AmericanLongRifles Forums
General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: davec2 on October 09, 2021, 02:48:58 AM
-
I really need another project like I need another root canal......nonetheless, I have begun a refurbishment of the full size cannon I built 50 years ago when I was a junior in high school. Don't ask me why after 50 years I have to do this now, but there are some issues with the gun that have bothered me for 50 years and if i don't get to correcting them now....well.....i don't need to explain any of that to this crowd. Moderators, I think this fits under the category of "gun building" but if it belongs elsewhere, please move it.
So, many of you have seen these pictures before, but here is the cannon again for those who may not have seen it.......
(https://i.ibb.co/TTcMQFc/Cannon-Shoot-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rtk2B1k)
(https://i.ibb.co/Bs3R0Py/Cannon-Shoot-3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QmQGycP)
One of the things that has always bothered me was that there is a very slight step in the bore about half way down. Now the nominal bore is 2.75 inches and the step is about 0.005 inches on a radius which amounts to about 0.36% of the bore diameter. For a cannon, this isn't bad and since I use cannon balls that have about 0.050" windage, the step never really mattered. However, several years ago now, I went back to Pennsylvania to see Ray Rapine about purchasing his bullet mold business. (Another story). During the course of our conversations, Ray also had a full scale mountain howitzer with a 3 inch bore that he was selling. Hanging on the wall behind the gun was a target with several 3 inch holes cleanly punched in a 36 inch diameter black bulls eye painted on 1/4" plywood. He told me he had shot that target at 600 yards with the howitzer. I looked to see if it was rifled and it was not. I asked him how he could get that kind of accuracy with a smooth bore. Ray told me the bore in the gun was very good and that he had made a custom mold to cast zinc round ball that only had 0.003" windage on the diameter of the ball rather than the usual 0.050" or so. Then he said, "There wasn't much wind that day. Of course wind don't matter much to a 4 pound ball." Then he winked. Ever since I have wanted to get that slight step out of the bore of my cannon and then modify my ball mold to cast a much tighter ball. There are several other things I want to improve about the cannon (I know a lot more about how things should be now than I did when I was 17 in 1970), but I wanted to start with the bore.
So here is the 6 foot long reamer that I just finished to clean up the bore. I have to make a muzzle guide yet but when that's done, I should be able to clean up the full length of the bore.
(https://i.ibb.co/VBGGQ2q/Bore-reamer-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bdVV2zK)
(https://i.ibb.co/qg6xJ13/Bore-reamer-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/095QsJR)
(https://i.ibb.co/pQpjgMP/Bore-reamer-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bFn5xC3)
(https://i.ibb.co/W23YwtR/Cannon-Bore.jpg) (https://ibb.co/71z6540)
More on the project as this progresses.....
-
This is starting out to be a really cool thread. :)
-
Oh yeah this’ll be a cool thread. Y’all find a seat. I’m making the popcorn. Go Dave go.
-
The reamer itself is impressive. I can't imagine turning that by hand I can see that handle getting longer.
Tim
-
That is an impressive reamer, Dave. Are you sure the pilot is long enough?
That was impressive shooting indeed.
-
The original plan was to have a pilot in front of the reamer. However, the bore for the fist 20 or so inches is line to line with the 2.750" shell reamer. As a consequence, the reamer will go that far down the bore without needing a forward pilot. But it does need the guide I am machining for the muzzle that will support the reamer shaft as I work the reamer down through the last portion of the bore. I have toyed with the idea of opening the bore to a full 3 inches in a similar manner. In that case I would need the forward end pilot to start.
However, in a moment of sanity, I realized that there is no true "need" for the gun to have a 3 inch bore vs a 2.75" bore.....and if I did take it out to 3 inches, it would cost even more per round for powder and shot (and it's fairly expensive as is. Even a light load is 1/3 pound of powder and about $12 worth of cannon ball) !!!!
-
This is starting out to be a really cool thread. :)
Oh yes. How cool is it that you just back that baby up to the “shooting range” and light her off?!
Ez
-
That reamer HAD to cost some serious bucks.
-
Wow! The quest for accuracy in round balls, regardless of size, is a passion. Have you considered some micro rifling? Or a rifled sleeve?
Nice work on the reamer. The handle may be too short for that pitch,
I have every confidence you will get it done.
-
What about a delrin or teflon muzzle guide?
Brass would also work, I guess.
-
Heinz,
Haven't given much though to rifling. Way back when I tried to patch a cannon ball with a greased rag, I couldn't even get it more than a few inches into the bore. Had to blow it out with compressed air just to clear the bore. Without the complexity of making projectiles that engage the rifling mechanically (i.e.lugs on the projectile that mate up to the rifling), or casting projectiles with a lead skirt (like a Minnie ball) it all seemed too much work. After all, it has taken me 50 years to just advance to the point of trying to ream the bore and cast a closer fitting ball. :o And yes, I am not entirely sure I can hand ream the bore, but the barrel is cast iron (which cuts fairly easily) and I don't have to take too big a bite at a time....I'll keep you posted, but wish me luck.
Daryl,
Yes, any of those materials would work as a muzzle guide to keep the reamed shaft concentric with the bore. I have a piece of 4 inch diameter scrap aluminum round stock, so I think I'll give that a try first.
-
Dave, I have recently become the curious owner of a 1" bore swivel gun, so I will be following with interest.
Dave
-
There used to be an outfit in Michigan, if I remember right, that made rifled barrel liners for Parrot cannons and claimed the liner was strong enough to fire as a stand alone.
Robby
-
I am thinking that you will need a carriage to support the wild end of the reamer shaft. With your muzzle pilot to guide the front, you will not have support on the other end while you are trying to turn the reamer. I suppose you have considered how you are going to hold on to such a large contraption and still be able to rotate it with that long handle??? Best of luck to your endeavors. ;)
-
I don't mean to be negative, but I don't think that reamer will work by hand. I think you need to drill the bore to within ? .100" & then ream it. If it is a very big bite at all, you won't be able to turn it & then also it is going to wedge in & pull in & wedge tighter. I think you will need a stop on the shaft & cut a couple thousands, back the stop off the shaft a couple thousand more, repeat, etc.
I have a rifling machine & accesseries (bore reamers & etc ). Haven't messed with the rifling machine much (life keeps getting in the way) but I have used the barrel bore reamers a couple times. Boy you jam a .50 cal reamer, it is
a sumbuck to get to back out. Thus I imagine a 2.75" one may be impossible to get out if one is not careful.
-
Flinchrocket,
The free end of the reamer shaft will be supported by a muzzle guide....we'll see how this all works out.
D. Keith,
I don't take your comment as negative at all. I have never done anything like this before so it's all a gamble. The more advice I get up front the better off I am. I did provide the option of being able to slide hammer the reamer back out of the bore if it gets stuck !!!! The bore is only constricted by ~ 0.005" on a radius, so I only have to remove 0.010" on the diameter. The forward end of the shell reamer will do 90% of the cutting over a very short length......so.....I might get away with this. If not I'll come up with Plan B. Like the Marines say, "Improvise.....Adapt.....Overcome" !!
Thanks
-
I have chambered quite a few rifle barrels by hand. Every one of them turned put very close to perfect. I would have preferred to see more of an angle on the leading edge of the
reamer, but with only .005" to cut out per side, likely it will go just fine, given a well fitting and lubed guide.
-
Well, I suppose you could trickle some 4f into the flash hole to pop out a stuck reamer! ;D
-
This is a most interesting project.
Considering the diameter of the reamer, I think a .005" cut should be doable.
You are likely aware of this, but on the off chance you are not - one should never reverse the direction of rotation when reaming or extracting a reamer. Reverse rotation can result in a chipped or wedged reamer.
-
Oh lord no, you reverse it & all that you just cut out wads up in behind the cutters & you will need
the largest bottle of caster oil you ever saw to get it out. :o ;D ;D ;D You really Might have to shoot
it out.
One would think it be like reversing a drill ? oh heck no. You back that bugger up & Heck
will Not be one of the words coming out of yer mouth ;D ;D ;D In fact, may be some words
that come out of there none of us even know ;D ;D ;D
-
After forty years of tool and die work, I can tell you that the muzzle guide will be the most important part of this operation. The dia of the reamer compared the cutting length will necessitate the very careful alignment
of the whole set-up.
I don't think the actual turning force will be that great. Like others have said, The .005 is not much for a cutter that size.
Regards,
DGB
-
Bluenoser & D. Keith.....thanks for the heads up about not reversing the rotation. No....I did not know that and I'm glad you said something before I got into trouble.
DGB....yes, I will machine the muzzle guide to as close a tolerance as I can and still allow the reamer shaft to rotate freely. And I am hoping my original assumption that I can turn the reamer by hand for this job is correct, so I appreciate your thought that the turning force might not be too great to do this by hand. If it is, I have a fall back method.
Thanks again
-
Have you considered perhaps reaming it vertically? I don't know how much effect the considerable amount of weight in the reamer and handle would have in causing the reamer to "drift" if using it horizontally, but if it were vertical you could rig some pulleys and a counterweight to control feed pressure and gravity might help with reaming concentrically down the bore. You might even be able to rig a gravity flow for lubricant with it running out the touch hole. Of course, as you approached the breach you'd have to pull the reamer and remove the shavings.
Or, I could be completely out in left field....
Eric
-
Eric,
Thanks for the note. Yes, my fall back option is to pull the barrel off the carriage and set it up vertically in a frame to do the reaming......so you are no further out in left field than I am ;) :)
-
Word of caution - clean the reamer often of chips. Always turning to the right as it is removed.
A good oil might help with the cutting, rather than a true thin cutting fluid. I had better progress with
the new (oilier seems to me) Rapid Tap than with the older stuff or anything else. WD40 actually worked
fairly well, too.
-
OK....I finally had the time to make the bore guide for the reamer. Here it is on the lathe in process. I neglected to take a picture of the finished guide but will as I set it up for the reaming operation.
(https://i.ibb.co/DKBMJbz/IMG-3503.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kcLD7y5)
(https://i.ibb.co/dBR5fKc/IMG-3504.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BL9CfsP)
-
Dave,
The muzzle guide is looking good.
I was wondering if the nose pilot is a close fit in the lower part of the bore and will it want to pull the reamer off center from the first 20 inches that are good? I guess you might be able to feel if the reamer is trying to get off course.
I think that if the reamer already is a good fit in the first part, the reamer itself should hold itself on course as it enters the off center portion.
Keep us in the loop and have at it.
Regards, DGB
-
Had a chance to try hand reaming a 2.75 inch bore today :o
Here is the finished muzzle guide......
(https://i.ibb.co/2MJPGfq/IMG-3505.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HPZY5k7)
And installed in the cannon muzzle......
(https://i.ibb.co/qDd01Vg/IMG-3507.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CwzJ0D9)
Reamer in place for the start of the first trial run......
(https://i.ibb.co/zQ2frnf/IMG-3508.jpg) (https://ibb.co/34Fh7rh)
First batch of chips pushing ahead of the reamer !!!!
(https://i.ibb.co/T8Pb3jR/IMG-3509.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WyBPJ8F)
It takes about 10 minutes of hard pushing and twisting to ream about 2 inches of linear bore length. I made a gage and I think I am taking out about 0.015 on a radius or 0.030 on the diameter, which is more metal than I thought I would have to remove. I made about 6 inches of progress down the bore in three, 10 minute runs before my arms gave out. I detached a bicep tendon in my right arm 2 years ago that could not be repaired, so my right arm is fairly weak. If I had pulled the barrel off the carriage and stood it vertically, I could have weighted the reamer shaft and just turned the handle. But the barrel weighs nearly 600 pounds, so getting it off the carriage and building a vertical cradle is another project in itself. I think I have a way to apply a spring around the reamer shaft to apply tool pressure while I just turn the handle. And if I don't do all of that, in short increments, I can finish by hand. At the current rate of advance down the bore, it would take me another hour and twenty minutes of pushing and turning, so....not bad.... if I do it in increments of 10 to 20 minutes a day. The cut appears smooth and even and the bore gage indicates a nice straight cut. So far so good :) ;)
-
I wonder if you could rent a pipe threader to turn the reamer. The treader is basicaly a crude head stock on a tripod and has lots of torque. Put it on a dolly and push it.
-
In my opinion for what it's worth I would think you need to stick with the reaming by hand method for the "feel" of the reamer especially since this is the maiden voyage for this operation. Looking good so far and good luck.
-
Joey,
I think I will try the spring arrangement just to apply tool force, but will continue to operate the reamer by hand so I can feel the cutting. I like Clint's idea but think I would spend a lot of time and effort trying to get the machine aligned with the bore and then pushing is what I am having trouble with. It takes a lot of "push" to get the reamer to advance very fast.
-
Slow and easy will get you where you want to go. Doing great, Davec2.
-
Dave
You have any neighborhood kids that need a little mentoring? A few buddy's that are willing to help?
Fleener
-
Dave
You have any neighborhood kids that need a little mentoring? A few buddy's that are willing to help?
Fleener
Sounds like the makings for a Tom Sawyer tale.
Tim C.
-
A side benefit of reaming by hand, you’ll have forearms like Popeye
Continued success!
-
Awesome! I did not realize the scale of that handle in the first picture you posted. That handle is certainly big enough. Going a Half a foot a day without and apprentice is pretty good. I like the spring idea.
-
A side benefit of reaming by hand, you’ll have forearms like Popeye
Continued success!
THAT'S what happened to me, I swear. It's a good thing, Dave. ;D
-
Dave, could you make a rotating pad that fits onto/into the back end of your rod? You could push on it with your torso, and rotate with your hands. It might take some load off your arms? Just thinking out loud. God Bless, Marc
-
Looking good
Think local football team defensive line, pizza and soda after the reaming is finished 😉
-
Here are the first two parts for the spring arrangement to advance the reamer while I turn the handle, the spring and the movable spring stop. The spring rate is ~104 pounds per inch of compression, so it should be more than enough to force the reamer into the cut without me having to push. I'm sure I was not applying more than 40 or 50 pounds of force when I was struggling to cut a few inches. The rest of the arrangement is a clap trap of all-thread rods and lumber. I didn't want to spend too much time and effort making a sophisticated rig....I don't think I will be doing this type of work more than once in a lifetime. :o
I'll take more pictures when I have it all put together and fins out if it works. ??
(https://i.ibb.co/z2YnqTs/IMG-3515.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R6mvRk2)
-
Hmmmm.... Looks like a nuclear submarine's drivetrain. ;-)
-
Ok....I know this all looks kind of "clugy" but it works !!!! I just tighten the all-thread rods to apply spring pressure to the reamer shaft and then turn the handle !!! Not a lot faster than the hand push method, but a heck of of lot easier on my shoulders !!!
(https://i.ibb.co/TMry627/IMG-3517.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SwJSbyM)
(https://i.ibb.co/n1MQJts/IMG-3518.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5jhsHwW)
(https://i.ibb.co/myFpbDG/IMG-3516.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qgF67yd)
-
Looks like it will work fine, Dave. Although chances are, the users of the cannon back in the day would be really scratching their heads!
What is the little "dog" cart under your apparatus?
-
Pretty cool set up!!! Will you hone it after reaming?
Robby
-
Craig,
Some of the rigs I've seen in the literature on how huge guns were cast and bored in past centuries were a heck of a lot crazier than this drip and tinkle rig. When I built this gun 50 years ago, I was intending to cast the gun myself in a pit in the back yard and then set up a boring rig using the weight of the gun to apply pressure to the tool. Glad I had an attack of sanity and just worked odd jobs until i could buy the barrel from Barney's Cannons in South Bend IN. !! And the cart under the tarp is this .......
(https://i.ibb.co/9hXD2Bk/IMG-3522.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jzKNGqP)
My folks bought this small replica John Deere wagon for my oldest daughter 30 years ago. I used to drag the two girls all over the neighborhood with it when they were tiny. My wife uses it for decorating now....
Robby,
I won't be "honing" in the sense of getting the bore perfect in size and surface finish, but I will be using one of these to smooth things up a little better.......
(https://i.ibb.co/xDBr3Fn/IMG-3523.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t4v13L0)
-
Luckily for me this thread was as far advanced as it is. I was initially pleased to prepare some popcorn myself but the thread progressed at a rapid rate for me. Thank you. I was a plumber for forty years and have had my first operation for a torn rotator cuff yesterday, 10/19/21. Please be gentle on your shoulders they are far too valuable to mess up. $43,000 for a fixer upper shoulder. Let's not talk about the pain! Terrific thread.
-
Red River,
I understand completely !!!! I made the spring thing not because it was any better than doing it by hand but because I have realized that I simply cannot do the things I did 20 or 30 years ago without hurting myself. As Clint Eastwood said in one of his movies, "A man's got to know his limitations".
-
Dave, your smoothing tool looks like Canister or Grape Shot. 🙂 Very appropriate.
-
Yeah - small grape - LOL - those things work quite well, if you keep them moving.
-
Well, another project completed. I finished the reaming of the bore today all the way to the breech and then did some honing to polish up the bore surface some. The spring assist was a huge help. I could only compress the spring about 3/4" at a time to keep the tool force low enough for me to hand turn the "T" handle. The length of the spring would allow me to compress it over 5 inches but the tool force would be more that 700 pounds if I did. So I just used the all-thread to compress the spring 3/4", turns the handle until I had advanced that far, compress the spring 3/4" again, turn the handle, etc., etc.., until I inched my way all the way to the breech. Took a while but it was not hard to do....and a heck of a lot easier than trying to wrestling 600 pounds of barrel onto a lathe...and I don't have one that big. So this was a good way to do the job fairly easily and inexpensively.
This doesn't look like the bore of a new Browning 12 gage, but for a cast iron cannon bore it looks fantastic. And the best part is that it is a constant diameter now (2.752") from muzzle to breech. I will rework the ball mold to put out a cannon ball 2.747" diameter now. This should improve accuracy considerably.
This is not the greatest picture but you can tell that the bore is good......
(https://i.ibb.co/kX34Hdk/IMG-3569.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rHbx7WT)
I will start another thread but I wanted to ask if any of you have purchased and use a Teslong bore scope......
-
That bore looks amazing to me, Dave. Well done. 8)
-
Daryl.....slightly better picture of the bore. And yes, it really looks great to me.
(https://i.ibb.co/R2DNRGm/image-50367489.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sjVC8pG)
And here is the ball mold that I need to rework now to better match the cleaned up bore......
(https://i.ibb.co/cYGXZDk/image-50352897.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0sgV6hm)
(https://i.ibb.co/4gm6RNx/image-50332417.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bRWS5dn)
(https://i.ibb.co/W6MmDCr/image-50425857.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NsJc1R0)
And here is a new, better fitting worm for the gun as well......
(https://i.ibb.co/6PhtLYh/image-55415491.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z8sg7ds)
-
Dave, heartiest congrats on a job well done! I will let you bore any cannons I find laying around.
It really is amazing how smooth you got it, and no ridge between the original bore and what you've done. Are you using aluminum or lead balls?
thanks for the info on the little cart - looks as though you could use a pair of dogs to tow it around. Until a strange dog comes onto the scene...
-
Craig,
Thanks. This worked out better than I had hoped. I cast the round shot out of zinc. Fairly easy to melt and cast and very close to the same density as cast iron.......
(https://i.ibb.co/8PzvzQN/Cannon-Ball-Mold-5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3Sf6fP4)
(https://i.ibb.co/q5WjX56/Cannon-Ball-Mold-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JQyt0QZ)
-
The bore looks Great, I would have never expected it to be so smooth looking, Excellent job. You work fast, if I figured right all this in 13 days. How much does the ball weigh?
Tim
-
Food for thought, Dave. We (& others) did fairly well with cloth/patched balls in the cannon's we used at Rendezvous, from 1 1/2" bore to 3".
I know it isn't period correct, but we were more interested in accuracy, after all, it was a contest.
-
Tim - the ball in zinc weighs just short of 4 pounds (3.86). In iron, the same size ball would weigh 4.25 pounds. In lead it would be 6.13.
Daryl - many years ago I tried using a patch made out of a greased piece of an old wool blanket (the ball had about 0.050" of windage). I got the ball stuck part way down the bore and had to hammer is home. I haven't tried it again since, and if i make the ball mold only 0.005 under bore diameter, there won't be any room for a patch....unless I wrap the ball in wet silk...but then, that might work !
-
Great thread, and a very nice bore. I am reminded of an excursion my wife and I made with the kids about twenty years ago. We wanted to take the kids to the science museum in Boston, so we drove to Providence R.I. and took the train into Boston. We were early for the train, so we went into the state house which is very close by. Lots of interesting stuff in the building, among them is a 1860 vintage six pound field cannon. The gun received a direct hit from a twelve pound ball and the ball was stuck in the muzzle. How cool! A couple years later the gun was 'renovated and they x-rayed the barrel. The barrel had sat in the state house since the 1870's and was loaded with a six pound ball and a full combat charge of powder. I couldn't help but think of "dad" back in the 1950's posing with a lit cigarett by the touch hole.
-
Very nice. Very impressed with the entire project.
-
Thanks !! I'm kind of amazed it all worked as well as it did !!
-
Dave, I bought a Teslong bore scope a few weeks ago. It is the solid 28” model. I don’t have anything to compare it with. It’s not at the Rayleigh criterion but the resolution is very good. One thing I did was turn small plastic discs that friction fit on the bore scope tube and are about .010” under the bore diameter you wish to inspect. That “fix” keeps a constant focus as you wander down the bore. Well worth it...so far.
Cheers Richard
Regarding you cannon, I expect to see minute of barn door accuracy as the results of your “rebore”.