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That Jeager kit sucks if you want to make an actual Jeager. I'd go with any of Chambers products instead.
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Ih you want to learn the "how to" of building LRs or MLers, one of the parts sets from Pecatonica , Chambers {more choices}, Dunlap, etc is the way to go. Having built parts sets from some of these suppliers, all of them had flaws that had to be corrected. ...but that's just part of building. Possibly the Kibler kit would be
"flaw free" because of CNC technology, bit one wouldn't learn as much about building LRs as w/ the parts sets from the above suppliers. If all you're after is a quality MLer that's easy to assemble buy the Kibler. But if you want to learn how to build a LR, go w/ a parts set from one of the above suppliers. .......Fred
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That kit would be fine for a first one. Building guns is not nearly so hard as everyone seems to think it is. There is no need to have Pecatonia do that extra work. It is not hard to do.
Thanks. My biggest concern is actually shaping the stock to look like a rifle...instead of a block.
Get the profile right then put the parts in the correct places and then remove all the extra wood. Just those three steps and then on to finishing. :o ;D Simple hah?
Also if you'll share your build steps here--the membership will likely help you around the small issues that tend to plague most pre-carves (exceptions to Chambers and Kibler of course).
I started with a blank, but also had a "local" nearly an hour away, who sawed out the profile and drilled my RR hole. Letting in a bbl is the only "pre-work" I care to have done now (having 'let a few in myself). But the profile has to be sawed for barrel installation--so it's actually two steps from a blank, three if you get the rammer hole bored. As I understand it, some guys in the biz of gunmaking do it this way too.
Look at books and tutorials here for the metal working aspects you might not be comfortable with. That way you get to make all the decisions (compromises) on where to put things. Best of luck.
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"Get the profile right then put the parts in the correct places and then remove all the extra wood."
I like what Wade said! I have dealt with Pecotonica River a few times and they are good to work with like Bill said their part sets are not that hard to build. I built a kit back in the lat 70's but didn't build a second one until I got the parts set from Pecontonica. But take your time because you will make mistakes. I like the Kibler and Chambers kits but I wanted to build something that neither had also I wanted something more challenging than Kiblers kits.
Rob
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I took a quick look at Pecaonnica River's current offerings. I would trust Mike Brooks comments on the Jaeger
Their "early Kentucky" or "Transitional Rifle" might fit your needs very well. You can call up and talk to them. They will steer you straight. If you can spend a little more call up Chambers Flintlocks and. tell them you are new. They will also lead you in the right direction.
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My first and second builds were from planks, being a rookie I bought a full sized set of plans for each rifle. Good builders hate these plans and draw their own but I am not a good builder. The plans give you cutaways of different places in the stock to show you how to shape the stock. Parts like the buttplate give you a profile to carry to the wrist.
With two plank builds and two precarves under my belt I would choose a plank build with the barrel inletted and ramrod hole drilled by an expert over any precarve except a Kibler.
I use these;
(https://i.ibb.co/g6dcJ7m/making-a-pattern.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6N8qFZr)
And this to make sure my shaping is spot on with no flat spots like the dreaded slab sided fore end.
(https://i.ibb.co/2NrYrBr/contour-gage-001.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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This is the by the plan fowler shown above after it was finished, not great but OK;
(https://i.ibb.co/JCz4PZh/fowler-selfies-006.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Hi,
First, Kibler kits are not everyone's first recommendation for every new builder. The advantages of the Kiblers are they are precisely made and as much "snap together" out of the box as can be commercially produced. Their designs are excellent, components first quality, and when you are done you have a well styled rifle that can be used as a model for what a properly made long rifle should look like. You will understand how all the parts should fit and how a stock should be shaped and refined. However, you won't learn or practice many gun making skills or procedures beyond finishing a stock, and only 2 styles are currently offered, which you indicated are not what you want. If you desire to learn and practice a greater range of skills and seek a wider range of styles, a gun made from one of the other kits or a blank would be better but the trade off is you risk making more mistakes and getting things wrong, particularly with respect to fitting parts, architecture, and shaping. It is all a trade off. The Edward Marshall rifle is an excellent handling gun and I recommend Chambers kit for that. It is a challenge to get the stock shaped right but it is worth the effort. The Chambers kit uses Chambers early Germanic lock, which is closer to the original lock than the Davis jaeger lock usually supplied with the kits by other makers including Track of the Wolf. If you go that route, I recommend 58 caliber. I don't think TOW sells an Edward Marshall kit anymore.
dave
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I took a quick look at Pecaonnica River's current offerings. I would trust Mike Brooks comments on the Jaeger
Their "early Kentucky" or "Transitional Rifle" might fit your needs very well. You can call up and talk to them. They will steer you straight. If you can spend a little more call up Chambers Flintlocks and. tell them you are new. They will also lead you in the right direction.
I might be wrong but Chambers had a few stocks left with very minor cosmetic flaws. These are easily good enough to use and complete an attractive gun with. You can save yourself around $200 in the process.
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IF you decide to go with the Chambers Marshal kit, you can order a "how to" DVD to go along with it. Chambers sells (or used to) the how to video that Ron Ehlert did for American Pioneer Video. It's in 2 parts (get both). I never built a Chambers Marshal kit, but one of our guild members had one (unfinished). It looks like a good kit. The Chambers lock is definitely better than the Davis. I used the Davis on my 2nd build (1st one from the plank). I had to completely re-build the lock and make new springs. I have the DVD's... they're some of the best. Ron was really informative. Unfortunately I never got to meet him, although I had the chance to speak with him on the phone once.
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Bob
I thought that was a York rifle
Rob
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Thanks everyone for the great responses and recommendations!
I will take a closer look at the kits from Jim Chambers, and ask on blemished availability. Also, I plan on buying some books/DVDs to watch before I even order my kit.
As far as books, I am looking at Gunsmiths of Greenville County and Recreating the American Longrifle. I will be asking plenty of questions on here I am sure.
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http://americanlongrifles.org/PDF/tutorial.pdf
You may want to take a look at this.
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I don't believe the video I mentioned has Ron building the Marshal rifle. I really wasn't connecting the video to a specific rifle, just that he shows you how to build a Chambers kit in general. Honestly... It's been awhile since I watched it... I have it on VHS.
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Bob,
I watched it not that long ago I think it was a York and if I remember right he built two one with a single trigger and another with a double set trigger.
Rob
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This is great!
http://americanlongrifles.org/PDF/tutorial.pdf
You may want to take a look at this.
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I will pick this up :)
I don't believe the video I mentioned has Ron building the Marshal rifle. I really wasn't connecting the video to a specific rifle, just that he shows you how to build a Chambers kit in general. Honestly... It's been awhile since I watched it... I have it on VHS.
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Another route to consider is getting a stock from Dave Keck at knob mountain muzzleloading.
http://knobmountainmuzzleloading.com/FredMillerStockpage3.html
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How do these compare to chambers? They look great.
Another route to consider is getting a stock from Dave Keck at knob mountain muzzleloading.
http://knobmountainmuzzleloading.com/FredMillerStockpage3.html
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These are not kits, it’s a semi profiled stock. You have to find butt plate and trigger guard that will work with the profile you choose. If your looking for a kit then I would go with Jim Chambers.
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If you are interested in an early rifle, I would absolutely recommend the Edward Marshall from Jim Chambers. I believe that Jim used one as his own personal hunting rifle for years. I built mine in .62 caliber and it is a wonderful rifle. The lock is superlative.
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You might take a look at Cabin Creek Muzzleloading, too -- they may have some styles that interest you. My first ever build was one of their kits and I found it to be just right for my beginner's skillset at that time. Enough of the intimidating (for a first time builder) work was done -- *and done well* -- but it gave me the opportunity to develop lots of the fundamental skills that helped me move on to building from a blank. I learned so much on that first one and still wound up with a nice-looking rifle.
I hope this helps.
- Tom
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I have spent the last few days looking around and am pretty much decided that this is the route I am going. Got my books ordered so it's time to start reading and taking some notes.
I feel like a rifle like that needs some basic carving at least. So may see about sending it out some where once I get to that point to have this done before I finish it. We'll see how I feel once I get there..
If you are interested in an early rifle, I would absolutely recommend the Edward Marshall from Jim Chambers. I believe that Jim used one as his own personal hunting rifle for years. I built mine in .62 caliber and it is a wonderful rifle. The lock is superlative.
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Ok, I gotta be that guy. Have you considered a simple trade gun or plain type Fowler? They were the work horses of the frontier, just not as saxy as a rifle.
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I think once you figure out what you want get it ordered there is usually more than just a few weeks to get it (lead times I have seen are 2+ months). Also a lot of the parts that are usually in stock are out of stock. All the stuff concerning building s rifle seems overwhelming and above your ability but remember you are only doing one thing at a time. Taylor said in his posts about building his Hawken rifle a while back, treat each thing as a project, I think that is great advise!
Rob
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Haven't even considered that. Who makes a good one? I will take a look at these.
Ok, I gotta be that guy. Have you considered a simple trade gun or plain type Fowler? They were the work horses of the frontier, just not as saxy as a rifle.
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Haven't even considered that. Who makes a good one? I will take a look at these.
Ok, I gotta be that guy. Have you considered a simple trade gun or plain type Fowler? They were the work horses of the frontier, just not as saxy as a rifle.
I’m sure Chambers offers a quality Fowler kit. As to the trade gun, unless you really want to get deep into the weeds, you can build a passable and quality gun with a barrel and parts from Track, non-inlet walnut stock from Pecatonica. Use the Chambers Virginia or English lock unless you want to build a lock from scratch. Trade guns are considered to be the easiest for a beginner to build.
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I was at Friendship today and bought another one of those cosmetic seconds. It’s a Mark Silver Virginia rifle in 60 cal. with an absolutely dynamite piece of curly maple. Barbie still has more kits available with the cosmetic flaws. I’ll post a picture of this one soon. As I have stated previously, I’m not really a kit guy but this one had to come back to Stoner Creek.
(https://i.ibb.co/RH7JbS5/6145-AC14-E668-497-D-881-B-4-A11-CA9-DC22-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dK7HMch)
(https://i.ibb.co/5vvfgP4/B0-C81-F3-A-B2-FD-46-C8-AF6-D-FB83-C8-C23-C01.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nff5NFm)
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I'm having some difficulty finding the flaw. I have always liked the gun that comes out of that kit, very cool.
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It’s a linear crack from the second pipe continuing to almost the muzzle. Not structural. Easy fix. No hill for a climber.
I’ve already drawing out ideas for this one.
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Score on that one Wayne. Thanks for reminding us about seconds.
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I have spent the last few days looking around and am pretty much decided that this is the route I am going. Got my books ordered so it's time to start reading and taking some notes.
I feel like a rifle like that needs some basic carving at least. So may see about sending it out some where once I get to that point to have this done before I finish it. We'll see how I feel once I get there..
If you are interested in an early rifle, I would absolutely recommend the Edward Marshall from Jim Chambers. I believe that Jim used one as his own personal hunting rifle for years. I built mine in .62 caliber and it is a wonderful rifle. The lock is superlative.
I built the Chambers Edward Marshall as my first and the York as my second and am patiently awaiting an English Fowler. Excellent products from Chambers and very fun and challenging experience, I don't think you can go wrong with them.
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For me, you are looking at the build all wrong from the get go.
Take a day or two & Drive to some place that has a multitude of stocks or guns & Shoulder some of them. You are basically gonna spend $1000. for a box of parts. To me that is not chicken feed, that's allot of $ based on MAYBE I
will like it & MAYBE I can shoot it comfortably ? ???.
It's a real bummer to pend 150-200 hr's on something that is awful for you to shoot. If you are going to build
something for You, start with something You Like. It doesn't matter What school or style or county or type, it
doesn't matter if it is fancy or plain, it need to Fit You.
I absolutely love a fullstock Hawken rifle. But I can't shoot one, it don't fit me well, a real one is way too heavy
(13#) so I don't own one or build them. Lehigh Valley guns, I just love them. Took me 20 yrs to find one that didn't
bust my cheek. Ya can't go by what others like or what fits them, you must find what fit YOU.
The only dealer you mentioned that I am aware of that has a real "KIT" is Jim Kibler. Basically you assemble it, stain, brown & go shoot it.
The rest of them should not even call them kits. You are buying a box of parts, not a kit. Most of them I will not touch because they are Over-inlet & the first thing ya have to do is start gluing in wood. :o What, I pay $500 for a really nice piece of wood & have to glue wood back on ? To me that is Totally ridiculous.
If you do go with the Jaeger, Do Not get one that takes a Acanthus Leaf Buttplate. First build it would be very rare
you ever get that buttplatte on correctly or without Allot of filler. It is a hard buttpleat if not the hardest one I know of.
Another thing, don't worry about the forestock being square if you buy a precarve. It is just wood. It will come off.
there is no rush.
If I were you, I'd take a ride & find a rifle I am Comfortable with. Then I would decide what barrel, caliber & etc.
But I see things different than some do.