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General discussion => Gun Building => Topic started by: D. Keith Lisle on October 11, 2021, 11:27:50 AM

Title: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: D. Keith Lisle on October 11, 2021, 11:27:50 AM
I have a Joe Manton lock casting set from The Rifle Shoppe. After receiving g it,
I realized it is way past a assembly, and needs a Real lock builder, which I am not.
Most lock guys building for lock companies want to stay with what they are making
& I understand that.

I want someone that Knows what he/she is doing, as I can easily ruin it by myself.

Is this someone’s “cup of tea”, so to speak, on here ?

Thanks

Keith
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: little joe on October 11, 2021, 11:48:35 AM
Bob Roller Please step forward.
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: rick/pa on October 11, 2021, 12:16:00 PM
I don't know if this will help but here's a link to building a Manton lock, possibly the one you're talking about.

https://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/mantonlock/mantonlock.html
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Bob Roller on October 11, 2021, 02:25:05 PM
Bob Roller Please step forward.

25 years ago at age 60 I made two sets of these TRS locks and used my own mechanisms
but now at 85 I have no intention of doing this again.Last evening a friend called and offered
me $500 to make one more lock on the L&R Manton plate and I turned him down.He can easily
afford that price so the offer was valid.Good luck in your quest fot a lock maker.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: D. Keith Lisle on October 11, 2021, 03:14:40 PM
I knew you didn't want to mess with them, that's why I didn't ask.    ;)

But you  Were 1st on my list.

Regards

Keith

Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: deepcreekdale on October 11, 2021, 03:46:12 PM
PM sent
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Telgan on October 11, 2021, 07:19:49 PM
I don't want to mention any names - I'm afraid if I rat them out they will skin me alive .     .        .
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Clark Badgett on October 11, 2021, 07:24:18 PM
Sounds like subject that could use an in depth tutorial. I’ve got a couple of these advanced lock projects in the pipeline and it would be nice to not stumble along blindly, then again I’ve always learned best by just doing it.
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Majorjoel on October 11, 2021, 07:44:11 PM
I once thought that I could put a lock together from parts I attained indirectly from the late John Clark. It sure would have been a nice lock too!!!   Had I have asked for help like Keith is doing in this thread. 

I did however learn to appreciate all the work and dedication we have going today with our suppliers making better products than our colonial ancestors had!
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Bob Roller on October 11, 2021, 08:08:15 PM
Sounds like subject that could use an in depth tutorial. I’ve got a couple of these advanced lock projects in the pipeline and it would be nice to not stumble along blindly, then again I’ve always learned best by just doing it.

When the flimsiness of these parts is considered it will take more than a tutorial.IF someone made NEW mould masters to these configurations to compensate for shrinkage it would make for a better lock but the next to zero need or demand for fancy locks is also next to zero.Few if any American muzzle loaders are found with finely crafted locks including the venerated and beloved Hawken.I still haven't decided about making some "Hawken"
style locks with the 3 pin bridle like the last one I made in 2019.I know the purists won't approve of them but my decisions aren't based on that or them.
  The Clark lock was/is a fine one and I made several locks on his external parts and used a John Manton internal
parts pattern with the bridle that has 2 screws side by side and the sear on a precise screw with the threads imbeded below the surface of the plate.. I saw an original cased John Manton at Friendship along about 1970 and used it as a pattern for internal lock parts ever since.It is not a hard one to copy like some of the 3 and 4 screw styles found in later caplocks.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Joe Stein on October 11, 2021, 08:31:04 PM
You might want to give Cabin Creek Muzzleloaders a call. They have done some locks for people on this forum. I have seen their hand forged locks at Dixon's and they are very good.
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Rolf on October 11, 2021, 08:31:40 PM
I have castings for four manton pistol locks from Blackley, England. Two for duelers and two for a double barreled pistol.
The dimpels on the lockplates don't line up with the screw hole markings on the bridels. There are other minor flaws, mostly due to casting shrinkage. As far as I can see, the best solution is to use the cast "guts" as models and machine new parts that fit.
I still have alot to learn about lock building before I can attempt these projects.

Best regards
Rolf
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Bob Roller on October 11, 2021, 09:27:12 PM
To me,the idea of my reputation riding on the possible indifference of a foundry that
doesn't share my ideas about quality control is frightening.The plates,cocks,hammers
and frizzens seem to be useable but the LOCK is INSIDE the plate on any lock.It is the
engine under the hood and I won't risk my reputation on having these critical parts
made by some one else,not now or ever.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: deepcreekdale on October 12, 2021, 12:42:48 AM
When building locks from raw castings you should NEVER use the cast in dimples blindly to drill your holes. Sometimes they are correct, often they are not. With TRS castings, which in my view are excellent and a joy to work with, they fill the old holes, usually above the surface of the surrounding metal, probably with clay before making the master. As a result the holes are a big indistinct, so it is better to just file them smooth and take your own measurements. I have built many TRS locks, when properly made, they are among the best sparking locks available. It also helps to follow their directions  on heat treating , and not the way old Gomer at the local  auto parts store says to do it.
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Bob Roller on October 12, 2021, 01:22:36 AM
They must have improved the moulds because the external parts I had for
Manton locks required a lot of cleaning up and required straightening.That
was years ago and I recall a 9 month waiting time.At this point in my life
I don't care who's making what or what is being used.I think the external
parts of the 3 different L&R locks I used were really good and I have had
no problem at all in using them.I still have a semi finished lock that I MIGHT
complete and sell.It is the one that was called "Ashmore"and has a round tail
plate.I am glad you have had success with these TRS parts.
I didn't try to use the witness marks in the plates and after getting them to a
useable condition I used my own drilling guides.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: smart dog on October 12, 2021, 01:41:25 AM
Hi Keith,
I would take it on but I have too much other work right now.  To do a Manton lock justice requires time because he made or had made for him the best flintlocks ever.  With his locks, it is not easy to swap out internal cast parts because you may not find their match unless you machine them yourself.  Does this one have a sliding safety bolt?

dave

PS Someone mentioned Brad Emig.  He might be a good choice to try.

dave
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: deepcreekdale on October 12, 2021, 02:29:24 AM
They must have improved the moulds because the external parts I had for
Manton locks required a lot of cleaning up and required straightening.That
was years ago and I recall a 9 month waiting time.At this point in my life
I don't care who's making what or what is being used.I think the external
parts of the 3 different L&R locks I used were really good and I have had
no problem at all in using them.I still have a semi finished lock that I MIGHT
complete and sell.It is the one that was called "Ashmore"and has a round tail
plate.I am glad you have had success with these TRS parts.
I didn't try to use the witness marks in the plates and after getting them to a
useable condition I used my own drilling guides.
Bob Roller

You are correct, they do need cleaning up and usually straightening. But, the actual casting surface is usually pretty good. Considering their very reasonable price and the fact they have hundreds of locks available to order, I am a fan. As far as waiting, I have always found them accurate on the delivery date for castings, (I think if you order one built by Jess, it might take MUCH longer) But, I waited over a year once for one of Chambers early Jaeger locks, and they told me that when I ordered it. All these companies are at the mercy of foundries and these are small runs even for the largest lock makers. If you want to make something other than another generic Pennsylvania or SMR, TRS is about the only game in town. They are fun projects but you do need at least a lathe, drill press and a good set of reamers, an acetylene torch and a heat treatment oven.
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Roger B on October 13, 2021, 02:50:31 AM
I had Brad Emig tune a pretty miserable flintlock (manufacturer unnamed) for me a couple of weeks ago & it came back as a real champ. Im a believer in Cabin Creek.
Roger B.
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Bob Roller on October 13, 2021, 03:05:47 PM
This thread has revived an OLD memory of making a lock from some castings made in England that were
fine,cleanly done and straight.I don't remember who I made it for but it was a Manton style and I made
all the innards for it.Probably 50 years ago or longer.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: mikeyfirelock on October 13, 2021, 11:06:44 PM
Just came in from shop and had read this thread previously today.    I picked up my 1989 copy of Gunsmithing tips and projects [ Wolfe Publishing……there I gave credit}.    And notoced an article by John Bivins ………Precision Assembly of Lock Kits…..thought this might be of interest to those reading this thread..  It details the assembly of a Siler kit by Monte Mandarino in their shop.   very informative .   I believe this book is still available in a much newer edition.
Mikeyfirelock
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: David Rase on October 14, 2021, 09:09:04 PM
I am currently assembling a small doglock (3" x 5/8" plate with a 3/4" cock throw) from Chris Hirsch.  Beautiful castings that fit good and clean up easily.  Building this lock will be enough for me for at least a year.  The sad part is that I have no use for this lock but it was way high on the cool factor and it looked like a challenge. 
David
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Ezra on October 14, 2021, 09:59:55 PM
You might want to give Cabin Creek Muzzleloaders a call. They have done some locks for people on this forum. I have seen their hand forged locks at Dixon's and they are very good.

I second this.  Brad Emig and his son Shane are first rate.  I have had many flintlock made and repaired by them.  (717) 757-5841.  They are located in Hellam, Pennsylvania.

Ez
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: D. Keith Lisle on October 15, 2021, 04:10:18 AM
Hi Keith,
I would take it on but I have too much other work right now.  To do a Manton lock justice requires time because he made or had made for him the best flintlocks ever.  With his locks, it is not easy to swap out internal cast parts because you may not find their match unless you machine them yourself.  Does this one have a sliding safety bolt?

dave

PS Someone mentioned Brad Emig.  He might be a good choice to try.

dave

Yes, it is the one with the sliding safety.  I really like the lock.  Don’t know what to put it
on though. First one I saw was on a halfstock. But I would want it on a fullstock. Ever since
I saw this I have wanted this style lock on a fullstock.



(https://i.ibb.co/sjgsxd8/BD130032-A89-D-4-A27-B52-B-C2-FD5119-FE92.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b16NwMc)
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Bob Roller on October 15, 2021, 06:22:52 PM
Beautiful high end lock but at this point in my career it is now way too labor intensive for me ro even think about making and I do hope there is someone who will tackle it.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: D. Keith Lisle on October 15, 2021, 11:07:07 PM
Oh, I don’t expect it to be engraved. I just want to get the lock built & reliable.
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Clint on October 16, 2021, 03:24:46 AM
I just checked out your website and I am going to say that there is no reason that you shouldn't build this lock ,yourself The critical aspect of lock building is drilling holes to 90 degrees to the lock plate. a good drill press is vital. Get some #4 screw blanks from brownells (which are slightly oversize) and give it a try. I am currently writing instructions on how to assembly a flint lock, but it is time consuming to photo and gate projects keep getting in the way. Start with the frizzen and work back. PM me for photos
Clint
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: D. Keith Lisle on October 16, 2021, 03:54:29 AM
Well, I think i could most likely do it. May not spark tho ?  >:( ;D ;D ;D
But it is not a cheap lock & I don't want to screw up something I have to wait 6 mo on
part to replace.
Now if it were a Siler or something with readily avail parts, I could just call Jim & say,
"Hey, I need another tumbler", whole dif ball game. 

I'm not sure I have the patience to build it. Oh I have honed & polished & slicked up allot
of them, but not built one from start to finish.  What would really be bad is if I find I LIKE
doing it  !  :o  I have absolutely No Room for another hobby.   

But I have decided before I do anything on this lock, I have to find a Fitting rifle for it. 

I knew Bob was about done building locks.  But didn't know if anyone else on here did or not.

Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Clark Badgett on October 16, 2021, 04:13:58 AM
Most of the parts I can figure out the proper placement. However, I am having a hard time visualizing how timing the cock is done.
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: rich pierce on October 16, 2021, 12:59:11 PM
Tutorials
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=41684.0



https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=6913.0
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Bob Roller on October 16, 2021, 02:36:24 PM
These are good tutorials and give the builder the advantage of preformed parts.
I never tried this with the mechanism that IS the lock and always worked from
solid materials.This will give anyone a real idea about MAKING a lock or anything
else from steel.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Bob Roller on October 16, 2021, 03:06:44 PM
Most of the parts I can figure out the proper placement. However, I am having a hard time visualizing how timing the cock is BobB
done.
TIMING the cock? I have no idea what that is.In most locks there are 2 internal springs and a rotating part called a tumbler,a lid called a bridle and a latch called the sear.The mechanism makes only semi circular movements.It is fastened by screws.What needs timed?
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: rich pierce on October 16, 2021, 05:28:19 PM
Timing the cock likely means setting the cock on the tumbler - filing the square shaft for the cock - so that at rest the mainspring hook is right at the toe of the tumbler for maximum leverage.
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Bob Roller on October 16, 2021, 09:31:35 PM
Timing the cock likely means setting the cock on the tumbler - filing the square shaft for the cock - so that at rest the mainspring hook is right at the toe of the tumbler for maximum leverage.

USUALLY on these cast parts the tumbler has flats that can be cleaned with a safe edged flat file and the cock will have a noticeable witness area as well.If neither are there then I have no ideas of any benefit.
Bob Roller

17 Oct,2021
This lock uses a linked main spring so it will have to be in place in the lock to position the cock on the tumbler shank.That means the bridle and tumbler will have to be in position as in final assembly.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: D. Keith Lisle on October 16, 2021, 10:12:37 PM
To me, timing the Cock would be having the tumbler in the stopped position, & the Cock on the the stop position against the lockplate.   BUT...... I am not a lock builder, I just monkey with them now & then when I have issues with one. 
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Clint on October 17, 2021, 12:49:23 AM
The first thing to consider in 'timing' a flint cock is locating the the tumbler on the lock plate.  I like to drill the flintcock with a drill that will just let the cock screw slide through. Position the cock on the plate so that the shoulder is firmly on the plate bolster and the lower jaw is hovering just over the fence. There is usually a 'shadow' of some sort on the plate casting If you reach through the cock screw hole with a small scribe and mark the plate, you should see a mark that is very close to the tumbler hole shadow. Assuming that the tumbler is cleaned up ant the two journals are in line, drill ever so slightly smaller for the tumbler shaft.Ream the hole until the tumbler almost fits and finish the fit up with fine valve grinding compound. put the tumbler through the plate and screw the cock to the surface of the tumbler. Put the cock at the down position and adjust the tumbler so that the angle of the spring ramp is right around 45 degrees down. If you dare to make it steeper, the flintcock pull will be heavy, if the angle is too flat the spring may run into the bolster and prevent a full cock draw. Get it where it looks best and make a cup of coffee. Look at a lot of pictures and when every thing is cool, reach between the lock plate and the cock and mark the square drive with a small hook scribe. It's not hard. CW
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: D. Keith Lisle on October 17, 2021, 02:03:05 AM
To me it sounds like a PITA 🤣🤣🤣. No way I have patience to do all of that with every
part of the lock. 🤷🏻
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Daryl on October 17, 2021, 02:56:38 AM
To me, timing the Cock (it is called a Hammer) would be having the tumbler in the stopped position & the hammer in the stop position against the lockplate.   BUT...... I am not a lock builder, I just monkey with them now & then when I have issues with one.

I think you mean the frizzen is/was called the hammer, not the cock.
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: D. Keith Lisle on October 17, 2021, 03:25:04 AM
Yep 🙄. Went brain dead there for a moment. 🥴
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Bob Roller on October 17, 2021, 03:30:41 AM
The word 'frizzen" is said to be derived from the German word Fressen which goes to eating.
Shon zu fressen--Something to chew on.
Bob Roller
Title: Re: Do we have a Lock Builder on here
Post by: Bob Roller on October 17, 2021, 10:24:54 PM
I have examined a number of these exquisite locks in my work and almost all of them,if they were used cars were very "low mileage" and I have seen some with NO scrapes on the frizzen face and obviously unused.These were the play things of the wealthy and seldom fired if ever.The mechanisms look flimsy and I have doubts about the durability of them.Works of fine art for sure but how durable.The John Manton lock that I examined almost 52 years ago looked substantial to me and as Tom Dawson said,it was "all business and no frills".It was the one that I used in 3 sizes on all the flint locks I ever made from then on.No more slip and slide mainspring to tumbler but a link and two screws counterbored in the top of the bridle and the sear screw in addition to the head set in a shallower counter bore also was buried below the surface of the lock plate with a stub thread and the thrust of the mainspring is against the smooth shank of the screw and not on the tiny 4x40 threads.
This is a proven design and many of my locks are in competition in Europe if not here and I had no qualms about sending them to people who would use them as intended.
Bob Roller