AmericanLongRifles Forums

General discussion => Antique Gun Collecting => Topic started by: Braindead on September 12, 2021, 04:48:39 AM

Title: Unknown Large Bore rifle.
Post by: Braindead on September 12, 2021, 04:48:39 AM
Hello all,
Was pointed in this direction to maybe find some help on a recent muzzleloader I've picked up, with the intent to restore. I can't call her a lil lady as she looks to be .65 on the flats and almost .67/ 68 in the rifling grooves. Luckily she came with a bullet mold.
Have been unable to find any markings on her anywhere.
So looking for any suggestions on where I may look to collect more info.


(https://i.ibb.co/hmjTSqt/IMG-8230.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Krk8J13)

(https://i.ibb.co/nB8QZqm/IMG-8231.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W0pBqN5)

(https://i.ibb.co/Q96BJd2/IMG-8232.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fMCRXvh)

(https://i.ibb.co/7RY7xFw/IMG-8233.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k9HYVFR)

(https://i.ibb.co/VxV6cRF/IMG-8234.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kJKZsjL)

(https://i.ibb.co/L9CyWjq/IMG-8235.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YftSMnK)

(https://i.ibb.co/QDkqywb/IMG-8236.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FHXfRTx)

(https://i.ibb.co/TgJwqMd/IMG-8237.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bKY6R5D)

(https://i.ibb.co/HK5xy4D/IMG-8238.jpg) (https://ibb.co/10FdNQf)

(https://i.ibb.co/yyrh1zH/IMG-8239.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jMSV2Cn)

(https://i.ibb.co/vsqstk6/IMG-8240.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q0j0Zp3)

(https://i.ibb.co/J5NK0D5/IMG-8241.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xJyDPxJ)

(https://i.ibb.co/Zdg6CCF/IMG-8242.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0q9j336)

(https://i.ibb.co/qY3ZQtd/IMG-8243.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TMxC3Vk)

(https://i.ibb.co/Rbp3TRc/IMG-8244.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PjZcGqg)

(https://i.ibb.co/wy8p62x/IMG-8245.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F6c87dj)

(https://i.ibb.co/dQMjXYP/IMG-8246.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8jsNGZr)

(https://i.ibb.co/kDfpLfm/IMG-8247.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HPs0csh)

(https://i.ibb.co/GsrxS0b/IMG-8248.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s5XmY2M)

(https://i.ibb.co/CP1md4N/IMG-8249.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8YKN3GT)

(https://i.ibb.co/Lh23rbs/IMG-8250.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7N6qQ80)

(https://i.ibb.co/b7W6359/IMG-8251.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CW1wtKG)

(https://i.ibb.co/Tcvw52c/IMG-8252.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y0fNJP0)
Title: Re: Unknown Hawken Style rifle.
Post by: Mike Brooks on September 12, 2021, 04:28:50 PM
Probably stocked here using mostly Euro parts. The lock is far older than the rest of the gun, say 1700-ish? and maybe Dutch/Belgian/French and originally flint. The trigger guard appears to be a highly modified german piece. The butt plate looks like it is made from sheet brass and possibly came from some sort of fowling piece. The barrel tang has been extensively modified, why I don't know. The barrel looks to be tapered and large bored, not something commonly seen on American rifles....looks like an old jeager barrel that has been cut off and had a rib attached. I hope you're real good at fixing wood, that's a pretty awful break. I certainly wouldn't be anxious to shoot that one.
Title: Re: Unknown Hawken Style rifle.
Post by: FALout on September 12, 2021, 04:47:30 PM
That notch for the lock bolt looks mighty deep, not sure that barrel is a candidate for a shooting rifle.
Title: Re: Unknown Hawken Style rifle.
Post by: D. Taylor Sapergia on September 12, 2021, 07:13:24 PM
This is currently a half-stocked large bored rifle.  But other than that, it bears no resemblance whatsoever to a Hawken rifle.  Nor is it Hawken styled any more than a Lada is Mercedes styled.  One has to be careful when one throws names around.
Title: Re: Unknown Hawken Style rifle.
Post by: Braindead on September 12, 2021, 07:39:29 PM
Probably stocked here using mostly Euro parts. The lock is far older than the rest of the gun, say 1700-ish? and maybe Dutch/Belgian/French and originally flint. The trigger guard appears to be a highly modified german piece. The butt plate looks like it is made from sheet brass and possibly came from some sort of fowling piece. The barrel tang has been extensively modified, why I don't know. The barrel looks to be tapered and large bored, not something commonly seen on American rifles....looks like an old jeager barrel that has been cut off and had a rib attached. I hope you're real good at fixing wood, that's a pretty awful break. I certainly wouldn't be anxious to shoot that one.


The Barrel is 33 1/2 inches long, with stock its a total of 48 1/2 inches long, the stock is 2" at its widest point at lock mounting. Barrel is 1 5/8" at the breech, 1 1/8" at the muzzle. after some more light cleaning on the barrel, did find what looked like two grooves for the style of ramrod mounts under the barrel rib. Does show evidence of being in use a lot, from normal cap burn at where the nipple would be? 
And as much as I would love to shoot her the idea of her being a shooter is still low on the list, Just bringing her back as a beautiful conversation piece is more likely then it becoming junk in a box and then lost.

FALouts noted concern of the notch for the lock bolt being deep was a concern of mine as well. Even with the notch, the barrel thickness at that point is just under a half-inch in thickness.

And day four of owning her and still not proof marks or makers marks found anywhere.

Title: Re: Unknown Hawken Style rifle.
Post by: Braindead on September 12, 2021, 07:42:24 PM
This is currently a half-stocked large bored rifle.  But other than that, it bears no resemblance whatsoever to a Hawken rifle.  Nor is it Hawken styled any more than a Lada is Mercedes styled.  One has to be careful when one throws names around.

Correction Made.
Title: Re: Unknown Large Bore rifle.
Post by: Mike Brooks on September 12, 2021, 09:33:42 PM
That's a whopper of a barrel.
Title: Re: Unknown Large Bore rifle.
Post by: Braindead on September 12, 2021, 10:04:38 PM
That's a whopper of a barrel.

The barrel weighs a beefy 11.4 pounds.   and that's without the breech in it, breech plug sits in at 4.12 oz
Title: Re: Unknown Large Bore rifle.
Post by: Braindead on September 17, 2021, 08:09:24 PM
After cleaning off the thick layer of spray-on lacquer or whatever clear coat the previous owner slapped on it. Sadly it looks as if the coating was the  "aged"   look.
Oddly enough the trigger guard looks to be layered or two different metals, there looked to be areas that are darker than the rest of the trigger guard and maintain a patina. This is the same with the butt_plate, it has a darker area in it that seems to darken rather than the whole of it.

Had all parts for the lock and reassembled, same with the set trigger.

And still, No makers mark or anything

And no wire wheel was used on any parts.
(https://i.ibb.co/gZdqwRJ/IMG-8290.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nMBdfLj)

(https://i.ibb.co/RB657JL/IMG-8292.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CM9rWSx)

(https://i.ibb.co/wzsgjXg/IMG-8293.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Vqm95Z9)

(https://i.ibb.co/56nHmJh/IMG-8289.jpg) (https://ibb.co/80dZqQg)

(https://i.ibb.co/2hDxgz8/IMG-8279.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DWxh5BG)

(https://i.ibb.co/NS06ksf/IMG-8284.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pyHvsxN)
Title: Re: Unknown Large Bore rifle.
Post by: Mike Brooks on September 17, 2021, 08:25:33 PM
Iron mounts?
Title: Re: Unknown Large Bore rifle.
Post by: Braindead on September 17, 2021, 09:07:28 PM
No brass on this at all,  everything looks like iron or a layered mixed metal ( hard and soft) not fully sure, Going to take those parts to a friend who hand forges blades, maybe he will know.
Title: Re: Unknown Large Bore rifle.
Post by: Tanselman on September 18, 2021, 01:05:44 AM
Discoloration almost looks like areas that had old adhesive tape over them for a number of years. Shelby Gallien
Title: Re: Unknown Large Bore rifle.
Post by: Daryl on September 18, 2021, 09:16:38 PM
With .010" to .015" deep rifling, I would hope the "bullet mould" is not a bullet mould, but a round ball mould, that is, if you intend to shoot it at some point.
Title: Re: Unknown Large Bore rifle.
Post by: Braindead on September 19, 2021, 06:03:53 AM
With .010" to .015" deep rifling, I would hope the "bullet mould" is not a bullet mould, but a round ball mould, that is, if you intend to shoot it at some point.

It sorry for the improper term
Title: Re: Unknown Large Bore rifle.
Post by: Daryl on September 20, 2021, 08:46:31 PM
With .010" to .015" deep rifling, I would hope the "bullet mould" is not a bullet mould, but a round ball mould, that is, if you intend to shoot it at some point.

It sorry for the improper term

NP - but the proper words are important when describing something. ;)

You could get by, by saying Ball Mould, as back in the (that) day & up until close to the 1900's, bullets were also called balls. ::)
Title: Re: Unknown Large Bore rifle.
Post by: Rawhide Rick on September 26, 2021, 04:08:43 PM
I know Im wading in to deep water here, and this is not a challenge to anyone elses assessment, as Im barely a novice here, but

What stands out in the photos that makes the barrel a concern as a potential shooter?
Title: Re: Unknown Large Bore rifle.
Post by: rich pierce on September 26, 2021, 04:16:43 PM
I know Im wading in to deep water here, and this is not a challenge to anyone elses assessment, as Im barely a novice here, but

What stands out in the photos that makes the barrel a concern as a potential shooter?

It could be a shooter. It usually takes a lot of work. Id clean the unbreeched barrel then slide a white patch from the muzzle to within 3/4 of the breech. Now you can clearly see the condition of the powder chamber. If the rifling is missing due to erosion then a liner or reborn and re-rifling are needed. This is why they often cut an inch off the muzzle and breech when re-working a barrel. Those areas got ugly. If you have rifling all the way to the breech without major craters then re-cutting the existing rifling is possible.
Title: Re: Unknown Large Bore rifle.
Post by: Rawhide Rick on September 27, 2021, 05:37:56 AM
I know Im wading in to deep water here, and this is not a challenge to anyone elses assessment, as Im barely a novice here, but

What stands out in the photos that makes the barrel a concern as a potential shooter?

It could be a shooter. It usually takes a lot of work. Id clean the unbreeched barrel then slide a white patch from the muzzle to within 3/4 of the breech. Now you can clearly see the condition of the powder chamber. If the rifling is missing due to erosion then a liner or reborn and re-rifling are needed. This is why they often cut an inch off the muzzle and breech when re-working a barrel. Those areas got ugly. If you have rifling all the way to the breech without major craters then re-cutting the existing rifling is possible.

Hadnt considered erosion of the metal.  Seems like cutting off both ends of the barrel gets you in to a lot of other.