AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Black Powder Shooting => Topic started by: snowman485 on September 30, 2021, 11:42:29 PM
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Hey guys im new to flintlocks and was wondering if 4f can be used as the main powder charge for small bore flinters. Not sure if charges would need to be reduced ?
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No, no and heck no! 3F in the barrel on small bores (and pan if you like) 4F is for priming ONLY!
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Thank you
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Do a little research here's an article that says otherwise and I have used 35-40 grof OE 4F in my H+A under hammer on squirrels and the TC Renegade doesn't mind either !
(https://i.ibb.co/z2ZSVsv/IMG-0045-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lg1CdS7)
(https://i.ibb.co/PMCYnQ8/IMG-0046-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/68sZxB5)
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That's not research....posting a partial picture of an article with no attribution of who wrote it. Anyone can write anything. "I heard you can use xyz..."
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AZ, be nice. That is research, whether it's good or bad is determined by careful evaluation. For my part, I would never load with 4F. Among other things, it's fine enough that you might end up self-priming when running a patched ball home.
Dave
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Yes. Who knows the credentials of the person who wrote that? Also, the article is referring to powder made 200 years ago, and we are not using that powder.
Conventional safety protocol says do NOT use 4f in a bore. To what purpose anyway? In big bores 2f is the traditional accuracy powder to try first. In small bores start by trying 3f. The middle ground of .45 cal to .50 cal could go either way (2f or 3f) for accuracy.
If we do not call out someone who promotes unsafe practices, we are setting up a beginner for bad habit if they read that.
God Bless, and be safe, Marc
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I won’t vouch for the safety of that article, but it is an NRA published article. For what that is worth.
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I wasn't going to step into this post but I do agree with Marc and AZ. There is no reason to post part of an article that talks about using a powder made 200 years ago and today we know it is reckless and unsafe to use 4F in anything other than priming.
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The powder shortage will suck but don't try using 4f just because it is available.
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I wasn't going to step into this post but I do agree with Marc and AZ. There is no reason to post part of an article that talks about using a powder made 200 years ago and today we know it is reckless and unsafe to use 4F in anything other than priming.
I really don’t have a dog in this fight as I have no 4f powder, but are there any conclusive tests that were done to show 4fg to be dangerous as a main charge or is this just case of scuttlebutt that has been repeated often enough to be thought true while maybe not true?
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From what I've seen, what the Brit's call a really fine powder is very close to 3F in appearance, maybe a touch smaller, definitely not 4F.
Robby
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For heaven sakes, it all the same formula, just smaller granules. When I bought my first black powder gun it was a revolver. I could only find 4F powder locally, so thats what I used. Yeh, that first shot was quite a surprise, but after that I cut the charge in half, and made up the difference with Cream of Wheat, and shot up the rest of the can that way. I wouldn’t recommend it, but it could be done. It would beat the heck out of trading off my guns for a set of golf clubs.
Hungry Horse
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While I have "heard" of using 4F as the main charge in smaller bores, like .22 and .25's, it would not work well in a flinter due to blowing out the vent as you seat the patched ball.
Too, being a very fast burning powder, and the FACT that WW Greener posted a picture of a blown up SxS .45 cal. rifle when loaded with "fine" powder, I would suggest you would be on
thin ice to use it in anything but tiny loads in small bored rifles. The reason for the blowup as described by him, was due to the powder detonating instead of burning.
The finer the powder, the shorter the "burn" time. We all know that, or we should?
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The thing about the dangers of using 4Fg as a main charge is due in part to the fact that what has been on the market as the old GOEX 4f powder is that it was no longer an actual grain size range. It was little more than screening process tailings. The grain size ranged down to some very small stuff. As fine as a 200 mesh screen. Normally way back the screening unit "tailings" went back to the powder press to be worked back into the product stream. But since the 4f would be used for flintlock pan powder there was no question of blowing a gun up so they simply packaged the screening tailings as 4F. Another thing with this screening tailings 4f is that it is very rich in graphite. With the way graphite bonds to the steel in the barrels it makes cleaning that barrel squeaky clean becomes very difficult. There are few "soaps" or solvents than can actually break that bond between the microscopic particles of graphite and the steel of the barrel.
With graphite in the bore you do not burn it during the firing of the gun even thought it is essentially pure graphitic carbon. Graphite does not ignite until the temperature goes over 2,000 degrees and then burns only very slowly. So it does not burn when you shoot the charge in the gun. Think of carbon graphite rods in the old searchlights.
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There is a British gentleman on another forum who uses 4f as a main charge all the way up to his 20 gauge trade gun. It sounds like the charge size is greatly reduced compared to what one might use of even 3f.
I'm not saying it should be done. But, it can be done and is being done. Just like any loading endeavor in unpublished or new territory, work up. Start very light.
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There is a British gentleman on another forum who uses 4f as a main charge all the way up to his 20 gauge trade gun. It sounds like the charge size is greatly reduced compared to what one might use of even 3f.
I'm not saying it should be done. But, it can be done and is being done. Just like any loading endeavor in unpublished or new territory, work up. Start very light.
On a particularly long thread over there we were finally able to flesh out that what that ‘4f in the bore proponent’ calls 4f is some Euro market powder called ‘pistol powder’ (and so obviously ‘4f’) but with grains the size of our common 3f powders. I think 4f in the bore is another variation of the same sort of tell as shooting 280g/3f charges at the range.
….or perhaps it just shoots cleaner, has more velocity, and no down sides at all…..
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My old Lyman book shows max charge of 4F behind a 138 gr RB as being 37.0 grains of C+H 4F in an 8 inch barreled 44 943 FPS just saying (1974 ) 4F was listed quite often and like I said it works in my guns ,not yours just mine/Ed
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I think some context is needed, here.
I see (Lyman book) the 4F pressure given in the .36 handgun loaded with a 150gr. slug & 15gr. was 3,000LUP higher than the same charge & bullet used with 3F.
With round balls, the 27.5gr. 4F pressure was only a couple hundred LUP over the 29gr. 3F GO load - .36 revolvers.
The 1860 Army's load was 37gr. of either C&H or GO 4F. The GO produced higher pressure but only slightly.
GO 3F in the .44 at 37gr. produced higher velocity and 200LUP more pressure than did the 4F GO powder.
The same slight drop in pressure with the 4F occurred in the .44's when using the 155gr. slugs, except the 4F produced slightly higher vel.
There are no FFFFG loads listed for any rifles, from .36 on up.
Only 2F was used in the shotguns.
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I think some context is needed, here.
I see (Lyman book) the 4F pressure given in the .36 handgun loaded with a 150gr. slug & 15gr. was 3,000LUP higher than the same charge & bullet used with 3F.
With round balls, the 27.5gr. 4F pressure was only a couple hundred LUP over the 29gr. 3F GO load - .36 revolvers.
The 1860 Army's load was 37gr. of either C&H or GO 4F. The GO produced higher pressure but only slightly.
GO 3F in the .44 at 37gr. produced higher velocity and 200LUP more pressure than did the 4F GO powder.
The same slight drop in pressure with the 4F occurred in the .44's when using the 155gr. slugs, except the 4F produced slightly higher vel.
There are no FFFFG loads listed for any rifles, from .36 on up.
Only 2F was used in the shotguns.
I wonder if ANY research was done beyond revolvers?Maybe pressure tests on rifle charges in bullet guns like Whitworths and Henrys are needed so we wkill know what is safe and what is not.I would think a muzzle loader
made from high quality matereal would have no problem.Tests with 40 grains of 4rg and a 500 grain bullet and the same bullet with 40 grains of 3fg the chronograph might show something.
Bob Roller
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I agree with those here in the “no” camp. I also have no doubt there are those who have, and do use 4f as a main powder charge. That said, just because you can, does not mean you should. Kinda like Russian roulette.
Ez
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If Goex stays down for good, and imported supplies keep being lethargic in getting to distributors, we may just end up seeing those with 4F powder doing some in depth experimenting.
Glad I got plenty of 1,2 & 3F on hand. I might even start using the Null-B powder as the prime like I one time planned to just to save few grains from the horn I've been using for priming.
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There are a lot of muzzle loaders around wirh barrels of questionable matereial and antiques with a drum and nipple that shouldn't be fired with anything.Tests are the only way to find out and I think Hungry Horse's comment about the powder being the same formula may be valid.There is only one way to find out.A test using a chronograph and incremental loads of 4fg and 3fg wirh balls or bullets of the same weight can give us all an idea as to what is safe and what is not.Barrel quality will also be tested as well.
Bob Roller
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I've been reading this thread with some interest. First let me say I agree don't do it. When I was young dumb indestructible and didn't know any better either. I also didn't know there was different granules of powder. I had an old mountain rifle handed down to me from my mom's family. I decided I wanted to shoot it. I started asking around about some powder an some guy gave me a pint jar about half full of black powder. I loader er up went to shooting. Well some time later I was talkin to a guy that knew a little about shooting black powder guns and he informed me that I was using about three times more powder than I should. I adjusted the load down to where he told me to and shot some more. I started building muzzle loading rifles when I was 23 and still build occasionally. The powder the man gave me was 4ffff! I still have about half of that powder left. All this happened when I was about 15 and I still have the rifle and it has not been fired since.
Thanks and GOD Bless Doug B
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I've been reading this thread with some interest. First let me say I agree don't do it. When I was young dumb indestructible and didn't know any better either. I also didn't know there was different granules of powder. I had an old mountain rifle handed down to me from my mom's family. I decided I wanted to shoot it. I started asking around about some powder an some guy gave me a pint jar about half full of black powder. I loader er up went to shooting. Well some time later I was talkin to a guy that knew a little about shooting black powder guns and he informed me that I was using about three times more powder than I should.
Well, I can empathize with your youthful enthusiasm, devoid of common sense. Frankly, when I sit down and think about it, there are at least 20 incidents of varying kinds in my youth, that I was either VERY lucky to survive or flat out should not have survived. God truly does watch over drunks and fools. For a significant period, long ago, I was both. Now I’m just a 64 year old fool. But I can live with that…
Ez
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I had a few "exchanges" with that british fellow. Also I butted heads with a guy who only a few years ago posted all over the net. He was a proponent also of using 4f as the main charge. So one day I wrote an email to Goex about it. Here is the reply in full. You can make up your own mind about it. Me? Never have and never will.
From: >
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2019 3:03 AM
To: Help Account <Hpchelp@HODGDON.com>
Subject: New submission from Contact Us on IMRPowder.com
First Name
Ronald
Last Name
Lane
Email Address
Send us a Message
I am an old traditional flintlocker. I use 2fg and 3fg Goex for my main charges and 4fg Goex to prime my pans.
However an increasing amount of younger shooters wish to try 4fg as the main charge citing a lack of testing data showing there is a real danger of blowing up a gun.
Fact is, it's hard to successfully argue the point because I myself can find nothing definite against using 4fg as a main charge.
Do you have any data that you are willing to share with me to help me convince some of these shooters against the use of 4fg as a main charge?
Thank you,
Ronald Lane
Hello Ronald
Thank you for reaching out to us.
We appreciate your work and effort in passing along the traditions of muzzleloading to new shooters. We do not have pressure testing data for 4f powder. As you already know 4f should only be used for priming pans. If 4f were used as a main charge the pressures would be very high but the velocities would remain low, you would be gaining nothing and risking everything. A good point is to remind these young shooter what is at risk: eye sight , use of your hands, possibly death, the dangers are real.
Thank you again for your contribution to our youth and the tradition of muzzleloading.
Luke Otte
Technical support
6430 vista dr.
Shawnee, Ks 66218
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This letter to me is contradictory.It states that NO test were made using 4fg as a main charge so how can that be stated as an absolute??I am sure in a barrel made of quality material like McLemore or GM would easily handle it.Antiques are another thing and a lot of them are wall hangers only.Just HOW does a substance like black gun powder which is said to be a mechanical and not a chemical mixture change pressure so radically when the mixture is idntical in the manufacture of it? Pressures high and velocities low??
Let's see some REAL DATA and settle this forever and not rely on speculation and untested opinions.
Bob Roller
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AZ, be nice. That is research, whether it's good or bad is determined by careful evaluation. For my part, I would never load with 4F. Among other things, it's fine enough that you might end up self-priming when running a patched ball home.
Dave
I think there were self priming English flintlocks and they did NOT use any coarse granuled powders.
Bob Roller
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About 20 years ago I had one of the powder sales men explain it to me that the pressure from 4f was about the same as other granulations but it got to peak pressure faster which he claimed was the real danger. :-\
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I don't know if anyone else ever noticed this but I've got one horn I've been using for 3f for a couple years. It's never gone completely empty before I'd refill it. I finally emptied it a couple weeks ago working on .45 loads. Those last few charges that came out of it were FINE....about like 4f . It seemed to crack and kick a little more when shot as well.
After I noticed that I thought of our spice grinder. Whenever I grind something in it the bigger pieces always stay at the top and the fine stuff sits on the bottom.
No real point to this really.I just remembered it reading through this thread.
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I think there were self priming English flintlocks and they did NOT use any coarse granulated powders.
Bob Roller
Seems to me C&H #6 sporting powder was quite fine - about like 3F. That was supposed to be the best of the powders
in use at that time(late 1800's). Earlier during the flint period, I've no idea what the powder looked like. I still recall the
blown up rifle pictured in Greener's "The Gun and it's Development", blown up with "fine" powder that "detonated" rather
then burned.
A perusal of Lyman's old handbook will show "like" charges of 3F and 2F giving much different pressures, Smylee G.
Also, if you look at the .58 cal. data comparing the 70's C&H 3F or 2F against GO 2F and 3F- quite interesting in itself,
as-are the charges listed as maximums. :D
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Thanks form that pressure info Daryl. When the powder sales man told me the pressure was "about the same" I took it with a grain of salt. When we compare burn rates of the different granulations of powders we can note the difference in recoil when shooting same charges of 2f over 3f as the 3f spikes or peaks faster and seems to create more recoil IMHO.
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Sorry Smylee - I was wrong, :-[ - Lyman's data only shows GO 2F and C&H 3F. The relationships between both of those 2 makes of powder are
quite interesting though, as well as the different pressures generated depending on the projectile used. Seems they put a "Zouave" barrel of
different lengths in a Universal Receiver for the pressure & velocity testing. The relationship of powder charge to velocity is also interesting.
Note the differing velocities in short barrels, 24, 26 and 28" lengths with the differing powder charges up to 190gr. & the rates of increase of
speeds. Interesting indeed. ;)
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This letter to me is contradictory.It states that NO test were made using 4fg as a main charge so how can that be stated as an absolute??I am sure in a barrel made of quality material like McLemore or GM would easily handle it.Antiques are another thing and a lot of them are wall hangers only.Just HOW does a substance like black gun powder which is said to be a mechanical and not a chemical mixture change pressure so radically when the mixture is idntical in the manufacture of it? Pressures high and velocities low??
Let's see some REAL DATA and settle this forever and not rely on speculation and untested opinions.
Bob Roller
Bob, if I could find any real data I'd gladly post it. But I could not, even though I suspect something must be out there somewhere. Perhaps it's old and moldy gathering dust in a british castle.
So, I wrote the maker of Goex thinking they surely had some data. Turns out they don't.
That email reply actually tells me nothing at all.
Good luck searching for some real data.
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Looking at just one brand of powder.
Grain size has an influence on what sort of pressure curve you are going to see in the black powder gun.
Going back to 1838 the black powder industry in the U.S. was then going to what we might call today our standard sizes. That is when du Pont copyrighted the "Superfine".
The grains sizes were set up on a mathmatical rule. 2F powder is half the size of 1 F powder. For the same weight the 2F powder will have about 1.45 times more grain surface area which makes that charge burn in a shorter time than the 1f. The 3F powder is half the size of 2F powder. So with equal weights it will have about 1.45 times more surface area than the same weight of 2f. So with equal weights the 3f will burn in a shorter time than the 2f.
At one time the 4f powder was a specific grain size range that would be half the average size of the 3f. But that was no longer the case with the Moosic, PA GOEX 4F I used in my flinters and looked at closely in the lab. The 4F out of Moosic was simply powder sifter tailings going way down in size.
You have a delay in the start of the projectile up the bore when you ignite the charge of powder. Resistance to being accelerated and resistance to be turned by rifling. So the more rapid burning of the powder charge and projectile resistance will effect pressures behind the projectile. Increasing pressures do not translate directly to the rate at which the projectile accelerates up the bore.
Some time do some calculations. Calculate the square inches of the projectile the gasses are working on. That is you bore diameter which when calculated at working rear surface are of the projectile on which the pressure is applied is well under 1 square inch. You are not getting the full pressure pushing the projectile. The pressure on the projectile is only a fraction of the pressure that would be shown on a gauge.
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I see a lot of references to some sort of “tests” that prove it unsafe ( mentioned in this thread and throughout the internet). What I don’t see is the actual test. Nobody has a valid study where 3F was safe but 4F wasn’t. Furthermore, there are numerous videos and photos of black powder guns that were destroyed with smokeless powder. Why aren’t there any showing detrimental results of using 4F? There are 3 or 4 current, active black powder shooters that use 4F as a main charge in a variety of arms. Unless they are each a bold-faced liar, they seem to be getting along good with 4F. A few years back I inquired directly from a manufacturer. While the lady said “ follow the recommendations from the gun maker “ , she also said 4F “probably wouldn’t be a problem” but she couldn’t recommend it. Well if the manufacturer knew it was dangerous or was going to blow up my gun I think her response would have been a lot stronger. The 4F can has no warning about using it as a main charge. I have plenty of 3F that I use as a main charge in everything I have that burns black powder. People will tell you that is wrong and I need 2F for my big bored and smoothbores. Personally, if I only have 4F I am going to work up a load until I achieve accuracy and “power” suitable for the task. Do what you think is best. I’m not making a recommendation to you. I am hoping you apply a large dose of logic to make your own decision.
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I figure 4F should be fine in small caliber rifles and the small caliber revolvers. But it is a bit like the guy who asked if he could eat a particular mushroom. "You certainly can", he was assured, "once". ???